How far can a bad instrument hinder your learning?

[pabst]

(I am aware of the topic just below on the list, addressing almost the same issue)

Ok, here goes it.
Piece: Prelude n. 2 in C minor from Bach WTK Book I - Presto section.  Tyring to up the metronome from 138 to 144 for the past 7 days or so, but couldn't seem to get it right, even tho doing it HS was a piece of cake. So I said what the heck, Im gonna play an octave higher - and Tada! the thing played itself, and up to well above 144.
My piano is an old upright with stiff action, fat ressonance and its never tuned because I cant afford it, and somehow the very end of the keyboard (the high end) kept itself more crisp and in tune (mebbe the Revolutionary pounding screwed the whole low end for good) than the other. I was amazed at how active the playing was, not just mechanical - the listening process was far more important than I ever thought it would be, hence playing on the "singing" part of the piano made the voicing so much more clearer and the passage so easy. Has anyone experienced this? Is it time to get the eletronic piano? Any comments please.

[alzado]

Don't get me wrong . . . not trying to offend you . . . .

1)  If the topic has just appeared almost exactly like you set yours up, why not just follow onto the previous?

2)  I will say the same thing I said to the other pianist . . .  I can understand persons without the $$$$  to buy a new piano.   I find it hard to believe you "can't afford" to have your piano tuned.  In my area, it costs about $75 to $90. 

Best of luck . . .   

[steve jones]

I think the lower keys will naturally have a heavier action, so this is to be expected. My advice would be to try out some new pianos (acoustic) and compare them to your own.

If it turns out that your pianos action is not the problem, then I might suggest trying some exercises to develop you technique, strength or both. But to be honest, Im probably not the best one to offer advice on this particular instrument.

But I do know your dilema (I started the other thread). For some reason many seem to misinterpret this question, replying with answers like Alzado's. To clarify consider this:

For the benefit of academia, is learning on a below standard instrument likely to hinder development?

That is the question here. Not:

My piano is a wreck, what can I do about it?


If we focus purely on the question in hand, then hopefully this thread will remain on topic. And who knows, we may even be blessed with some well informed, constructive opinions (fingers crossed  ).

[leahcim]

If we focus purely on the question in hand, then hopefully this thread will remain on topic. And who knows, we may even be blessed with some well informed, constructive opinions (fingers crossed  ).

Why not just sign up another ID and reply to your post with the answer you want to hear?

[steve jones]

leahcim,

To answer your question - because I do not have a preconceived notion of what the answer may be, hence the reason I ask. I think its a fair question, and this is a forum for piano students is it not?

What does confuse me more though leahcim, is why you keep replying to these threads? You clearly have nothing to offer, so what is the point? Are you just trying to destroy these threads, preventing the board from hearing any genuine respones (ie, trolling)?

[leahcim]

Touche.

I did answer the specific question, it's a simple "yes" and IMHO its not as profound a question as you hope [it's a simple yes / no question after all, so I've a 50% of being right if I didn't know what a piano is]

I'd say a better way of looking at it might be Larry Fine's The piano book [I think that's right, it's mentioned in other threads] which will answer lots of questions about buying and caring for pianos - It's the book people recommend if you were asking "I'm thinking of replacing my piano or buying one to have lessons, what should I get? Upright or Grand? Which make? How much do I need to spend to get a good one?" as well as the tech issues with an existing one [i.e you don't need to be buying a new piano, you could look at it from the pov of assessing your current one] So it'll no doubt cover some of the issue you have about what compromises you make if you don't nip out and buy a grand piano if not all.

But you didn't like the answer and you're right though, the answer you want isn't from me so I'll shut up

[nicolaievich]

Well, my opinion about this is that the player adapts himself to the instrument with time. So if you play a bad or not too good instrument for a long time your playing will be bad or not too good. even, you can feel dissapointed or frustrated with your playing although you would play very well in a good intrument. So, try to study in a better instrument, if it is an electric piano, be sure to get one that seems to a real piano as much as possible.
I have the same problem, i studied in better instruments and my playing changed a lot...
Good luck!

[xvimbi]

Perhaps, the easiest would be to play a truly outstanding piano for comparison reasons. Go to a store and play around on a Bösendorfer or a well-prepared (!) Steinway or similar, so that you can see for yourself what a piano in good shape feels like. Also, take every opportunity to play on any piano you can lay your hands on. Draw your own conclusion.

Also, piano playing is all about creating sound (technique, piano), evaluating the sound (sound perception, eartraining), and then generating feedback that goes back to the playing apparatus to alter the sound until it is exactly the way you want it to be. Anything that is not up to snuff in this chain will hinder your development and needs to be worked on. So, if the piano is constantly out of tune, your sound perception will be off. That is probably the worst, because if your perception of sound is flawed, everything else will be too. If the sound-generating mechanism of the piano is flawed, it is likely that you will compensate with your own playing mechanism (technique). In the best case, you will be able to adapt when going to a new instrument. In the worst case, you will acquire bad technique that will take a long time to correct later on.

So, IMHO, the answer is a clear YES.

[pabst]

Don't get me wrong . . . not trying to offend you . . . .

1)  If the topic has just appeared almost exactly like you set yours up, why not just follow onto the previous?

2)  I will say the same thing I said to the other pianist . . .  I can understand persons without the $$$$  to buy a new piano.   I find it hard to believe you "can't afford" to have your piano tuned.  In my area, it costs about $75 to $90. 

