Musicians and Homosexuality

[rohansahai]

Cliburn, Horowitz, Richter, Pogorelich ...........
Simple one: Why are so many musicians/artists homos?

[stevie]

there are perhaps a higher pecentage of homosexual males in the arts simply because homosexuals tend to be a bit more sensetive and feel freer expressing themselves artistically

nd pogo is gay?

[prometheus]

Because those 4 are gay you claim there number of gay people in art and music is significantly higher? Surely I could find 4 straight musicians and 4 gay non-musicians.

Maybe  there are more gay people in art and music. But this is just pure speculation. I suggest you try and find some research done on this subject.

If the statistics show a significantly higher percentage of gay people in music or art we must be careful about drawing conclusions about why this is. Maybe musicians are more open minded to 'come out of the closet'. Maybe it would be more acceptable for musicians and artists to be gay. These is a stereotype there, the one Stevie points out and which may very well be correct. But imagine a boxing champion or a NFL linebacker or a US (republican) politician 'comming out of the closet'.

Also, the fact that most classical pianists live in western countries where homosexuality is more accepted can play a role. Or it could even be possible that white people are more often gay, which I stronly oppose, but that could explain the data.

Be aware that the brain wants to create patterns, totally ignoring their probability. Don't let your brain fool you. So the brain randomly creates artificial patterns. Think clouds that look like sheep. Or faces in all kinds of things, smoke, baked food, really everywhere.

[chopintod]

But imagine a boxing champion or a NFL linebacker or a US (republican) politician 'comming out of the closet'.

Good thinking adding (republican) in there; if you remember, McGreevey (gov. NJ) came out back in 2004.

Terry

[perfect_pitch]

Apparently - About 85% of Dancers and Ballet People are gay (is that term politically correct...) I can never tell...

what HOROWITZ wasn't gay was he??? he was married to a woman for about 40 years...



Wasn't he??? It's been a while since I read his biography.

I think it's sad how - 3 Piano Teachers have been found to be Paedophilias in Australia in the last year.

I GOTTA move out of Australia, before Male Piano Teachers get a bad name.

[pianistimo]

maybe music is their 'family' and gigs are their 'entertainment.'  i have wondered how many artists of both sexes are actually abstinent.  of course, i wouldn't ask either question.  people have a right to privacy, and it's noone's business but their own.

it's funny because people think if you are a christian that you judge people immediately.  well, we're told not to.  in fact, God is the only judge and he judges sin fairly equally.  if we all have sinned and fallen short, then it is not hard for him to forgive anything and everything at the time people come to know Him.

from radio shows i've listened to, they say that the gay lifestyle causes one to put their health at risk because of mutiple partners.  in a monagamous marriage, there is less chance for disease and all, but people pretty much know this already.  i think it is a blessing God created, but so people don't think i'm 'high and mighty' i think people have different upbringings and needs and some have a feeling about their masculinity or femininity because of how they were treated as children or young adults. 

our society has to change a lot for people to stop abusing kids, too.  sensitivity in many areas sometimes comes from excessive criticism from either parents, teachers, or someone who is in 'authority.'  this could make one feel less than adequate.  if people felt really good about themselves, i don't think they would feel compelled to ridicule the opposite sex (as they do on tv)  with guys dressing like girls and visa-versa.  it's really making fun of what is beautiful (both sexes) and making a man or woman be the opposite of what they were created to be. 

[dinosaurtales]

Stupid question:  How do you know when somebody is gay?  I don't seem to have folks coming up and telling me "I AM gay, you know!"  all the time.  Every now and then I "figure it out" through casual conversation, but it just doesn't come up that often.  So do you guys get into these conversations more frequently than I do, or what?

[leahcim]

Easy way to tell, if 2 blokes are having a relationship, then at least one is gay.

If one says "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is" you'll know.

[brewtality]

I think it's sad how - 3 Piano Teachers have been found to be Paedophilias in Australia in the last year.

I GOTTA move out of Australia, before Male Piano Teachers get a bad name.

yeah but weren't they all like Russian or something? Anyway there are plenty of other reasons to move out of Australia.

