How do you REALLY build technique?

[sinspawnammes]

I keep hearing things about practicing scales and arps and Chopin etudes, but in truth, how do the hands develop speed and agility necessary to play technically difficult things, like fast octaves, crazy runz, etc.  In all honesty, I don't really play any faster or with better technique than I did a year ago.  I just have more musicality and interpretation.  My technique is still subpar.  Amassing a gigantic repertoire does help either.

I'm asking this because I'm learning Chopin's Second Scherzo, and the runs in that piece are ridiculous.  I would need a drug to bring that up to speed.

[e60m5]

The following is of course subject to the token disclaimer that this is all simply my opinion, and others should feel free to disagree and take issue with my statements. Having gotten that out of the way, there's one more preliminary statement that I should make (though I need not consider it in detail here) - I personally take issue with the term "technique", so will instead refer to "mechanism" here. It seems to me that for the purposes of this topic, the terms are interchangeable.

I think there are two aspects to the true development of mechanism. The first is the development of the physical apparatus. Your neural pathways must be sufficiently developed to allow for the sufficiently dextrous and controlled engaging of the piano-playing apparatus. Your fingers and hands must be sufficiently flexible and pliable. But readying the physical apparatus will not prepare you for utilising it effectively - just as, if you want to train to become a decent martial artist, you have to do more than simply lifting weights and stretching to build up the requisite strength and flexibility to be a decent combatant.

As to acquiring the knowledge and experience necessary to engage your apparatus effectively, which is, in my mind, the far more relevant limb of the question, I think there to be nothing more detrimental and counterproductive than the mindless practicing of Hanon and scales. I think that the most effective way to develop a solid foundation is through thought and rational consideration of the particular problems encoutered in playing. Once one arrives at a principled mental technique "foundation", and begins to fit problems into this foundation in accordance with its governing principles, one can finally begin to develop a holistic approach to the keyboard, and in doing so, learn more about those principles themselves, from which it becomes possible - in my experience - to solve more and more problems encountered regarding mechanism as a whole.

Sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for. For what it's worth, I feel that the only way to a truly transcendental technique is through understanding and not practice. Watching those whose techniques I would truly class as transcendental (Hamelin being the natural archetype) only reinforces my belief in this; I simply do not believe it to be possible to acquire such technique through practice alone (though, naturally, practice is undoubtedly essential for understanding).

[pianistimo]

e60m5 probably knows!  i'm no expert, but i can say that when i am relaxed i play better tahn when i am stressed.  it just comes out - and if i need sleep more than practic e- it's probably wasted practice time.

this article here explains how each pianist can be very different in terms of how they approach technique.  www.musicandhealth.co.uk/stress.html

instead of joking about drugs, seriously get some major exercise.  this is the best equalizing of how to handle adrenaline that i know.  u don't want so much that u are hyper, and u don't want to be without enough of it to get thru the piece.  also, it strengthens ur back.  if i were u - i'd at least get 45 minutes - and more like an hour every day of continuous sport (swimming, biking, jogging, running, whatever).

[Mozartian]

Probably just a simplification of what e60m5 said- but practice intelligently, fully concentrating on what you're doing and what you're trying to accomplish. That's pretty much the key, regardless of your approach via technical exercises or whatnot.

My tech is far from great (and possibly far from good.. heh), but I have been able to learn to concentrate more fully when I'm at the piano, and my tech has been improving over the past year (albeit far more slowly than I could wish). I think Bach is really good for improving technique- simply because his works force you to pay attention to what you're doing. It's impossible to play Bach absent-mindedly.

Just my 2 cents, for the little they're worth.

[lostinidlewonder]

Technique is simply this: A singlular movement of the body which controls a string of notes.

It is like eating with a fork, or chopsticks. Someone who cannot use chopsticks must fully focus their mechanical efforts to actually pick up something, but someone who can does it without thought and with muscular memory.

Learning any musical instrument has this exact this same procedure. With poor technique we struggle to control the group of notes, our hand wastes energy, we feel tired, or we have little musical control over what we are actualy playing and just hope we hit the right notes. The thing is there are infinite movements to learn at the keyboard, each piece has its own unique movement, however almost all music is built on chords and scales and general shapes and general movement procedure. Learninger and more peices will naturally improve your technique simply because you start to understand general procedure at the keyboard. An experienced player attempting a Chopin Waltz or Joplin Ragtime will sense what the Lh is going to do with the leaps before they even start because they can draw from past experience.

I use to be baffled how my teacher could prepare a concerto in 2 weeks for performance. Even if he had never played it before. He would always tell me that all music is the same in the end, just little changes here and there, in essense everything we play can be controlled by particular movements (our technique), once our technique is solid we can use it to memorise music because the movements nothing new, simply known procedure.

You tend to know that you have a piece down pat when you find yourself consciously using a single note or single position of the hands to cue a huge string of notes to follow automatically. This is memorisation, but to aquire good technique we must memorise the music, so that the technique becomes a natural moveent of our hands, not an hand(piano) eye(sheet music) coordination test. Sight reading technique is a different issue next to playing technique. I think the two are spilt.

[Derek]

I've found a technique that helps to improve speed in almost any technique is to do it in tiny, "linkable" bursts.