Best of luck . . .   

I simply was not satisfied with the replies on the other topic, it's that simple! Theres no twist, nothing. I also thought both questions were significantly different.
And tuning where I live costs $150 (and no that's not 150 times a coca cola can, because its not in dollars or quids or whatever... its Brazilian Reais), and I spent half my day as an underpaid Journalist and the other half learning and teaching piano, hence my financial situation.

So, IMHO, the answer is a clear YES.

So last night I played on the Theater's Kawai grand and on an american Steinway (not the Hamburg one, so it was just terrible), and during the Kawai session it was quite apparent how the instrument behaved differently - I decided to get a new one then. But these are out of my league, I was wondering If I could settle for an eletronic piano - hoping it would fit as a middleterm between my beat up upright and the kawai grand? Also, it tunes itself 
I will be looking into this, even tho I never liked the idea of eletronic pianos. Thanks!

[steve jones]

Touche.

I did answer the specific question, it's a simple "yes" and IMHO its not as profound a question as you hope [it's a simple yes / no question after all, so I've a 50% of being right if I didn't know what a piano is]

I'd say a better way of looking at it might be Larry Fine's The piano book [I think that's right, it's mentioned in other threads] which will answer lots of questions about buying and caring for pianos - It's the book people recommend if you were asking "I'm thinking of replacing my piano or buying one to have lessons, what should I get? Upright or Grand? Which make? How much do I need to spend to get a good one?" as well as the tech issues with an existing one [i.e you don't need to be buying a new piano, you could look at it from the pov of assessing your current one] So it'll no doubt cover some of the issue you have about what compromises you make if you don't nip out and buy a grand piano if not all.

But you didn't like the answer and you're right though, the answer you want isn't from me so I'll shut up

Leahcim,

I dont think its constructive for us to banter this out any longer. I highly valued you contribution to my other thread, and have no ill will towards you at all. However, I feel in this case you were extremely negative, and didnt attempt to address the topic in a fair and reasonable manner.

But again, I have no intention of holding a grudge. I just hope that with the wealth of knowledge around this place we can get some truely insightful opinions (I agree with pabst, a yes or no answer is far from satisfactory).

Guys, the title of the thread says it all, there is no need to read between the lines:

"How far can a bad instrument hinder your learning?"

[steve jones]

If the sound-generating mechanism of the piano is flawed, it is likely that you will compensate with your own playing mechanism (technique). In the best case, you will be able to adapt when going to a new instrument. In the worst case, you will acquire bad technique that will take a long time to correct later on.

So, IMHO, the answer is a clear YES.

Ah, this is more like it. Thank you nicolaievich and xvimbi, I appreciate you taking the time share you knowledge with us. I do see your point here totally - developing you technique to compensate could be very damaging to long term development.

Pabst,

I guess we should probably start saving our pennies 

[alzado]

Pabst--

When you say a piano tuning costs about $150, and you say that that is in Brazil Reals, wouldn't that be about $40 in American dollars, since the Real is about three to the dollar?

Generally, I have found that the pay scale for service work in Brazil is somewhat less than in the United States.   So I would be surprised if a piano technician in Brazil would be expecting double the pay for the same task.  Of course, I visit there but do not live there, so I could be wrong.

I sympathize with your financial struggles.  I am sure that the cost of a piano tuning is quite a lot when you are struggling to pay bills.

Even so, compared to the cost of piano lessons over a year, the cost of a tune should not be that excessive.

You might want to try to save for it.   

I do agree with Leachim -- in this respect ------------- >

Your question answers itself.  A broken-down piano in poor shape and out of tune will almost by definition produce inferior sound.  Thus, I can't see how it could do anything else but hamper a student's learning.

On a different piano forum, a person wrote in about a piano in his college dorm.  He said that it is so broken down that a number of the keys are totally 'dead' -- don't sound at all. He wanted to know if it would be worthwhile to study piano using this instrument.  Isn't this somewhat similar to your question?

I really do hope you can either have your piano fixed up or obtain access to a better one.  It is clear you love to play, and want to learn very much.  Those of us who take a well-tuned piano for granted might want to feel a bit grateful.

Thanks for posting-- 





 

[leahcim]

However, I feel in this case you were extremely negative, and didnt attempt to address the topic in a fair and reasonable manner.

You're right - there's a lot of good stuff in this forum and I'm not going to pretend that I'm the expert here - you'll see the caveats in the posts I make.

But click on your profile and see how many topics you've addressed with the same
caveats and on topics you don't know either - basically I'm saying don't be a hypocrite.

e.g Remind yourself what you said in that 1/2" action post here about guitars and upright pianos and what you actually said in these 2 thread, not what you thought you said, what you typed :-
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12122.msg128523.html#msg128523
If you only want certain replies, either ignore the ones you don't want, or ask those people directly, or use PM.

The problem I have with you now isn't whether you bear a grudge - why should you - I answered your questions [and however much you might hope that you meant something or asked one thing - you said lots of very different things in the 2 threads] with the same answer and points as nigh on everyone else

It's that you've had the same answer and same points in these threads and you're basically saying "Thanks" to some and "$@#$ off" to the others - if it weren't for the fact that you're clearly not stupid, I'd just put it down to stupidity. As it is, I see it as dishonest for you to pretend you've finally got good answers when they are more or less identical.

