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Topic: what is the point (in art)?  (Read 1836 times)

Offline Tash

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what is the point (in art)?
on: August 14, 2005, 11:16:01 PM
I saw an exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Art the other day, I have no idea what it was called or who the artists were because it was the biggest load of conceptual art bullsh*t I have ever seen. But more on that soon. I want to have a rant about my current thoughts on art and why I refuse to do it for myself anymore. So if anyone has any contradicting comments to this that might help me from having such a negative view on contemporary art might be of some benefit to me.

Despite the fact that until the end of this year I am supposedly studying to become some form of artist, I have found that I really do not find a point in what I am doing. Like some may say it’s a form of self expression, a way of communicating your ideas, but personally I don’t care about that. Well not directly anyway. My primary issue with this is that artists use this as an excuse to make the most boring, untalented works of all time. The idea of concept and experimentation results in artists becoming lazy by merely splattering some paint or doing some distorted picture of whatever and calling it a work of art- like of course it can take forever to do, but it doesn’t remotely take the effort painting some actual realistic thing (or along those lines) takes. Art has become a result of laziness and being poor- why do most the artists of today not create massive time consuming oil paintings? Because they’re too poor to afford the paints, and have to resort to collecting rubbish off the streets and compiling it into some conceptual mash that nobody understands because it has no point! In which case I find this, as an artist who believes that painting should be based on the talent of being able to draw realistically and being able to incorporate a really good sense of colour, tone and design into that. This offends me because, in my painting class, my bloody major at uni, they don’t care about this, so despite that fact that I can paint reasonably well, of course I have things to improve but that doesn’t matter, I get stupid marks because I’m not experimental enough.

It all comes from our education, both at school and university, we aren’t taught anything about technique- provided you have tried playing with new ways of creating art, have at least 3 influential artists, and have a concept that has to do with identity, culture or something political then it’s all good. So nobody knows anything about the basics of drawing, like perspective, tone, creating colours, and well structured paintings, unless you take a special course in it, or at uni do it as an elective, but it’s not compulsory. Is this not stupid? There are 50 million people in my painting class who couldn’t draw a figure if it wasn’t a stick, and I’m like why the hell are you here? I can’t work in a world that is like this. This exhibition I saw, it was primarily about audience participation- answering questionnaires, recording comments in a phone, having your photo with the ‘artwork’. It was ridiculous. Thank god I didn’t have to pay to see it, because I wouldn’t give those artists a cent.

Which is why I like music better. At least with instruments you still have to have some kind of talent to be a professional musician, even for the more experimental music- and for the experimental/conceptual composers, they still have to have an understanding of what the instruments can and can’t do- you have to know about music! We can still play pieces from before 1900- so why can’t I paint like artists from before 1900? I can’t produce art for myself- the concept of having an exhibition of my work seems stupid because I wouldn’t be able to justify what I’m painting- I have racked my brains trying to think of something that would actually be worth painting, and every time I come up with an idea I’m like why would I want to paint that? I’m generally not one who likes to make comments within what I do. I want to create artworks that the audience likes- that they can stare at for hours and it moves them- but you don’t have to have a concept to make art beautiful, it’s one of those indescribable things- if someone asked to explain what my art was about I could make some rubbish idea behind it, but it wouldn’t be why I created the work- I just mashed the idea to fit the painting, whereas it should be the other way around- but my art teachers won’t accept that I don’t have a concept. It’s stupid. I will paint specific works for people who ask for it, because I know they’re not in it for the concept- they appreciate the aesthetic qualities of my paintings and that’s all I care about.

So that is why I’m quitting art. I now have people putting bets on whether I’ll take it up again as a non-commissioned type thing. But personally I can’t see myself picking up a brush just for the fun of it.
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline Bob

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 12:19:38 AM
The good old school system!  :)

I see some similar oddities in music.  Music is about self expression, except you have to play a piece exactly a certain way.

Music has some of these things -- John Cage didn't know anything about harmony and did the modern music.

A lot of schools are about research and pushing the edge.  That means they will be more interested in new than tradition.

Why not keep the old?  I think the answer is because it's been done before.  Instead of the new work, there is the original one that has already proven itself.  If someone writes like Bach now, they are accused of copying him and it's doubtful they'll outdo him.  I don't totally agree with this, at least I don't think.  I imagine something slightly different might be created.



Aw Tash.  You don't have to quit.  Things are different when you're out of school.  Then you are in charge and choose and pick what you want to do and what you want to leave behind.

