Anti-American Sentiments

[lisztisforkids]

I am really starting to get annoyed by American bashing.

Just because somebody dose not agree with America's foregin or domestic policys, Schooling,  or American culture in general does not mean that its okay to go off on American people in general calling them fat, stupid or plain greedy. Anti-Americanism is approaching almost rascist ideologys among some people...

[prometheus]

I notice a lot of 'american-bashing'. But I rarely see comments you describe. Actually, I cannot remember any. I do remember a lot more blunt comments on politican subjects.

Also, what is the american race?

It is funny. If you critisize the US when you are an american you are unpatriotic or even a traitor. And when you are not an american and you critisize the US you are a rasicst. That's what fascists do...

Also, you name. I always used to think your name meant that Liszt is good practice for children and thus a good basis for a piano career. But for some time I start to wonder if it might be a name expressing disdain towards Liszt. How does one see children? As humans that are fresh, creative and learning humans or children incomplete, ignorant and shallow?

[jre58591]

i dont care about american insults. lets face it people: we deserve it.

[lisztisforkids]

. If you critisize the US when you are an american you are unpatriotic or even a traitor.  

The only traitors to my country our people that dont vote.

And when you are not an american and you critisize the US you are a rasicst.

Not true. Were on earth did you come up with that?
[
quote author=prometheus link=topic=17874.msg191125#msg191125 date=1147148417]
. That's what fascists do...

Also, you name. I always used to think your name meant that Liszt is good practice for children and thus a good basis for a piano career. But for some time I start to wonder if it might be a name expressing disdain towards Liszt. How does one see children? As humans that are fresh, creative and learning humans or children incomplete, ignorant and shallow?

America, fascist?! Thats pretty funny. I think you should be doing some research on what Fascsim is.


My name was part joke part satire... Have you ever heard of the cereal Trix and their phrase "Trix is for kids"?.  Also I think (even though I love him) that a lot of Lsit is imature.

[lisztisforkids]

i dont care about american insults. lets face it people: we deserve it.

Wehther we deserve it or not, it should not come in the form it does.

[Kassaa]

I think he means the "you are either with us or against us" way of thinking with fascism.

And btw, a lot of Americans are fat.

[prometheus]

Yes, the behavior I described is part of the fascist way of thinking. It is just one element of a society.
Maybe the main problem originates with you. I only called a small section of the behavior of part of the society of the US 'fascistic' and you think I think the US is a fascist state.

Actually, my country is No.2 on the world list of telephone tapping. Not only that, the contro lis also very poor, almost non-existant. Very little people here are aware of this. This is also a fascist trait.

[gilad]

at my former university a week after 911 i was suprised to see a hand full of people walking around with ben ladin t shirts.
america bashing also become the number 1 discussion topic in classes like sociology, economics and anthrpology.
when you are powerful you will have friends, and you will have enemies.

[johnny-boy]

"i dont care about american insults. lets face it people: we deserve it" - jre58591

It depends on whether you’re bashing the government or bashing the people (two different entities).

I think the majority of people in the World just want to be left alone (and live in peace). It’s the *** governments that organize and place its citizens “between rocks and a hard places”.

We’re all merely pawns of our governments.

John

[jas]

at my former university a week after 911 i was suprised to see a hand full of people walking around with ben ladin t shirts.
america bashing also become the number 1 discussion topic in classes like sociology, economics and anthrpology.
when you are powerful you will have friends, and you will have enemies.

Really? That's unreal. Where are you from? Anti-American or not, making light of the mass murder of hundreds of innocent people is totally sick. It just puts them in the same category as the ones who did it. I can't believe anyone would do that.

A number of people I know claim not to like Americans, to which I usually ask if they know any. The answer is always either none at all or very few. I don't agree with lumping an entire country of people into one stereotype - like when people say the French are stuck up, that's a pile of crap, or that Scottish people are always drunk, thats -- well, ok, I'll give them that one. Was feeling a bit delicate this morning myself...

Anyway, I remember when I saw Farenheit 9/11 and watched that woman put an American flag in her garden every morning, at the time I though, "bloody Americans". If some plummy British man with a monocle had done that with a Union Jack I'd find it hilarious, but for some reason her patriotism just irritated me. I think it's because what we see of America from across the pond tends to be the shallow, disgustingly rich celebrity side or the crazy religious or patriotic side. I suppose it's such a big country that you do get greater extremes than you do here in the UK, and I suppose people from smaller countries find it hard to relate to. And for most people, hard to relate to = bad. Plus, I think that Americans are generally much more prone to "drama" (for lack of a better word) and less prone to cynicism, so while they see, say, patriotism as an expression of their love for their country and, by implication, its people, the rest of us tend to have a bit of a snigger at it.