But don't sweat it - you won't lose anything by me not bothering in the future - not the least when I say the book to read for buying a piano [if it helps Xvimbi has mentioned it] and you then start a "what upright piano should I get?" thread - what exactly are you looking for?

[steve jones]

Ok ok, I'll bite. But this is the last I'll post on this. If there is anything left unresolved I will only discuss it over private message (purely out of respect for the original poster).


"Remind yourself what you said in that 1/2" action post here about guitars and upright pianos and what you actually said in these 2 thread, not what you thought you said, what you typed"

First up, I think anyone with a grain of common sense knew I was joking about the 1/2 inch action. So please, dont quote me on that (as you have three times now) in a literal sense.

For the benefit of anyone following this, here a direct quote:

"As a guitarist it always used to make me laugh how allegedly top notch players could only work on their own instruments. The REALLY good players could make any plank sounds amazing."

This is purely an observation. I spent many years supporting my education working in my family's music shop. I interacted with literally hundreds if not thousands of guitarists. During this time I noticed that certain players (usually with over inflated egos) would attempt to blame instruments for their lack of skill. I never got this from players who I personally admired. They might comment that an setup wasnt quite to their tastes, but I'd never have known from their playing.

I cant for the life of me see why you have taken such exception to this statement? But to be quite honest, this point is too trivial to dwell on any further. Where I come from they call it 'picking flies'.



"The problem I have with you now isn't whether you bear a grudge - why should you - I answered your questions [and however much you might hope that you meant something or asked one thing - you said lots of very different things in the 2 threads] with the same answer and points as nigh on everyone else"

I think if you go back you'll realise that I never once argued with your main points. I simply took exception to you attempting to misquote me. After that you completely left the topic and brought my genuine thread to its knees, arguing a minor triviality way beyond its context. It seems you are attempting to do the same here by continuing the debate (see post 4).

The fact is I am allowed to offer opinions that you might not agree with. I stand by that quote, since to my satisfaction I have substantiated it.

Before I leave this one, lets be very clear on something - I am not arguing with the answer you gave, simply yours and another members negative attitude. See this quote from my first response to you:

"Please dont get the wrong idea - this thread was never intended to be controversial. Im merely trying to get some opinions on a fairly simple and straight forward question. Not sure why all the negativity? Maybe Alzado or youself could explain?"

Bair in mind that Alzado had just told me that the question in hand was ridiculous, Im sure you can see why I might respond is such a way.


" As it is, I see it as dishonest for you to pretend you've finally got good answers when they are more or less identical."

For what it is worth I will congratulate you for your genuine points made on my thread. Im afraid they were a little overclouded by your following actions though. Its difficult to 'thank' someone who is systematically destroying a constructive thread.


"But don't sweat it - you won't lose anything by me not bothering in the future - not the least when I say the book to read for buying a piano [if it helps Xvimbi has mentioned it] and you then start a "what upright piano should I get?" thread - what exactly are you looking for?"

To up my post count, pure and simple  (for the benefit of those watching, I AM JOKING).

I dont believe my other thread was a 'tell me what to buy' thread. I spent five years advising people on how to buy musical instruments, so I hardly feel in need of anyone to 'tell' me how to do it. Im purely looking for testimonials. If I could get them from the aforementioned book I would do so.

But there is nothing like real life testimonials. Gives me an idea of whats popular with students and teachers alike, and assists me im cutting down my instrument search. This way I wont have to waste distributors time by baggering them for demos. But again, this is so far off topic thats its wrong to discuss it here. Please do me a favour and dont continue this petty debate over onto that thread to.

Im sure you will have yet more trivialities to throw at me, but please if you feel the need to continue this then do it by pm. I'll be more than happy to have a little chat.

[steve jones]

... Double post, sorry 

[leahcim]

I cant for the life of me see why you have taken such exception to this statement? But to be quite honest, this point is too trivial to dwell on any further. Where I come from they call it 'picking flies'.

Different statement, different quote, different post. That should answer your question - I'm not interested in that statement at all. See the link I put.

The fact is I am allowed to offer opinions that you might not agree with.

Yep, but if I offer mine, I'm trolling? Although I was flippant in this thread - you have gone - and you have to read your own posts here "I am happy with my progress (grade 6)" - from a grade 6 pianist, who said a junk upright is better than a digital, to a beginner who wants to know whether a junk upright is fine - something you obviously never got around to finding out when you were Birmingham's premier authority on musical instruments - and find a teacher.

So yeah, you can have an opinion, but if you say junks are this and that in one post and ask questions about them in the next, don't expect the comments to be treated in isolation.

But yeah, when I saw the "I need a teacher" post and then the thread asking about getting a teacher, I thought "he knows less than he did before, so he's learnt a lot" I can concur with that having read a lot here. So I replied accordingly there. Maybe I misjudged you with that teacher post though - sorry to have been helpful if I did get it wrong

I dont believe my other thread was a 'tell me what to buy' thread.

If you're talking about the "which piano" one, I agree, but there are more posts now. I'd say you want folk to agree with the decision you've made to get a Yamaha But I can't, so I won't. There's plenty of similar threads - the first question you need to answer to get a worthwhile reply is "What's your budget?" if you haven't already.

If I could get them from the aforementioned book I would do so.