[gorbee natcase]

Liberace was gay as gay can get

[Tash]

Apparently - About 85% of Dancers and Ballet People are gay (is that term politically correct...) I can never tell...

what HOROWITZ wasn't gay was he??? he was married to a woman for about 40 years...



Wasn't he??? It's been a while since I read his biography.

I think it's sad how - 3 Piano Teachers have been found to be Paedophilias in Australia in the last year.

I GOTTA move out of Australia, before Male Piano Teachers get a bad name.

that'd be 85% of the male dancers right? cos i can't say i know any female, by name at least, and i'm very in touch with the dancing world.


which reminds me, back when i was doing my grade 7 piano exam, the examiner got fired from his school for being a paedophile and into child pornography etc. like 5 months later, i was like niiice...

[fehrle]

*

[brewtality]

I think this is an interesting subject (musicians and (homo)sexuality), and one that is often overlooked by musicologists.  Check out this list of gay, or possibly gay/bi, composers:

Barber, Beethoven, Bellini, Bernstein, Brahms, Britten, Busoni, Buxtehude, Caccini, Cage,  Chopin, Copland, Corigliano, Czerny, Debussy, Delius, Del Tredici, Dussek, Elgar, de Falla, Foster, Gershwin, Grainger, Grieg, Handel, Hildegarde von Bingen, Mahler,  Mussorgsky, Porter, Poulenc, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Satie, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, M.T.T... to name a few.

I didn't make the list, don't yell at me...   

https://jclarkmedia.com/gaybooks/composers.html

Cheers,
Fehrle

These pro-gay sites tend to label almost everyone as gay so I'd take that list with a grain of salt.

[gilad]

Stupid question:  How do you know when somebody is gay?  I don't seem to have folks coming up and telling me "I AM gay, you know!"  all the time.  Every now and then I "figure it out" through casual conversation, but it just doesn't come up that often.  So do you guys get into these conversations more frequently than I do, or what?

I sat used to hang out with a guy at uni. i'm a guy myself btw. he had a high voice and was kinda different looking. anyway we became good friends and clueless me only worked out he was gay after 6 months when he brought his boyfriend up in a conversation. i dont notice these things, i suppose it could be cause makes no diffence to me.

[fehrle]

**

[prometheus]

Good thinking adding (republican) in there; if you remember, McGreevey (gov. NJ) came out back in 2004.

Terry

What has this got to do with my point?

[brewtality]

I, frankly, don't think the list is entirely inaccurate.   

Well obviously some of those composer were confirmed homosexuals, however many others were not, yet appear anyway. It just seems like they are padding the list.

[perfect_pitch]

These pro-gay sites tend to label almost everyone as gay so I'd take that list with a grain of salt.

I'd take that with a grain of salt..... and throw it in the trash....

[fehrle]

*

[prometheus]

I am glad people dismiss unfounded claims made by a biased source. You shoulb be too.

If it's unsure what someones personal sexual preference was then why should this site claim they do know.

[fehrle]

*

[mrchops10]

Sorry, this isn't very helpful (or true, at least I hope not, ot I'm in trouble!), but it's one of my favorite quotes.

Horowitz (who, by the way, was definitely gay):
There are three types of pianists:
Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists.

[ramseytheii]

Apparently - About 85% of Dancers and Ballet People are gay (is that term politically correct...) I can never tell...

what HOROWITZ wasn't gay was he??? he was married to a woman for about 40 years...

It seems he leaned heavily on that side of the fence.  David Dubal in his book Evenings with horowitz often points out how Horowitz only wanted attractive, "normal" looking young men to come and play for him.  Dubal often brought students from Juilliard, and apparently the females were verboten.
I can't recall if it is in Rubinsteins book, "My Many years" or another biography of Horowitz that I read that interviewed Rubinstein, but he said something along the lines of, "In those years [the teens and twenties] we all knew Horowitz was a homosexual."
Then again why did Rubinstein have to say that?