Sounds like you had a bad day. :(  It sucks to have something you like to do forced upon you and changed in the process. 

I think you do have a concept.  I see it in there.  ... works the audience likes, moving artwork, art to be appeciated for what it is (although the teachers might not like it if it doesn't have a deep philosophyical meaning)...  You might translate that for the professor into something like... (this would have to sound better for them) ... "Works that are easily accessible..." "meant to be appreciated for the tone, color, etc. (all the things you mentioned above)..." "a study of color..."  I'm thinking of that girl with the pink piano.  For a philosophical concept behind it, you can say your art deals with simplicity -- It's a return to refreshing simplicity (as opposed to the complex philsophical concepts of today's modern art) dealing with surface aesthetics (color, proportion) in a traditional manner, with your unique "Tash" take on tradition, and...  the simple concepts might be something like innocence or childhood...  and... it appeals to a broad audience because it is based on basic concepts of human existence and experiences unique in life but common among most people (like piano lessons).  Your art is meant to display skill (which is radical when compared with today's cliche "nontraditional" themes) and is meant to appeal to everyone (as opposed to today's 'elitism' which pushes people away from the aesthetic experience of art).  After all, we're supposed to be attracted more people to art, not pushing them away with too many ideas beyond the artwork and ideas that are not "organic" in the work itself.  So, in this way  you're "radical" because you go against the grain of what everyone else is doing. (And you can make a living doing art that people will actually like and will purchase.)

I see other similarities in music.  It's fun and enjoyable, but college can make it "unfun."  It is about communicating with the listener though and less so about the performer enjoying themself.

Hang in there.  There is stuff you have to put up with in college just to get through it.  Afterwards, you can ignore the bs and focus on what you want.

Maybe there is someone out there doing what you want to do (career-wise) and you can find out from them what you can do.  Maybe there is a teacher out there who teaches what you want or maybe a whole school.  Who knows...
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline pianistimo

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 01:08:31 AM
agreed with bob!  you can't quit now.  you're on a roll.  everyone here likes your work.  don't quit.  you are talented.  go to another school if you have to.  join your sis in england.  find a place that teaches you what you want to learn.  if you really want the basics first, learn it (even by yourself - practicing from a book) or a tutor.  there's so much in art that is used in those designer shows on tv that turn out so well.  they know how to choose color (most of the time) and to emphasize the best in a room, or piece of art, or whatever. 

something i've learned in music is to keep simplifying.  also, in life.  the easier you make it, the better quality (because you have more time to focus on one or two things).  i'm not saying i don't like complicated art, it's just more distracting and harder to take in a focal point.  i like the one focal point idea.  and, being sort of old fashioned, the 'non splash' techniqes (as you said) and a bringing out of light and dark and definate shapes and sizes of things.

start noticing what you first notice when you walk into a room.  of course, it does depend on where your head is pointed, but generally where your eyes gravitate.  is it a classmate who's wearing a certain color?  is it a chair that is at an interesting angle?  start keeping a notebook of what you notice first when you go somewhere.  then, after this, what you notice second.   third.  what are some of the last things you notice in a new environment?  are they still important.  how many are on the list?  just some ideas that brainstormed in my head.

ps you could get a double major in art and music!

Offline Antnee

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 01:33:21 AM
I don't think it does much good to you, Tash, to say, "Oh, don't quit please!" becuase that would almost be like denying you the right to your own choice. Just as painting is a form of self expression, quitting the art is as well, meaning you are expressing the feeling that you simply don't get a good feeling doing it anymore. I agree! Why do something like painting if you can't enjoy it? Art  nowadays is a very difficult profession, becuase it is open to so many individuals and if you aren't satisfied doing it, it doesn't make much sense. I never fully understand how one can grade certain things such as art unless the guidelines are specifically laid out. But not being experimental enough doesn't make much sense. I agree that a big problem is that people are lazy. Listen to modern classical composers. It is more common to hear a Liszt rip off piece than a Mozart. I believe this is becuase it is too difficult for people to pull off.

I think people loose too much confidence in themselves when looking at more classic paintings. "Oh I'll never be able to do that, so I might as well just mess around and see if I come up with something cool...". If there is one thing I have learned relatively recently in my life, it is that  everyday, people get more lazy, have less of a unique personality and a sense of self determination. People just don't care anymore. And everyone wants to be the same. And then there are the wierdos who try to be "really different" and pierce themselves and whatever. People should just be themselves. If someone doesn't like it then ignore them. So really Tash, take into consideration the kind of world we live in today when facing the everyday pains of trying to paint what you want. It's not your fault and never will be. So do what feels right and do what makes you happy. If you feel up to it just do what Mussorgsky did. Instead of actually painting, just compose some pieces about them instead.   ;)

-Good Luck...  8)

-Tony-
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline Bob

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 01:42:39 AM
It all depends on how much time you have left at the university and what you want to do afterward.  