I'd beg to differ, it has an annual supplement as well - but I think you'd have to read it.
I personally think that's a better bet [because I don't believe for a minute you know a lot about pianos - obviously I'm wrong, but...] than doing a survey of the makes of pianos folks have got in here [because Yamaha will win in the cheap dept, you already know that]

[steve jones]

Its a pity you had to push it this far Leahcim, since it really need not be. But as you are now attacking me on a variety of levels I do really have to defend myself with honest responses.

"Yep, but if I offer mine, I'm trolling?"

Not at all. You insistence on continuing the argument and further damaging both threads might be considered trolling though. I attempted to end this several posts ago, and also offered you the opportunity to continue the conversation privately. Clearly you ignored both and persist on damaging the topic. Again, I never said a word (to the best of my recollection) against you 'on topic' comments.


"I am happy with my progress (grade 6)"

Yep, I am currently practicing gr5 and 6 pieces. Yet in many others threads I openly admit I have only played (piano) for 8 months and lack a good knowledge of the instrument or rep.



"from a grade 6 pianist, who said a junk upright is better than a digital"

I strongly believe that multisamples are not in anyway competition for a real piano. This is my opinion, it was constructive, and it was on topic. Infact, I felt my contribution to that thread was very sympathetic to the situation. Ironic you try to use it against me. I erge anyone reading this to follow the link and judge my behaviour for yourselves.

Btw, when did I say 'junk' upright? I merely suggested to the point that her teacher's upright (which her teacher had actually recommended herself) would be a better choice.



"to a beginner who wants to know whether a junk upright is fine"

I am a beginner (pianist), and have never stated otherwise. And again, I was merely after the opinions of the local guru's. I have my own views, but they are never set in stone. I acknowledge my lack of experience with this instrument, and therefore set out to educate myself. I dont see the issue with this?


"Birmingham's premier authority on musical instruments - and find a teacher."

Wow, deep breath at the end of that one. Birmingham's premier authority, Iv never been called that before but thank you for the kind word. Find a teacher? I have a lesson Sat morning. Btw, could we get more off topic?


"he knows less than he did before, so he's learnt a lot"

Again, you've completely lost me with this. Admitting that I need a teacher is a bad thing now? I have always claimed to beginner! However, as a long time musician I felt I could get myself started off my own steam (with a little assistance from my sister, a gr8 pianist). Again, what is the point? I must be thick, because I have no idea why you are bringing up any of these points?


"I'd beg to differ, it has an annual supplement as well - but I think you'd have to read it."

No, I havent read the book or its annual supplement. But on your say so Leahcim, I shall make it number one priority...

Seriously though, I do appreciate you recommending a text to me. But surely you will acknowledge that getting real life testimonials is different to getting them out of a book? Why do one when you can do both? AGAIN (second reminder i believe), this is a forum for piano students. Do you think it is fair to discourage new members from asking questions?


Now again, I will give you opportunity to discuss this further over pm (if you so wish). You should know that is the right thing to do. But if you continue in posting inflammatory accusations against me, then I will be forced to respond and send them packing as I have here. Lets not forget who is attacking who here Leahcim.

[leahcim]

Good point. Having re-read the thread I realise why

"Very out of tune, uneven tone etc. Its totally playable"

clicked the recognition chip - it's Ebay / Music shop stuff and the penny has dropped

Sorry I missed it earlier - mind if I use it as a sig ?

[leahcim]

Btw, when did I say 'junk' upright?

You said bag of nails IIRC - same thing, no? Different posts again.. I guess it's fair to say I've misrepresented you when I said you're intelligent.

So, I'm not attacking you - Saying you know less was praise - see Oscar Wilde quote - it certainly applies to me

I've already apologised for misjudging your character when you asked about a teacher in that thread, ok? Happy? I can remove that reply if you'd prefer though?

I'm apologising now for saying twice that you're intelligent without sufficient proof and thought on the matter- ok? I put my foot in it there obviously.

So I've taken it all back - now let's put it to rest

[steve jones]

Admittedly, a hastily worded statement. The piano is totally playable. Well, it took my sister to grade 8. Yet the lower octaves a falling of tune (probably about -5cents per octave). I bet anyone who plays a high quality, well set up piano would find mine 'very out of tune, uneven tone etc'. It kind of a subjective statement. None of my none musical friends are able to detect a problem with it.

But what that has to do with anything I really dont know.

Let me ask you a question now. Why have you taken it upon yourself to go through all of my posts, picking out trivialities left right and centre? Is that in some way relavent to this thread?


"clicked the recognition chip - it's Ebay / Music shop stuff and the penny has dropped"

Sorry I dont understand this comment at all. We bought the piano over ten years ago from a local teacher.

Can I ask, how old are you leahcim?

[leahcim]

Sorry I dont understand this comment at all.

When you wrote that I hadn't drawn the link between where I'd seen that kind of description and then I remembered Ebay etc and that you have worked in a music shop.

 Why have you taken it upon yourself to go through all of my posts, picking out trivialities left right and centre? Is that in some way relavent to this thread?

I haven't. I just read them in context as you've been writing them. You read the board as well no? Or is that the source of confusion

Can I ask, how old are you leahcim?

If you read the post you thanked me for writing you'd know.

[steve jones]

You said bag of nails IIRC - same thing, no? Different posts again.. I guess it's fair to say I've misrepresented you when I said you're intelligent.

