perfect pitch

[amethyst]

I don't know if anyone posted a similar topic before,I didn't find one and I decided to post about it because it troubles me a lot.Lately I tried to practise a bit on dictation and I found out something that seems to me really weird. Many years ago,when I first tried dictation, I was surprised to find out that I rarely made any mistakes.However,after stopping all music lessons for 5 years and taking them up again now I found out that, although I am nearly 100% accurate when I try to recognise an interval, when I try to define the note that I hear I am nearly always wrong.It's not that I can't distinguish the difference between two sounds,but I will get the name wrong over and over again .Is that normal and what could I do in order to fix it?I'm desperate...

[amethyst]

Sorry for posting this message in this message board,I just don't know how it happened .Anyway,if someone would be kind enough to reply in here I would very much appreciate it.

[Motrax]

There are many levels of perfect pitch. A friend of mine only has it for the violin, and when she practices less, she starts losing it. So your situation is probably not too uncommon. I'm not an expert on the matter (having only very slight "perfect" pitch myself - I can only immediately tell a few different notes), but I believe that if you immerse yourself in music more, you'll be able to get back what you lost.

[perfect_pitch]

Unfortunately I can't really help either... I was born with perfect Pitch....  I never trained to have it or anything, I never did anything to get it.... I guess I was just lucky...   

[amethyst]

What bothers me is that when I had perfect pitch(or so it seemed to happen) I didn't practise on it or anything in order to manage it,I just discovered it the first ever time they asked me to write down what I hear.So how come now I can't do it?

[gruffalo]

i dont know if you can train for it. ive had it all my life. i dont actually know how it started because i cant even remember much from the age of 6 about the pitch, but i must have learned the letteres of the keyboard in order to know the names and then thats where my parents realised i had it. a friend who i was in a choir with for a few years has developed relative pitch where he knows the note 80% of the time and if not, he is usually close. with perfect pitch, you dont think about the note that someone asks you to identify, it just comes without having to think about it so i dont know anything about the training side. just keep singing and sight reading and i guess thats how my friend develpoed his relative pitch.

[josef]

Most babies are born with perfect pitch. In ancient times, before our language has developed, much communication was done with sounds – and a different pitch of the same sound had a different meaning, so having perfect pitch was essential. Nowadays you simply don’t need perfect pitch to survive, so most people loose it during their first years. But chances are very high to keep perfect pitch, if you have musical education (or simple you are exposed to an instrument, which is in good tune) during the following stages in your life: first, when speech develops, then at the age between 5 and 7 years, and at last during your adolescence. Very interesting, musicians from the Asiatic room have more often perfect pitch then from other countries.  There are two theories to explain this: first, the selection is much harder, that means, that only the “very best” students get the chance for a musical education, and second, (please, people from Asiatic countries, correct me if I am wrong), the languages in these countries have much often words, which are exactly pronounced the same way, but their meaning changes drastically if the pitch is changed – so here the “understanding” of different pitches ist much more supported simply by the language, therefore chances are higher to keep your perfect pitch. A few days ago, in a TV-Show, I saw a blind boy identifying 100 different phone numbers by only listening to the sounds the telephon produced (every digit has its specific pitch), while dialing the number. The boy had no musical education, but his inborn perfect pitch was not lost which was "supported" by his blindness,  he had to use much more his aural sense, because of his lacking visual sense. So perfect pitch means not automatically to be a good musician – it simply means having the skill perfect pitch, nothing more.... (ok, ok, I confess, I would like to have perfect pitch, too...)

Greetings, Josef

[perfect_pitch]

Most babies are born with perfect pitch. If you have musical education (or simple you are exposed to an instrument, which is in good tune) during the following stages in your life: first, when speech develops, then at the age between 5 and 7 years, and at last during your adolescence.

Hey, Some people just retain it, despite playing Piano at a late age. I started at 9 years old, and still had my perfect pitch. It's only gotten better... WOO HOO!!!!

[nightmarecinema]

Having perfect pitch could be a curse. I think if I had it, every time I heard something out of tune, even if it was in tune with itself, I would be bothered. I know this is the case with some people, and I know I have a hard time playing my guitar if it's out of tune and I didn't use to. So, I'm fine not having it. And it can be developed, just like anything. Just takes practice, practice, and...more practice.