About the obscene list that basically lists every major composer as a homosexual, let it be known that something appealing to homosexual taste (ie Chopin) seems to be  enough to qualify it as a gay thing.  Also it is not unnatural for one man to have a fixation on another at some time, usually early on.  Wagner in a letter to a youthful friend proposed something like marriage; Schumann wanted to live with his dear friend (a young man) for all times, before he met Clara that is; apparently Chopin also had such a fixation.  Perhaps the lines aren't as clear as we like to think.  In that case, how can anybody claim these composers are homosexual?  Besides, the majority of the evidence points to the contrary.

Walter Ramsey

[fehrle]

***

[brewtality]

I just don't see how they can put a list like this together without any definitive proof.

[prometheus]

In terms of bias, surely you recognize that it is a two way street. 

I don't know what you mean with this.

But, can you tell us, for example, what the basis of the evidence supporting the claim of Beethoven being homosexual is. Then we have at least some idea about why Beethoven is on this list while other lists like this, his biographies etc don't claim this.

I don't have any interest in this. I don't care if a composer or pianist is gay, just as much as I don't care if they prefer blonde over brunette etc. So reading those books wood be absolute waste of time.

I dont think that it is any more illogical than claiming the opposite.

The fact that some of those people on the list were married to woman does suggest they were straight. I am not saying gay people never marry woman but surely if they do this suggests the opposite. If we have no data we can assume they are straight because most people are.

I bet Hitler and Jesus Christ would have been on that list were it a list of all famous and historical people.

[fehrle]

*

[chopiabin]

I think part of the reason that many of these composers are suspected of being gay, whether they are or not, is that, as artists, composers must inevitably be completely open with themselves - it's hard to keep up a "macho" front while writing heart/soul-wrenching music. Perhaps when they felt close to a male friend, they were simply unafraid to express their love of another man - platonic or sexual. Most composers (and other great artists) do not conform to the "rules" of society simply because they are society's expectations, and therefore are probably more able to recognize and more open to their sexual desires and love interests - regardless of sex.

[prometheus]

Fehrle, you are stupid. Reading a book about how gay a composer was or how gay he wasn't while you can read a real book is waste of time. I didn't make up my mind. I just asked for some arguments since you are defending the list.

And since you put those 'obscene' words in my mouth, get lost! I don't want to hear any more of your bigotry. I am neither homosexual nur do I engage in hetrosexual activity so I could care less if one of my favorites, Busoni, is gay or not. I guess if I would have been a famous composer I would have made that list and you would have 'defended' my homosexuality because of my 'queerness' in the sense that I try not be by sexually attracted to woman (or men but that is naturally no problem for me). For example, Leonardo Da Vinci is often called homosexual because he lived a celibate life.

BTW, you can put Newton, Tesla, Erdos, Gaudi, Nietzsche, the Younger and Spinoza on your gay list too since he seemed to have little interest in having sex with females. Maybe all the popes too!

I know what you are trying to do. You are trying to offend people and then claim they are bigots for getting offended. Well, you offend me with the use of this tactic and with lack of logic and unfounded claims. Not even mentioning putting bigotry-words in my mouth. You are just as bad as ramseytheii when he used the word 'obscene'.

[fehrle]

*

[steve jones]

Sorry, this isn't very helpful (or true, at least I hope not, ot I'm in trouble!), but it's one of my favorite quotes.

Horowitz (who, by the way, was definitely gay):
There are three types of pianists:
Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists.

Dang, well thats me shot then. I guess I should go back to being a beer swilling, crack tootin axe maniac then 

Seriously though, I had no idea so many great muso's were also homo's. You learn something new everyday

[c18cont]

Sexual orientation,

Has little to do with music and it's presentation and enjoyment...Would you suggest that a female is not likely to be a sensitive performer if she has a divergent orientation?

John Cont

[apion]

Barber, Beethoven, Bellini, Bernstein, Brahms,

Since when is Brahms gay?  I thought he was into Clara, or not?