For example, doing octave techniques. Get your wrists nice and loose and then play octaves in both hands and only go down one half step as fast as you can, then relax.  then do it again.  then practice by hitting three notes, then four.   practice these little bursts and then string some of them together.   What this does is program your motor memory to keep your wrists relaxed while playing something really rapid....it will become automatic eventually.  Give yourself time---it can take a very long time to build really amazing technique.   DISCLAIMER:  my technique is not amazing yet, but I've noticed marked improvements every time I employ the "little bursts" technique to anything I want to get better/faster at.

[cloches_de_geneve]

In my personal view, which may well sound highly reductionistic to many, a good technique boils down to mastering the following three single factors:

1. Mastering passages of the thumb (for scales, arpeggios)
2. Aquiring finger strength and independence for 3,4,5
3. Being able to relax hand and wrist when playing

If you get there you have the foundations for a good technique.

[gee]

I think Hanon is a great way to improve technique. However, you should practise it one finger at a time, slowly. This, imo, is the best way to gain finger independence.

[thalbergmad]

I think Hanon is a great way to improve technique. However, you should practise it one finger at a time, slowly. This, imo, is the best way to gain finger independence.

The time will come when you will regret this one.

The anti - hanonists will be upon you.

Thal

[lisztisforkids]

Um... I just practice sclaes,arpegios/octaves etc, as this is what piano music is made of.

[stevie]

simply put - you dont win a sprint race by practicing jogging.

[steve jones]

I dont really know very much, so dont take my reply to seriously!


Imo, variety is the spice of life, and think that this could not be more applicable to technical acquisition. I try to do as much as of everything as I can, with the hope that 'total immersion' in piano will reward me.

Consider this - when a new born baby is developing, does it focus on just one thing? No, ofcourse not. It kicks it legs around, it rolls about on the floor, it eventually learns to crawl etc. Later the child begins to play, developing skills and motor functions that may only be required far later in life (or maybe not at all). At this stage, its all just preparation.

I try to be like this with piano. One session, I might sit with a metronome and do nothing but practice speed scales. Next session, I might work on a slow piece, developing my use of the pedal and expressive techniques like rubato and dynamics. Then I might spend time doing Bach or some other contrapunctal work to up my ability to play evenly and with good hand and finger independence. Next it might be exercises from a book.

And god forbid, sometimes I just sit at the piano 'noodling'. Infact, I believe that noodling is way underrated! Its kind of like the pianist equivilant of the toddler who wont stop running around causing havock, lol. Sometimes I will sit at the piano for an hour and play absolutely nothing other than a constant improvisation. It will probably include bits from pieces, bits that Im writing and working out, scales and arps, octaves etc, all mashed into a long 'play' session.

Maybe this is totally wrong and I should focus my practice more (as I try to do most of the time). But I really do think that this 'play' time is important, as at the end of the day, we are trying to develop coordination skills. And such skills are naturally developed through play, are they not? Its a bit like the kid who stands in his back garden doing kick ups all day - 15 years later he is Ronaldenio!

So I guess what Im saying is that SOMETIMES it is good to loosen up a little and just have a play around. Quite often techniques will be developed without you even consciously thinking about it. Infact, I might speculate that at times, conscious intervention might even hinder development.

Only when you hit a wall is it important to sit down and become analytical imo. You know, you are messing around with scales everyday but suddenly the progress halts - then its time to think seriously about the mechanics of the technique and how you can improve. When I reach this point I usually turn to my stash of piano vids and watch bits frame by frame. Usually you can find someone doing the exact technique you're stuggling with, and then slow it down and watch exactly how they're doing it.

But like I say, I know nothing of these things so take this all with a pinch of salt 

SJ

[Motrax]

I agree with both Steve Jones and e60m5.

I often "noodle" around (good word!  ) - I can now competently play "atmospheric" music at receptions, and occasionally something worth listening to comes out of it! Although I'm pretty bad at improvisation when it comes to anything besides slow, tranquil harmonies and silly little melodic fragments, I find that improvisation keeps music a little more fresh to me - it's alive, and when I return from improvising to the actual repertoire I'm working on, that music feels a bit more alive to me too.

e60m5 is absolutely right when he says that true virtuoso "technique" comes entirely from the mind. I'm rather tired to go into this topic at any sort of depth, but I see a lot of people here asking about fast octaves, or fast scales, or fast repeated notes - I think the entire question of "how can I play faster" is indeed the reason why people aren't able to play faster.

To play something hard, it can't be hard to you; to play something fast, it can't be fast to you.

[steve jones]

Something Iv noticed recently - you can definately 'get used' to a certain tempo.

Let me elaborate...

Say you start partice with some fast Czerny exercises. Then you stick on the metronome and do some Bach HS at full pace. THEN, put your metronome on a pretty quick tempo and try some scales.

Now, at another practice session, play only very slowly, like when learning a new piece. Nothing at all quick, maybe just slow chord based stuff. Then put your metronome on the same tempo as before and be amazed by how fast it seems!

Its kind of like when you first learn to drive, and 30mph seems like light speed. Then 2 weeks later its like a snails pace.

So what is the point of this?

I guess, keep speed practice to speed sessions. Dont play something really slow then try to practice scales at full tilt (unless you are trying to work on having your full speed at all times ofcourse). I tend to think of speed sessions as like one long warm up, constantly upping the tempo and building up bit by bit. At the end, I can be playing quite fast but it doesnt seem as if Iv upped the tempo at all as its all done gradually.

Btw, incase I havent articulated my point very well, I am not talking about the 'start slow end fast' method. Im talking about practicing fast stuff all together, allowing one to become accustom to the quicker tempos.