[felia]

i just read the book of the fundamental of practice piano, there, C. C Chang stated that perfect pitch is not inborn but trained.Anyway, i believe there are people born with perfect pitch,however i think it;s rather a curse than bless, because they cant bear on the out tuned.SOme of my friends really got trained perfect pitch, it;s a skill, when they adapt young. They took Yamaha's JMC course which implant the accurate pitch to their brain in the very early stage of music course. After several years of musicianship training, they can reconiged the pitches in 100% accuracy. If not some of them also develop kinda of relative pitches. In the Fundamental of practice piano, C C Chang intro. some of the way to train your ear, one that i think is quite useful is make the connection of a pitch with a song, like bach 2 part invention in C major, start with C. listen to the piece and make the connection with C pitch, slowly play the piece in your mind. gradually you will know that the frist pitch is begin with C, And you can actually hear the pitch its; almost correct!

YOu can try this way, for futher info, please go to:
www.sinerj.org/~loyer/PianoBook/ piano-practice-a4wide-12pt.pdf

all the best~
Practice make perfect,:)

Luv
FElia

[hazypurple21]

The above posters are right. You know how annoying it would be if you're accompanying or playing an instrument that's not in concert key?
Besides, it's really not that useful for a performer. As long as you develop an ear for intervals, and you know when you're playing wrong notes, you don't need to be able to identify any given note.

-Steve

[gruffalo]

Having perfect pitch could be a curse. I think if I had it, every time I heard something out of tune, even if it was in tune with itself, I would be bothered. I know this is the case with some people, and I know I have a hard time playing my guitar if it's out of tune and I didn't use to. So, I'm fine not having it. And it can be developed, just like anything. Just takes practice, practice, and...more practice.

yes i cant stand out of tune playing. and also, i didnt have it trained, and i hadnt listened to much music when i had found out at the age of 6 or 7 (my parents didnt listen much music and they didnt play any instruments) that i had perfect pitch after learning the notes of the keyboard. nothing was trained into my head. you will find that the people who were trained have to actually think about the note that they hear. where is people born with perfect pitch can tell you instantly (unless under the influence of alchohol  )

[nightmarecinema]

yes i cant stand out of tune playing. and also, i didnt have it trained, and i hadnt listened to much music when i had found out at the age of 6 or 7 (my parents didnt listen much music and they didnt play any instruments) that i had perfect pitch after learning the notes of the keyboard. nothing was trained into my head. you will find that the people who were trained have to actually think about the note that they hear. where is people born with perfect pitch can tell you instantly (unless under the influence of alchohol  )

Funny you say that. I was talking to my friend, who happened to be drunk at the time about something...I forget what. But the point was for some reason I sung a pitch. He said "Bb". I'm like yeah right. We checked, and he was right. I sang another, and he named it again (though on the second time he said it's not quite as fair because he had a referance pitch). I think the point was that he was making fun of my relative pitch, while he had perfect pitch when he was drunk (but only then). Kind of like family guy, actually.

[leahcim]

Having perfect pitch could be a curse. I think if I had it, every time I heard something out of tune, even if it was in tune with itself, I would be bothered. I know this is the case with some people

Yeah, which I never understand. Not the least because there's not a specific way to tune a piano to split the intervals. There's a common way today, of course, with equal temp, but the way they are tuned is relative, not absolute and thus they are all "out of tune" - with other instruments there aren't always discrete pitches, so Eb and D# might be played differently.

If a baby is born with perfect pitch for some old survival reason, why would it relate to the [relatively] modern way modern pianos / instruments are tuned or to 440hz?

[janne p.]

If a baby is born with perfect pitch for some old survival reason, why would it relate to the [relatively] modern way modern pianos / instruments are tuned or to 440hz?

I don't believe babies are born with perfect pitch in the sense of having tones imprinted in their heads, but with genes that make their imprinting there upon possible.

[leahcim]

I don't believe babies are born with perfect pitch in the sense of having tones imprinted in their heads, but with genes that make their imprinting there upon possible.

Well yeah, they aren't like to say "Bb" for a few years

If they are born with the ability to note a significant difference between Hz, with some granularity, say 5 cents, and distinguish that hz value again, then at what point would they be "annoyed" at 435hz, but not 440hz?