That said, I (and other people) know that these are just stupid stereotypes and mean nothing, but I suppose it makes it easier for people to vent their frustration. It's not just Americans who have to put up with it. If you meet enough tribal people from the Amazon rainforest you don't like you're going to start making assumptions about them, too.

Jas

[arensky]

I notice a lot of 'american-bashing'. But I rarely see comments you describe. Actually, I cannot remember any. I do remember a lot more blunt comments on politican subjects.

Also, what is the american race?

It is funny. If you critisize the US when you are an american you are unpatriotic or even a traitor. And when you are not an american and you critisize the US you are a rasicst. That's what fascists do...

Also, you name. I always used to think your name meant that Liszt is good practice for children and thus a good basis for a piano career. But for some time I start to wonder if it might be a name expressing disdain towards Liszt. How does one see children? As humans that are fresh, creative and learning humans or children incomplete, ignorant and shallow?

What he means is that the anti-Americanism he sees here at PS resembles racism. And as an American, this bothers him. But of course, you know this already.

There is no American race.

Of course you have noticed a lot of American bashing. From your unique vantage point you can see it quite clearly. 

[zheer]

The World is changing rapidly,the geo-politics is changing and adapting for various reasons , hence the reason why the issue  of race, religion etc etc is reaching  boiling point. I guess as individulas we should remain flexible and open minded. Though i have no American friends, and the only american i have ever exchanged words with are on this forum,  i can safly say that am glad am not American. Am also glad am not English.

[anekdote]

I criticize Americans for their decadence. It does not matter how the average American acts or believes, but by their collective actions they are decadent (just as by Nazi Germany's collective actions, they were Nazis regardless of what the average German believed).

We are/were the most powerful country in the world, and of the most powerful civilization. Decline and decadence is and was to be expected. And unfortunately it is irreversible. My fear is that we will commit suicide just as the Romans did -- we have no future.

[zheer]

. My fear is that we will commit suicide just as the Romans did -- we have no future.

   
   

[rimv2]

Really? That's unreal. Where are you from? Anti-American or not, making light of the mass murder of hundreds of innocent people is totally sick. It just puts them in the same category as the ones who did it. I can't believe anyone would do that.

A number of people I know claim not to like Americans, to which I usually ask if they know any. The answer is always either none at all or very few. I don't agree with lumping an entire country of people into one stereotype - like when people say the French are stuck up, that's a pile of crap, or that Scottish people are always drunk, thats -- well, ok, I'll give them that one. Was feeling a bit delicate this morning myself...

Anyway, I remember when I saw Farenheit 9/11 and watched that woman put an American flag in her garden every morning, at the time I though, "bloody Americans". If some plummy British man with a monocle had done that with a Union Jack I'd find it hilarious, but for some reason her patriotism just irritated me. I think it's because what we see of America from across the pond tends to be the shallow, disgustingly rich celebrity side or the crazy religious or patriotic side. I suppose it's such a big country that you do get greater extremes than you do here in the UK, and I suppose people from smaller countries find it hard to relate to. And for most people, hard to relate to = bad. Plus, I think that Americans are generally much more prone to "drama" (for lack of a better word) and less prone to cynicism, so while they see, say, patriotism as an expression of their love for their country and, by implication, its people, the rest of us tend to have a bit of a snigger at it.

That said, I (and other people) know that these are just stupid stereotypes and mean nothing, but I suppose it makes it easier for people to vent their frustration. It's not just Americans who have to put up with it. If you meet enough tribal people from the Amazon rainforest you don't like you're going to start making assumptions about them, too.

Jas

Handshakes are in order.

Ah think prometheus likes to skew the meanings of posts where there isnt much clarity simply for the sake of argument.

I too posted about the correlation of stereotyping Americans and racism, though is a absurd fashion.

I think the word we are looking for here is not racism, but prejudice.

Prejudice leads to racism and hate crimes. And what happen on sept 11 2001 was a hate crime.

Anyone who thinks we deserved it, celebrated it and/or preached for more violence is just ignorant. Like those people who protested at funerals. NO GOOD comes from things like this.

I criticize Americans for their decadence. It does not matter how the average American acts or believes, but by their collective actions they are decadent (just as by Nazi Germany's collective actions, they were Nazis regardless of what the average German believed).

We are/were the most powerful country in the world, and of the most powerful civilization. Decline and decadence is and was to be expected. And unfortunately it is irreversible. My fear is that we will commit suicide just as the Romans did -- we have no future.

The richest less than 1% of America hold more than 40% of its wealth. The poor in this country far outnumber the not poor and in today's America climbing from one social tier to the next is nearly impossible.

How does the majority population of hard working individuals form a collective of decadence?

It doesnt.

Decadence is populated through the media. People watch the crap that's show out some form of envy or to experience some sort of vacarious enjoyment.

