very young student troubles

[ludwig]

Recently I got a couple of new students in pre-school to start piano (so they are about 4 years old). In the first couple of lessons I asked the parents to sit in on the lessons but found this to be a problem because the kids were relying on their parents to answer questions I've asked them, and often get distracted by the parents' comments on how they should listen and not move and spontaneously blurt out what they did in play group today or had for lunch...

So then I requested the parents to leave the kids with me just for a trial to see how behaved. I found that I could then encourage them to play better with less distractions, manage their focus and behavioural problems much better, without leaving this part to the parents, this gave me much more time in the lessons for actual playing.

However, the problem is that the parents don't ask the kids to do what I've done ith them in lessons, I write everything down on a log book for myself and their kids progress and homework in a book for them, and even explain after lessons to the parents what they should do at home, but they do not read it (the kids can't really read yet) and I'm finding no progress at home, the only improvements they achieve is in lesson time, and I know they are very capable because of the amount of stuff we get through during lessons.... What should i do?! It probably won't make a difference if the parents sat in on the lessons because they don't ask their kids to do anything at home anyways... I almost feel like giving up on younger students, because they do need quidance and a bit of pushing to do the work at home......


That's my first dilemma, the second is that these kids can't read yet, they have trouble memorizing note values and note names and I so wish their parents did SOMETHING at home to help them memorise what a crotchet, minim etc is and which note correspond to the letter names in the music. I find it very hard to use method books with them so I write lesson plans and activities for them myself, which works fine, except they don't revise them at home so they forget. The parents wants them to learn something they can play for relatives/school etc soon and I'm finding it hard to go by the music, so I have taught them 2 very short and simple pieces by ear and my imitating me on the keyboard.... However I have big doubts about learning piano this way..... is there anything I can do? 

[Bob]

Whoa!  These are four year olds? 

I'm not sure teaching them to read music is the best thing for them.  I wonder if they can keep a beat or even read printed words.

It may be an issue of development. 

From what I've seen, piano lessons for very young kids are much more about having fun, playing music games, singing... very different from traditional one on one piano lessons.  More like a movement and music games class.  I've heard group lessons are better for students this age.

I don't think one on one traditional piano lessons are going to be very helpful for a four year old.  The main thing is to expose them to music and get them to enjoy it.  A rhythm or general music style of class would probably be more appropriate.

Make a thread and see what people recommend for teaching kids this age.

Four year olds!  Wow... Let us know what happens.  I'm curious.

[lostinidlewonder]

I agree with Bob that you shouldn't really try to teach them reading if they can't really read words yet. The Suzuki method is perfect to teach youngsters with since it relies heavily on listening skills that everyone can practice. That would mean recording all the piece they have to learn and scales, excersises etc on a tape so they can listen to it all the time.

"Parrot" teaching works well with young kids I've found. Play something for them then ask them to reproduce it with your guidance eventually decreasing more and more as they repeat it. Yes it is tedious and boring for you maybe, but very important for them to develop the sound and basic coordination at the piano without having to spend hours trying to read it. Usually doing this for half a year produces a more confident youngster who can play stuff then is willing to stretch themselves more and start to learn to read notes.

As for not doing the work that you set you simply cannot enforce that. Every single music teacher has this problem. It is not your problem, the students have to make that commitment to work, but I do personally say to my students, do not bother to come back next week if you have nothing to show me. I don't say it that blunt, but along those lines so that I inspire some sort of fear for them to do work. I have only sent a student home once so far.

I don't get angry with students if they haven't done their work, nothing should be taken personally because this is work. Although a friendship can develop when you are teaching that must be thrown out the door while you are actually teaching. You have to be strict and to the point, you must get what you want achieved out of your student, push the work through them so that they will see results. Yes work is uncomfortable and makes you tired, but you are learning something! And I prove that by showing them that they can actually do what I asked them to do without my complete help.

There is a fine line however between doing that effectively or doing it too much and causing the student to breakdown and leave. You have to be hard if they haven't done what you set them, hard in the way that you will drill what they have neglected during the lesson until you see yourself the results. This is boring and can be upsetting for students if you dont say it with a smile and seem happy to go over it. I am so happy to go over 1 a bar of music 100 times because the student didnt work on it until they get it right. It makes the work for me 100 times easier, but still you wish they would do it so you could work on more important things, but that decision is left up to them, you cant force them, you can only say, look you havent done this, we cant go on if you havent done it, NO WORRIES! Lets do it now!