Even if it's learnt, at what point does someone decide that 440hz is good and 432hz is bad?

Or on an equal temp piano, if you transcribe everything to C it should annoy them no end [apart from the pieces written in C] - at which point do they decide that the composer was right or an annoying #@$@# when he chose the key for the piece?

Or if they buy an electric toothbrush - if it makes a noise at a tone they're lucky, if it's "out of tune" they are driven mad? Imagine the cacophony of sounds they hear that aren't "in tune"

[janne p.]

I would say that's a question of milieu: what you've heard, what you've been accustomed to, what you find well-sounding.
I guess the pitches you remember best are the ones you've heard most.

Regarding the accuracy I'd say it varies from person to person, and from what kind of PP you have and what level it is on. Some people don't get annoyed by hearing the "wrong" pitch 'cause there aren't any "wrong" pitches, only different pitches. Maybe it doesn't fit in the auditive context but that doesn't mean it bothers the PP-holders more than average musical people.

[leahcim]

Maybe it doesn't fit in the auditive context but that doesn't mean it bothers the PP-holders more than average musical people.

20 goto 10.

[nightmarecinema]

I believe that some people can tell you if its not exactly 440 or at least within 2 cents, I believe. But what I don't understand is how that bothers some people, yet concert pitch is 444 (I think).

And as for random noises, I don't think most people would worry about those, because those that get annoyed buy "out of tune" noises generally can tolerate them for at least a little bit. I can tolerate listening to someone playing an out of tune guitar, just not for long. I even play one of our out of tune pianos, it's not a huge deal. Though I'm sure the better you ear is, the more it would bother you.

I believe that a "good Hz" is one that is a new note - I heard a story of a girl who went to a show where the band was in tune with itself, but somewhere between standard and a half step down. The girl had to leave.

[leahcim]

I believe that a "good Hz" is one that is a new note - I heard a story of a girl who went to a show where the band was in tune with itself, but somewhere between standard and a half step down. The girl had to leave.

Yeah, that's in the message above and the particular questions I had related to that - the perceived annoyance at stuff that, if there is a relativeness to be had between instruments or strings on a single instrument, is otherwise relatively in tune.

If they have some "internal" reference, you'd expect a single string to matter, if 4, 6 or 88 relatively in tune strings matter.

So you'd expect annoyed non-PP folk to have guitar tuners in hand [or be annoyed at something else] since they'd not know. There does appear to be PP folk who could tell but wouldn't care [and PP folk who say they can "tune" themselves too]

Although here you've said between semitones, so perhaps the transcription in steps doesn't count - even so it's still difficult to comprehend, especially w.r.t tunings on instruments being relative in a lot of ways.

I guess it's likely only answered by someone with PP that experiences the annoyance - but as was originally stated, it doesn't seem an advantage.

[nightmarecinema]

Well almost everything is tuned to A 440, so one in tune piano should be in tune with an other in tune piano, unless of course that piano can't be tuned that high.

But as for guitarists, most guitarists with good ears are constantly tuning their guitars, because it is in fact annoying. Generally we try to be in tune with A440, but being in tune with yourself is more important the majority of the time.

[leahcim]

Well almost everything is tuned to A 440, so one in tune piano should be in tune with an other in tune piano, unless of course that piano can't be tuned that high.

Yeah - I know. I think the thread is dying through stating the obvious or talking about people without PP getting annoyed at tuning related, but nevertheless different things

We've said the instrument or instruments are "in tune" with respect to either each other [if there is more than one] or to itself [if there is only one] this doesn't imply they are all at A440, just that they are in tune with each other.

At that point most people couldn't tell, let alone care - trained musician or not. You need PP to tell - that's what PP is after all.

Yet, we're led to believe, some, but not all people with perfect pitch are annoyed to the point of leaving a concert because the instrument(s) isn't A440 [presumably - maybe there are people who only like A435 or A427 or some other arbitrary absolute pitch to start from, and are thus annoyed by all modern music?]

Which begs lots of questions, some of which I asked in previous posts.

Especially as, for e.g on the piano, despite what you're saying about pianos being tuned to A440 - historically they have been tuned in a multiple of ways and the current way could be called "out of tune" in a lot of respects [as could the other tunings] for someone with the ability to clearly differentiate pitch.