I hope I'm not insulting you by this, but I had the impression that "Tash from pf" would become a commercial artist, the kind that draws/paints really well and might be doing something like greeting cards of designs for businesses -- something that has immediate and broad appeal.  Hopefully, that's not insulting to you as an artist.  

The paintings/drawings that I have seen seemed to have their own style and were interesting to look at.  I imagine a degree wouldn't be everything, but it might give you a little more credibility for finding a job.  The ivory towers can get pretty far removed from the real world.

Find someone who's doing what you want to do.  Look at how much time you have left at the uni and what you have to put up with (stuff you 'have to do' does wear on you).  I wouldn't let your skills go in the area you want to work in.  I would keep those growing so you keep developing in the area you want to work in in the future.

Sometimes things just suck, but fortunately everything is temporary.



I see Antee has responded.... I said don't quit because I think it's good and I think people would pay for it.  But then again, I don't know much about visual art.  I think there are rough times when "following your dream" and you shouldn't let a dip push you away from the things you enjoy.  If you quit, eventually all the garbage from the uni will wear off and one day you will return to painting.  At that point, you will have everything else to deal in your life when you return to painting.  On the other hand, if you stick with it and make it through all the garbage you will be so much farther ahead and more developed at that point in the future.

I agree.  Be yourself.  (Stay true dude!  ::) ) However, I don't think anyone can expect to do whatever they feel like doing in their field.  At least not right away.  I think of composers and artists (movie directors too) and the ones who were doing what they wanted to do had spent a lot of their careers developing things to a point where they made enough income to allow them to do whatever they wanted to.  All the rest was still in the field, but not quite "their thing."
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 01:45:01 AM
Peronsally, I did like the style and all the colors in the paintings I remember.  If the concept was music like that pink piano one, then I was even thinking it would be cool to have something like that, a real painting, hanging in my music room.  I just hate seeing something like that die or go to waste.






(feeling guilty now?)   :)
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline pianistimo

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 01:55:50 AM
yes.  tash, do what you want, but if you quit you're really letting us down.  we won't get to see anymore of your work (because you quit).  *another brainstorm...what if, what if you changed mediums.  like if you went into jewelry making or something like that.  i had a friend who racked up a lot of money with designer jewelry.  it was expensive to buy the materials sometimes, but she would go to flea markets and gather some (already made jewelry and change settings)  she had to buy machinery to do some of the stuff, but it became a mail order business.  you could do this with greeting cards, t-shirts, silk-screening (that's REALLY FUN - i watched a lady do this with kimonos - i sewed some for her, and she would silk-screen really beautiful stuff on it - birds, etc.)

Offline Antnee

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #7 on: August 15, 2005, 03:18:23 AM
It all depends on how much time you have left at the university and what you want to do afterward. 



I see Antee has responded.... I said don't quit because I think it's good and I think people would pay for it.



I hope it didn't seem like I was poking at your post Pianistimo, because I really wasn't!!
 :)

-Tony-
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead." -  Stravinsky

Offline pianistimo

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #8 on: August 15, 2005, 03:32:10 AM
being that when in 7th grade i quit piano - i learned a hard lesson.  i lost valuable time.  people like bob and myself that are older see the lost time as something hard to regain.  it just sets you back especially if you want to return to it.  (everyone else your age is better)  i told my mom i wanted to play the flute.  then, i found out that it was harder for me than piano.  thankfully, my mom said 'well, you have to play an instrument.  one or the other.' so i went back to piano after a couple of years. 

tash, being older, is obviously capable of deciding for herself what she wants to do with her time.  but, she can't change the fact that she is an artist and always will be an artist.  it's something you're drawn to and you can't just stop.  you have to do something creative or you get bored and unhappy.  if i read tash correctly, she could be a commercial and a private artist.  also, a piano teacher.  when you combine so many things, you have a better income - and more fun - with variety. 

i tried some different stuff in college, but always came back to music and artistic stuff.  i like to draw, paint, sew, and do stuff with my hands (gardening).  to me, it is rewarding to be able to see your work finished (unlike some jobs where it just keeps coming and you can't go back and review it as much).