If this become routine and you must go over students homework EVERY lesson, then you must instill some sort of responsiblity on their shoulders. If that means BRIBERY so be it. Say, do bar 1-3 and you will get 1 star, if you get 5 stars you get a prize!!! I spend so much money on toys, pokemon cards, lollies etc etc, but it is funny how these things increase the rate of their learning. If that doesn't work you say to the child make sure the next lesson you have something to show me. And say the same thing to the parents without the children there to listen. I ask parents if they want their money's worth, if they want to just waste money for me to babysit their children and teach them things which they simply can learn themselves. Lots of parents don't understand what it means so i give them a crash course lesson on how the kids should do what i set them. It is clear, plain, simple, anyone can understand it, so if the parents now know about it and the children, and still nothing happens. Well you decide if you want to keep teaching kids what they can teach themselves or if you want to move on.

[nanabush]

That'd be so funny, their like What letter is this " A" then the kid's like I don't know, then they show an A on the staff and the Kid's like hey thats "A", sry I just laugh thinking about that, aaaaaaaaaa, kids...

[ludwig]

Thanks Bob and lostinidlewonder I think I might just stick to the listen and learn by ear technique I've been using for the past few months of lessons...  The thing is I teach in a music school and the parents want 1 on 1 lessons, I would love to teach keyboard classes for beginners, first to save time, second so that they have healthy competition, third so they are all interested to learn as a class, with "homework" and scheduled activities and group work...

I'm just a little worried about this aural learning, I have a student who learnt by ear from very early on with Suzuki, and she came to me with very poor music-reading skills, she could often pick out that she made a mistake from learning with the recording and imitation, but had no idea if she was going by the score. We're now doing a whole course with studies and fun and easy pieces with method books to improve score/music reading and materials I've written myself. But it is such a hassle and takes AGES for her to learn something new.

I don't want my young beginners to end up like this. When should I encourage my very young beginners to read music? When they can read better? They understand the keyboard's "high" and "low" concept and I often give them short little pieces that are songs, so we do some singing and clapping first to know what it sounds like, and then they get on the keyboard and imitate the sounds. They seem to love this and I do heaps of these activities with them. However, the parents really want their children to play something with both hands, and to read music so they can enjoy what they were playing, and hopefully attend those little performances we set up at the school for students.... Maybe I'm just a little impatient because I feel I'm letting the parents down by not helping their kids to improve faster by playing proper pieces...

That is also the reason why I get a little angry at the parents and not the kids for not doing any work at home, its as if they want me to do the work in lessons and make them learn something fast when they don't put in the effort at home. The kids love the lessons though, they learn heaps of stuff and have a very healthy attitude towards becoming little maestros But I feel like I"m repeating myself every single lesson, or for at least half of the materials we worked through the week before like lostinidlewonder mentioned.

I can't use bribes because they don't really care, they get pretty much everything when they go home, and I think they're too little to care about that sort of stuff.. I've tried this before and only found it slightly effective (with Harry Potter stickers, badges, and other merchandise :p)

so in summary, after all that ranting, my problems are

1) when do I encourage learning and reading of music?

2) I have too much pressure from parents and the school to teach the young beginners something they can play for mini concerts or at home for guests, yet the progress is slow because I am repeating myself every lesson, while they don't do much work at home at all. I don't want my lessons to turn into "practice now" lessons, but rather, "learn something new" lessons

3) The kids get pretty much everything when they go home, very well-off families, (private music school), and I cannot encourage them with bribes or "stuff", I'm not allowed to give them lollies or chocolate as school policy. The kids love the lessons, they just don't feel the need to do anything after the lessons have finished, (nor do the parents )

I feel like giving up, it is VERY tiring, and I feel like the school and parents are not giving me support or realistic expectations.....

I learnt the piano when I was 4 too, I remember learning by ear and imitation, but then I would try to see and learn how I got those notes from the score, and eventually I progressed very fast because I could and wanted to read music, and loved learning new and more difficult pieces. I am afraid of my students getting "stucK" anywhere in the future from insufficient knowledge of music from earlier on. I want them to see the fun in learning music, as a second language almost, so they feel the want and need to learn. I don't think they are incapable, I do think they need a bit of a push, their reading isn't that good but at least they can use their memory and recall for notes and note values, right??

[abell88]

There are some very good ideas about teaching reading (especially to young children) on this website:

https://www.serve.com/marbeth/pedagogy.html

I don't agree with absolutely everything she says but a lot of it makes very good sense.

I know how frustrating it is when a student isn't progressing...it really sounds like these kids need daily lessons (a la Bernhard), but the parents probably wouldn't go for it. I think a lot of parents, when they're thinking of music lessons, think of them the way they think of swimming or tennis lessons...you take the kids once a week, they learn stuff at the lesson, and that's it...no mid-week practice is expected. In my classes (for young children), parents attend and participate (they point to the notes, turn the pages, etc.) and they know that they are expected to practise with the children 5 days/week. It makes a huge difference.