SJ

[richy321]

e60m5 wrote:

As to acquiring the knowledge and experience necessary to engage your apparatus effectively, which is, in my mind, the far more relevant limb of the question, I think there to be nothing more detrimental and counterproductive than the mindless practicing of Hanon and scales. I think that the most effective way to develop a solid foundation is through thought and rational consideration of the particular problems encoutered in playing. Once one arrives at a principled mental technique "foundation", and begins to fit problems into this foundation in accordance with its governing principles, one can finally begin to develop a holistic approach to the keyboard, and in doing so, learn more about those principles themselves, from which it becomes possible - in my experience - to solve more and more problems encountered regarding mechanism as a whole.


I agree with e60m5's response generally, especially the paragraph quoted above, but the problem is that it is so generally stated that it does not give much to latch on to, for those who want to learn more about the "holistic" approach to piano technique. 

My suggestion is that, for a start, they read Abby Whiteside's 2-part book, "Indispensibles of Piano Playing".  Although this book is easy to criticise in terms of balance and hyperbole, there is no better immersion into this approach.  I will admit that child prodigies and others who are highly talented will not need this rather intellectual approach, but for mature persons (I was over 50 when I discovered it) without the natural physical dexterity or the patience to endure Hanon, but with the passion and drive for pianistic accomplishment, as well as a predilection for mechanical analysis, it is a real boon.  I won't say that I'm that accomplished yet, but I am making (to me) incredible strides with some of the most difficult Chopin Etudes: #'s 1, 17, 18, 23, and 24, when both sets are numbered consecutively.

By the way, I have not chosen to take piano lessons this time around, because I recall that when I took piano lessons as a child, all the teachers  did was tell me which piece to play next, not how to surmount technical hurdles.  As a result, I had acquired virtually no techique at all.

Richy

   

[gonzalo]

The time will come when you will regret this one.

The anti - hanonists will be upon you.

Thal

It is such a waste of time to make the Hanonists see reality.  There will be a time when they regret doing all that Hanon. Anyway, I'll let Bernhard's post do the job:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Speaking of Hanon: list of links by Bernhard)


Gonzalo.

[steve jones]

I found Hanon exercises useful for the first few months of playing, just to get my fingers used to the keyboard. But after that I showed it the door in favor of Bach and Czerny. Now, Czerny I think is great! I dont dwell on it to much, but I do like to perform some of these exercises (if you can call them that).

SJ

[gee]

Oh wow! I never knew there were so many Hanon haters on this forum. Personally, i believe it has helped me tremendously. I saw some extremely long and seemingly intelligent posts on the link you gave me gonzalo. I do not think i'm smart enough to explain why hanon works, but I have found it very useful with the correct motions.

I never intended to practise Hanon at first, but when my new piano teacher who is a concert pianist promised me that if I practised Hanon WELL, my technique would not be short of his. Since then I have seen great results in how relaxed my arms and wrists are when I play anything. My fingers are doing most of the work now.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion, but it woudln't hurt to try Hanon (with the proper motions of course) unless you overexert yourself, which is the case with anything.

btw, didn't Rachmaninoff practise Hanon as well? correct me if I'm wrong. I just want to know if this fact at the back of my head is true or not.

Gee

[steve jones]

I dont think it is so much that Hanon is useless, rather there are 'better' (more effective and time / energy efficient) ways to develop technique.

For example, I know that Bernhard recommends the Bach Inventions and Scarlatti sonatas instead because:

- you are building musical experience and rep while developing technique
- you are learning many different motions (in all the keys!) instead of just one
- you are learning how to work through pieces and overcome technical problems
- you are developing the musical memory by learning and memorizing these pieces

In addition, one point that I have observed - when playing Bach it is imperitive to relaxe, or you physically cant get through the piece without cocking up. Myself, I have had learn to remain relaxed for this very reason, and this now is how I play even short practice phrases. However, the Hanon exercises are short enough to battle through tensed, and this can lead to injury and at best, bad technique. When doing Hanon, I used to get very tense and I would be physically fatigued after one rep though the preliminary exercises.

SJ

[gee]

Just out of curiosity. What are some of the ways you practise Hanon with? I'm talking about the finger motion.

[nick]

From years of experimenting and observation, I found that the gradual increasing of speed does work, BUT you must give yourself alot of time. There is no "speed wall" as people have stated, since there must be a speed that one can do perfect repeats over and over without error, for days and days, and then obviously one could then increase the metronome by ONE number. Absurd to think one could not. Problem with people not suceeding in this is they didn't stay on the perfect repeat speed long enough, used faulty fingering, or produced the sound incorrectly which caused strain and/or lack of clarity. You must figure out how to produce the tone where the hand and all muscles are most relaxed. For me it is striking the key with raised finger and only enough pressure to key the key down once the key is struck. So when you state it will take forever to reach a certain speed, just get "time" out of the question and get to work, one speed at a time.

Nick

[ramseytheii]

I keep hearing things about practicing scales and arps and Chopin etudes, but in truth, how do the hands develop speed and agility necessary to play technically difficult things, like fast octaves, crazy runz, etc.  In all honesty, I don't really play any faster or with better technique than I did a year ago.  I just have more musicality and interpretation.  My technique is still subpar.  Amassing a gigantic repertoire does help either.

I'm asking this because I'm learning Chopin's Second Scherzo, and the runs in that piece are ridiculous.  I would need a drug to bring that up to speed.