[minor9th]

Pogorelich was married to his female piano teacher--and was devastated by her death--hence his withdrawl from concertizing/recording for a while. I always thought Richter was married, too. Obviously, as Horowitz proves, that doesn't preclude an interest in men.

[steve jones]

I think this is an interesting subject (musicians and (homo)sexuality), and one that is often overlooked by musicologists.  Check out this list of gay, or possibly gay/bi, composers:

Barber, Beethoven, Bellini, Bernstein, Brahms, Britten, Busoni, Buxtehude, Caccini, Cage,  Chopin, Copland, Corigliano, Czerny, Debussy, Delius, Del Tredici, Dussek, Elgar, de Falla, Foster, Gershwin, Grainger, Grieg, Handel, Hildegarde von Bingen, Mahler,  Mussorgsky, Porter, Poulenc, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Satie, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, M.T.T... to name a few.

I didn't make the list, don't yell at me...   

https://jclarkmedia.com/gaybooks/composers.html

Cheers,
Fehrle

I think its worth remembering that CERTAIN members of the fairer persuasion would try to claim everyone on Gods earth were really gay. I have heard this said many a time, and actually read something about a study that was performed in an attempt to prove that all men were homosexual at heart.

As a straight man (and someone who is not clinically insane) I found this kind of laughable. So it hardly surprises me that someone, somewhere is trying to claim that every influential composer, performer and artist of the last thousand years was gay. In reality, I highly doubt this to be the case.

That said, Id speculate that music and the arts would attract more homosexuals, as they are less inclined to be inhibited about their emotions. Yep, even today us straight guys have to be careful about how we express ourselves. And shedding a tear over a beautiful piece of classical music would probably not sit well (no pun intended  ) with the attitudes and prejudices from where I live. So telling my hard drinking, red blooded male friends that I wanted to become a ballet dancer, may well get me a broken jaw sooner than anything.

Lets face it, with many minority groups enjoying liberation in the modern age, the straight, white male has never been under such a tight lock and key. I sometimes wonder where the hell we are going! But where ever it is, I will continue to love music and be true to myself. And if that makes me gay, the giddy up ya silly gooses 

[fiasco]

Wait, does this all mean that only the men are gay and not the women?  Like, most male pianists are gay, but the women pianists are all straight?

[ahinton]

The long list given earlier on does indeed have its doubt-raising names, but there are some other considerations here which might lend some balanced thinking to a potentially inflammatory topic such as this.

1. Is male or female homosexuality a self-sufficient descrption or is it more a matter of degree?
2. Where does celibacy fit into this, i.e. is there a danger that some celibates might erroneously be dubbed "gay"?
3. Might not bisexuality muddy the waters of such arguments as have been put forward here?

Furthermore, there has actually been quite a lot of speculative - and, one has to say, often unedifying - "reaearch" that has been forced into an alleged "musicological" mould on this subject in recent years; what useful conclusions, if any, may be drawn from it, however, is quite another matter. If, for example, one listens to a singer's or an instrumentalist's performance - or to the music of a composer - without prior knowledge of the sexual orientations of the performer or composer, how is it possible to draw scientific (let alone correct!) conclusions as to their sexual orientation/s from their respective performance or creative manners? That's if one even assumed that it mattered in musical terms and that one therefore wanted to do so, of course. The neuroscientists of the future might possibly make real discoveries in this field, but until and unless that  happens, such speculation will inevitably remain just that - speculation...

Best,

Alistair

[gruffalo]

i dont think it is a speculation. the music department at my old school all the men were openly gay. they were abosultely mad and thats why i have nothing against them because they were so funny. I dont know if this is just the UK, but a lot of male musicians are gay. the women i found are straight. i dont know but maybe music could bring out a feminine touch in men?

When i was a bit less used to gay people, once a music teacher slapped me on the bum and said "hello koni the condom" because my surname is Konieczny. i found the name thing funny but i almost punched him for slapping me there.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

Since when is Brahms gay?  I thought he was into Clara, or not?

clara was just a front. he was into robert. hehehe 

[ahinton]

i dont think it is a speculation

Then do you have - and can you cite - incontrovertible proof? - that's to say proof that applies across the board in general terms rather than a recounting of a specific circumstance in a specific place which in any case appears merely to offer statistical data relating to gay male music staff in one place at one time?