Think about porn for a moment. Addiction to porn hasnt been higher in this country or the world. Why is that? Because this country comes from very prudent roots. Porn features people having sex in extremely free and unrealistic manners, and pretending to like it. Vicarious enjoyment. The stuff isnt being made because people are actually walking the streets and having random gangbangs. It's made because people cant.

MTV's cribs. Why do people watch it? Vacarious enjoyment.

More later...

[prometheus]

What he means is that the anti-Americanism he sees here at PS resembles racism.

Maybe he can give some examples and explain why it is racism. There is also a difference between the critisism being racism and resembling racism. In the latter case one has to explain in what way it resembles each other.

[mephisto]

What is sad is that the USA is a country created by racist.

[keys]

Anti-American sentiment is so prominent on University campuses in Canada that it is becoming a political ideology in its own right.  Part of it can be attributed to Trudeau's perverted sense of Canadian nationalism, but a lot of Anti-Americanism stems from American draft-dodgers finding solace as professors at our universities.

Anti-Americanism in Canada is particularly odd given that the USA has been paying for our protection and keeping our economy afloat all these years. Last year Canadian Parliament served as a sounding box for anti-American rhetoric, rhetoric that would  be called hate language were it leveled against any other group. And in a world with leaders such as Kim Jong-il, every Candian idiot with a guitar is releasing albums to bash good ol' GW Bush.

[keys]

What is sad is that the USA is a country created by racist.

Wake up buddy. In Canada, St. Tommy Douglas - father of our public healthcare, not dead enough -  strongly believed in eugenics. How about Germany? Russia? Britain? "No Dogs, No Irish"? etc. Rascism is hardly an "American" issue.

[rimv2]

Anti-American sentiment is so prominent on University campuses in Canada that it is becoming a political ideology in its own right.  Part of it can be attributed to Trudeau's perverted sense of Canadian nationalism, but a lot of Anti-Americanism stems from American draft-dodgers finding solace as professors at our universities.

Anti-Americanism in Canada is particularly odd given that the USA has been paying for our protection and keeping our economy afloat all these years. Last year Canadian Parliament served as a sounding box for anti-American rhetoric, rhetoric that would  be called hate language were it leveled against any other group. And in a world with leaders such as Kim Jong-il, every Candian idiot with a guitar is releasing albums to bash good ol' GW Bush.

Draft? What draft are they dodging?

Maybe he can give some examples and explain why it is racism. There is also a difference between the critisism being racism and resembling racism. In the latter case one has to explain in what way it resembles each other.

Tis prejudism. People often confuse the two. Though they are equals shows of ignorance.

Handshakes are in order.

Ah think prometheus likes to skew the meanings of posts where there isnt much clarity simply for the sake of argument.

I too posted about the correlation of stereotyping Americans and racism, though is a absurd fashion.

I think the word we are looking for here is not racism, but prejudice.

Prejudice leads to racism and hate crimes. And what happen on sept 11 2001 was a hate crime.

Anyone who thinks we deserved it, celebrated it and/or preached for more violence is just ignorant. Like those people who protested at funerals. NO GOOD comes from things like this.

The richest less than 1% of America hold more than 40% of its wealth. The poor in this country far outnumber the not poor and in today's America climbing from one social tier to the next is nearly impossible.

How does the majority population of hard working individuals form a collective of decadence?

It doesnt.

Decadence is populated through the media. People watch the crap that's show out some form of envy or to experience some sort of vacarious enjoyment.

Think about porn for a moment. Addiction to porn hasnt been higher in this country or the world. Why is that? Because this country comes from very prudent roots. Porn features people having sex in extremely free and unrealistic manners, and pretending to like it. Vicarious enjoyment. The stuff isnt being made because people are actually walking the streets and having random gangbangs. It's made because people cant.

MTV's cribs. Why do people watch it? Vacarious enjoyment.

More later...

[keys]

Draft? What draft are they dodging?

Vietnam

[arensky]

What is sad is that the USA is a country created by racist.

Who? If you mean that the USA began as a slaveowning economic society (it was), this we inherited from the English. The USA still has many governmental traits and proceedures in common with the UK.

[ted]

I think there is such a thing as I would call a memetic stereotype. The strange part is that although they are completely false, they are often encouraged by the very group that the meme degrades, and those who stand to lose most from its promulgation. The popular image of a New Zealander, in particular the male of the species, is often that of a competitive, physically obsessed macho moron who enjoys little except football, preferably involving a punch-up, drinking lots of beer and despising all sensitivity and intelligence.  It would be surprising if someone in another country did not express anti-Kiwi sentiments if all they had seen were these ludicrous images.

