Blame it on Bernhard!

[barnowl]

I just bought a Czerny Opus 740 CD at...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CS45WE/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-0589077-4478555?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=5174#moreAboutThisProduct

I might be a fool for having done so, because the reviewer, although swooning over Francisco Libetta's pianism, mentions that he plays it twice as fast as Vivien H. Slater does in her ("pedantic")recording that's been floating over the internet.

So, after one-clicking my order at Amazon, I began to wonder that just maybe Vivien's speed is more my speed. Trouble is, I can't find her recording. I can abide a pedant, so long as she talks or plays slowly enough for my pea brain to comprehend.

Can anyone supply a link where I can download or buy it?

In any event, this is all your fault, Bernhard. You dissed Hanon one
too many times. 

[galonia]

Actually, he disses Czerny, too.

Bernhard believes you should only play Czerny if you are inspired by the music.

He advocates developing your technique through repertoire.  If you love a piece, play it.  If you have difficulty with a certain part of the piece, don't turn to Hanon or Czerny or Dohnanyi finger exercises, or anything like that - just practise that part.

Bernhard has plenty of posts about how to effectively overcome difficult sections, if I remember correctly.

[debussy symbolism]

Don't diss Czerny. I love Czerny. Without him, how would I be able to play the Moszkowski etudes? I already got down the first 2, Emajor and the Gminor ones, not perfect but getting there. I also study Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny, and don't tell me that there are not elements of Czerny in the piece. Scales, arpeggios, chords. All in all, Czerny is awesome.

[bernhard]

Actually, he disses Czerny, too.

Bernhard believes you should only play Czerny if you are inspired by the music.

He advocates developing your technique through repertoire.  If you love a piece, play it.  If you have difficulty with a certain part of the piece, don't turn to Hanon or Czerny or Dohnanyi finger exercises, or anything like that - just practise that part.

Bernhard has plenty of posts about how to effectively overcome difficult sections, if I remember correctly.

Galonia summarized it brilliantly. 

And you may be very surprised to learn that I actually enjoy many of Czerny´s exercises as music.

I do however abhor Czerny as a method for acquiring technique, that is, either you must do the whole book (he has several thousand books, by the way), one piece after the next (have you noticed I am calling them “pieces”, rather than “exercises”? Starting doing the same and your whole consciousness will expand!), or you select the ones who will address the problem(s) you are convinced you have. To that end, Czerny gives – in his op. 740 – little helpful subtitles. And here is when the whole thing falls apart.

Consider this little gem of a subtitle, if ever there was one: op. 740 no. 2: “Passing under of the thumb”. The piece itself is basically built on arpeggio figurations over two octaves, first on the right hand, then on the left, and then on both hands together.

Had he put in his subtitle: “Dealing with arpeggio figurations”, all my criticism would be void. But by describing the aim of the piece as facilitating passing under of the thumb, he immediately showed me:

i.   His ignorance of anatomy and ergometrics: passing under of the thumb is not the motion with which to acquire facility in playing arpeggios.

ii.   His lack of observation towards his and his student´s actual technique, since I am assuming that both he and at least some of his students would have been able to play this piece. If so, then they would have of necessity used thumb over – since it is the only way to play this piece at the suggested MM = 60 (for a dotted minim).

iii.   His lack of pedagogical flexibility, since he must have been faced with many (perhaps the majority) eager and adoring students who – by trying hard to comply with his misguided directions – were totally unable to play the piece, or at least to play the piece at anything approaching the real tempo. Did it ever cross his mind that perhaps “thumb under” was a wrong direction? What did he tell these students? “You have no talent for the piano. Go and be a truck driver.”

So anyone (yes, that includes Liszt as well) who proposes “thumb under” as the desirable technique to acquire in order to play fast scales and arpeggios has immediately lost all credibility as a piano pedagogue. (I am not suggesting that Liszt ever did that though).
Then when Galonia (very correctly) says:

He advocates developing your technique through repertoire.  If you love a piece, play it.  If you have difficulty with a certain part of the piece, don't turn to Hanon or Czerny or Dohnanyi finger exercises, or anything like that - just practise that part.

A lot of people read that and take it to mean that all you have to do is to repeat the challenging passage over and over again. This is not practice. Somehow they miss what she says next:

Bernhard has plenty of posts about how to effectively overcome difficult sections, if I remember correctly.

Yes, you do remember correctly. True practice is far more complex, intellectually and physically demanding than lazily doing some technical exercise or repeating over and over some small section in the hope that somehow it will turn up all right.