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

, once a music teacher slapped me on the bum and said "hello koni the condom" because my surname is Konieczny. i found the name thing funny but i almost punched him for slapping me there.

    Man this music teacher gay guy touched your ass, though i have nothing agains gay people i would have punched him. If it was a women then thats a different story. Well don for keeping your cool, but tell the head of department next time.Sheesh

[gruffalo]

i worked out that 76% of the teachers in that school are gay and recruited by a gay headmaster. the percentages are not based on who i have suspiciouns about, they are true. its a top london school aswell.

[ahinton]

i worked out that 76% of the teachers in that school are gay and recruited by a gay headmaster. the percentages are not based on who i have suspiciouns about, they are true. its a top london school aswell.

I am not aware that anyone is seeking to dispute what you write here, but it is not really germane to the topic in hand, since you are now writing about a percentage of the entire staff of a particular school, rather than contributing evidence to support your belief that certain of the "musicological" statements about the thread topic of "Musicians and Homosexuality" are not "speculative" as I believe them to be.

Best,

Alistair

[gruffalo]

yes, but it seems like one out of every few musicians i meet are gay. Im not trying to drive this anywhere, i have a few mates who are gay who ive known since i was 10 so im not homophobic or anti-gay. but in my experience a lot of male musicians i come across are gay. more than the amount of gay people i meet through other ways i.e. not music.

[ahinton]

yes, but it seems like one out of every few musicians i meet are gay. Im not trying to drive this anywhere, i have a few mates who are gay who ive known since i was 10 so im not homophobic or anti-gay. but in my experience a lot of male musicians i come across are gay. more than the amount of gay people i meet through other ways i.e. not music.

That may strike you aso notable because you are meeting a disproportionately high number of musicians among all those people that you meet - which is fair enough as far as it goes - although, that said, "one out of every few" does not sound to be an especially high proportion in any wallk of life.

What this thread seems to be seeking to achieve, however, is some more general conclusions about homosexuality in the fields of creative and recreative musical activity; it is in this where I believe those "musicological" speculations of which I wrote are simply off-target because we don't yet have sufficient scientific knowledge to be able to form more provable conclusions about it.

Best,

Alistair

[zheer]

yes, but it seems like one out of every few musicians i meet are gay. Im not trying to drive this anywhere, i have a few mates who are gay who ive known since i was 10 so im not homophobic or anti-gay. but in my experience a lot of male musicians i come across are gay. more than the amount of gay people i meet through other ways i.e. not music.

  My musician friends are married and happy.

[gruffalo]

actually, i know more non-musicians than musicians a lot more infact. and yes, zheer i also know musicians that have gone on to get married and have kids.

[ahinton]

actually, i know more non-musicians than musicians a lot more infact. and yes, zheer i also know musicians that have gone on to get married and have kids.

Fine - so, if you'll pardon my suggesting it, could we now perhaps get right back on topic? -for I'm sure there's further interesting material to be read that's yet to be posted here on the originator's chosen topic...

Best,

Alistair

[gorbee natcase]

Could it be possible that gay people fair better in the arts than in say brick laying or boxing
as it is more inline with there personalities, as they are much more social creatures and have a real zest for life which is contagious and travels through in music 

[ahinton]

Could it be possible that gay people fair better in the arts than in say brick laying or boxing
as it is more inline with there personalities, as they are much more social creatures and have a real zest for life which is contagious and travels through in music 

I suppose that it could be - but then, if it could, the same could arguably as easily apply to many other areas of activity besides just the arts. In any case, I would not wish to exclude the possibility of sensitivity in a bricklayer - and what about a cabinet-maker?

One real problem remains (and I apologise for repeating reference to it here) - and that is that a listener would have no obvious means of knowing the sexual orientation of the composer or performer/s of a piece of music just by listening to it...

Best,

Alistair