Beethoven keyboard music or Chopin keyboard music?

[contrapunctus]

I would like to know some of your opinions on the subject. Like: In your opinion which composer generally composed harder works? Who had a greater affect on the musical world? Who displayed more universiality and diverseness? Which are more theoreticaly complex? Which derives the listener more pleasure when listening and any other opinions of the subject you might have.

[keys]

Beethoven wins the first four catagories. Chopin was also a genious and his works have a lot of (often overlooked) depth. But  Beethoven is pretty tough competition. Chopin wins the fifth catagory. No other composer is as much of a crowd-pleaser.

[lagin]

Beethoven was way more intense IMO.  Keys put it well.  Chopin was more of a crowd pleaser.

[Siberian Husky]

OMGOSH CHOPIN IS JUST THE BEST MAN!

HES LIKE THE BEST!..I MEAN!!..HE DID THE FANASI IMPORMPTU!

AND OMGOSH THAT ONE SONG WITH THE CRAZY FINGERS THE REVOLUTION!!!

NO ONE CAN BEAT CHOPIN!..HES THE ALTIME GREATEST MY FAVORITE CHOPIN SONG IS FUR ELISE ITS SO BUETIFULL

[maxy]

they are extremely different...

Beethoven has an orchestral conception (even with piano music) and is highly structured in his approach.

Chopin has a pianistic conception with some vocal elements and he does not care that much about structure.

to answer your questions:

In your opinion which composer generally composed harder works?  Beethoven

Who had a greater affect on the musical world?  Beethoven

 Who displayed more universiality and diverseness? Beethoven

Which is more theoreticaly complex?  Beethoven


Who do you like most: I don't know.

[contrapunctus]

OMGOSH CHOPIN IS JUST THE BEST MAN!

HES LIKE THE BEST!..I MEAN!!..HE DID THE FANASI IMPORMPTU!

AND OMGOSH THAT ONE SONG WITH THE CRAZY FINGERS THE REVOLUTION!!!

NO ONE CAN BEAT CHOPIN!..HES THE ALTIME GREATEST MY FAVORITE CHOPIN SONG IS FUR ELISE ITS SO BUETIFULL

sarcasm?

[Siberian Husky]

why yes..i fancy the art of verbal diarrhea

*hug*

[Daevren]

I think Contrapunctus(sp?) argued in another topic that Chopin was an immature and clumsy composer. I kind of agree with this. I don't see his greatness when I look at the scores. Plus there are obviously alot of things wrong with his music. If you compare the Godowsky etudes with the original ones and look at the orchestration of his piano concerto's you get an idea of what I mean.

But on the other hand, he does seem to please alot of people. So maybe he has the X-factor.

[contrapunctus]

I think Chopin died to young before he could right solid, good, mature, emotionally refined music. If he lived longer he may have gotten better. How great would Chopin have been if he lived thirty more years?

[Daevren]

Yes, I see that also. But then again I wonder, because he didn't seem to develop his style alot. So it might not have made a difference.

[hodi]

both are great you can't compare them
but chopin+orchestra = crap

beethoven+orchestra - absolute beauty

[fiveangles]

I like this thread very much but if I may I would like to ask a question or two, as I don't feel as though I have enough knowledge right now to speak after reading this thread.  I quickly say that while I play (not well obviously, but adequite) several instruments, the substantial gifts are as a pianist, operatic tenor, and the possessor of two not so common ears as well as the appropriate intelligences to match.....obviously not a speller.  So the point is that I am not formally educated in music (yet, as I may commit to the operatic stage) even though my piano teacher was in the lineage of Ludwig, I really learned much on my own accord; the operatic world is far different however as I am a part of it in various ways being very fortunate to be close to some of the greatest artists of last century.  Therefore, qualitative areas of music such as meaning or the tones themselves regarding their effect and intended effect, I understand much from my expierences....quantitative areas such as structure, terms, complex theory, biographies, etc I know little.  So I wanted to admidt this as I am not ashamed that I have much to learn, that I am seeking to learn.  So if I appear like a 2 yr old in one area, that is because for that area, I am just that.....but I am still wise enough to know that 2yr olds should not be answering questions, they should be asking them.  And of course, I have areas where I'm far older than 31.  And lastly, please know that if anything comes off as being arrogant, nasty, etc, that is most certainly not my intention....the drama in my writting gets me into trouble if I dont make this qualification because the truth is that I'm very excited that I may finaly be able to have conversations about music that I've always wanted to have but never have found more knowledgable people (Opera obviously not included) who I could chat with in so long, but what really excites me is that I have never been able to speak to the "they" and "them" group in the would of music.  Now, I am trying to be light hearted, not fecicious, for for 31 years I have either heard or said comments like "They say that Beethoven is greater than Tchaik" or "They say that Verdi's Otello is the greatest opera."  This obviously must be taken with a grain of salt because it ultimately connotates that the musical opinion of people like myself is of little value without formal education, therefore since I can't understand classical music anyway, I might as well stick to pop because I would at least be able to understand it.....and the flip side of that coin is that "they" see music in such a structural and literary manner having forgotton that music is to be listened to rather than read, that "they" are better off not listening to classical music either for fear of arrousing an emotion that is free of structure.  I mean it's so propostorous you can only laugh, but there are people who either really are missing the boat with music in that there are far greater examples of genius than Spears, just as there are music snobs.....and they're not equal....undstanding classical music brings a higher level of understanding to life...the snob should no better if he/she can actually hear.