So, I'm not attacking you - Saying you know less was praise - see Oscar Wilde quote - it certainly applies to me

I've already apologised for misjudging your character when you asked about a teacher in that thread, ok? Happy? I'm apologising now for saying twice that you're intelligent without sufficient proof and thought on the matter- ok? I put my foot in it there obviously. I've taken it all back - now let's put it to rest

Lol, oh I got it. The Oscar Wilde quote was very clever leahcim.

But now you're just being rude. Im happy to debate with you, but please do so reasonably. The fact is that I simply answering your points. Maybe you could explain why you seem to be getting more troll by the post?

[leahcim]

But now you're just being rude.

I'm not trying to be. All I said was, you came to the board seemingly over a short time you know less - I assume from reading and thinking like I did "erm, perhaps what I've done by myself isn't as far as I thought", no?

Plus the questions you're asking don't match your initial, what shall I say, enthusiasm.

C'mon - if you have to ask these questions it's because you don't know - and that's fine, no problem with that.

I'm not suggesting that you were bragging about being great - remember it's relative here. But your posts are the only thing I know - what else can I mention?

But let's forget what you've said to other people, ok?

In one post to me you're completely different from elsewhere on the board, to me, so I've apologised for misjudging the way you appeared in it. Evidently I was wrong there and with what I've said above. The odds suggest that's where I made the mistake, no? - and sorry, but the fact this has taken so many posts doesn't suggest you're reading what I'm saying.

[steve jones]

Ok leahcim, ok 


Im happy with the way Iv responsed to your trolling during these threads. Im not prepared to continue it, since it clearly has no contructive purpose (trolling rarely does). If people can be bothered to read this garbage then Im sure they will come to their own conclusions.

YAWN


EDIT:

Would you feel happier if I recorded some of my playing and posted an mp3 for you? Nothing I have said here about myself has been misleading. I stated that Im learning gr5 - 6 music, I said I was a total beginner. Next.


"C'mon - if you have to ask these questions it's because you don't know"

You are really missing the point on this one, BADLY. I ask questions to get other peoples opinions, NOT to get categoric answers. I started the other thread because I was curious to know what people thought on the topic. Same with my other threads. If you had stuck to offering your opinion there would be no issue. As it is you have chosen to 'attempt' to throw the brown stuff at me repeatedly. Anyone would react badly to this leahcim.


"- I assume from reading and thinking like I did "erm, perhaps what I've done by myself isn't as far as I thought", no?"

Precisely, no leahcim.  I never thought I had done a great deal, I have only been playing 8 months! Please forgive my crudeness, but this is hardly long enough to bake a turd is it?

However, I have been made aware of certain things that I feel may be difficult for me to develop alone, such as the correct use of TO technique. That is why I came here, to learn and develop. I want to ensure that my developmet over the future goes a swiftly and as smoothly as possible.

But I cant forget the previous 15 years of musican training, ofcourse I have my own ideas. The questions I ask a merely a way for me to test and evaluate my current thoughts. This isnt about the past leahcim, its about the future.

[leahcim]

Im not prepared to continue it

On the contrary you are and your edit shows that

I'd like to hear the mp3 - for no other reason than I download most of the audition room stuff. So go ahead, but don't post it for the wrong reasons  - especially if you've misunderstood me, because you're way beyond even wanting to see what I'm saying.

[steve jones]

Lol, yep you keep em coming quicker than I can reply!

So are you now critising me for responding to your very own trolling? And Im the hypocrite 

[leahcim]

Lol, yep you keep em coming quicker than I can reply!

On the contrary, If I replied before you, the posts wouldn't be in the order they are and if you didn't have time to reply then where have your replies come from?

With these simple statements you have nothing at all to gain from not telling the truth, do you?

[steve jones]

Leahcim,

I dont keep tabs on threads the same way you seem to. When I use the net I tend to be in the middle of two or three conversations at the same time. So forgive me if I miss a detail here and there (like you age for example, I have no idea). Im sure you'll agree also that it would be quite fatal for me to lie of forums like this. As you say, I have nothing at all to benefit. And with the likes of you around, clearly much to loose.

Now then, bollocks aside, I would actually like to ask you a genuine question:

What mic config would you use on an upright in a small (poor) room? I have a pare of small diaphram condensors, but Im not totally sure on placement. If I make a recording its likely to be overly dry.

But that aside, I think I will do this. I have a piece from an old gr5 (Lyadov, Prelude in Dmin, Op40 No3) list that Im getting comfortable with. I reckon if I can get a super dry recording, I might be able to liven it up a nice acoustic sampled impulse response.

Can I attach files here do you know? Or will I need an external host?

Btw, out of curiousity what dont I want to hear (they say curiousity killed the cat dont they)?

[steve jones]

"Where did I criticise you for replying? I just pointed out that what you said wasn't true."

Indeed, I had no intention of letting this get much past two or three posts. And with each new post the severity of your accusations gets deeper. I cant wait to hear whats next!


"'d say "8 months" "grade 6" and you're saying "precisely no" when I asked if you perhaps thought you were more advanced between post 1 and some of the more recent stuff."

Listen, I am learning gr5 and 6 pieces. Get over it. This isnt something Im trying to brag about, its the truth. I dont think Im anything but a beginner (pianist). I just liked some of the pieces and found that with a little graft I could play them to an acceptable standard (for my own requirements at least). I cant offer you anything other than the truth leahcim. Please believe me that I do know what you're saying here. But it is not the case.