I plead not guilty.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

P.S. If you are interested in a limited description of how to master op. 740 no. 2, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21204.html#msg21204
(repeated note-groups as a way to tackle Czerny op. 740 no. 2)

You may also be interested in these related threads.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2948.msg25927.html#msg25927
(Czerny x Scarlatti to acquire technique – Ted gives an excellent contribution)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music – analogy with warmup in the martial arts – dynamic flexibility and co-ordination – how to do high kicks without warming up)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5375.msg51272.html#msg51272
(Defending technical exercises – two different philosophies regarding exercises – chopstick analogy)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8112.msg113575.html#msg113575
(Scarlatti x czerny to acquire technique – quotes by Sankey and Kirkpatrick)

BW
B

[bernhard]

Don't diss Czerny. I love Czerny. Without him, how would I be able to play the Moszkowski etudes? I already got down the first 2, Emajor and the Gminor ones, not perfect but getting there. I also study Beethoven's Rage over a lost penny, and don't tell me that there are not elements of Czerny in the piece. Scales, arpeggios, chords. All in all, Czerny is awesome.

I find this to be a very interesting statement since it allows me to contrast two very different philosophies of approaching piano practice/technique acquisition. You are basically saying that Exercises are useful since they have allowed you to play more difficult exercises.

Philosophy no. 1: (the Brocolli School of Piano Playing – you may not like it, but it is good for you)

In this school,

Easy BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM lead logically to intermediate BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM which lead to ever more difficult BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM until (hopefully) one has acquired enough technique to play what one wishes.


Philosophy no. 2 (the Gourmet school of piano playing – you may even eat Brocolli, as long as you love it).

In this school, you only play pieces you love. (which may even include Czerny). Fortunately the piano repertory is so vast, that there is no need to play any piece one does not like.

One can easily find basic BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to intermediate BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to advanced BPTILTPATWMWAR.

[BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM - Boring Exercise I Would Rather Not Play, But My Teacher Says It Is Good For Me.

BPTILTPATWMWAR - Beautiful Piece That I Love To Play And That Will Make a Worthwhile Addition to my Repertory.]

Most people are unaware that philosophy no. 2 exists.

Now you know.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianistimo]

agreed about the thumb over vs. under.  i believe, as liszt became 'transcendental' in his technique - he overcame this thumb-under idea, too.  and, even czerny probably just wanted to keep the thumb 'ready' to play and not necessarily under the hand - since the hand is moving horizontally quickly to play arpeggios.  the illusion is that the thumb is under the hand more when u have curved fingers.  impossible if ur hands are flat.  one thing for sure, u can play much better when u are not focusing soley on ur thumbs.  perhaps it's more a focus on ur gliding hand and not connecting all the notes literally - as one might try to do when playing an exercise for the first time slowly.

[pianistimo]

*no doubt the use of the thumb is harder than other fingers - as u don't want to let it just stick out like a hitchhiker's thumb.  it does take learning to 'reign it in' and use it without the double jointed hitches that some people first have when learning to play with the thumb.  if u think about it, it's the closest finger to the keyboard and gives ur hand the 'stability' it has when grasping something.  we are used to grasping and tightening.  but, with piano - there's relatively little need for grasping - and more a need to look at the top of the hand to make sure it's level.  u can do this by placing ur hand (using thumb to fourth fingers) on a table and  letting the pinky be freestanding (wiggle it about whilst keeping everything else stable). 

now, the arpeggio doesn't even use this little pinky guy.  so - to me, what's most important is to maintain a straight line with the thumb across the arpeggio line - which means that ur hand is not going to follow a straight line, too.  it will actually be angled (say if u were pulling ur hand by ur pinky with a string) and pulled horizontally at a 15 degree angle.  it's important to imagine only the hand being pulled and not the entire arm.  otherwise, u get 'elbow out' instead of relaxed elbow following hand.

this is how i play arpeggios anyway.  and, it's probably the long version explaination.

 
when i went bicycling the other day - i started thinking about natural movement.  how birds don't do bird-czerny to learn to fly and things like that.  they naturally experiment to see what will make them fly the best.  sure, they might fall straight down the first time - but they do the minimum movements to keep them in flight after a while.  i started thinking about take-offs and landings.  then - it progressed to a thread of it's own (which i'm thinking of starting).  basically, it's called 'minimalist' playing.  using the least amount of effort to do anything.  now, the only thing that might not be accomplished is some kind of godowsky etude which requireds double-thirds going up and double-sixths going down. 

don't get me wrong - i have respect for czerny, too - and his pieces and the opportunity to learn to memorize with patterns - (as it's an easy way to learn memory tricks - with czerny) - but, czerny, clementi, etc. etc. are more like salt/pepper at the table and not exactly hot sauce. 

now, i look at the title of this thread - blame it on bernhard.  this is what i blame on bernhard - the expectations of students that they will get everything that bernhard gives.  it is not realistic.  do u know that if the average teacher did what bernhard does (giving free advice and help so much) they'd have no spare time?  that is why we'd walk around with our shoelaces untied and have to cut our own hair - put food in an ice chest near the computer and things like that.
 

