How valuable, if at all, are technical exercises?

[eddie92099]

As a student I have for the most part avoided technical exercises and scales except for when they are required in exams etc. even though I want to be a professional pianist. This is because I feel that preparing a technique for absolutely anything by doing these kind of exercises is like learning the entire piano repertory and being only tested on Mozart. Why is it important to play double thirds if you are never going to play a piece that requires them?
I know that Ashkenazy doesn't do any exercises either (although I am not comparing our techniques!) but rather he says he gets all the technique he needs from the pieces he plays. What are other peoples thoughts on this topic?
Ed

[NetherMagic]

eddie personally i think that in order to develop good technique and musicality, one must play all varieties of music.  Yes, that includes, scales, appreggios, and all those.  But just playing bare scales won't get you the technique.  You havta also play stuff like chopin, bach, beethoven, liszt, everything if you wanna get good.  If you don't do technique, it's sorta like doing addition without knowing the numbers... so I recommend you play all kinds of music if possible, hanon, czerny, bach, chopin, and yea you get my point

[eddie92099]

Yes but many of the exercises available e.g. Hanon's School of Virtuosity have nothing musical about them, they are just about developing certain aspects of technique. I still fail to see how learning to play the quickest double thirds will help anyone in a Mozart sonata,
Ed

[BuyBuy]

Learning the quickest double thirds probably won't help you much in a Mozart sonata, but wait till you try Liszt "Feux follets"...

Exercices won't work for everything, but they give you the tools for a specific need.

[eddie92099]

Yes I understand this, I was just using double thirds as an example. Of course if I learn Feux follets or the Chopin Etude in thirds, then I will need to be able to play thirds well, but why not just learn this technique by practising the passages in these pieces when I learn them? Furthermore, there are many exercises in techniques which are seldom used in any pieces in the standard reportoire - why spend time on these? Additionally, depending on the type of piece an altogether different fingering should be used in the piece than specified in technical exercises (e.g. the chromatic scales in La Campanella should not be played with the same fingering as a chromatic scale would be played in an exam as the scales in La Campanella should be faster even though evenness is sacrificed),
Ed

[david]

I have done some technical exercises: Hanon,Czerny, Cramer, scales, arpeggios and I can say I've learnt more about technique, with other artistical pieces that with these exercises.
And I also think there is a difference between mechanical and technical problems.I don't know if you're speaking about mechanical or technical.In my opinion the mechanical exercices gives you the way to resolve a technical problem.
Have a nice day
David

[eddie92099]

And if there is no problem to resolve, do these exercises become merely wasted time?
Ed

[NetherMagic]

eddie unless you're liszt or somebody else, there are always problems

hey i bet liszt had technical problems as well but it's just that it's 100 times less often and less frustrating as ours!

and if there aren't any problems, might as well not do scales or anything and sightread every piece perfectly!

[eddie92099]

So are exercises only good as an extremely thorough means of preparation for a problematic section? Why not just practise this section instead of how to do it competently in different keys/rhythms/tempi etc.?
Ed

[NetherMagic]

eddie sometimes the problems might not be with the passage, sometimes it might be with your speed or accuracy etc with playing the passage

for most ppl playing the passage itself might not be enough to improve on these things, so therefore exercises help out with the overall agility and other stuff.

newayz if it doesn't work for you then don't play it, it's different for everyone    well at least i need it i think

[Jo]

Why do athletes work out at the gym. Why do they stretch before they do work?

Scales and exercises help to build up strength and teach your fingers to move smoothly across the keyboard (or whatever technique you're working on). It's about being prepared for anything.

Playing Mozart and the like takes quite an amount of mental stimulation and emotion. If you're practising for an hour or two at a time, that's a long time to be 'switched on'.

Bland boring scales and exercises let you warm up, test your agility, strengthen and tone the muscles without the emotional labour that goes in to playing Mozart.

Ed, if you don't fint this important, then don't do them. You seem to have a pretty strong opinion on the subject already, but I find scales and exercises invaluable.