About the Chopin Scherzo, Cortot published a "working edition" of the score that has a lot of practice tips, I haven't looked at it in great detail, but it probably has tips for the runs you are talking about.

The hands can develop agility not through endless repetition of monophonic, monotonous Hanon exercises, but through the careful study of polyphony (bach), the artistic gradation of the notes within beautiful melodies (chopin), the study of touch in its infinite varieties (Liszt), etc.  Polyphony is the true way to develop piano technique, and in the end you will have a better technique than others (Cherkassky played both the Prokofiev 2nd and Rachmaninoff 3rd in one concert when he was 80, and he spent his lifetime studying polyphony), and you will have a complete control over all of the corners of the piano repertoire.  C.P.E. Bach complained that Italians of his time merely "strummed" their instruments, and indeed many people today do the same thing, even in music which is written quite differently.

Cortot's editions are particularly valuable, because he was the master at developing exercises from the material.  Everybody should do that, and to find out how it can be done, all of his editions should be studied, especially Chopin Etudes.  In the repertoire sectino of this forum you can also find a list of all the Liszt editions which he made.
His comments are all in French, but of course the practice suggestions are musical examples (also, if you can skim the French, remember that "travail" means practice, and any sentence with that word you should try and translate).

Walter Ramsey

[demented cow]

A few people above (and many others) say that the key to solving mechanical problems is all in the mind. But what does that mean exactly? How is using my brain going to improve the speed & accuracy in the runs in say the Bm scherzo? I can appreciate that there's no point in practising without concentration (which leads to learning wrong notes), but surely there's more to it, and I wish people would be more specific about what it means to use the mind.
If the key to speed/accuracy is purely mental, how is it that many famous pianists were playing difficult pieces as children? (e.g. Arrau, Kissin, Sgouros, Liszt...) Did they learn to think properly earlier than other people?

[zheer]

what it means to use the mind.

  Who knows, but for a start its important not to separate mind from body, this is something that is usually learnt through a qualified teacher. Basically in piano playing its important to learn that even though it is the fingers ,arm etc ect that do most of the work, with-out a well planed practice routiene and concious effort, many hours at the piano will mount to little and even cause injury.

[dnephi]

leopoldgodowsky.com THen go to articles and click "how to develop octave technique."  Do exactly what it says.  Do it again and again, on all 10 fingers.  Then do it for all possible combinations (1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3,2-4,2-5,3-4,3-5,4-5) on different intervals.  Nothing to it... 

[richy321]

Demented Cow asked what it means to say that the solving of mechanical problems is basically a mental process.   I'll try to explain since I am one who takes this position.

First, let me give a few examples of what I consider "non-mental" approaches:

1.  A highly gifted child playing effortlessly without much technical training.  These would be the prodigies you mentioned.  They have an intuitive, built-in ability to produce the sounds they want, so they don't need to consciously understand any theory or mechanical principles.

2.  Some of those endowed with lesser amounts of innate talent can still learn by training involving mostly repetition of exercises, but this varies widely between individuals.  I know a Russian pianist who claims to have developed technique doing exercises such as Hanon with one hand, while reading a book with the other.  In this case, it is clearly not a mental approach.  My theory is that such people have a certain kind of "talent" by which sheer repetition allows the subconcious mind to eventually figure out how to get the desired results.  Many people, myself included, cannot learn technique this way.  Call it a lack of natural talent, or a low threshold of boredom, whatever, for these people mere repetition without understanding does not lead to learning.

In the case of the latter, provided there is sufficient motivation and intellectual ability, the mental or analytical approach can develop technique to an amazing degree, far beyond what is possible by mindless repetition.  What needs to be analyzed, of course, is the exact nature of technical problems.  In this analysis, the full range of physical, anatomical, mechanical, and geometrical knowledge can be brought to bear.  It is not a literal engineering approach as I made it sound.  In practice, one uses vast simplfications, visualized models and analogies at will.  As for the solution to the problems, this is where the mental processes come to the fore: in addition to a direct solution to the problem as analysed, there is a limitless range of imagery, unifying and coordinating concepts available -- whatever your mind is capable of.  If one thing doesn't do it, try something else, until you find the best solution.  I personally find it an engrossing, most stimulating approach, not frustrating at all, but then everyone is different. 

   


 
 

[sinspawnammes]

About the Chopin Scherzo, Cortot published a "working edition" of the score that has a lot of practice tips, I haven't looked at it in great detail, but it probably has tips for the runs you are talking about.

The hands can develop agility not through endless repetition of monophonic, monotonous Hanon exercises, but through the careful study of polyphony (bach), the artistic gradation of the notes within beautiful melodies (chopin), the study of touch in its infinite varieties (Liszt), etc.  Polyphony is the true way to develop piano technique, and in the end you will have a better technique than others (Cherkassky played both the Prokofiev 2nd and Rachmaninoff 3rd in one concert when he was 80, and he spent his lifetime studying polyphony), and you will have a complete control over all of the corners of the piano repertoire.  C.P.E. Bach complained that Italians of his time merely "strummed" their instruments, and indeed many people today do the same thing, even in music which is written quite differently.

Cortot's editions are particularly valuable, because he was the master at developing exercises from the material.  Everybody should do that, and to find out how it can be done, all of his editions should be studied, especially Chopin Etudes.  In the repertoire sectino of this forum you can also find a list of all the Liszt editions which he made.
His comments are all in French, but of course the practice suggestions are musical examples (also, if you can skim the French, remember that "travail" means practice, and any sentence with that word you should try and translate).