Anyway, ok right to the question.  I play piano for me, so I play what I like best, and that is Chopin & Beethoven (Sonatas only).  I play what speaks to me, those peices where I feel as though I understand what the piano is saying (for Chopin, I'll use the word singing instead)  Now I've been playing chopin for 25 yrs, and while I have heard what "They" say about Tchaik, or Puccini (well, that is becomming what "They" said about the latter), I have never heard anything other than "They say that Chopin is the foremost composer for the piano."  So I'm not arguing here, like I said, I am wise enough to shut up for now and ask why because I've never heard that before.  In my opinion right now, I can't see how Beethoven would be considered the greater composer FOR THE PIANO.......actually thats not true, I can see how, on scales of structure, form, refinement, but I would just ask that outweighs the assets of Chopin.....a large part will be due to the period, but that works both ways.....but his works just as melodious, his textures, harmonies, are more colorful, more prodigous, certainly not savage, not without purpose and not without great effect (and u know what examples I speak of so why waste time).  Structure itself was changing due to the verrisimo movement in Italian Opera as the bounderies between sections in opera were being torn down in favor of continious flow of music.  This found its way into his music.  Tied all together I would just say that Chopin music showcased the piano better & thru which of course, his compositions have more 'piano' in them telling this story, more colors/shades/emotions....the melodic gift was great, as great, or greater, his harmonic gift to me is unparralleled on the instrument.....the repit. is large, containing masterpeice works with all the above in addition to huge demands on the artist from his prodigious ideas, effects......and in these works Etude 25/11 A minor for example, these effects have purpose (and I dont mean the fact that the right hand is a study, I mean that the sound of the whole when played to speed is incredible & genius)  So remember I'm not saying what I've said is true....I'm asking if I am wrong.

I must say, that years ago when I fell in love with opera, all I cared about was how the music sounded.  Now, after studying Puccini, I understand how his rigid structure and adherence to the action on stage, and a million other perfectionist details make such a difference.....u can't compair Mascagni to Puccini, regardless of how beautiful Cav Rust....The fact that all 3 acts of Tosca begin on a variation of Scarpia's bars (first 5 chords of the opera) means so much to me know in how it ties 3 acts together etc.  But in piano compositions, I dont appreciate structure yet, as an example,.....I don't know how to.....but because I discovered in my own studies its tremendous effect in opera, I know, I may be wrong......but I still am asking because I have never heard anything else said of Chopin than he was the greatest composer of works for the piano, greatest piano composer....same thing.....is that not true?

[llamaman]

Beethoven wins all of them for me, except for hardest works. Chopin has composed some insanely difficult pieces.

[shoshin]

Beethoven scares me. I dont think he wrote his music for people to enjoy listening. I think his music is more of a statement....a very powerful and emotional statement.  I can't listen to many Beethoven pieces without his tormented soul being felt.

For your question I would say Beethoven on all accounts except difficulty and listening.  Those two are pretty subjective.       

[Baohui]

I think Chopin died to young before he could right solid, good, mature, emotionally refined music.

Like the ballades perhaps? Agreed about his potential greatness though.

I like this thread very much but if I may I would like to ask a question or two, as I don't feel as though I have enough knowledge right now to speak after reading this thread. I quickly say that while I play (not well obviously, but adequite) several instruments, the substantial gifts are as a pianist, operatic tenor, and the possessor of two not so common ears as well as the appropriate intelligences to match.....obviously not a speller[snip]

John Cont?

[shoshin]

Tied all together I would just say that Chopin music showcased the piano better & thru which of course, his compositions have more 'piano' in them telling this story, more colors/shades/emotions....

I agree with this. I think Beethoven forced the piano to play the music--some very incredible stuff...and this might be a testament to his greatness as well. Where Chopin hit the technical and physical boundaries of the instrument, Beethoven was hitting the musical boundaries of the instrument.  I think Beethoven conquered the piano and the piano conquered Chopin. This happened right after Beethoven wrote Fur Elise.  It wasn't until 1990 when Yanni released "Reflections of Passion" that another composer challenged Beethoven's greatness.

[6ft 4]

Beethoven's works are more difficult musically so he wins on all accounts.