The curiosity for me is whether there are significant differences between folk with PP, or whether they are just like other people - some get annoyed simply because they can tell and they are being grumpy Or is it because it actually sounds as bad as an out of
tune string would to the rest of us, which kind of implies some internal reference that they "hear" alongside the music in question.

[perfect_pitch]

Having perfect pitch could be a curse. I think if I had it, every time I heard something out of tune, even if it was in tune with itself, I would be bothered. I know this is the case with some people, and I know I have a hard time playing my guitar if it's out of tune and I didn't use to.

You are absolutely right... the things I hate are people scratching on a blackboard, rubbing 2 pieces of paper together hard... and off tune instruments. But you do get used to it after a while, in the sense that you can listen to it without cursing, but you so just want to go and slap the person playing, pick up their instrument and tell them to shut up until the notes they play sound the same as the piano.

And as for the comment:

I don't believe babies are born with perfect pitch in the sense of having tones imprinted in their heads, but with genes that make their imprinting there upon possible.

Sadly enough I think that it is possible. I had perfect pitch before I even put hands on the piano. Before I had lessons, I could listen to music and retain every single note.

How else could you get perfect pitch, without touching the piano or any other musical instrument???

[gruffalo]

Funny you say that. I was talking to my friend, who happened to be drunk at the time about something...I forget what. But the point was for some reason I sung a pitch. He said "Bb". I'm like yeah right. We checked, and he was right. I sang another, and he named it again (though on the second time he said it's not quite as fair because he had a referance pitch). I think the point was that he was making fun of my relative pitch, while he had perfect pitch when he was drunk (but only then). Kind of like family guy, actually.

i didnt mean  that alchohol stops you from recognising the note instantly. its how fast you remember the notes of the keyboard  and how fast you can tell the note when speech is blurry lol.

[gruffalo]

one thing i found very difficult with perfect pitch was, when singing in choir, they like to take the piece up or down a tone. you get used to it but at first it was a pain in the bum.

[nightmarecinema]

Well, I think in that case I don't really have much to say, I can't respond to the last statements posted since I don't have perfect pitch. If you do have it though use it wisely

[gruffalo]

they used to make me humm the starting note just before we began the procession up the middle of the church. i think perfect pitch is why i can sight read quite well. im not sure but i dont practice sight reading a lot but i can still do it whenever need be. its just an annoyance because changing the tone up or down is very common when just singing an ordinary church service. ive got used to it but its still very difficult.

[perfect_pitch]

Well, I think in that case I don't really have much to say, I can't respond to the last statements posted since I don't have perfect pitch. If you do have it though use it wisely

HA HA HA - Use it wisely? The only way I aced TEE Music was because I used to get 100% in all the Aural Excercises and Exams.     The other students hated me for it...   
Now - so do all the University Students.

Out of curiousity, I wonder if they have classified different degrees of Perfect Pitch... Like on one end - you have a person that can identify a note at a time, and then at the other end (like autistic people can) - Be able to hear a Bach Fugue once, and remember every single note.

Is their any sort of classification???

[janne p.]

And as for the comment:

I don't believe babies are born with perfect pitch in the sense of having tones imprinted in their heads, but with genes that make their imprinting there upon possible.

Sadly enough I think that it is possible. I had perfect pitch before I even put hands on the piano. Before I had lessons, I could listen to music and retain every single note.

How else could you get perfect pitch, without touching the piano or any other musical instrument???

You had still listened to music, right? So the tones were imprinted in your head the auditive way without the tactile aspect. I have of course no proof or anything or the sort, but I believe the imprinting has to be done in one way or other 'cause I can't see why a baby would have all the tones in today's common tuning with A=440Hz in their heads from their birth and not some Indian quarter tone tuning and A=457.32Hz or something.

Maybe it's also possible to develop perfect pitch while still in the womb? Many parents play music to their to-be-born children, maybe that's a way of speeding up the process?

[thierry13]

What bothers me is that when I had perfect pitch(or so it seemed to happen) I didn't practise on it or anything in order to manage it,I just discovered it the first ever time they asked me to write down what I hear.So how come now I can't do it?

Because you have relative pitch and was lucky the first time. Perfect pitch, is, like said in it's name, PERFECT. If you had perfect pitch, you could still do it, like you could talk. I too 3/4 can recognize the note if I hear it. But not EVERY time. So, I have relative pitch.