[Jacey1973]

Teaching 4 year olds seems like a tough job - as you say they can't actually read yet.

However - has anyone else noticed, whenever you read biographys of concert pianists (like my own piano teacher) a great deal of them started learning when they were 4, so it must be possible?

[Bob]

Maybe there's a book of kid songs you could get. 

Maybe teaching them a piece that has words would work.  They could sing and play it at the same time.

A few lessons a week wouldn't hurt.  2-3 might work.  (If the parents have money, why not?)  I wouldn't expect them to practice much outside of lessons.

Give them songs that the parents could play too.  Show the parents how to play it so they can help their kids at home.

Maybe some type of pre-notation would work, or just representing the songs in pictures to the kids.

If the kids can play a simple song, you could always accompany them to make it more fun.

If the parents want to impress people, give the kids something classical -- How about the melody of Fur Elise?  They learn the melody (eventually) and you play the rest. Minuet in G, Bach.....   a melodic line from something like that will impress the parents' friends.

[ludwig]

Thanks guys for the great advice, I've read through the pedagogy stuff from that website abell88 and thanks for it, some very simple and good pointers. I think I'm just scared of the student's and parent's frustration in the slow progress, but it should be pretty steady improvements once they get through the initial stage. I should really ask what their expectations are and what they want me to teach them? I don't think the parents want to get involved in learning the piano with the kids and certainly are not up for 2-3 lessons a week, just once (its at a music school like I've already said, so I don't have control over that), its based on a semester rate and a certain amount of lessons charged at the beginning.... (I really don't like teaching one on one lessons at a music school, I do teach classroom music and also keyboard classes and love being a music teacher, no problems with that at all).

Hey Bob, I don't know if they are ready for anything like Fur Elise's melody, they can only play one octave of notes from middle C both ways (in LH and RH) in step-wise motion (cannot find leaps of notes easily yet) so basically I'm teaching them "songs" which I sing with them and clap the rhythm first, before learning the notes on the piano "by ear" and showing them how its notated on staves... Is this a generally good method for now?

Jenni, I started the piano when I was 4, but my mum was very dedicated and learnt the piano for a year and taught me again everyday after we'd come back from piano lessons...I don't think these kids will get much help from their parents at all at home, especially since the parents are super busy and some of them don't live together so the other parent does not know how they should practice or what the kids have been told. I'm curious to find out how you guys learnt and what you learnt when you started out if you were a very young beginner, and did you progress very slowly for the first year or two when you couldn't grasp the concept of music reading....Thanks in advance

[galonia]

Just because children can't read the alphabet doesn't mean they can't read music notation - if they understand high and low on the keyboard, then it just corresponds to high and low on a staff, and children can judge distances - it's been proven that babies develop spatial judgement before a year old.

So it's just a matter of demonstrating how distances on the page correspond to distances on the keyboard.

As for prizes and incentives and bribes - you could always put their sticker prizes in the one spot - e.g. on the cover of the notebook you write in - then they start to see the accumulation.  Rather than putting a sticker on each piece they master.  A lot of children like to collect things for some bizarre reason... so they want to cover the entire front of their notebook.  It's not a matter of receiving something material, they seem to like the visible achievement of having collected heaps of stickers!

Alternatively, have a chart of several students and put the stickers on that, but you keep the chart - so they see how many stickers they've earned, compared to other students.  This will give you the "healthy competition" thing you wanted (personally I don't believe in this, but it works for some teachers and for some students).

[Bob]

I would think whatever is working is good.

It's interesting to hear what they can and can't do.  Can you tell us more?

I imagine their attention spans would be very short -- 30 seconds, minutes or 5-10 minute tops. 

Can they keep a beat?


Maybe their parents can hire a musical tutor for them to do the daily stuff with them.  Someone like a high school student that you can tell exactly what to do with these kids.


I would imagine any music they would try to read would have to be extremely simple, like 3 notes and blown up big.

[ludwig]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for your concerns I have found that the pre-school kids have a very good sense of beat, they love to count and love the adding up of note values... However they forget every lesson about the note values, I've taught them 4-beat notes, 2-beat notes, and 1-beat notes, and what they are called and got huge staves for them so they can draw it every lesson, but they forget because no revision during the week.