Of course it's nonsense; everybody with any brains knows deep down it's nonsense. Worse than that, it's damaging nonsense in the light of increased domestic and other violence in this country. Yet the meme persists here; indeed, it thrives. I really do attach much of the blame to the media, who so readily sacrifice calm, objective analysis of facts in the cause of quick, cheap emotional sensation. If nonsense is repeated often enough, people start to believe it; history tells us that.

Fifty years ago all we had was the radio and the paper which, by and large gave us a fairly balanced, objective coverage of events. Now we are bombarded with almost constantly negative graphic images, many of which portray trivia. There are probably thousands of good discoveries being made, worthy people doing worthwhile things in America and elsewhere that we never hear about. If they're reported at all it's in a couple of inches on the back page while the headlines are about a pop singer falling out of a tree, a film star having a baby and a sportsman having a groin strain.

My American friends are nothing like the people in their media; neither are my local friends anything like these embarrassing macho caricatures of New Zealanders. They're all ordinary people getting on with life as best they can in an increasingly confused world.

[ada]

The US has given us many great things, among them, randomly, are Sylvia Plath, Andy Warhol, gonzo journalism, Timothy Leary, Harper Lee, Lou Reed, J D Salinger, Michael Moore and Courtney Love.

However, equally randomly, this is how some people may view America:

A country that has used a nuclear weapon of mass destruction on a civilian population. A country that manufactured anthrax as part of its biological weapons program.

A country that defied the international community and invaded another nation. A country that used a concerted propaganda campaign (a calculated lie) to justify its action.

A country that  uses torture and defies the Geneva Convention in its treatment of prisoners of war.

A country that has large stocks of weapons of mass destruction and refuses to ratify nuclear non proliferation treaties, as well the Kyoto Protocol on controlling greenhouse gas emissions.

A country that produced Jerry Springer.

 A non-team player on the international stage that is bent on maintaining its Top Nation status.

These are some reason why people in some parts of the world have negative perceptions of the United States.

[arensky]

The US has given us many great things, among them, randomly, are Sylvia Plath, Andy Warhol, gonzo journalism, Timothy Leary, Harper Lee, Lou Reed, J D Salinger, Michael Moore and Courtney Love.

However, equally randomly, this is how some people may view America:

A country that has used a nuclear weapon of mass destruction on a civilian population. A country that manufactured anthrax as part of its biological weapons program.

A country that defied the international community and invaded another nation. A country that used a concerted propaganda campaign (a calculated lie) to justify its action.

A country that  uses torture and defies the Geneva Convention in its treatment of prisoners of war.

A country that has large stocks of weapons of mass destruction and refuses to ratify nuclear non proliferation treaties, as well the Kyoto Protocol on controlling greenhouse gas emissions.

A country that produced Jerry Springer.

 A non-team player on the international stage that is bent on maintaining its Top Nation status.

These are some reason why people in some parts of the world have negative perceptions of the United States.

Ah yes... the British lady (?) who was so upset about brit kids calling "chips" "fries".Do you have anything important to worry about?

BTW everything good you mention about my country is decadent communist shite that only illustrates your very limited world view, which is urban coke snorting 60's/70's/80's left wing fringe ephemera. Your list of great Americans pegs you as Edina from Ab Fab. Harper Lee excepted.   

Here's why we're great.

Jazz Jimi Hendrix George Gershwin Franklin Roosevelt (without whom you would be speaking German but maybe you would prefer that) Satchmo Charlie Parker Miles Davis John Coltrane Art Tatum Mary Lou Williams Jonas Salk Thomas Edison Benjamin Franklin Sequoia Emerson Thoreau Hawthorne Janis Joplin Clarence Darrow Stephen King Edgar Allen Poe Issac Asimov Francis Ford Coppola Charles Ives John Dos Passos Andrew Wyeth Roy Lichtenstein Dorothy Parker Louis Moreau Gottschalk Malcom X John Updike Robert Frost William Faulkner Eugene O'Neill Big Mama Thornton BB King John Lee Hooker Babe Didreksen(sp) Robert Johnson Helen Keller Edward MacDowell Scott Joplin George Washington Carver Nat Hentoff Charles Mingus John Cheever Arthur Dove Aaron Copland Edward Albee Billie Jean King Louisa May Alcott Jodie Foster Billie Holiday Fletcher Henderson Duke Ellington James Brown Thomas Jefferson and I could go on and on and on and on and on and on but I have to sleep.

Therefore I will merely paste a  partial list of your own nation's "sins" .

The Tower of London, and Armistar (1921), the British South Africa Company Police,(1896) the Dacoit supression in Burma (1885) , the Opium Wars (1842 -?), the Sepoy Rebellion (1857), supressing the Jews in Palestine (1945-1948) the Canadian atrocities following the Plains of Abraham (1757),  the Suez War (1956), subverting Mossadeq in Iran (1954?), the Mau Mau Rebellion (1950's), Malayan Emergency (1950-1965), Cyprus (1950's), Cromwell (1646-1660), Ireland (1400's-2005).