[thierry13]

a friend who i was in a choir with for a few years has developed relative pitch where he knows the note 80% of the time and if not, he is usually close.

I am exactly the same. I often fall on exactly one tone of the note, if im not of it. I sure do not have perfect pitch. I think I have a relative pitch that gives me an idea of a region of the keyboard where the key is situated. So I can have it, but I often fall one tone appart. But more often on the note I would think. Anyway, like amethyst, I never worked on it. It came naturally by just playing the piano. You do not have to work on this it comes with time, some faster some longer.

[gruffalo]

if you have to think about it, then it is relative pitch. if it comes instantly without even searching or listening too hard or thinking, then you have perfect pitch. thats what splits the two apart.

[perfect_pitch]

Actually isn't it: If you need a reference note first (eg - here's C (play C), what note is this... (plays note)) Isn't that what Relative pitch is, you can name a note relative to another given note...?

Perfect Pitch means you don't need a reference note, and it might take a couple of secs for some, but it is still perfect pitch, just not to such a brilliant extent.

[da jake]

I don't have perfect pitch, just relative.

My teacher doesn't even have perfect pitch, but he is able to play and improvise wonderfully, convincing me that perfect pitch isn't really necessary.

[JCarey]

I have perfect pitch. It has been quite useful to me in many situations.

[da jake]

JCarey: I have perfect pitch
Hot Girl: OMG let's go out

 

[JCarey]

JCarey: I have perfect pitch
Hot Girl: OMG let's go out

 

Precisely.

[da jake]

I must acquire this perfect pitch. 

[perfect_pitch]

JCarey: I have perfect pitch
Hot Girl: OMG let's go out

 

WOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I now have a pickup line.....   

Just kidding. it is really helpful if youw ant to become a music teacher and a Piano teacher.
just because a Concert Pianist is brilliant at the piano, it doesn't make him a well-rounded musician.

You need to be skilled in Composition, Aural and Performance.

[burobbi]

for me there are varying degrees of perfect pitch.

one is relative perfect pitch- the most basic. you can tell the interval between two notes and that's that. the next is absolute perfect pitch- you can recognise notes without a tangible reference point. and the highest lefel is the absolutely perfect perfect pitch. this is the crazy level where you can simply hear something and tell whether it has gone sharp or flat or whether it is perfect, relative to the different concert pitches. (perhaps there may be a level such as relatively perfect perfect pitch where someone may be able to tell you an interval + whether it is sharp/flat)

i would place myself between APP/RPPP and APPP. im dying for APPP because its not very common and its a really good skill. you dont need tuners or forks wherever you go. i havent really had much training because i always play piano. its only like recently which i joined a chinese orchestra and my conductor last time never emphasised e importance of perfect pitch. only now my conductor has proved to me the value of perfect pitching. without looking at anything he can immediately tell anyone whether their note is sharp or flat (relative to the different concert pitches (a440/a442 etc)). in fact, chinese orchestra musicians have probably the best perfect pitch because of the susceptibility of their instruments to change pitching and their tuning instability of the really fragile instruments. in fact the Singapore Chinese Orchestra conductor Tsung Yeh can stop his orchestra which is blasting away and point at one particular obscure instrument and identify exactly which instrument and which note went wrong. I also heard that when he took a lift, when the lift door open and the bell sounded, he commented, "F#, 5 cents sharp." it was later confirmed to be exactly F#, 5 cents sharp when people checked using their tuners.

this kind of tuning is sick - -"

[nightmarecinema]

But you have to understand, perfect pitch is absolutely unnecessary. Of course it can help, if you use it right. E.g. "This note is an C, then an A, and an E... I have a first inversion of an A minor chord."

However, if you have excellent relative pitch, you're already all set. You don't necessarily know that it's A, but you know its a first inversion minor chord. You can hear the distance between any two notes, whether played harmonically or melodically, you can hear the qualities of any chord, you can hear tonalities, etc. This is what is important, not perfect pitch.

[nanabush]

I think perfect ppl just have, and you can't earn by trying to memorize the notes..  I have had pp since I ever even realized what it was... I never hear of ppl saying, I've been practicing my perfect pitch and it's coming along now, I now know 8 notes out of 12...