Walter Ramsey

I would really like to get my hands on Cortot's for this piece.  I'm fluid in French anyway.  Does anyone have it on their computer, and can upload?

[ramseytheii]

I would really like to get my hands on Cortot's for this piece.  I'm fluid in French anyway.  Does anyone have it on their computer, and can upload?

The Chopin-Cortot Etudes were posted in the Repertoire section a while ago.  Maybe run a search for them and see if you can find them..

Walter Ramsey

[nightingale11]

From years of experimenting and observation, I found that the gradual increasing of

speed does work, BUT you must give yourself alot of time. There is no "speed wall" as people have stated, since there must be a speed that one can do perfect repeats over and over without error, for days and days, and then obviously one could then increase the metronome by ONE number. Absurd to think one could not. Problem with people not suceeding in this is they didn't stay on the perfect repeat speed long enough, used faulty fingering, or produced the sound incorrectly which caused strain and/or lack of clarity. You must figure out how to produce the tone where the hand and all muscles are most relaxed. For me it is striking the key with raised finger and only enough pressure to key the key down once the key is struck. So when you state it will take forever to reach a certain speed, just get "time" out of the question and get to work, one speed at a time.

The devolopment in technique is to find the right motions- and conditioning the brain with it. therefore in your search get up to speed even if the playing becomes a bit sloppy and see what needs to be changed. then for conditioning the brain practice for accuracy because that is needed when playing fast (and musically of course). change the speed all the time. 

[nightingale11]

I forgot to add...what you just stated can be explained by this. your why is like a horse ramping up a walk. that will not work because you will build up stress which can lead to injury. what you accomplish is that you lie on the small probability to acidentally stumble to on the right motion. like a horse you may/or not stumble on to a troat.  why not start a gallop or infinitely speed(chord) and the slow down. Then there will be no speed walls.

[nick]

I forgot to add...what you just stated can be explained by this. your why is like a horse ramping up a walk. that will not work because you will build up stress which can lead to injury. what you accomplish is that you lie on the small probability to acidentally stumble to on the right motion. like a horse you may/or not stumble on to a troat.  why not start a gallop or infinitely speed(chord) and the slow down. Then there will be no speed walls.

I have not noticed my gradually increasing speed leads to "stress" or injury. There must be some stress to cause an adaptive change, ie increased speed. The gradual increase makes sure the key strokes are very clear with only a slight bit of stress, with the most independence of finger movement. I tried many times the other way, lightening speed in small sections, and I did not like the sound of each note. It was as though fingers were not striking the keys, only running over them, not as clear as the section length increased. I'm not really sure why it didn't work, only can speculate. I do know the gradual method is working great, as the piece I'm working on now is already at performance speed, crystal clear, and now I am going beyond so at performance time slowing down to performance speed will make it feel very easy. It may be a matter of what sound appeals to you.

Nick

[chopinfan_22]

I have been searching for an answer to this question for years. So maybe... here's where I can find it. What I want to be able to do: Move across the keyboard with ease. Be able to play anything you can possibly set in front of me. Now, how do I build up to that?

[nightingale11]

I have not noticed my gradually increasing speed leads to "stress" or injury. There must be some stress to cause an adaptive change, ie increased speed. The gradual increase makes sure the key strokes are very clear with only a slight bit of stress, with the most independence of finger movement. I tried many times the other way, lightening speed in small sections, and I did not like the sound of each note. It was as though fingers were not striking the keys, only running over them, not as clear as the section length increased. I'm not really sure why it didn't work, only can speculate. I do know the gradual method is working great, as the piece I'm working on now is already at performance speed, crystal clear, and now I am going beyond so at performance time slowing down to performance speed will make it feel very easy. It may be a matter of what sound appeals to you.

Technique is in 2 things finding the motions and condition your brain. what you do is not effective. You think that your hand transforms so that you can play, it does not you just accidentally stumbles into the the right motions which will get harder and more time consuming the more advance you become. what you do is just a long round about of playing the piano.

[nick]

Technique is in 2 things finding the motions and condition your brain. what you do is not effective. You think that your hand transforms so that you can play, it does not you just accidentally stumbles into the the right motions which will get harder and more time consuming the more advance you become. what you do is just a long round about of playing the piano.

I KNOW my hand transfoms so that I can play as I hear and see it, with metronome taking any quess work out of speed perception. And then the idea I accidentally stumbled into right motions that get harder....  Man, you know alot about me. Nonsense.

Nick

[nightingale11]

I KNOW my hand transfoms so that I can play as I hear and see it, with metronome taking any quess work out of speed perception. And then the idea I accidentally stumbled into right motions that get harder....  Man, you know alot about me. Nonsense.

Nick

the funny thing is that many believes this like you do. What you should do is to play first fast for exploring hand motions. Then add these motions to slowplay because accuracy improves better on slow speed. The slow play is for conditioning your brain and fast play for exploring hand motions. The thing you do is to practice slowmotions which will not be recquired for fast speeds. Then you practice and practice(sure you get there after long time--but it's ineffective) and suddenly you stumble into a new motion which let you playing at higher speeds. Then you practice that motions for a while until you then suddenly stumbles into another motions....etc...until you come up above final speed. Why practice all these slowmotions than you constantly search for the right motions...dont' bother if the playing becomes a bit uneven that something you are going to work on when you add these motions into the slow play.