As a child, I was too lazy to do them and my technique was a little sloppy as a result. As an adult, and a teacher, I practise them religiously, and my playing is all the better for it.

I also find that around exam time, when students are forced to learn and practise their scales at a certain speed, their pieces improve as well. If you ask a student to practise a small passage of a Sonatina over and over, the chances are that they won't. If you make them practise a scale, the work they do on that will spill over in to their Sonatina.

[eddie92099]

Why would they not practise the Sonatina over and over until it is correct? I would...
Ed

[NetherMagic]

eddie why dun you go play la campanella over and over again right now and not play anything else until you get it all perfect and memorized?

[eddie92099]

I have La Campanella memorised, and of course I do not play it note perfect everytime - I don't sacrifice communicating musically for accuracy. I learnt this piece by playing this piece though, not by repeating a book of exercises,
Ed

[BuyBuy]

But I'm sure that to get the technical level to be able to attempt the Campanella, you had in the previous years practiced scales and exercises, didn't you ?

Which famous pianist, for as natural as their technical abilities can be, can say that they've never practiced scales and arpeggios to improve their ability to play ?

[eddie92099]

Buybuy, the only scales I ever practised were for my grade examinations which I completed 3 years ago, ad incidentally my scales now are very poor in my opinion. And as I said in the first post, Ashkenazy does not do technical exercises - if I thought they were usefull I would not have questioned them!
Ed

[Jo]

Why would they not practise the Sonatina over and over until it is correct? I would...
Ed

Because they are kids. They don't always do what you ask them to. This is a teaching forum. I was discussing why I teach scales and technical exercises to students.

Eddie, I really doubt you'll find any reasoning a good enough one to actually practise scales and exercises, but I would have thought the fact that your scales are poor would be a good enough reason.

Teachers, and students of higher grades should be able to play ANY scale asked of them, perhaps not at lightening speed, but it should just roll off the fingertips.

If you just want to learn pieces, that's fine, but my students get a well rounded musical education that prepares them for as much as possible.

My favourite teaching quote is this:
"Teaching is preparing your students so they don't need our help to be successful"

[eddie92099]

But I'm not going to play scales in a recital am I? What purpose does learning to play every scale fluently serve other than to become a circus act? There is no music making in a scale - I think sometimes we forget why we do what we do,
Ed

[david]

If you resolve pianistic problems, you won´t have to do any exercise, unless you want to waste your time.

[BuyBuy]

I don't know about all that...

I think that scales and arpeggios practicing has helped me a lot, for tonal control, eveness in playing, greater dexterity, knowledge of the keyboard... And scales are so much present in so many pieces. I think it's an advantage to know them well.

Now I've heard of pianists declaring that they've never practices any. Like Richter, who was mainly salf taught and had an incredible technique.

If only there was a single miracle recipe for piano technique...

[bachopoven]

Yes, double thirds and things like that may never be used most repertiore. But they may have some thing in common with the repertoire. I think piano exercises are fpr conditioning oneself like you do physically. But it's true that before an audition or a recital, it's better not to spend much time on excercises, in the interest of time to practice the selected repertoire.

[AZPnoGuy30]

Scales, Scales, Scales.  Just as times-tables, geometric law memorization and formulas, the conversation of Scales - to do or not to do - has plagued the musician for years.  But as any discipline (and we shouldn't overlook the inherent value OF DISCIPLINE) there are elements which, to some, seem useless and to others are life.  Here are my general thoughts:

1.  As a performer, if I choose not to master scales, and routinely refresh and perfect them, that is my choice.  I can simply master the skills as I need them.  Sure, it's a bit hedonistic, but it's my instrument and I call the shots.

2.  But a teacher, I have no choice.  I must be able to demonstrate any scale, arpeggio or other standard technique to my students - and do it with musicality, clarity, and speed.  Our job is to equip, not indoctrinate with ideals which lack universal application.  It is a phenomena of the 20th century to expect excellence without discipline.

Practicing scales to some may seem mundane, but if we expect to properly equip students for the wonderful world of instrumental music - then equip we must!  And if we do not, we are a sad lot.  