[pianistimo]

u know what's strange is that czerny gives a pianist a 'feeling' that they can master the piano, though.  it's a good impression to give a first year student.  then, u let them have it and realize that it's only the beginning and was only an illusion.  that they have to have a curiosity of their own about the keyboard and what they want to accomplish.

of course, a better way might be to start a child at age 5 or 6 and let them be 'bird-like' in their experimentation of the keyboard.  even an adult will benefit from just jazzing around.  maybe as teachers - we need to try to remember those early years of just experimenting and finding passages that can be 'jazzed up ' and create some of our own exercises for students that focus on shorter lengths.  also, pieces/exercises in duet form would be fun.

**what i take from all this - is don't waste hours and hours on exercises - but work ur repertoire and do what it takes to learn the difficult passages in that. 

ps  i do think all piano students should at least be familiar with some sort of exercise that goes chronologically up by half steps.  there are many instances in vocal class/church/school chorales- where the pianist is asked to warm up the choir.  there's some fantastic accompaniments for soprano in an old warm up book that i have.  if u know this type of thing - you appear a well rounded pianist to others and can utilize ur talents for jazzing a bit instead of the old routine chord/chord/chord.

[pianistimo]

speaking of jazz - there are some interesting versions of songs in the gospel arena and jazz - (ie henderson) that really make people laugh when u don't play the usual boring /boring.  i heard an 'onward christian soldiers' that modulated frequently and had fantastic runs and things.  if u want a good exercise - try a gospel song out of one of those books with the piano arrangment written in.

[debussy symbolism]

I find this to be a very interesting statement since it allows me to contrast two very different philosophies of approaching piano practice/technique acquisition. You are basically saying that Exercises are useful since they have allowed you to play more difficult exercises.

Philosophy no. 1: (the Brocolli School of Piano Playing – you may not like it, but it is good for you)

In this school,

Easy BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM lead logically to intermediate BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM which lead to ever more difficult BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM until (hopefully) one has acquired enough technique to play what one wishes.


Philosophy no. 2 (the Gourmet school of piano playing – you may even eat Brocolli, as long as you love it).

In this school, you only play pieces you love. (which may even include Czerny). Fortunately the piano repertory is so vast, that there is no need to play any piece one does not like.

One can easily find basic BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to intermediate BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to advanced BPTILTPATWMWAR.

[BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM - Boring Exercise I Would Rather Not Play, But My Teacher Says It Is Good For Me.

BPTILTPATWMWAR - Beautiful Piece That I Love To Play And That Will Make a Worthwhile Addition to my Repertory.]

Most people are unaware that philosophy no. 2 exists.

Now you know.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Yes, I undestand your philosophy. Of course it is necessary to play pieces, that is why my teacher assigns pieces that improve technique, i.e the Moszkowski etudes. However, would the etudes be possible without Czerny, yes, but much more hard. What Moszkowski uses, scales, arpeggios, ect is found in Czerny and unlike most musical pieces, Czerny works specifically to build the given technique such as arpeggios. What also sets Czerny aside, is that his etudes are short, making it easier to concentrate on a given etude. I have started the Emajor Moszkowski etude not long ago, and have already learned all the notes(still learning though)

[debussy symbolism]

I find this to be a very interesting statement since it allows me to contrast two very different philosophies of approaching piano practice/technique acquisition. You are basically saying that Exercises are useful since they have allowed you to play more difficult exercises.

Philosophy no. 1: (the Brocolli School of Piano Playing – you may not like it, but it is good for you)

In this school,

Easy BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM lead logically to intermediate BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM which lead to ever more difficult BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM until (hopefully) one has acquired enough technique to play what one wishes.


Philosophy no. 2 (the Gourmet school of piano playing – you may even eat Brocolli, as long as you love it).

In this school, you only play pieces you love. (which may even include Czerny). Fortunately the piano repertory is so vast, that there is no need to play any piece one does not like.

One can easily find basic BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to intermediate BPTILTPATWMWAR that will lead to advanced BPTILTPATWMWAR.

[BEIWRNPBMTSIIGFM - Boring Exercise I Would Rather Not Play, But My Teacher Says It Is Good For Me.

BPTILTPATWMWAR - Beautiful Piece That I Love To Play And That Will Make a Worthwhile Addition to my Repertory.]

Most people are unaware that philosophy no. 2 exists.

Now you know.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Yes, I undestand your philosophy. Of course it is necessary to play pieces, that is why my teacher assigns pieces that improve technique, i.e the Moszkowski etudes. However, would the etudes be possible without Czerny, yes, but much more hard. What Moszkowski uses, scales, arpeggios, ect is found in Czerny and unlike most musical pieces, Czerny works specifically to build the given technique such as arpeggios. What also sets Czerny aside, is that his etudes are short, making it easier to concentrate on a given etude. I have started the Emajor Moszkowski etude not long ago, and have already learned all the notes(still learning though), and play the passages at moderate tempo fluently(of course there are still things to work on). What do I find in this study, scales, arpeggios, all the things found in Czerny.