[nick]

the funny thing is that many believes this like you do. What you should do is to play first fast for exploring hand motions. Then add these motions to slowplay because accuracy improves better on slow speed. The slow play is for conditioning your brain and fast play for exploring hand motions. The thing you do is to practice slowmotions which will not be recquired for fast speeds. Then you practice and practice(sure you get there after long time--but it's ineffective) and suddenly you stumble into a new motion which let you playing at higher speeds. Then you practice that motions for a while until you then suddenly stumbles into another motions....etc...until you come up above final speed. Why practice all these slowmotions than you constantly search for the right motions...dont' bother if the playing becomes a bit uneven that something you are going to work on when you add these motions into the slow play.

I actually arrived at my performance speed much sooner than expected, as I didn't want time to be a factor in reaching my goal. After years of experimenting with different methods, no way will I change what works! I don't practice "slow motions" except when first learning the notes. As speed increase the fingers don't raise as high seems the main difference. thanks anyway.

Nick

[tocca]

 but I see a lot of people here asking about fast octaves, or fast scales, or fast repeated notes - I think the entire question of "how can I play faster" is indeed the reason why people aren't able to play faster.

To play something hard, it can't be hard to you; to play something fast, it can't be fast to you.

Agree.

Conditioning your muscles for playing is a tiny part of it i think.
Imagine if a super virtuoso (take Hamelin for example) could switch brains with... well take me for example (who's moderately advanced only).

I'm guessing Hamelins brain in my body would make my fingers fly at incredible speeds, not quite up to his owns but not that far from. My poor body would tire sooner, that's for sure, but the speed would be there (almost).
My brain in Hamelins body would struggle though, maybe i'd find that i could sit longer/play "tougher" without getting tired but i doubth i be much faster... if it all.

[bella musica]

Work.  We can talk about it all we want to, but in the end what it boils down to is a lot of work.  There are no shortcuts.

[bernhard]

Work.  We can talk about it all we want to, but in the end what it boils down to is a lot of work.  There are no shortcuts.

"Furious activity is no substitute for understanding" (H. H. Williams)
 

[ted]

I have always been able to play anything I wanted to, which statement doesn't say a lot because I play very little. If the musical impulse is strong enough a physical solution always dawns on me after a while.  I don't really want to "build" physical technique any more. What I have seems to fit my creative purpose admirably and I don't want to start thinking about it.

I did "build" technique in my youth, and all things considered didn't do too badly, but in retrospect I could probably have gained the same effect from 20% of the effort had I used my brains instead of brute force and ignorance.

[bella musica]

"Furious activity is no substitute for understanding" (H. H. Williams)
 

For me, 'work' includes brainwork and fingerwork.   

[repeat]

I have read through this string with great interest. Hoping to learn the secret. Alas, disappoinment! I have learnt that it is all about movement, and that it all starts in the brain! Well, who could have guessed. All my life I have hoped one day to be able to play  things like the barcarolle, the 4th. ballad, the polonaise fantasy, the scerzos, even the etudes.  I can do some of them slowly, oh yes! But what good is that. What good is there in beeing able even to play up to speed the easy stuff, just to be stopped by the first trill. Who has heard of a beautiful, slow trill, or even a beautifull slow double trill. When my hands won’t cooperate how can I  make music? When I lack the strength, dexterity and independence of the fingers to do the things required in the music it makes no sence to intellectualise my problem. I want to know how to develop each one of my fingers into an independent little drumstick! Because those are the tools that I need to make music. When the mechanics (as someone put it ) is in place, then and only then has come the time for analyzing movement and doing brainwork. Perhaps mechanics is even trivial once achieved. But for those of us who struggle lack of mechanics is a road block, no less. How to achieve those mechanics,  that’s the question for most of us. So please, have another go, those of you  who know.

[bernhard]

When my hands won’t cooperate how can I  make music?

It is a very good question. And you have already answered it: you must have the co-operation of your hands. That is all there is to it. How to go about it is the real question.

When I lack the strength, dexterity and independence of the fingers to do the things required in the music it makes no sence to intellectualise my problem. I want to know how to develop each one of my fingers into an independent little drumstick! Because those are the tools that I need to make music. When the mechanics (as someone put it ) is in place, then and only then has come the time for analyzing movement and doing brainwork. Perhaps mechanics is even trivial once achieved. But for those of us who struggle lack of mechanics is a road block, no less. How to achieve those mechanics,  that’s the question for most of us. So please, have another go, those of you  who know.

But here you have gone completely astray, and incidentally, you have also told me why your hands will not co-operate.

You see:

1. You don´t lack strength. Your hands know that, and they will not put up with any PE program to acquire/develop what they know they already have.

What you lack is co-ordination

Work on co-ordination is specific, requires a knowledgeable teacher (not necessarily in piano, mind you - I have learned co-ordination from most excellent maters of the martial arts) to supervise work that most of the time seems non-sensical and couter-intuitive.

2. Everyone lacks finger independence. The tendons of the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers are linked together. Do you really wnat to know how to make each of your fingers an independent drumstick? Surgery. But after each is an independent drumstick, you will find out - like many an angry married woman - that independece prevents co-ordination of effort. Once they are rendered sirurgically independent your fingers will not be able to co-operate. This is what you truly need: to learn how to make your fingers collaborate, not how to make them independent.

I short, you have no clue, no idea what you are talking about (I say this in the kindest possible way), but you are utterly convinced that you do. Your hands, however, know better, and they are not about to embark on such flawed plan of action.