And let me speak to the issue of not performing scales in a recital.  Why not?  Isn't recital and performance - at least on some level - meant to expose pupils to the world of auditioning and public performance?  I doubt there is a quality university or college whose professers would not expect an incoming student of promise to be able to perform any scale with ease, and expect them to do it - tongue in cheek here - blindfolded!

Whenever I speak to judges who judge competitions internationally, they speak of how undisciplined and hauty American musicians are, as a group.  Perhaps rather than debate the merits of NOT practicing scales, we ought to trust those who have gone before us and master our instrument in every way!  Whether we like it or not, the vast majority of virtuossos would mock the idea of not  routinely practicing scales.  We should not assume we fall into the nearly microscopic minority of those whose great technique comes 'naturally' - and as teachers...shame on us if we do.

This post may have come across too strongly - and for that I apologize - but I believe that solid, disciplined technique is a very important element of mastery and excellence.

Yours Truly,
Regretably, a former non-scale practicing, technique lacking wanted-to-be-a-virtuosso-so-I-kicked-myself-in-the-pants and discovered the hidden joy and value of scales, arpeggios, and other technique!

Happy Teaching and Playing!
-Aaron

[tph]

I suspect that what I'm about to write has already been mentioned in one way or another in the above exchanges, but in the aim of added clarity, perhaps my contribution may help.

There is a French expression which goes something like, "He who can do more can do less."  I think this applies well to exercises and technique.  Naturally, one can derive plenty of technique from playing pieces, and practising that is undoubtedly the most essential for the execution of a work.  However, I don't believe that that devalues exercises.  I believe scales, arpeggios, etudes, and exercises distill many of the difficulties that one tends to encounter in the repertoire, and as a result allows one to develop and maintain a level of physical conditioning, which can be transferred indirectly to pieces.

The reproach that exercises are devoid of musical context and are very numerous is precisely why exercises are useful; they are concentrated in their aim, and are broad in their scope.  For example, practising scales outside a musical context can help develop the coordination for even playing in a more focused manner without the need to consider piece-specific expression.  These conditioned coordination and evenness, while not applied to the same fingering or standard figurations, are still largely transerable to pieces.  Also, because there are so many exercises, one can develop a regimen that keeps the body prepared for a wide variety of technical problems; it is precisely because a Mozart sonata does not test double-note technique that one should practise double- note studies.  When one does learn a piece which makes that demand, the body and mind will already be prepared, to a certain degree, to tackle it.

Basically, the development, maintenance, and transferability of multiple practical skills is the value of exercises.  And I don't think this makes one lose sight of music-making as a goal.  In fact, I think one develops a greater appreciation for music making when one can take certain technical difficulties for granted.  

While Ashkenazy may not practise exercises now, and may derive most of his technique from pieces, I doubt that he did not do or master his fair share of scales, arpeggios, and etudes as a young student.  And while there are too many exercises available to work on, and many that are probably useless, I think it's too excessive to say that working on a set of pertinent exercises is as daunting as to learn the entire piano repertoire only to be tested on a single Mozart sonata.

Hope that helped!

tph

[eddie92099]

it is precisely because a Mozart sonata does not test double-note technique that one should practise double- note studies.
While Ashkenazy may not practise exercises now, and may derive most of his technique from pieces, I doubt that he did not do or master his fair share of scales, arpeggios, and etudes as a young student.

Firstly, with regard to the initial point - ? And secondly, Ashkenazy did not practise scales or technical exercises at any age (I can't say he never did studies - as in pieces rather than Hanon/Czerny at a young age because he recorded Chopin's at 17!),
Ed

[tph]

Firstly, with regard to the initial point - ?

The point is made before the semi-colon, and restated in the following sentence (in the same paragraph from which you cited).  The point is that one of the values of exercises is that they can help to prepare for difficulties that one has not yet encountered in the repertoire, so that when one does hit upon problems in the rep, one will already have some skills to apply towards a solution.