I love to play excercises by the way.

[debussy symbolism]

Whoa, sorry about that.

[bernhard]

Go back to your previous post. Click on modify. Then look for this: [/quote ]. Move it to the end of my quoted message, so that your message starts after it. This will fix it.

Having dealt with this, I still find amusing the way you write about this subject. You say:

Of course it is necessary to play pieces, that is why my teacher assigns pieces that improve technique, i.e the Moszkowski etudes.

If you are serious, and not just being ironic, I do find this statement sort of amazing .

First you state that “pieces are necessary” as if it was a bit of a bother to play them. (“Darn! I will have to stop my Hanon, but pieces are necessary! I must do them!”).

Then you go on to say that your teacher assigns the pieces for you to play. Why? Don´t you have your own list of favorite pieces you want to play? I mean do you have any desire whatsoever to play whatsoever, or is it something you do grudgingly because your teacher say so?

Then you go on and say that the reason your teacher assigns you pieces is to improve technique! I thought that was what Hanon, Czerny et al was for.

And to top it all, you give as an example of pieces that your teacher assigns you to improve technique the Moskowsky etudes.

Nah, you cannot be serious. 

What happened to the idea that we learn the piano because  we want to play certain pieces that we dearly love? What about the idea that the reason we want to learn these pieces is because of the enjoyment and exhilaration we experience when playing them?

Your post reminds me of certain people obsessed with money that spend all their lives working and amassing money and goods, but never have the time to enjoy it.

On the other hand, maybe you do love exercises, and that is the main reason for you to learn the piano. So I suggest that you drop the pieces all together. Why waste time on them? Just master all piano etudes ever written. (I am serious!).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[debussy symbolism]

Who ever said that I didn't like to learn pieces. I love to play Moszkowski. I love every piece that I played so far. Who says that I don't want to learn pieces. That is absurd. Of course there are a ton of pieces from Chopin, Bach, Liszt, Ravel, Rachmaninoff that I want to learn. Do I object to the pieces that my teacher assings, of course not. One, because I love them, and two, because they help. I think that most teachers, including you Bernhard, are in a "student doesnt' like assigned pieces" mindset. True, my teacher's other pupils often do object to assigned pieces. I am sorry that I made the impression that I "have" to learn the pieces. No, I want to learn them.

Then you go on to say that your teacher assigns the pieces for you to play. Why? Don´t you have your own list of favorite pieces you want to play? I mean do you have any desire whatsoever to play whatsoever, or is it something you do grudgingly because your teacher say so?

A teacher is someone who serves as a guide, therefore having the ability to pick pieces to suit one's needs the most. Yes, there are many pieces that I want to learn, as said earlier, however, I love the pieces I am currently learning and in an instance of me playing my own"requested" pieces, my progress will not be as efficient as it would be if I was to play pieces that help out the technique in a particular way or another. I play an amount of Bach's works, Schumann easier pieces, Mozart, and more(mentioned a few). Do I like the pieces? Of course I do.

Then you go on and say that the reason your teacher assigns you pieces is to improve technique! I thought that was what Hanon, Czerny et al was for.

On the other hand, maybe you do love exercises, and that is the main reason for you to learn the piano. So I suggest that you drop the pieces all together. Why waste time on them? Just master all piano etudes ever written. (I am serious!).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Yes, pieces do improve technique, as do the excercises (this is my turn to be sarcastic)

Again, you are under the impression of me just loving excercises. This is infact not true. Why do I do excercises(note, I don't mean etudes, but excercises such as finger independance). Is it because I love them so dearly and devote all my playing time to them and because "my teacher assings them"? No, it is because they work. I feel my fingers gaining more accuracy, clarity, speed, ect. Plus it is a good warm up. Why do something if it is useless?

So I suggest that you drop the pieces all together. Why waste time on them? Just master all piano etudes ever written. (I am serious!).

To quote you: "Nah, you cannot be serious"  I hope that this was a joke. I love pieces, and etudes aren't restricted to being just etudes. They are pieces. Don't tell me that you don't like Mozskowski. You even made a claim earlier that you like some Czerny etudes as pieces, and I totally agree with you.

Anyways, I hope that I didn't provoke offense, as this is just a difference of opinion and that's good, because without debate there is no development in knowledge.

 

[debussy symbolism]

I think that I might like to add one more thing. I think that the core reason of the "banishment" of pure excercises by many teachers could be summed up in one word. Lazyness. Students simply don't like excercises and there is nothing wrong with that. However, have all of the composers that wrote excercises wasted their time? I think that most schools use the excercises to a certain degree. To quote Liszt, "I study four to five hours of excercises (thirds, sixths, octaves, tremolos, repeated notes, cadenzas etc.). Provided the definition of the word "excercise" hasn't changed, I think it is safe to assume that Liszt meant the excercises that Bernhard shuns(not that there is anything wrong with that for the sake of method).