I even started a thread asking if I should go back and learn previous grades, did I not? You seem be very selective about the quotes you make leahcim, which I half the reason I still here replying to you.


"read it, it's just an exchange of posts, yours seem a little long and a bit usenet in the way you cut up the replies line by line and say "trolling" every 3 word"

From the top:

Your posts (and my replies) are grossly off topic. Hence they are inappropriate. HENCE why I suggested we discuss it in private.

I like to answer posts point by point, purely for clarity.

The way you have behaved on this thread is consistent with the definition of trolling.

Cant say fairer than that can I?

[steve jones]

Im sorry, I have I missed something?

Are you now deleting entire sections from you posts after they have been quoted back to you?

Do you realise that this is prime troll behaviour?

Are you going to answer any of my questions, the way I have patiently answered yours?

[leahcim]

What mic config would you use on an upright in a small (poor) room? I have a pare of small diaphram condensors, but Im not totally sure on placement. If I make a recording its likely to be overly dry.

I dunno. I'd use a creative soundblaster one because that's all I have I bet if you search someone has posted about it.

Can I attach files here do you know? Or will I need an external host?

I think you can attach up to 12mb in the audition room - there's a sticky post at the top that explains how.

[leahcim]

Im sorry, I have I missed something?

Are you now deleting entire sections from you posts after they have been quoted back to you?

I edited out, and then posted the reply to your mic / mp3 questions - because I didn't see the point of carrying it on and you have said numerous times that you didn't want to and you seemed to have changed the topic and dropped it.

At the time you hadn't replied and like it said - it's pretty clear that you're not being objective because of who is posting but no, sorry, I don't buy at all that you are grade 6 piano after 8 months without a teacher, however long you played the guitar or worked in a music shop, and I thought just about every post I've made this morning has pretty much been making the point that your recent posts seemed to have reached the same conclusion. As I said it seems ever more evident that I misjudged you when you wrote your teacher question and that's why I retracted what I wrote there and apologised for replying to it, remember?

I play extracts from pieces that are past grade 8, and bits of mozart, beethoven, chopin it's called "kidding myself" not "being grade n" - but you are not me, I could be wrong, but let's drop it.

[steve jones]

Splendid. I shall do that when I get half a second, purely as an academic exercise. Believe it or not I have a degree in audio tech, and hope to do an MSc next year. I should really learn the brush up on my (none exsistent) tracking skills!

[steve jones]

I edited out, and then posted the reply to your mic / mp3 questions - because I didn't see the point of carrying it on and you have said numerous times that you didn't want to and you seemed to have changed the topic and dropped it.

At the time you hadn't replied.

Leahcim,

I have actually developed quite a fondness for you during this thread (honestly!). I do enjoy a good debate, even if it is completely void of direction. Towards then end you did actually come out with some decent well though points.

I look forward to hearing your comments on my playing soon (and please be gentle).

But now I seriously do have to go. I have to work in four hours, and Im going for a power kip.

Night 

[leahcim]

I look forward to hearing your comments on my playing soon (and please be gentle).

Ok, I shall listen, but I shan't comment, I'm not qualified to judge your playing.

Although I have a sneaky feeling it will sound out of tune and uneven for some reason...

Towards then end you did actually come out with some decent well though points.

Ha, I guess this is where we came in - if I cared enough to bite earlier on, you've certainly convinced me that I needn't worry what marks out of 10 you choose give posts, ok

[jeremyjchilds]

Holy Carowleeee

Try PM

To get back on topic, I think that we can relate this to driving.

If you were a performance race car driver...could you improve your skills meaningfully in a tercel?


Yes and no...

Yes because you can still practice the Rudiments of performance driving (drift angles, speed management, reflexes)

No because You will lack confidence in what a performance machine is able to actually achieve. You will miss out on many possibilities for fine tuned skill development that are simply not possible in an inferior machine.

[leahcim]

What if the car has no petrol and the engine has blown a gasket?

What about grand turismo 3? Is that the digital piano of racing car drivers?

[steve jones]

Holy Carowleeee

Try PM

To get back on topic, I think that we can relate this to driving.

If you were a performance race car driver...could you improve your skills meaningfully in a tercel?


Yes and no...

Yes because you can still practice the Rudiments of performance driving (drift angles, speed management, reflexes)

No because You will lack confidence in what a performance machine is able to actually achieve. You will miss out on many possibilities for fine tuned skill development that are simply not possible in an inferior machine.

Hi Jeremy,

Well, yes I did try to stear this towards a private conversation (several times infact). But you know teen age girls, always right... 

But thanks for sticking with the thread. I believe (as I have from the start ) that its a valid question, and Iv enjoyed hearing peoples constructive opinions.

To extend the question further:

At what point would you say a quality instrument becomes a requisite of proper development (as it is for example, with clarinet at gr4-6)?

For the benefit of the narrow minded, I ask this purely to instigate discussion. I am not asking the question directly, I would like to hear a variety of peoples opinion.

I personally believe that gr5 is around the standard when an upgrade might be appropriate. At this stage it is likely that flaws of a lower quality student instrument might become apparent, and impact negatively on development. I base this on my own journey as a musician, along with my experiences with students of various musical disciplines and levels.

[xvimbi]

To extend the question further:

At what point would you say a quality instrument becomes a requisite of proper development (as it is for example, with clarinet at gr4-6)?