When the mechanics (as someone put it ) is in place, then and only then has come the time for analyzing movement and doing brainwork.

You cannot be serious. If you don´t know the mechanics (and clearly you don´t otherwise, why would you be asking for help?), and if no one has shown it to you (and clearly no one has, otherwise why would you be resorting to asking in an internet forum) then you will have to find out for yourself. And how are you going to do that, except by thinking long and hard about it and investigating at the piano your theories and scrupulosly discarding what does not work? Mind you, it will take a looooong time, but if you are determined enough you may get there.

I truly would like to help you, but it is very difficult to speak of these things in writing (not for want of trying - there are almost 5000 posts of mine out there). You need a hands on approach. In any case, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(discusses how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015
(Thumb under/over – detailed explanation – Fosberry flop)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2024.msg16583.html#msg16583
(how to aim the pinky – using the arm to move the fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2033.msg16635.html#msg16635
(finger strength)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2106.msg17587.html#msg17587
(developing both hands equally – repertory - why the LH is generally weaker – website for left handed pianos)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2163.msg18345.html#msg18345
(Colour – it is all about overtones)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2359.msg20442.html#msg20442
(Fingering placement on the keys)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2230.msg20686.html#msg20686
(Octaves and fast octaves – excellent post by Robert Henry)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2477.msg21403.html#msg21403
(Double thirds – the movement)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2552.msg22037.html#msg22037
(Accuracy – causes for inaccuracy – One possible solution: repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2581.msg22252.html#msg22252
(Question on piano height, octave playing, wrist movement, etc.).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2740.msg23635.html#msg23635
(Staccatto x light accents)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872
(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013
(Body movement – piano playing and martial arts)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2973.msg25970.html#msg25970
(How to create a cantabile effect – several approaches: creating a mental image, outlining, the three basic ways to bring out a melody)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3036.msg26638.html#msg26638
(trills and melody in the same hand)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.msg27113.html#msg27113
(thumb over – hand displacement – practising with awareness – awareness is not thinking – learning by imitation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3530.msg31559.html#msg31559
(how to bring out a melody – 3 different ways – Importance of a mental representation: hear in your mind and the fingers will comply)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3726.msg33453.html#msg33453
(playing with curved fingers – worry less about movement and more about sound)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3987.msg36197.html#msg36197
(etudes and alternatives to them)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons – Robert Henry’s opinion)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4164.msg39149.html#msg39149
(CC Chang and relaxation for playing fast passages)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – move the whole LH not only fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definition of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4887.msg47334.html#msg47334
(more on Hanon)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5034.msg47829.html#msg47829
(The finger strength controversy – some excellent posts by xvimbi)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music – analogy with warmup in the martial arts – dynamic flexibility and co-ordination – how to do high kicks without warming up)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5375.msg51272.html#msg51272
(Defending technicalexercises – two different philosophies regarding exercises – chopstick analogy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7682.msg77042.html#msg77042
(hand independence: how to create a cue system and what is hand memory).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163
(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11179.msg117263.html#msg117263
(extensive list of technical exercises and etudes)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8112.msg113575.html#msg113575
(Scarlatti x czerny to acquire technique – quotes by Sankey and Kirkpatrick)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13208.msg143740.html#msg143740
(an account on how Cramer’s technique deteriorated with age)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.msg147163#msg147163
(Why Hanon is a waste of time – or not -  summary of arguments and many relevant links)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15701.msg171057.html#msg171057
(debunking Dohnanyi)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=16273.msg181768#msg181768
(More Hanon: demonstration of 4th finger problem)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11467.0.html
(Taubman & Taubman videos)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5597.0.html
(Detailed description of Taubman, Fink and Sink plus comparison)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12856.msg137763.html#msg137763
(detailed discussion on posture – Bernhard´s 10 principles of good posture)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=17061.new#new
(description of thumb movement when descending rh scales)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,11699.msg122788.html#msg122788
(technical exercises – reply # 8 by xvimbi is most excellent)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/board,6/topic,19043.18.html#msg206386
(Debunking of Cortot – real technique is easy and does not need to bo practised – Liszt´s story)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/board,1/topic,19323.2.html#msg209430
(debunking of duchbag video with technical advice)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19226.new;topicseen#new
(developping finger independence – as if it was possible – examples of videos showing good technique – 4 books)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19145.new;topicseen#new
(Another debate on Hanon, Czerny and exercise X repertory to acquire technique – list of blunders by experts)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=19310.msg209477#msg209477
(Nine year old girl with weak fingers - Yet another thread on finger strength and exercises)

 

Tip of the melting iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[nick]

I have read through this string with great interest. Hoping to learn the secret. Alas, disappoinment! I have learnt that it is all about movement, and that it all starts in the brain! Well, who could have guessed. All my life I have hoped one day to be able to play  things like the barcarolle, the 4th. ballad, the polonaise fantasy, the scerzos, even the etudes.  I can do some of them slowly, oh yes! But what good is that. What good is there in beeing able even to play up to speed the easy stuff, just to be stopped by the first trill. Who has heard of a beautiful, slow trill, or even a beautifull slow double trill. When my hands won’t cooperate how can I  make music? When I lack the strength, dexterity and independence of the fingers to do the things required in the music it makes no sence to intellectualise my problem. I want to know how to develop each one of my fingers into an independent little drumstick! Because those are the tools that I need to make music. When the mechanics (as someone put it ) is in place, then and only then has come the time for analyzing movement and doing brainwork. Perhaps mechanics is even trivial once achieved. But for those of us who struggle lack of mechanics is a road block, no less. How to achieve those mechanics,  that’s the question for most of us. So please, have another go, those of you  who know.