[ingagroznaya]

By now I'm assuming Bernhard and Debussy are the same person. It does not make this conversation any less funnier.

[barnowl]

By now I'm assuming Bernhard and Debussy are the same person. It does not make this conversation any less funnier.

Extremely droll.  Thank you, IngaGroznaya!

Still laughing. 

[debussy symbolism]

I would like to point out perhaps why Bernhard, you think of excercises as vapid and an offset for injuries. Maybe that is because the students resort to extemporaneous and otherwise un focused methods of playing them. What is the point of an "excercise"? To develop specific facility. When playing a particular excercise it is important to see that all fingers are active, wrists down and otherwise done correctly. These excercises work on a specific technique to be found in pieces that require a specific technique, that pieces that your students choose may not develop. You mentioned elsewhere that lazyness arises out of actually doing pieces correctly, which is true, pieces do require constant attention(no cause for lazyness). Just running through excercises will not do them justice, but actually focusing on them will. A personal story: I practiced Schmitt's finger independance excercieses(holding one or several fingers down, whilst playing note patterns with others) and the next lesson, my teacher commended my improvement in playing Bach and other pieces and the hand itself. Therefore, under given circumstance, it is safe to assume that these excercises did help, because I did the way that my teacher told me to do, that is wrists down, making sure the fifth finger isn't collapsing, good tone, non passive fingers, ect. What did this excercise do? Help with other pieces. Finger precision and dexterity, good tone, clarity, etc. I hope that this provides good argument for the worth of proper excercise execution.

[bernhard]

A personal story: I practiced Schmitt's finger independance excercieses(holding one or several fingers down, whilst playing note patterns with others) and the next lesson, my teacher commended my improvement in playing Bach and other pieces and the hand itself. Therefore, under given circumstance, it is safe to assume that these excercises did help, because I did the way that my teacher told me to do, that is wrists down, making sure the fifth finger isn't collapsing, good tone, non passive fingers, ect. What did this excercise do? Help with other pieces. Finger precision and dexterity, good tone, clarity, etc. I hope that this provides good argument for the worth of proper excercise execution.

As I said elsewhere I direct my posts to people who are dissatisfied.

If you are satisfied with your present progress and the way you are achieving it, you will find little usefulness for the ideas put forward in my posts. In fact, they may affect your practice/playing negatively. This is far from my intentions and wishes.

On a side note, I am not sure what you mean by “wrist down”, but if it means that your forearm and the back of your hand make a “V” shape (as opposed to the correct straight line), than I would caution you against its frequent use – be it while doing exercises, or playing pieces – since it is considered to be the main cause of carpal tunnel syndrom. Now, we do not want that to happen, do we?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[debussy symbolism]

By "wrists down" I mean that the fingers aren't flat, but supported by the knuckles. If the wrists are raised then it is literally impossible to play and carpal tunnel syndrome is inevitable. Anyways, thanks for advice Bernhard. I guess that there are many teaching methods that we are just not accustomed to.

[ingagroznaya]

Swear to God, I could have learned how to play just by listening to your chats. You go into such a depth, I am afraid my students will abandon me .

[ingagroznaya]

BarnOwl,
is it my Soviet propaganda past or you connected to this too?

[pianistimo]

i think barnowl understands the concept of radical freedom.  the kind u find in mexico - say - a small quaint village where u can rent a bungalo for $10. and live for the month on $50.  these people find fun everywhere they go.  they live well - and probably has a maid for another $30. a month.  it's just that most people are so ordered they never think of these things - although i wouldn't put anything past bernhard or ingagroznya.  now who is ingagrozny likely the same person as?  probably mayla?  i'm still wondering on that one.  a chicken for a husband?  only russians equate chickens to husbands. 

now, ingagroznya, don't get mad at me.  i found my husband attractive for all the wrong reasons (some right ones, too).  i fell in love with his singing (but he does other things well too).  russians are innately musical.  u can't help but be stunned by their understanding of music and dedication to perfecting it. it's the 'old school' mentality.  work very hard and be pleased by that work.  parents would not allow children to sit around playing computer games probably - thus my hubby's non-understanding of down time or free time for the kids.  i really do need to find them mroe activities, though.

something else i like to hear is the language.  i do like to hear russian.  it is a language that is gorgeous sung in those old churches with such russian voices.  have u ever heard of ivan rebrov (ff).  if u haven't - take a listen.  he goes like five octaves.  falsetto is even wonderful.

[barnowl]

I'll address Inga and Pinaistimo's recent comments later (if I can think of something half way funny), but for now...

We seemed to have drifted a bit. Could we return to Czerny's Opus 740 for a moment?

Since I bought the CD of Francisco Libatt playing all 50 exercises, I'll at least make a stab at playing the exercises when it arrives from amazon. Does anyone have a plan of attack? Hanon suggests metronomic speeds, but as far as I can tell, Czerny doesn't.