Learning new note names is difficult, they know where middle C is and can usually go up the keyboard no problems... On the way down they are not very good with note names but that's normal, the confusing thing for them is starting at C instead of A, especially knowing or remembering the letter names of alphabet and notes backwards... I got them to just play on the black notes before, and they have learnt a couple of pentatonic songs, but the parents wanted them to know what they were playing in terms of notes, I didn't want to get to the sharps and flats at all (maybe in a years time :p) so I started doing songs with them only in C major, with a maximum of 5 notes (they can't do fingers over and under yet), and hands either seperate or in alternating manner...

They have very strong fingers, I try to encourage them to use the right hand shape but usally they don't stick to it for long, I do think this is important earlier on, I try to put a ping-pong ball in their little hands to show them what it should look like and feel like when playin in that position. They often move around a lot, and their feet don't stay on the foot stools, I don't think this is such a big problem for now, but when they are more capable, I shall emphasis posture.

VERY short attention span indeed, I have to alternate between activities at the keyboard and away from the keyboard every 3-5 minutes, so I have heaps of games and stuff for them to do, even if its copying out some big notes on the big staves. They love doing that sort of stuff, they want to write the musical notes. Actually I have a kid with mild ADD and lessons with him is very tiring for me, I can't do too much physical activities like clapping and walking to music etc... I started a thread on this before, just seeking advice on what to do with kids with concerntration problems.

I doubt the parents will hire a tutor for them to work through the stuff at home with them, I guess they don't need me if they can have lessons at their house everyday, like abell88 said, these parents expect piano lessons to be a once a week thing, just like doing swimming, tennis lessons, rehearsals in orchestra or tutoring in maths or english. They don't get that practice is the key to improvement, and they need to make music part of their daily life to be improving, thus making them more inspired to learn new things.

I guess I'm seeking advice on how to teach young beginners so that they improve their reading skills and thus progress faster with their repetoire, this is what the parents want... But at the same time, making the lessons fun and inspiring

[Bob]

Hmm..... maybe a tape, video or CD, that they could watch every day and follow along with it.  Record a lesson and have them repeat it every day.

[Jacey1973]

Thanks guys for the great advice, I've read through the pedagogy stuff from that website abell88 and thanks for it, some very simple and good pointers. I think I'm just scared of the student's and parent's frustration in the slow progress, but it should be pretty steady improvements once they get through the initial stage. I should really ask what their expectations are and what they want me to teach them? I don't think the parents want to get involved in learning the piano with the kids and certainly are not up for 2-3 lessons a week, just once (its at a music school like I've already said, so I don't have control over that), its based on a semester rate and a certain amount of lessons charged at the beginning.... (I really don't like teaching one on one lessons at a music school, I do teach classroom music and also keyboard classes and love being a music teacher, no problems with that at all).

Hey Bob, I don't know if they are ready for anything like Fur Elise's melody, they can only play one octave of notes from middle C both ways (in LH and RH) in step-wise motion (cannot find leaps of notes easily yet) so basically I'm teaching them "songs" which I sing with them and clap the rhythm first, before learning the notes on the piano "by ear" and showing them how its notated on staves... Is this a generally good method for now?

Jenni, I started the piano when I was 4, but my mum was very dedicated and learnt the piano for a year and taught me again everyday after we'd come back from piano lessons...I don't think these kids will get much help from their parents at all at home, especially since the parents are super busy and some of them don't live together so the other parent does not know how they should practice or what the kids have been told. I'm curious to find out how you guys learnt and what you learnt when you started out if you were a very young beginner, and did you progress very slowly for the first year or two when you couldn't grasp the concept of music reading....Thanks in advance

Aww thanks 4 my personal reply ludwig...i feel honoured! Hehe...damn it wish i started when i was 4!

[whynot]

I think the ping-pong ball is risky.  That sounds like too much hand curve.  Hand position for beginners doesn't need to be an issue at all.  The size of the hand changes quickly in those early years, so the position will change too.  The hands will adjust naturally to the instrument over time if you make sure they're at the right height (which may be standing up for them).  As they start opening the hand more (I've trying to avoid the word "stretch"), you can keep an eye on them that they don't overreach or become too tense, but they can play zillions of things in a small hand position first, giving them time to grow. 

I am a major believer in teaching reading, and I learned to read music very young-- but I could read books then too, so with your kids it's a different situation.   One way to look at it is that children learn to speak and understand language years before they learn to read it.  You could consider reading music from the same standpoint, that there are all these ideas about sound, singing, pitch, rhythm etc that should (or could) be learned and understood very soundly (no pun), then we start to show them how we represent these things on paper.  Maybe several months or more could be very well spent on just playing and singing, feeling rhythms and all the other cool things you're already doing. 