Indeed, you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Shoot your mouth off more carefully, next time.

[prometheus]

Franklin Roosevelt (without whom you would be speaking German but maybe you would prefer that)

You mean Russian. Stalin defeated Hitler.

As for comparing atrocities. That's nonsense. Both have been world dominating powers, forcing them to commit atrocities. The UK has just had more time to do it.


America is just more hated because of Bush'es foreign policy, which is a current world event. Nothing more. That's all.

Maybe in the end the US will have a bigger role in the end of human civilisation, either through global warming or nuclear proliferation. It's not that any other country in the world would have done much better.

Actually, with all these policies of Bush; a large majority in the world disagree with Bush here. Actually, many of them, who voted for Bush, do not even know that they disagree with him. And these are two politices that can be serious threats to the survival of human civilisation as we know now it. And they are the only two.

[musik_man]

Prometheus is right.  Without the US Europe wouldn't have had to learn German, they'd have had to learn Russian.

[ada]

Indeed, you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Shoot your mouth off more carefully, next time.

Don't be silly. This isn't a "my country is better than yours" competition.

For the record, I am not British.

And unlike many Americans I am capable of criticising my own country.

A country that invaded an occupied land and attempted to commit genocide against the indigenous population.

A country that allowed nuclear testing in areas were people were living. A country that had a policy of forceably removing an entire generation of children from their parents.

A country that backed the illegal invasion of of Iraq, and like the US is a non-signatory to the Kyoto Protocol.

A country that sold East Timor out to Indonesia.

A country that was lining Saddam's pockets with kickbacks even as it followed the US into war.

A lackey of the US.

A country that produced Kylie Minogue.

[musik_man]

Arensky, don't forget all those that had to flee Europe for the US.  Thomas Mann, Albert Einstein, Igor Stravinsky,  Arnold Schoenberg, Sergei Rachmaninov, etc.

[arensky]

Arensky, don't forget all those that had to flee Europe for the US.  Thomas Mann, Albert Einstein, Igor Stravinsky, Max Planck, Arnold Schoenberg, Sergei Rachmaninov, etc.

Of course. Why did they come to the US instead of other countries... I felt like naming native born Americans, since we are often considered to be an "illegitimate" country.

[arensky]

Don't be silly. This isn't a "my country is better than yours" competition.

For the record, I am not British.

And unlike many Americans I am capable of criticising my own country.

A country that invaded an occupied land and attempted to commit genocide against the indigenous population.

A country that allowed nuclear testing in areas were people were living. A country that had a policy of forceably removing an entire generation of children from their parents.

A country that backed the illegal invasion of of Iraq, and like the US is a non-signatory to the Kyoto Protocol.

A country that sold East Timor out to Indonesia.

A country that was lining Saddam's pockets with kickbacks even as it followed the US into war.

A lackey of the US.

A country that produced Kylie Minogue.

My apologies. Who else but the British would call "fries" "chips". My mistake. BTW while in your country some years ago I enjoyed a delicious wallaby burger. And again, don't you have anything else to worry about, Edina?

Everything you say about your country is true,  but who the hell is Kylie Minogue? Can't be very important. No country is perfect. But when I or my home is attacked, I react. You should shoot your mouth off more carefully in the future.

[jas]

when I or my home is attacked, I react. You should shoot your mouth off more carefully in the future..

Everything ada mentioned (except Jerry Springer) was directed at the government, though, and how often are their actions reflective of the needs or desires of the people? Not very, in my (limited) experience. If someone starts mouthing off about Blair's idiocies I'm more inclined to join in that start sticking up for him or reeling off a list of notable names.

On that subject, I never see the point in having some kind of national pride in a person. For example, much is made of the fact that JK Rowling is Scottish, but that doesn't necessarily make the rest of us great by association. So these lists of good and bad things that people are reeling off about various countries mean nothing in reality, except as a usually damning comment about their governments. You get great people everywhere, it's rarely reflective of the country they were born in.

You know, the only American thing that really bugs me is the word "gotten". What on earth?

[arensky]

Prometheus is right.  Without the US Europe wouldn't have had to learn German, they'd have had to learn Russian.

No. The reconstruction of the Soviet armanent industries and factories in the Urals and Siberia in 1942 could not have been accomplished without American and British machinery, assistance and technical help. Both the USA and USSR denied the facts about this when the Cold War commenced in 1946-47.

Of course, the Russians were responsible for their own military victories. But the Germans were defeated by their own arrogance and overconfidence, leading to the catrastophes (for them) of 1943 and 1944. Neither the USA, UK or USSR alone could have defeated Nazi Germany. The Germans bit off more than they could chew, and sowed the seeds of their own destruction.  