Assuming I'm an average 72-year old beginner, at what speed should I start and what would be the successive speeds? Any comments would be appreciated.

[pianistimo]

forget what i said about radical freedom.  barnowl wants to be a caged bird.  well, barnowl, go for it.  in a year or so u'll be unable to play ragtime anymore.  but, actually, some of czerny has a ragtime feel sort of.  i mean - u could change the rhythms just a bit - and make it sound kinda freaky.

seriously, everything in moderation.  u don't want to give urself some carpel tunnels, as bernhard says.  at 72 - u should just take them at a good slow tempo and work on hand dexterity and not necessarily top speed for now.  you may actually have a better left hand than most of us are born with and czerny may not be what you need.  you might actually be learning more about rhythms with czerny.  dividing them up and playing them evenly.  you can learn a lot from just attempting to learn rhythms better by playing slowly.  draw straight lines down on the main beats (through both staves) and then attempt to divide everything else up ( 1 - e- and - a)  or say the type of note as u play it *four-six-teenth- notes  *two-eighths  , etc. at the correct speed.  most people are not capable of playing ragtime well - so i have no doubt you have some dexterity.  but, usually improvisers are terrible sight readers and have no concept of reading rhythms and rests as they have a natural rhythm.

dare i say anything about the metronome.  no.  i will not.  (ps  they use metronomes a lot in russia).

[bernhard]

I'll address Inga and Pinaistimo's recent comments later (if I can think of something half way funny), but for now...

We seemed to have drifted a bit. Could we return to Czerny's Opus 740 for a moment?

Since I bought the CD of Francisco Libatt playing all 50 exercises, I'll at least make a stab at playing the exercises when it arrives from amazon. Does anyone have a plan of attack? Hanon suggests metronomic speeds, but as far as I can tell, Czerny doesn't.

Assuming I'm an average 72-year old beginner, at what speed should I start and what would be the successive speeds? Any comments would be appreciated.

Just go by the book.  One exercise after the other (it was planned this way - the more basic ones are at the front, the more complex ones at the end).

(or if you get bored, just play the ones you like the best - just don´t tell Debussy Symbolism about it ).

Learn them first as you would any piece of music. Use whatever trickery is available and appropriate to that end. For an example, have a look here:

 
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21204.html#msg21204
(repeated note-groups as a way to tackle Czerny op. 740 no. 2)

At this stage, do not try to attempt Czerny suggested speeds (or Libetta´s). Just aim to be able to play the study correctly (as far as right notes at the right times with the right fingers are concerned). To be abel to do that at half the speed suggested is a reasonable goal (and they will sound good too).

Once you can do that, that is when practice on them will actually start. From then on the task is to bring them up to speed. Have a look here so that you approach this task correctly:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing – example: 3rd movt of Moonlight)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5083.msg48306.html#msg48306
(More questions on fast speed practice – the eldorado analogy - collection of links)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing - an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the 3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

If however you find that op. 740 is just beyond your current grasp, don´t get discouraged. Czerny foresaw that and wrote zillion other exercises that will preare you for Op. 740, the most well known of the lot being op. 299 ("The School of Velocity"). And if op. 299 is also impossible, then start with op. 849 which prepares for it.

And since you are at it, why not master his op. 636 ("Preliminary School of Finger Dexterity" which prepares for op. 740).

Finally, don´t miss op. 139 (100 progressive studies) which is easy in comparison with the above, but which contains some of the most melodious studies Czerny wrote.

Just the tip of the melting Czerny iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

PS - I agree with pianistimo above (How coud I not agree with myself?)
Best wishes

[barnowl]

forget what i said about radical freedom.  barnowl wants to be a caged bird.  well, barnowl, go for it.  in a year or so u'll be unable to play ragtime anymore.  but, actually, some of czerny has a ragtime feel sort of.  i mean - u could change the rhythms just a bit - and make it sound kinda freaky.

seriously, everything in moderation.  u don't want to give urself some carpel tunnels, as bernhard says.  at 72 - u should just take them at a good slow tempo and work on hand dexterity and not necessarily top speed for now.  you may actually have a better left hand than most of us are born with and czerny may not be what you need.  you might actually be learning more about rhythms with czerny.  dividing them up and playing them evenly.  you can learn a lot from just attempting to learn rhythms better by playing slowly.  draw straight lines down on the main beats (through both staves) and then attempt to divide everything else up ( 1 - e- and - a)  or say the type of note as u play it *four-six-teenth- notes  *two-eighths  , etc. at the correct speed.  most people are not capable of playing ragtime well - so i have no doubt you have some dexterity.  but, usually improvisers are terrible sight readers and have no concept of reading rhythms and rests as they have a natural rhythm.

dare i say anything about the metronome.  no.  i will not.  (ps  they use metronomes a lot in russia).