As to the second point, I acknowledge that I don't know for a fact what Ashkenazy studied as a youngster - I am basing my skepticism from what I know of typical Russian early training, which usually includes lots of scales, arpeggios, and studies.  One would have to ask him directly, or find out from some other source, I guess.

Regards,

tph

[eddie92099]

I have met Ashkenazy and I also know one of his very best friends,
Ed

[tph]

I have met Ashkenazy and I also know one of his very best friends,
Ed

Sounds exciting!  While these questions are off-topic, when did you have a chance to meet Ashkenazy, what was he like, and what wisdom did he have to impart to you about piano-playing and music-making?

tph

[eddie92099]

One of my best friend's Dad is the principal oboist in the Philharmonia Orchestra in London (which Ashkenazy is heavily involved with). He has therefore known Ashkenazy for many years and is a great friend of his. Last year Ashkenazy was conducting the Liszt Totentanz with Jean-Yves Thibaudet playing (who I also met) and I went backstage in the interval. Ashkenazy signed my programme etc. and asked about my level but didn't impart any hige wisdom (there were many people wanting to see him of course!). I also was very close to meeting Martha Argerich last February (she is my all-time favourite pianist) by going backstage again but she cancelled at the last minute because her brother had just died. I met Charles Dutoit and Pierre Laurent Aimard though (the oboist told him that he had heard me play Scarbo in concert and when Aimard signed my programme he drew out the opening motif). Argerich is playing in London again early next year (Prokofiev 3), but with the London Philharmonic - luckily I know the principal trombonist!
Ed

[Roastie_FC]

OMG!

honestly!

A forum is to voice peoples opinions.
Eddy, here refuses to practice scales and so on. You've all voiced your opinion against it. Now leave it for Eddy to consider to agree to your advice or not. We should avoid useless arguments such as this as it only makes the other person self-defiant.
So just leave it at that.

[PianoProfBonsWay]

Hi! What a great question ~ and one that brothers my students, too WHEN I taught the USA methods, and being a piano teacher of 40 years ~ twenty years ago I found the right system that matched all genres, old and new ~ AND ~ the way it is presented ~ you learn concert level in the first year study that makes you a genius at the piano, playing old and new. And the exercises are FUN! ~ ENJOYABLE! ~ My students love practicing the Musicianship Patterns and Black Key Technique ~ contact me is you have an interest at: fastwaypianomethod@yukontel.com and I will help you know the fastest way like the great masters learned and taught.  

[NetherMagic]

PianoBrofBonsWay are you trying to advertise your products on this forum?  I read your other post about teaching 5-yr olds and you were talkin about the same thing...

[eddie92099]

With all due respect PianoProfBonsWay, I created this thread for people to advertise their opinions, not their services,
Ed

[TwinkleFingers]

im not what you would call a smart man but you sound very talented eddie to play la campella!  i cant get passed the very begiinning jumping all around the keyboard like that.  and my hands are pretty big too.  but as for excersices, do them.  It will prepare you for the future.  It will make it easier when learning pieces that use the same technique.  Your theory about practicing just the piece would probably get you by.  But excersice whether it be the exact notes of a piece or not will still be beneficial in developing your technique.  I myself have not done any excersices like that since I stopped taking lessons in school 4years ago. so im really being hypocritical right now and im alot more sloppy in technicle ability as a result

[eddie92099]

Without meaning to sound arrogant, I have never (with the exception of scales a few days prior to examinations) practised technical exercises and have not found anything yet which I could not achieve through merely practising the piece of music,
Ed

[tatiana]