[perfect_pitch]

But you have to understand, perfect pitch is absolutely unnecessary. Of course it can help, if you use it right. E.g. "This note is an C, then an A, and an E... I have a first inversion of an A minor chord."

However, if you have excellent relative pitch, you're already all set. You don't necessarily know that it's A, but you know its a first inversion minor chord. You can hear the distance between any two notes, whether played harmonically or melodically, you can hear the qualities of any chord, you can hear tonalities, etc. This is what is important, not perfect pitch.

I believe Perfect Pitch is necessary to be a well rounded musician. The only reason most people think it is unnecessary is because it isn't taught as much as the other areas of Music, Composition, Chamber Ensembles, performance and Literature.

Having relative pitch is not the most important thing. Perfect Pitch takes Relative pitch that strong step forward and is vital to help your sight-reading abilities. It helps your sight-reading very much, and greatly improves your performance.

[burobbi]

yes i feel perfect pitch is absolutely neccessary for the all rounded musician.
i went to this concert recently (raffles girls school chinese orchestra) - amateur school chinese orchestra. just fybi (for your bg info) the gaoyinsheng (sop. mouth organ) is always pre-tuned to pefect pitching and will play concert A for the various instruments to tune to. coincidentally i myself play that instrument and my friend who was performing in that concert also played the gaoyin sheng. by convention I would normally request that I myself (or someone else) play the A- it may not be very loud, but it would be a solid concert A which everyone can comfortably tune to. yet when I went to this concert, when the tuning was in progress I heard all 3 gaoyin shengs play concert A together. not that this was wrong, but the appalling thing was that the concert A's were not in pitch! this is highly dangerous. because:
- instruments cannot tune. if they do not have perfect, they do not know which A to tune to (if they can even hear the difference between the two a's).
- instruments with originally correct tuning may go off.
the problem now lies in the fact that the shengs have not been exactly tuned to 442. this will affect the entire concert. IF and ONLY IF all the shengs are equally out of tune (same magnitude and direction), AND the instruments can all tune relatively correctly, no major harm is done.
i of course reprimanded my friend later. - -"

[brewtality]

yes i feel perfect pitch is absolutely neccessary for the all rounded musician.
i went to this concert recently (raffles girls school chinese orchestra) - amateur school chinese orchestra. just fybi (for your bg info) the gaoyinsheng (sop. mouth organ) is always pre-tuned to pefect pitching and will play concert A for the various instruments to tune to. coincidentally i myself play that instrument and my friend who was performing in that concert also played the gaoyin sheng. by convention I would normally request that I myself (or someone else) play the A- it may not be very loud, but it would be a solid concert A which everyone can comfortably tune to. yet when I went to this concert, when the tuning was in progress I heard all 3 gaoyin shengs play concert A together. not that this was wrong, but the appalling thing was that the concert A's were not in pitch! this is highly dangerous. because:
- instruments cannot tune. if they do not have perfect, they do not know which A to tune to (if they can even hear the difference between the two a's).
- instruments with originally correct tuning may go off.
the problem now lies in the fact that the shengs have not been exactly tuned to 442. this will affect the entire concert. IF and ONLY IF all the shengs are equally out of tune (same magnitude and direction), AND the instruments can all tune relatively correctly, no major harm is done.
i of course reprimanded my friend later. - -"

I'm sorry, I don't see how your initial statement relates to your anecdote. How is AP necessary for the all rounded musician?

[nightmarecinema]

Of course perfect pitch can help, but it's really just a stage trick. I don't see how it's necessary for you to be a well rounded musician - most amazing musicians don't have perfect pitch, just really good relative pitch. The only thing I can see it doing that you can't do with relative pitch is giving you a starting note. And this isn't even necessary - you'll either just know where you are, or if it's a sight singing thing, you'll be given a pitch.

[perfect_pitch]

No. The reason people are given the pitch, is because they need it. So many musicians don't have any type of pitch at all. They shouldn't need to be given a pitch...

Perfect Pitch is not a Parlour trick, it is an essential tool to be able to understand music more precisely and accurately and is a very handy tool for Sight Reading.

Just because rarely anyone has it, doesn't mean it isn't needed. 