Offline Tash

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #9 on: August 15, 2005, 10:27:09 AM
thanks dudes your posts mean a lot. agh there's a lot to respond to, but my frist thought is bob, i'm not insulted by your suggestion at me being in card designing sort of stuff, it was previously my plan to be a children's book illustrator and do card and t-shirt designs as well. but the card designs are now driving me insane, and t-shirt designs thinking of something new to put on there is such a one-off thing- they tend to come out of scribbling in lectures and it doesn't happen often...
but anyway, the whole 'don't quit'- i feel like (and this is not your fault at all because i've felt like this for ages) i'm obligated to to art, everyone expects me to, which is partly why i'm doing it at uni in the first place. but when it comes down to it all, i really do love music better, so i will be, there is nothing that will change my mind, changing to a B.mus/B.ed next year. art doesn't need a degree to be done, and uni art is teaching me bugger all. i can go to another art school on top of uni that i know will teach me what i want. and ok maybe i'm being a little harsh in saying i'll never do it again. i still sort of want to perfect it. but it's so incredibly frustrating! like i'm exceptionally critical of everything i paint and i can't deal with that sometimes.
but like i said, i only will be ditching art for myself. if people ask me to paint them something i'll do it (provided it's in my limits of what i like to paint), because i know they'll appreciate it. my art doesn't feel appreciated by my art lecturers, and that is really frustrating- it feels like wasted talent
going back to the obligation thing- that's one thing i like about loving music- it's come completely from myself and has never been forced by my parents or anyone. so i know i love it for real and my thoughts aren't being influenced by anyone.
so in the end i want music to be my main thing and art as a secondary. despite this being a pianoforum and not an art forum you can all make much better comments on my arty side than my musicy side- sure i'm not the greatest pianist, but i love musicology and theory, and i think i'd like teaching.

so if you like my art then buy it! mmm maybe i shouldn't say i'll never do it, things about art just frustrate me so much, and nobody seems to get why i don't want to focus on it any more, i'm like geez move on! (that was aimed at people i know rather than people here)

mmmm that's a fat enough response for now...
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy

Offline pianistimo

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #10 on: August 15, 2005, 12:56:13 PM
i admire people who had motivation when they were kids.  i was sort of lazy and appreciated that my mom never let me just stop doing something (anything) after school.  then, when i became good enough at piano to enjoy it, i did enjoy it.  i started playing for school choir in 9th grade and continued throughout.  it's funny, but 'bob' was the name of the choir director.  he was a black guy who was extremely nice and sensitive to people's feelings and taught with great care.  he had a jazz background, so we would learn from the music first (he taught solfege with moveable do) and everyone learned intervals etc. really quick. then he would go on to giving music meaning by introducing lots of dynamic change, expertise in rhythm/clapping, a few blues/jazz songs, a few extra instruments sometimes, etc.  we had some really great singers *(even for highschool) and went to the elementary schools to perform.  we had costumes every year and also choreography (one girl in the class helped do it).  if it wasn't for that music class, i would have gotten into trouble in highschool probably.  after school, i liked the class so much, i would practice and practice the accompaniments until they were spotless.  (that was an hour or so) and then also my piano lessons.  piano does keep kids out of trouble.

Offline Bob

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #11 on: August 16, 2005, 12:23:59 AM
The many uses of piano.... keep students off the streets after school and out of trouble...

pianonut sounds like a real rabblerouser.  Thanks goodness the world was saved from her evil ways by the piano.  God only knows what might have happened... :)


So, Tash, we've recuited you to the dark side of teaching?   :)   I was wondering if music might work out more for you -- you can be quite radical as a visual artist... so radical you paint with sound.

Seriously, if you want music ed, go talk with some music teachers and sit in on a school for a few days.   

There are education jobs that require music AND visual arts.  Very, very few people can do both like that.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Tash

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Re: what is the point (in art)?
Reply #12 on: August 16, 2005, 04:18:34 AM
oooh the dark side eh?! lol, yeah i've talked to my old school music teachers, and i'd like to at least do the course at uni cos i know i'll enjoy it, and they do prac teaching every year so i'll get quite a bit of experience in that. i was actually thinking, i could go get my dip.ed for visual art and teach that too, just maybe for the yr7 and 8 non-elective classes, the theory they teach here is awful and i dislike it way too much to teach it!
oh yes it's my plan to attempt to recruit all my future music students to loving classical music in some vain attempt to keep them away from drinking and getting high too much- good luck to me but hey if they end up listening to classical music i'll be happy!!
'J'aime presque autant les images que la musique' Debussy
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