Prometheus will dispute this with spurious information and childish contradiction. That is his right. I will not respond.

[musik_man]

Arensky, you're right.  Without the US Japan would have invaded Eastern Russia and won the war for Germany.  I just wanted to point out that, whatever the outcome of the war would have been without the US, Europe would've been screwed.

[prometheus]

What? Is this a joke?

THe atomic bomb was never used because germany was already defeated. The germans used to have a nuclear weapons program. But it was not a military program. The germans expected to win the war quickly. If they wouldn't they would be defeated. The americans expected a long war. The germans moved their nuclear program to the civilian sector when they realised it would cost them too much time to develop.
Then, of course, they were also raided and bombed, a problem which is americans didn't have. The german nuclear weapons program was non-existant. But atomic bomb was continued to be developed by the US.

Actually Feynman said he shoud have stopped working on the atomic bomb the moment is had become clear germany would be defeated. That was his reason to work on the bomb. With hindsight he has said he regrets that.

The atomic bomb had no role whatsoever in the war against germany.

Germany defeated themselves with their arrogance? Uuh... Is this a a parody on my 'childish contradictions'? Seriously?

Surely all the countries involved played a role in the war. But you claimed that the US saved us from talking german. That's just not the case. As for may the USSR have won the war against germany? Pure speculation. But probably, yes. The problems of very cold weather, rough lands, long logistic supply lines caused a lot of problems. I do not think the germans could have achived succes in the USSR.

I do not trust you reply. I probably 'fell for it' but I just have to bring the correct information.


As for a Japanese invasion of the USSR. Stalin promised to invade Japan. He just needed more time. After the victory in Europe the USSR attacked several Japense Islands with great succes. So the US dropped the bombs. Actually, the reason why the Japnese surrendered according to the official documents were the quick USSR victories on the main Hokkaido Island. A reason to drop the atomic bomb could have been to have Japan surrender unconditionally to them and not have the USSR be a part of it.

I really don't see how Japan could have invaded the USSR. They were fighting the US and lost. Since the Japanese started the war it is hard to speculate what would have happened in the US did not exist. I mean, would they want the USSR? Would they just open a second front to help Hitler? I would prefer to conquer China or India.

[ada]

My apologies. Who else but the British would call "fries" "chips". My mistake. BTW while in your country some years ago I enjoyed a delicious wallaby burger. And again, don't you have anything else to worry about, Edina?

Everything you say about your country is true, but who the hell is Kylie Minogue? Can't be very important. No country is perfect. But when I or my home is attacked, I react. You should shoot your mouth off more carefully in the future.

Well this happens to be a thread where the issue of anti-american sentiment is being discussed. So I presented a view. Isn't that the idea?

Why is it that Americans like yourself are so big on freedom of speech but as soon as anyone questions your nation you suggest they stop "shooting their mouth off".  It's the doctrine of "I defend your right to freedom of speech as long as I like what you're saying".

I know many Americans are passionately patriotic in a way that not every other nation is, but don't confuse the presentation of a particular view with an attack.

And "Edina" . Now you don't have to get personal.

[gruffalo]

You mean Russian. Stalin defeated Hitler.

Stalin wouldnt have defeated Hitler without support from the US just before the turning point in the campaign in Russia. If you like, i could go into details (would do wonders for my exam).

[prometheus]

Sure. But you don't deny Stalin defeated Hitler. Actually the US waited too long. Churchill and Roosevelt had promiced Stalin a second front in december 1943 in Tehran. Of course they fought germany on sea and in the air but not on land. D-Day only started one and a half year after the turn around of Stalingrad, which was already won seven months before this agreement. In turn Stalin promised to help against Japan.

When you look back they could have opened the second front earlier. They surely wanted to capture Berlin before the USSR. But they must have miscalculated.

I don't know the details about allied help for the USSR war industry. If you want to give them that would be nice.

[mephisto]

Who? If you mean that the USA began as a slaveowning economic society (it was), this we inherited from the English. The USA still has many governmental traits and proceedures in common with the UK.

I belive one of the most important "laws" in the USA is something very close to this:
All menn are created equal and should have the same rights.
But the reason people like George Washington where having no problems at all with slavery was because they didn`t think of black people as real humans, therefor they had the right to discriminate them.= Racism.

And yes you got this from the english. There has never been a white population(if you exlude the vikings for some time) in the USA from before the british came there. The white "americans" almost eradicated all of the native american population because they didn`t think of them as real humans. That is why I consider the USA as a country created by racists.

I am in no way supporting the the europeans. Impersialism, slavery, racism, colonialism etc are the things that make me sick, and the europeans were/are huge practisionars of all of these bad belives and actions.