Hey folks! Good question! I like that discussion. As I can see, lots of people believe in magical touch of technical exercises. You know, I do to!
Coming from the Russian school (mentioned before) with all this early traning, I had to do lots of scales: major+3 minors straight and combined-opposite, parallel tercia, decima, sexta; triads with inversions (3- and 4- notes), 3 kinds of arpegio (straight, broken, long), D7 (dominantseptaccords), diminished 7, and in the end chromatic straight and opposite (least favorite ones except D or G#, you know why). And of course, from every key in 4 octaves up-down.
I remember myself sitting at the piano by hours and practicing THOSE scales, having technical scales exams every month. Oh, forgot about tons of etudes I got to study - like the whole Karl Cherny, Duvernoy, Schitte, etc.
My point is: you hate it when you actually play it (I was crying at opposite chromatic quite often), but it makes you hands feel so good and powerful when you passed a lot! Now, when I had like 11 years of everyday hard training, it doesn't take me a long time to pass difficult technical moment, because my hands-shoulders-elbows-fingers, etc. are completely prepared for it! It's like being an athlete - you trained your muscles, it stays with you forewer: even if you didn't practice for a while, once you catch up and get in shape (it only takes several days, believe me) - and you are up again, ready and powerful! That's why I can play Rachmaninov or Beethoven...

I don't know, but I really admire my piano teacher (thank you, Lioudmila Yurievna) who made me go through all this scales-etudes stuff and encurage me to practice hard! I would really recommend technical exercises for everybody, that's my opinion (sorry for the ong post).

[eddie92099]

Tatiana, while I appreciate what you say I think that the same level of technique can be acquired through 11 years of playing just pieces. Additionally, you will (hopefully!) not be crying through this and you will practice creativity in your music making too (which is not so easy to do in Hanon!),
Ed

[Wired]

I'm with Eddie on this one. I rarely do specific exercises. However, when I get to songs that have difficult passages that are intimidating, I practice that section many times, slowly at first, then up to speed. Or, if there are long runs of scales in the song I'm working on, I'll practice those. But, I don't practice every scale.

-Jon

[tatiana]

Eddie, thanks for comment and comforting words:)))
I thought about this topic yesterday, and here I some reasons why people would need to exercise formally in order to achieve.
Let's imagine situation: you are a teacher and you are asked to play not-so-familiar song. You don't have much time to practice, you are just asked to show it (it happens a lot in my teaching). There are some chromatic -double third-octaves-repetitions, etc. moment right there, in the piece (let's imagine Mozart's Sonate C-dur #545 - very famous one, starts from:
c -/e/g\| b/c/d\c-|
(showing 4/4 time sig, movement up and down and length of notes)

All right, we have some scales and arpegios going on. And I would feel much more comfrotable playing this piece in 'almost' original tempo, if my fingers already've been playing different scales and arpegios, I just go ahead and apply those trained ones to my existing piece.
That's how it works for me: saves the time and effort to study this particular piece.

I am not pushing this theory into you, so you don't have to resist so hard. I am just explaining what does it mean to me. Please don't do any more sarcastic comments!

[eddie92099]

I see what you are saying but I don't think you see what I am saying. Technique can be acquired through studying real music just as well as through studying technical exercises. For example - if someone asks me to sight-read a Mozart sonata, as long as I have practised music from the classical style I am able to play it as I have acquired the suitable technique. Furthermore, it is extremely rare to find a piece made up of scales and arpeggios which are to be played with "exercise" fingerings. Do you not see that the exercises, while providing you with technique, do so in a much larger time period?
Ed

p.s. Wired - nice to see we agree on something! No hard feelings  .

[Wired]

Of course, no hard feelings

I think that the teacher's ability to sight-read and to know pieces can compensate for not doing exercises. For example, I am not very good at sight reading. However, I find myself being able to sight-read most large left-hand arpeggios very easily, simply because I've played a lot of pieces that have the same characteristics. I'm confident if I focus on getting my sight reading down, I'd be able to play most pieces displaying that characteristic on demand.

And of course, if you've played a wide variety of pieces, most technical issues that come up when sight reading a new piece would be familiar to you. And the more music you know, the more likely that the piece the student chose (or you chose for them) is still within your current or past repertoire

-Jon

[cziffra]

i used to really like the argument, "what piece of music is ever going to have THIS in it?"

then i discovered liszt.

[PianoProfBonsWay]

Ed

I felt the same way when I was taking piano lessons from age 5 - college years. All those exercise patterns - WOW! Hours and hours of practice, and I felt I could of just learned it by playing the songs.