[nightmarecinema]

I don't understand how it's so necessary to have perfect pitch if so many people are just as proficient at sight reading (the only aspect you seem to think it's really important in) that don't have it as those that do. Sight SINGING maybe, but even there, I don't really think it's necessary, just excellent relative pitch. Although, you say it helps in understanding music...how? It just tells you that this pitch sounds like this. Pitches are irrelevant - it's all about intervals, as far as actual sound is concerned.

And what does "so many musicians don't have any type of pitch at all mean?" If you are implying that most people that play instruments have neither relative nor perfect pitch, I'd hardly call them a musician.

[whynot]

This is getting pretty interesting!  I'll weigh in as someone who has perfect pitch but who admires much more the superb musicianship of my friends who don't all have it.  Perfect pitch is simply a memory for sounds.  Like anything else we wish to remember-- music, colors, phone numbers, names-- some people seem to do it brilliantly and very specifically without effort, including details or timbres, some do it extremely well with some extra effort, maybe not as much detail or get confused by change of timbre, some get in the ballpark with practice, and others aren't very successful no matter what they do.  As with other memory uses, there are tactics for improvement that work for many people, perhaps not all, and which some people don't need because they somehow just remember things. 

Sometimes I find the skill to be useful, sometimes not.  I don't usually find it annoying.   I know some people with perfect pitch who claim to border on hysteria when the telephone dial-tone "clashes" with the train whistle going by.  I have observed this reaction to be personality-driven, not pitch-sense driven.  Because how we perceive sound has everything--or a great deal--to do with our expectations.  If we expect the fundamental tone of the dishwasher to blend with the upper partials of a hairdryer, we're going to be aggravated.  If we expect something very tonal and classical sounding and hear instead two clarinets playing a parallel passage a major second apart, we are apt to think, "Holy cow, what are they playing???"  Whereas if the clarinet thing is introduced as a contemporary piece showing, I don't know, the difficulty of life and the despair of the human condition, we might hear it and say, "Yeah, that's pretty poignant, I get it."  Or if the clarinet thing is explained as two beginners who've learned the passage but oops, one is playing in the wrong key, we might think, "Aw, how cute, they're little beginners."  If you see what I mean.     
 
"Wrong" and "out of tune" are how we perceive sounds  that don't meet our expectations, sometimes because of the above reasons, or perhaps those sounds are outside the tuning systems of our particular culture or instrument.  The first few times I heard Indian classical music, I almost crawled out of my skin.  They use so many more notes than we do, and I just couldn't catch on to it.  My ear is still not developed enough to understand a 26(?)-note scale, but it doesn't bother me anymore because I expect it to sound as it does.  Even instruments that we're familiar with can have a different tuning tradition/expectation:  string players (when they're not playing with piano) tune to acoustic intervals when possible, rather than equal temperament.  So an unaccompanied violinist playing an arpeggiated G major chord, starting on a G that matches the nearby tuned piano, will NOT play a B that also matches the piano.  He will play a lowered major third, ideally 14 cents lower, but in any case, measurable lower than the piano.  And it will be right, and it will be obviously different from the piano, which is also right.  Who's out of tune?  Nobody.  Unless they're playing Mozart together!  Then the expectation is definitely that the violinist must adjust his pitch! even though, alone, he was right in line with acoustic-based expectations.     

Another thought, since I'm blah-ing on and on... the pitch thing is sometimes nice to have, as I've said, but because of other tuning systems (different instruments, a cappella singing, performing medieval and other early music), which present all these different tuning situations, having the memory for specific sounds isn't worth a whole lot without good TASTE in tuning.  If piano is your primary or only instrument, you're pretty much off the hook with the taste thing, I reckon.   But if a person with excellent pitch recognition also sings or plays a tune-able instrument, and still only creates tones that exactly match those of a piano, s/he is not exercising good pitch judgment and is actually going to be out of the system -- OUT OF TUNE-- most of the time.  And if this person does have the judgment to know when to use which "versions" of pitches, that still doesn't guarantee the technical skill necessary to perfectly produce those pitches either vocally or on another instrument.  I guess I just think that there are so many things that can make a musician great.  I think the pitch thing is a helpful one, but not a guarantee-- and there are so many amazing people without it.   

 

[abell88]

Thank you, whynot, for a most sensibl post.