I miss many of the nuances here (except, thank God, Inga's  ), so I'm not in on your reference to metronomes. But for a schlocker like myself a little bit of metronome can be a lot of help. I once gave a Seiko to my former teacher and he loved it. As he told me it gave him indisputable evidence to his younger students of their off-beat mistakes. It worked wonderfully.

This guy, my mentor, was not just a wonderful teacher but one helluva pianist. I gave him a finger buster to sight read and he did it. I am absolutley confodant he never saw it before that moment.

And when I'm doing Hanon. it slows me down to the proper tempo - and helps to keep me there. And out of Mudville.

Some of you folks have 'nomes built in to your psyches. On the other hand, there are warts like myself who don't.

[barnowl]

Bernhard, you knock me out! Thank you. (Again!)

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

[pianistimo]

dear barnowl, 

i imagine they'll have seiko hearing-aid looking metronomes before we know it.  maybe i should patent the idea?

[galonia]

Just go by the book.  One exercise after the other (it was planned this way - the more basic ones are at the front, the more complex ones at the end).

(or if you get bored, just play the ones you like the best - just don´t tell Debussy Symbolism about it ).

Learn them first as you would any piece of music. Use whatever trickery is available and appropriate to that end.
...

If however you find that op. 740 is just beyond your current grasp, don´t get discouraged. Czerny foresaw that and wrote zillion other exercises that will preare you for Op. 740, the most well known of the lot being op. 299 ("The School of Velocity"). And if op. 299 is also impossible, then start with op. 849 which prepares for it.

And since you are at it, why not master his op. 636 ("Preliminary School of Finger Dexterity" which prepares for op. 740).

Finally, don´t miss op. 139 (100 progressive studies) which is easy in comparison with the above, but which contains some of the most melodious studies Czerny wrote.

Just the tip of the melting Czerny iceberg.

Bernhard forgot Op 599, which is good for absolute beginners.

The way I have used Czerny (some of this is the way I was taught, and some the way I have taught) is:

Op 599 is good for beginners - I use it to teach note reading and transposition.  But I pick pieces, and most certainly never get the students to play through the whole lot.  It's a good way for beginners to learn some pretty common patterns, I've found.

Op 139 also good for beginners, but a little harder than the early pieces in 599.  Agree with Bernhard that there are some which make nice music in this set, and have usually given them as genuine pieces, not exercises, to some students.

Op 299 is good for advanced beginners/intermediate students - I find this set is just full of scales and arpeggio patterns and I've always found it a bit annoying (one of my teachers insisted I play far too much from this set) - so I've never actually given any of it to any of my students.  But I guess it's stuff you can just fly through, because none of them are terribly hard.  Although no. 36 out of this one is challenging for some people because of the changes in patterns and the contrary motion.  That's probably the only one in this set I don't detest.

I quite like Op 740 when I don't want to think too hard and just want to do something physical.  There are some pieces in this which are very musical.  But what I use this for is, because a few of these studies are written for RH and LH is just playing boring accompaniment, I'll compose my own LH part to compete with the RH part, and my teacher used to love hearing these.

I've never used Op 636 or 849.

[barnowl]

Thank you very much Galonia. I appreciate your addendum to Bernhard's
meanderings. (He's making fun of me.  And it's most amusing.)

I have now enough Czerny possibilities to last a lifetime.

[bernhard]

We should be dissing Czerny, not reccommending it! 

How exactly did this happen?

[debussy symbolism]

In defense of Czerny, most schools use it, some to a greater extent than others. Czerny is recommended by Liszt, Brahms, Stravinski, and more I think, although Chopin wasn't entirely found of it. I think we can all agree that Czerny covers technique used in music, such as scales and arpeggios. Would my scales and arpeggios in pieces be good without Czerny? No, probably not. I mean come on, Czerny develops speed and finger activity and accuracy. My defense of Czerny also consists of the support of the fact that Czerny etudes are relatively short, the begginer studies are practically around 8 bars. This is much easier for a beginner to concentrate upon, and more work can be accomplished in a shorter time. Pieces on the other hand, usually do not cover a specific technique, but rather a plethora of them, hence piece. This will be harder on the student because there are just simply too many things to work on. To the extent of my knowledge, Bernhard, you allow students to choose any piece to work on(of supposed difficulty). Students thus choose pieces that may not develop technique as much as other pieces will.

[debussy symbolism]

I would also like to add that pieces do have the advantage of having many things to improve upon. That is why, pick an etude that covers many techniques. For the not so difficult ones, I recommend Moszkowski op72. These etudes cover many things. The first (Emajor) covers scales, arpeggios, hand stretching, intervals, ect. These etudes aren't just mindless excercises, they are pieces(this should be pleasant for Bernhard to hear). Pieces that actually focus on technique in vast quantities, whilst still retaining their quality as pieces.

[debussy symbolism]

We should be dissing Czerny, not reccommending it! 

How exactly did this happen?