How to get the unreasonable, unhelpful parents either on your side or off your back?  On your side... I wondered while reading about them, because they have money and the kids are in activities, are the children by any chance in dance lessons?  A dancer friend just told me that she loves teaching dance to musicians because they practice!  I said, "What do you mean, they practice?  Dancers don't practice?"  She said they really don't, they do all this group work and that's how they progress.  So I just wondered.  I know you've explained practicing to the parents, but if they don't believe it, maybe this is the reason?  Anyway, could be worth finding out.  Off your back... don't know, I'm fresh out of ideas!  Torp's a good dad...

[ludwig]

Thanks whynot, unfortunately I had to drop a few students at the school I was working at because I got a more stable job teaching as a music classroom teacher in secondary, so I no longer teach the very young beginers. I used a lot of suggestions you guys gave me,  I didn't notice a thread dedicated to young beginers and started browsing through everything I could find here, there were heaps of suggestions and Bernhard's lesson plans were heaps helpful.... Thank you for them. I tried not to push the child too hard in playing pieces because the parents wanted something to show off with. I taught them a lot of note names and the main note values and I am really happy about that. However, the practice they do at home is up to them and if I can't have more than 1 lesson a week I can't  make sure they do some practice, any practice But yeah, a couple of days ago I told the kids I can no longer take them for piano and they were really sad, I guess I had some influences on their interest and liking in music, so that was good and fun Maybe I'm just not good with kids under 5... I have students who learnt piano with me since 6 and are doing very well (like almost 2 grades of improvement a year), and their parents are really happy.... I just wish I had a way with all kids.. I guess the goal of a music educator is to be able to encourage all different types of students to enjoy music and appreciate it, and eventually, (hopefully) they will want to practice and learn about music... I have lots to learn yet, but its all good, because I think experiences are the most valuable lessons for me, even not so good ones :p

Thanks again everyone, I'll be back to ask more questions soon 

p.s the ping pong was just to show them to sit their hand up, especially for tiny hands, because they don't cover the ball at all And it was like for a show only, not to be practiced with every time

pss I don'tk now if there are any music teachers for schools on these boards, would be really interesting to talk about lesson plans and behaviour things with you guys (if you're out there :p) and it'll be very helpful for me Thanks

Ludwig

[dveej]

Ludwig, I really related to what you were saying about the parents in the young children's lessons.

I have taught kids as young as 3 1/2, but I made it a rule that 1) the parent had to be there and 2) the kid had to know how to say "ABCDEFG" and count to ten and write her own name before they could start.

Also, I am ON those interrupting parents. If they start to answer a question I have asked their kid, I silence them with a glance or a gesture or something.

And at the end of the lesson I always tell the parents what I think they should be helping the child with at home. Bottom line for me: students younger than five (and sometimes even up to 7 or can't do lessons right without parental involvement. My students' parents, even if they don't know piano or music themselves, are working with their kids at home during the week.

About hand position: I was trained in Suzuki (cello, not piano), and I think that any method is good or bad depending on the quality of the teacher -- so it doesn't make sense to dis Suzuki because some teachers allow their students to get away with not learning to read. That's just bad teaching. Good Suzuki is good, like anything else. I don't do traditional Suzuki with my students for various reasons: but one Suzuki piano thing that is good is for hand position.

The first piece the student learns in Suzuki piano is the first "Twinkle" variation. This is Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star in the key of C, with one hand at a time playing the melody only, C C C C C C, G G G G G G G, A A A A A A, G G G G G G, etc. The rhythm of this is four sixteenth notes (close to the keys) and two staccato eighth notes (coming high off the keys). Learning this variation with its staccato tends to fix hand position and finger position problems automatically with little kids who collapse their distal phalanges (the joint closest to the fingertips). Although I don't teach all of the Suzuki repertoire to each kid, I find that this Twinkle variation is good for hand position. Staccato in general, if done right, will fix some hand position problems.

And younger-than-fives need shorter lessons, like less than a half-hour. I started with one 3 1/2 year old for ten minutes. She's still with me five years later and doing well.

[joyfulmusic]

I tell parents of 4 year olds, that lessons at that age look very different for a while.  My goal is for them to be comfortable in the world of music and to be able "see" themselves playing.  I start with the beginner books and for a few weeks anyways I start at the first page every lesson and just do it over and over.  Then we "make up" songs.  Last week a four year old wanted to make up a song about Batman and Robin.  So I began to improvise with the basic theme and he "played along" for ten minutes.  What happens is that when they do learn to read, they can simultaneously pick up reading music.  Because you have been doing it already with them they're off and running.  A little bonus here is that you can act like a kid with them and have a ball.