Afterall it was the same europeans who created the USA, and therefor I find it quite reasonable to say that the USA was created by racists.

[mephisto]

Therefore I will merely paste a  partial list of your own nation's "sins" .

The Tower of London, and Armistar (1921), the British South Africa Company Police,(1896) the Dacoit supression in Burma (1885) , the Opium Wars (1842 -?), the Sepoy Rebellion (1857), supressing the Jews in Palestine (1945-1948) the Canadian atrocities following the Plains of Abraham (1757),  the Suez War (1956), subverting Mossadeq in Iran (1954?), the Mau Mau Rebellion (1950's), Malayan Emergency (1950-1965), Cyprus (1950's), Cromwell (1646-1660), Ireland (1400's-2005).

You forgot to mention the USA  as one of Englands sins.

[lisztisforkids]

Wether if the USSR was cabale of defeating Hitler himself is not important. We should all be glad that democracy was preserved in the west thanks to the US, and Britain.

So... If Stalin defeated Hitler we can presume the West would be under Communism, and if Hitler one the war, the whole of Europe and the middle east would be under his control.

Kudos to the US and her allies!

[arensky]

Well this happens to be a thread where the issue of anti-american sentiment is being discussed. So I presented a view. Isn't that the idea?

Why is it that Americans like yourself are so big on freedom of speech but as soon as anyone questions your nation you suggest they stop "shooting their mouth off".  It's the doctrine of "I defend your right to freedom of speech as long as I like what you're saying".

I know many Americans are passionately patriotic in a way that not every other nation is, but don't confuse the presentation of a particular view with an attack.

And "Edina" . Now you don't have to get personal.

I am not suppresing your right to speak. Your remarks have a hostile tone. And rimv2 is right. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

And if American culture catches on in your country, you should ask yourself why? I sure don't know, and don't much care. I don't know why a lot of it's caught on here! When I was in Darwin that wallabyburger was delicious! I was dreading eating it, I had been petting them at a wildlife park a few hours earlier... couldn't find a cheeseburger anywhere. Oh well, when in Rome... 
but when Rome comes to you, that is different.

So if you don't like American culture getting into yours, what can you do? Ban it? Gee that would be democratic! Obviously not an option... right? No, you examine it and try to understand why it is catching on in your own culture. You will learn about your own culture from this examination...

Sorry didn't mean to get personal. But you really pissed me off; I will be civil and thoughtful if you do the same!  :)but

[arensky]

Stalin wouldnt have defeated Hitler without support from the US just before the turning point in the campaign in Russia. If you like, i could go into details (would do wonders for my exam).

Please do; I have two concerto performances this weekend and don't have the time to go through all that. But it will help your exam! Good!

[prometheus]

So if you don't like American culture getting into yours, what can you do? Ban it? Gee that would be democratic! Obviously not an option... right? No, you examine it and try to understand why. You will learn from this looking in.

It seems that people just like it for some reason. You have to wonder why. People just have to boycot it. I mean let it in only in in small quantities. That is the natural way. Whining and banning is stupid.

In my country we had a new news channel. They tried to make a news program more american style. But the program failed, the ratings were too low. People here do not want american style news, apperently. The program got scrapped. That's how it works. Instead of bashing americans you should bash, for example, Australians that want to watch all these american programs, or whatever.

[arensky]

Sure. But you don't deny Stalin defeated Hitler. Actually the US waited too long. Churchill and Roosevelt had promiced Stalin a second front in december 1943 in Tehran. Of course they fought germany on sea and in the air but not on land. D-Day only started one and a half year after the turn around of Stalingrad, which was already won seven months before this agreement. In turn Stalin promised to help against Japan.

When you look back they could have opened the second front earlier. They surely wanted to capture Berlin before the USSR. But they must have miscalculated.

I don't know the details about allied help for the USSR war industry. If you want to give them that would be nice.

WRONG .

 

The second front opened on November 8th 1942, in Morroco and Algeria. Ending on May 8th 1943 in Tunisia, the North African campaign cost the Germans 250,000 to 350,00 soldiers, equal to or more than the Stalingrad casualties, not to mention planes tanks and other equipment down the crapper. If these men had been sent to Stalingrad or Kursk they may have tipped the balance in favor of the Germans. After a brief intermission the US and UK forces invaded Sicily and then Italy, tying down still more German troops.

 While Stalingrad was the turning point on the Russian front. If Hitler had not become obsessed with Stalingrad, and kept his eyes on the real prize (the Caucusus SP) and the oil fields of Baku, our world might be very different today. This is waht I mean about the Germans being defeated by their own (or Hitler's) sense of superiority. Even after Stalingrad, the war was not won by the "Allies". What might have happened is conjecture. Still, it's very interesting.