This must be making you feel quite bad huh

[barnowl]

By now I'm assuming Bernhard and Debussy are the same person. It does not make this conversation any less funnier.

The first time, I saw this, it was outrageously witty.

But now, I'm wondering if could also be true.

[debussy symbolism]

"To thine own self be true" What do you find funny about my posts?

[bernhard]

Yeah! What do you find funny about my posts?

[barnowl]

"To thine own self be true" What do you find funny about my posts?

I think you're speaking to me.

I don't find anything funny about your posts. And that might be the concern. Fact is, you seem to be utterly sincere. Always and overwhelmingly. I worry, sometimes, that you never seem to find time to laugh. Bernhard pokes fun at you, but you never chuckle, hardly lash back. I wish you'd do a little of both.

[barnowl]

Yeah! What do you find funny about my posts?

Everything!! 

[barnowl]

Inga's comment...

It's so funny to think that your two personalities - Bernhard and DS - are emanating from the same brain. One is the sometimes gruff Authority Figure, the other is the Sincere Student.

The real gut busting aspect though, is the brain they're coming from- Inga's. Who else's?

I love it.

[ingagroznaya]

паранойя 

[ingagroznaya]

Много моих студентов параноидны. Это очень знакомо.

"Barnowl", it's your turn to give us speech on Cherny. Preferably with links. I doubt the topic has exhausted it self. I would avoid self winking. It really looks bad.

[barnowl]

Inga...

I don't have a stance on Czerny.

Somewhere back in 1983-84 when I first started (and stopped) taking piano lessons, I bought the Opus 740 book, but my teacher didn't prescribe it. Hell, he didn't even prescribe Hanon either.

So here it is 2006. I came back to the piano, brought both Hanon and Czerny to my new teacher and she had me do a couple of lessons (32 and 34) from Hanon. On my own, I took on #'s 1-5, thinking we'd go through the whole book and I would then magically play at the speed of light. (A little poetic license here.)

Anyway, I then learn here on Piano Street, that Bernhard thinks ill of Hanon, and then I somehow got the idea - stupidly to be sure - that he approved of Czerny. So, I went and bought the CD  (which has yet to arrive from amazon.com) of Libetta playing all of Opus 740.

I don't know what self-winking is (I'd bet that's a Russian expression). Judging from the context of your post, it seems to be some kind of deception. I don't do that sort of thing.

I have no idea what that Russian line is in your post. Maybe I'd prefer not to know.  I hope it isn't too nasty, because I like you Inga.

[tibi]

sorry, i'm just wondering about debate on previous posting.

i thing, for me it doesn't matter wheter you do czerny or not. each individual may think that they need it and in other way, other think that they don't need to do such things.

i've an analogy.

in brasil, most football player are grow in the street. they don't have any coach to train them to jogging everymorning, jugling exercise, etc..... they learn everything naturally from the experience of every game they played.

but in contrast in england, kids from 7 years old are enrolled to football school by their parent. where in the school they will be train to do many basic of football playing.

can we judge that england player are better that brazillian? i dont think so.. and also in other way around we can't say that brazillian are better than england..

but at the end, when they start their profesioanal career, all must do many kind of trainings.. such as jogging, sprinting, shooting, heading, etc..

it just the same with piano. if you believe that you don't need czerny, just don't do it.. but if you believe that you need czerny, why you have to think more about others words? each of us is unique.

liszt may said that he did a lot of exercise, but horowitz also said that he didn't do sucht things. which method is suitable for you? only you yourself that know the answer? don't under estimate yourself by saying "i must do czerny to become great pianist" but also never ove restimate yourself by saying "i don't need any exercise". you are you're own police, just be honest and wise to yourself.

just a cent from me....

[tibi]

more on it......

i had experienced it myself..  with and without czerny.

i start my piano lessons when i was 5 (1991) from that years till 2001, i never played classical pieces, i just player reichard clayderman at that time. by years 2001, when i was 15, i hears mozart's alla turca, than i feel amaze.. than i start to study my fisrt classical pieces. my next piece is Fantasie-Impromptu. many said that i'm just a dreamer when i was practicing this piece. but i keep going on it. i do many repetitive in each motion ( i believe it can be a hundred a day). yes, i can do it, i can play the complete piece event in very poor performance. but i did it in about 3 months. at that time i believe that we dont need any exercise just like bernhard words.

and till this year, i made not to much improvement. but, starting from this june, i have a lesson with a famous pianist in my country, and she gave me czerny op299 and a lot of scale,arppegio,etc.  me myself just can't believe that now i can play some part that i used to slip before. also, i found that every pieces is easier to do. so, by now, i believe that i need those kind of exercise.

[barnowl]

Excellent contribution, Tibi.

I agree 100% with you, and wish you great success with your piano studies.

Thank you very much.

[pianistimo]

he who winks eyes when others are not looking should be locked up in the computer room where they get tongue lashings from other students who hate czerny.  then, you can complain.