I think I know what you meant by "finger independence", the ability of each finger to play it's note clearly- not separating tendons with surgery and so forth. What works for me is first, how to produce the first tone. I stike the note with slightly raised fingers, and this is most important-once the note is struck, only enough pressure to keep the key down. This keeps the hand most relaxed, using the fewest muscles. Once the fingering is decided on by doing a few notes very fast to get the easiest selection, I start slowly and accurately so that the playing is smooth with perfect rhythm and notes, with a metronome. And then Repeat, I uh, repeat. So you see Repeat, there is something in your name that I like. There was a reason you chose this name, to help lead you to the correct practice method. Ok, back to brass tacks. Once your speed is moderate for you, you will need to stay at a given speed longer. And the faster you get, more time must be spent on a given speed, just as the fastest runners work the hardest to gain a little once the speed is really up there. I may stay on a given speed for a couple of weeks before moving the metronome up 4 numbers (mine moves up in groups of numbers). Watch the best concert pianist play so as to rule out statements like " fingers must be on the keys before key depression" or other nonsense like that. There are many great pianists with different ways of playing, so ultimately you will choose what you like best. I love the percussive fast finger work sound, so I like the raised fingers. (besides it's easier once you get used to it!) I hope this helps!

Nick

[repeat]

Thanks Nick and Bernard for the advice. I think it was Artur Rubinstein who said that the loose fingers you need to play the piano have to be aquired sometime during childhood, or else it will never happen. Forgetting that depressive message, what did he mean by loose fingers if not just what I am striving for? It seems that if you are allready up there with a highly developed tecnique, you would need to try to play a simple tune with your toes to understand what other people are up against. If  then you were told that it was just a matter of coordination of your movements for you to play well with your toes, I wonder if you would find that very helpful. You seem to be a capacity on the subject of teaching Bernard, and I have every faith  that you know what you are talking about. But your message does not come across intelligibly. So it leaves me still thinking there must be more at the bottom of good  piano playing  than  just a meticulous, though crucial coordination of movements.  Take an athlete for example. To be a champion he must  achieve 100% coordination of his body movements.  For this he needs a body that will do the job. So he works out. With weights and stuff, for ours every day. To condition his body for the task. Because he knows that  coordination alone will get him nowhere. He would probably just injure himself.  Why should it be different on the piano? Are you seriously telling me that I can do anything I want on the piano just by careful coordination of my movements, no matter what tools I got for hands? Or are you telling me that my hands will somehow miracolously develop into good tools just by coordinating my movements? A fascinating thought I must admit. Perhaps we are adressing the problem at different levels. Building tecnique is a complex matter. When I am looking for ways og making my hands better tools you are talking about how to apply those tools intelligently? There’s a difference.
Well, anyway, you may call me ignorant, without a clue or gone astray, when all I wanted was some hints  to how I can make better progress and make my practising time at the piano more effective. I will have a go at all the reading you have suggested Bernard, and thanks again.
Vic.

[steve jones]

He probably means that crazy bendy thumb of his. Im quite that THAT can only be acquired during childhood!

Having watched Rubi play on numerous vids, I can attest that his hands do appear to be insanely flexible (but not large). Im not sure it is safe to perform the kind of exercises in adulthood that would be required to match that level of flexibility, in that Im not certain the anatomy of the hand could take it.

Fortunately, Im also sure that you dont need this to have a mustard technique. You just wont have Rubi's identical technique!

SJ

[bella musica]

Yeah, and what about the way Horowitz always had his pinkie curled up so tight?  I tried playing like that and it was incredibly difficult for me since I wasn't used to it!

[tocca]

Are you seriously telling me that I can do anything I want on the piano just by careful coordination of my movements, no matter what tools I got for hands? Or are you telling me that my hands will somehow miracolously develop into good tools just by coordinating my movements? A fascinating thought I must admit. Perhaps we are adressing the problem at different levels. Building tecnique is a complex matter. When I am looking for ways og making my hands better tools you are talking about how to apply those tools intelligently? There’s a difference.

Take a twelwe year old girl, might as well picture ourself a small girl with tiny arms and fingers/wrists that looks like they could break in the wind. She however can play very good, both fast runs and powerful chords.

Are you saying that an normally built adult doesn't have the "tools" to equal that performance. Meaning you must "work out" at the piano to get the muscles needed to play as that little girl??

The big difference is that the little girl knows how to move her fingers/wrists/arms and so on, utilising what little strength she has to make the fingers fly.

A probable reason why someone is lacking in speed in runs, drills and so on is: Wrong motions, to big motions, tensing the muscles, using the wrong muscles and so on.

Long ago i filmed myself trilling with my right and then left hand just to find out what i did differently. (I could trill quite good with my right, but far from as good with the left).
The difference in motion was hardly noticable until i slowed the film down and checked. Then i saw that i moved my fingers much more with my left hand.
With the right my fingers just lifted enough to be able to play the note again (not even releasing the key all the way up), while with the left hand my fingers released the key completely and even went a little bit up in the air before descending again.

When i concentrated on making smaller motions with my left, trying to get it to feel the same as the right hand, my trill started improving right away. I'm still better with my right but the difference is less, without any workout whatsoever.


Or to put it another way.... Listen to Bernhard!