I personally believe that gr5 is around the standard when an upgrade might be appropriate. At this stage it is likely that flaws of a lower quality student instrument might become apparent, and impact negatively on development. I base this on my own journey as a musician, along with my experiences with students of various musical disciplines and levels.

Here is my take: When one can imagine sounds in one's head that one would like to produce, and the current instrument is not able to produce those sounds, then it is time to change the instrument.

I think it has little to do with grades and much more with musicality and imagination. For example, if we stick to a grade-guided scheme, one would think a child should learn a Mozart sonata on a mediocre piano, then is supposed to move on to a good grand when it comes to Beethoven sonatas. I think such a scheme is flawed, because, the Mozart in fact is more difficult to play and requires at least as good an instrument to create the proper sound, and in addition, it requires more musical maturity. A simple Satie sounds terrible on a tinny upright, but splendid on a large, sonorous grand. It's the sound that matters, not the grades (IMHO).

[steve jones]

Here is my take: When one can imagine sounds in one's head that one would like to produce, and the current instrument is not able to produce those sounds, then it is time to change the instrument.

I think it has little to do with grades and much more with musicality and imagination. For example, if we stick to a grade-guided scheme, one would think a child should learn a Mozart sonata on a mediocre piano, then is supposed to move on to a good grand when it comes to Beethoven sonatas. I think such a scheme is flawed, because, the Mozart in fact is more difficult to play and requires at least as good an instrument to create the proper sound, and in addition, it requires more musical maturity. A simple Satie sounds terrible on a tinny upright, but splendid on a large, sonorous grand. It's the sound that matters, not the grades (IMHO).

Very true, I mentioned grades purely as an indicator.

Actually I do agree with your post totally - the instrument is ofcourse appropriate to the pieces you play and the wat you want them to sound. But Im sure you'll also agree that recognising such subtleties of tone and timbre are rarely associated with novice players. The average 5 year old novice will distinguish little between the tones of particular pianos, I would imagine.

But ofcourse, that makes a dangerous assumption - that novice players know little about the music they play. Id wager many an adult novice knows much about the music they learn, and in which case would probably strive equally as hard to reproduce an authentic tone as to play the piece technically correct.

An interesting side topic.


Leahcim,

"sorry, I don't buy at all that you are grade 6 piano after 8 months without a teacher"

"I play extracts from pieces that are past grade 8, and bits of mozart, beethoven, chopin it's called "kidding myself" not "being grade n"

Lol, I had a feeling this would end up being more about your own ego than anything else. No one gets this bent out of shape for nothing.

But fortunately, you believing me isnt a requisite of it being the truth. It matters very little to me personally, but I dont like what your insinuating about me, just to bolster your own ego. Very poor behaviour leahcim.

Just accept this fact - I am learning gr5 and 6 pieces. I dont claim to be a grade 6 standard, but I reckon I could pass a 5 exam on the pieces Iv learnt. We will see anyway, since I plan to ask my teacher to give me a mock gr5 in a month or so. Im not ready to be tested on gr6 stuff yet, but Im happy with the way they're progressing. Its an old syllabus, with Mozart

Again, I only chose to pursue gr5 because I liked one of the pieces and found I could handle it. I sat through hours and hours of my sister practicing this stuff, so why not play the ones I like?

But I agree, lets drop it (as I suggested 20 posts ago  ). I just ask that you leave you ego at the door next time you reply to any of my posts. Im sure then we will get along just fine...

[leahcim]

Well, yes I did try to stear this towards a private conversation (several times infact). But you know teen age girls, always right... 

No you didn't. You replied in here. You never sent a PM. Please be honest.

I note you've carried it on again in the other post too, which I shall ignore - I know you didn't claim to be anything yesterday that was the whole point I made, although I'm pleased with your progress back up the grades since then

Good luck with your lesson.

[steve jones]

When have I ever claimed be anything other than a beginner? I mentioned I was practicing gr5 - 6 pieces, purely to give people an idea of level. It is you who have turned this into something bigger - clearly you ego wont let you accept this could be possibly be feasible.

Ofcourse I replied here. Do you think Im really going to let you attack my integrity on a public forum without responding?

Again, I have done nothing but respond to your baggering patiently and honestly. And believe me, it isnt for your benefit.

[leahcim]

Ok, last reply.

Nothing to do with my ego.

You just said you are going to pass grade 5 in a month [in a mock sense] I presume after 4 or 5 lessons - unless you've opted for more frequent.

That's cool with me. But it's not a beginner by any stretch [although I guess grade 8 is a "beginning", I think your question about an "intermediate instruments" gives us the sense you use the word] and far from being egotistical - as I have said numerous times, I wouldn't have replied to your teacher question or this question had I realised you were at that standard because it would be patronising - that's why I don't tend to reply in threads asking about playing Rach with "Try to relax more" or whatever.

So I can fully understand why someone at your level would have felt patronised by the teacher reply - and that is why several times I apologized for making it and offered to remove it - You didn't say "yes, please do" or acknowledge what I said at all.

I explained why I made it - because I honestly thought, yes, from your posts, that you had changed your conclusion about your playng - clearly you haven't - but that's cool.

As I said, I shan't bother replying to your questions in future, but you won't miss much.

Ok?

[steve jones]

Leahcim,

For the sake of the board, can we atleast attempt to draw some kind of compromise here?

Im happy to start:

If any of my posts have offended you in anyway, then I do apologise. Im still not 100% sure what you took such a profound exception to, but clearly I have upset you and I am sorry for that.