And don't forget; the Germans could have had jet aircraft and V-2 rockets sooner than they actually did. They were so convinced of their superiority, they felt that these new devices could wait. When they were finally produced they were too few and too late. This is what defeated Hitler's Germany; hubris.

About the USSR war industry, I have read this in books. Also imagine dismantling/transporting/reassembling entire armanents factories hundreds/thousands of miles. There was a lag time before production was resumed. The USA and UK supplied the USSR with tanks, planes and everything else you can think of via the Arctic convoys to Murmansk, 1941-44. By 1944 the USSR was on it's feet production wise, but still using many American aircraft. This information should be readily available on the internet; I have my own battles coming up this weekend, two concerto performances. Of course, victory is a forgone conclusion for me!               

                                  hubris.... me?  ....  NO WAY!!!   

[gruffalo]

Sure. But you don't deny Stalin defeated Hitler. Actually the US waited too long. Churchill and Roosevelt had promiced Stalin a second front in december 1943 in Tehran. Of course they fought germany on sea and in the air but not on land. D-Day only started one and a half year after the turn around of Stalingrad, which was already won seven months before this agreement. In turn Stalin promised to help against Japan.

When you look back they could have opened the second front earlier. They surely wanted to capture Berlin before the USSR. But they must have miscalculated.

I don't know the details about allied help for the USSR war industry. If you want to give them that would be nice.

I dont deny that Stalin defeated Hitler, i was just mentioning that Stalin couldnt have done it without help from the US. Details about the war industry, well, it sounds strange but the US shipment of personnel trucks and trucks for general transportation (which were shipped in the masses) allowed the quicker flow of the production of tanks, and general arms from the resources East of the Urals. However, its rather difficult to establish whether the war on the Eastern front was won by the Russians because of the aid from US and tactical advancments and decisions of newly appointed defence leader, Zhukov, or whether it was because of Hitler continuosly cocking up.

 In my opinion, Russia (after many screw-ups by Stalin dating back to the purges in 37 + the mismanagment of the defence against the Wehrmacht) would have created the turning point after pulling themselves together, even if Hitler had taken appropriate measures during the Russian Autumn and Winter weather. One thing i would like to know is why historians discourage the argument of the Russian winter simply because "Hitler's intentions for Barbarossa, were that the campaign would end by September, so the weather can not be used as a reason for the turning point for the Russians".

As for lisztis4kids, Stalin did beat Germany, but this would not have led to a communist western world, because it didnt. yes, we did see the devision of Germany and the East become a communist state, but Russia were not powerful enough to take on the US and Brits, which is why the west is not communist. I dont think Stalin's intentions were to conquer the west.

Also for Prometheus, Roosevelt isnt the hero people think. He chose not to stop the Russians containing Poland as a communist nation so that the US could keep airbases in Russia overlooking Japan. Maybe you have more reasons to brand him a good man, but he certainly wouldnt be on my list for good American things.

[gruffalo]

WRONG .

 

The second front opened on November 8th 1942, in Morroco and Algeria. Ending on May 8th 1943 in Tunisia, the North African campaign cost the Germans 250,000 to 350,00 soldiers, equal to or more than the Stalingrad casualties, not to mention planes tanks and other equipment down the crapper. If these men had been sent to Stalingrad or Kursk they may have tipped the balance in favor of the Germans. After a brief intermission the US and UK forces invaded Sicily and then Italy, tying down still more German troops.

yes, i was going to mention that too. the North Africa Campaing was already well underway and Allies reached Sicily by 43, i believe?

[gruffalo]

also, back to the thing about Anti-American sentiments. List4kids, you need to understand the difference between spiteful comments and truth. Fact, Americans are suffering from a high percentage of obesity. Fact (just to balance it), brits can be considered synical and sarcastic.

i generally find Americans more friendlier than Brits, i just had a better vibe when visiting US than i do living in UK.

[thalbergmad]

While Stalingrad was the turning point on the Russian front. If Hitler had not become obsessed with Stalingrad, and kept his eyes on the real prize (the Caucusus SP) and the oil fields of Baku, our world might be very different today. This is waht I mean about the Germans being defeated by their own (or Hitler's) sense of superiority. Even after Stalingrad, the war was not won by the "Allies". What might have happened is conjecture. Still, it's very interesting.

That matches with what I have read. Hitler would not allow his Generals even a tactical withdrawal ans sent thousands needlessly to their deaths. I believe that he even promoted one of his Generals to a Field Marshall in the belief that he would not surrender because no German Field Marshall had ever done this.

[arensky]

That matches with what I have read. Hitler would not allow his Generals even a tactical withdrawal ans sent thousands needlessly to their deaths. I believe that he even promoted one of his Generals to a Field Marshall in the belief that he would not surrender because no German Field Marshall had ever done this.

Yes.