Ed, I am a piano teacher and author of my own piano system, after studying European piano methods. I have designed a  1 year  or  less piano system that has 27 different Musicianship Patterns (basic foundation for piano) without hours and hours of practice and the music patterns are like playing songs. Then, using the my Black Key Technique, a technique that is used in all music for basics and improv's, and this technique is fun to learn. After my students has their performance and the theory understanding, they can play through music 5 times or less and have it sometimes in a couple of hours at the piano. I have been teaching this way for the last 20 years with great results. These are all the music patterns you will use in Mozart, Chopin, Bach and other genres and styles of the 21st century. And, from my excercise study ~~ enjoy playing all your favorite piano pieces ~ a more accelerated and aggressive way to learn -- LOVE THE RESULTS! Important theory and piano performance study!!!

The old Masters, like Chopin ~~ I have their unpublished works of how they learned and taught ~ I use their system of learning in my books.

Best Regards,
Bonnie Woodruff
fastwaypianomethod@yukontel.com

[eddie92099]

i used to really like the argument, "what piece of music is ever going to have THIS in it?"

then i discovered liszt.

I play Liszt and I don't play Hanon...
Ed

[erik-]

My piano teacher at the conservatoire never emphasized on technique. I never had to practise scales, arpegios ... except when I had to play them during an exam. She told me I would learn technique through the pieces themselves.

Also she never directed me on what to do exactly with over rational and over analytical terms. She first let me discover the music in my own way, then if I was stuck or something, she used to put my hand on her hand  or shoulders then play so that I could feel what motions were needed ...

I actually kinda wanted to practise more technical exercices, maybe because it would have been more reassuring. Maybe when you practise an exercice with repetitive patterns and all, and once you made it, you feel like "wow, I managed to complete it", and you then have the feeling that you have achieved some progress. Whilst with a real piece, you don't quite feel that you've done with a piece ... So maybe exercises have to do with giving you self-confidence ...

Now that I have grown up and look backward, I realise how much my teacher actually tried to conveyed in a very informal and rather natural way. And when I read a piano technique book where everything is analysed in details, trying to explain why this and why that, I just think "wait  it's what my teacher taught me", she just didn't use technical and anylitical terms.

[xenon]

Good for you all who do not require technical exercises.  I am truly proud of you all!  I have played oodles of technique for the technical requirements of the RCM exam (namely, 478/day in grade 10) and it has helped me.  It has given my fingers the dexterity and utilities I need to learn and practice music with more facility and efficiency.  The skills I have learned has helped me tremendously.  I can actually learn an ARCT level piece within 1 to 2 weeks to a good level (w/o memorization, that's a different story ), and I would have to credit the technical exercises.  I don't have to spend time on the technically-demanding aspects, and I can focus more on the notes, and ultimately, the music.

Good luck to all

[eddie92099]

Good for you all who do not require technical exercises.  I am truly proud of you all!

Thanks (I think!),
Ed

[xenon]

No problem .  I'll see you one day at Carnegie Hall.  Perhaps, I can get a discount ticket .

[JohnOgdon]

Ed,

Don't listen to the attempted put-downs of this pratt, i am in complete agreement with you. I myself have never worked hard at exercises and scales (execpt to sort out the basic process involved) and have not yet found a piece short of Opus Clavicembalisticum that I have difficulty playing (excepting pieces requiring a large stretch - I have small hands). It is perfectly possible to achieve a first class technique without ever approaching an isolated exercise - Leslie Howard never has practiced scales and I assure you that his facilility is at least 1000000000 times greater than his recordings in private. As for our resident comedian above, I find it slightly suspicious that he claims to have studied with Ashkenazy, yet cannot spell his name........

Can anyone spell Charlatan?

[JohnOgdon]

Also, Maestro Konstantinos, I see no problem with anyone posting a question on the forum that they themselves are decided on, as it gives many others (look at the number of postings) the opportunity to exchange ideas.

[JohnOgdon]

"you have a small brain"  - Ooh, sophisticated! keep trying, maestro, maybe something worth reading might flow from your pen!