I came here to discuss  piano with like minded people, and to learn about the instrument and its rep. And I plan to do this for a long time to come. I hope to give as much as I take from this place, hence my enthusiasm for replying to threads that are maybe a little out of my league - if I feel I can contribute constructively I ofcourse wont hesitate.

I hope that my posts arent being misleading, this is not at all my intention.

If you choose not to reply to any of my threads, then that is cool. But I do hope that you'll reconsider. It would be a shame for something as trivial as this to prevent us from sharing thoughts and ideas in the future. On some level, Im sure we are on a similar wave length.

Incidentally, I did post up an mp3 of a piece Im working on. Its something I shall be working on with my new teacher over the coming weeks (as certain aspects are very flawed). Please have a listen, and feel free to offer your opinions.


EDIT: Just wanted to add that Im not sure which post you mean (about the teacher thing). Maybe it skipped my memory. I had no intention of ignoring you on this one, but my apologies for any confusion. If you point me in the direction of the post/s in question, I'll happily respond.

[leahcim]

but clearly I have upset you and I am sorry for that.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that Im not sure which post you mean (about the teacher thing). Maybe it skipped my memory. I had no intention of ignoring you on this one, but my apologies for any confusion. If you point me in the direction of the post/s in question, I'll happily respond.

You haven't upset me at all - I don't understand the big deal you're making about the thread TBH. Read it again mebbe, what's the fuss?

As for the teacher thing, you started a thread asking about finding a quality teacher, I replied and you said "Excellent post" or something similar - Now you don't remember posting it, or the replies you had at all? Like I say, I made a mistake replying there, for reasons that this thread has discussed at length if you choose to read and remember these posts and offered much earlier to remove that reply.

Here it is
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12324.0.html

I do have a question about that thread though, you've found a teacher - tell us more - reply in that thread if you prefer - is this just a trial lesson as part of your quest to find one? Or have you found one that's on the same page as the things you agreed with me that you were looking for - if so, what did they say etc?

[alzado]

Why hasn't anyone attacked me?

I disagreed with the original poster, and may have even been rude.

I feel left out . . . .  and rather hurt.

[steve jones]

Leahcim,

No, i remember the thread, and replying to your post. Its just you said about wanting to remove your post, and that I had ignored this. Not sure why you think Id have been offended by that, as I wasnt in the slightest? I thought it was a great reply, hence why I thanked you for it. No problems regarding that thread at all.

The only thing I found patronising was you trying to insinuate that Id exaggerated the level of my playing. I was a little offended by this, as it really isnt the case what so ever (although I can see how you might draw such a conclusion). I dont think Iv been anything other than honest with the claims Iv made.


"I do have a question about that thread though, you've found a teacher - tell us more - reply in that thread if you prefer - is this just a trial lesson as part of your quest to find one? Or have you found one that's on the same page as the things you agreed with me that you were looking for - if so, what did they say etc?"

Its the same teacher that taught my early guitar lessons, and my sister in piano. She's been teaching piano for ever! I wasnt sure whether to try her or not, since she has arthritic problems with her hands - I particularly wanted to see some of the virtuoso techniques demonstrated. But I decided to go down and see her again, and it went fine.   I played some pieces, and it went from there. For the first month Iv asked her to work with me on the gr5 pieces Iv leant (to get everything up to scratch). Then I hope to work through the g6 pieces Iv started, and also do some technique work.

I'll let you know more as time goes on.


alzado,

Im sorry Iv been spending a little too much time with leahcim, would you like to dance? 

Actually, lets not, cuz Im all argued out from this thread! Although I felt you initial responses were not appropriate, your later response was great, and I appreciate it. I do feel that between the pointless banter, we have got some very engaging replies.

Btw, what ever happened to the original poster? I think they must have run for cover 

[steve jones]

Leahcim,

"if you're 37 [or even if you're not] it's self evident which sounds better"

Gotcha, I hadnt realised that this was your age. Can I ask, are you male of female (dont know why, I had imagined you female)?

How long have you been tinkling the ole ivories?

[allthumbs]

Greetings steve jones and leahcim

With all due respect, do the two of you ever listen to yourselves. I counted approximately 15 posts each between the two of you countering what the other one had just posted. It's like the rest of us trying to get in a word edge wise, if it were a converstion on a street corner!


I don't mind someone making the odd constructive criticism to someone's post BUT when it gets to the number of posts as in this thread, perhaps the two of you should take up your discussion privately. I don't really want to be a part of it. (I know I don't have to read them).

Just my opinion.

BTW, I thought the thread's question was a good one.


Cheers

allthumbs

[steve jones]

Wow, you actually read all that! Congrats, I'd have fell into a deep coma after the first couple of replies.

And I do get your point totally. The debate was completely nonproductive, as there was infact no point at all. But when you consider that I actually started the original thread, and had it completely destroyed, Im sure you can see my motivation to fight my corner.

Very few accusations came from me (infact, did any?). I merely wanted to stop my name from being covered literally in the brown stuff (something I too would have prefered to have done private, and requested several times). I probably should have just ignored - guess thats a weakness I have, cant sit on my hands when people talk shite (particular about me!).

But I think we have come to an understanding now, and I sincerely hope that we can both contribute together constructively in future threads.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts on the original question? Do you have anything ontopici thoughts, or did you just feel the need have a dig?