a technical advice video from DUCHBAG - what do you think?

[stevie]

i went to france and captured this off tv 

i like his humility and ego, and his advice is interesting

you know, when all these debates go around about which method to use, observe that this man is a virtuoso and so his method is proven , possibly

[bernhard]

An interesting video, with the usual misconcetptions and logical errors. Who is the guy, by the way? He looks vaguely familiar.

So here is his text (in italics) with  my comments (normal typeface). I must also say that I feel it is a bit unfair to criticize his ideas in this format, because he did not really expand on them enough.

He starts by demonstrating a few technical exercises.


This sort of thing [demonstrates Hanon slowly] and of course the scales. Scales in thirds, in sixths and arpeggios, all sorts of formulas.

Perhaps the most interesting bit: he shows how to play scales thumb over – if anyone wants to see what it looks like, just watch it!

Which somehow goes against his devotion to Hanon & al. since all of these pedagogues insist on thumb under. I mean, is he not practising everyday Hanon nos 32 – 38 which expressly aim at thumb under, and prepare for the scales that follow? If he is going to do thumb over on the scales, why waste time on a bunch of exercises that prepare for a completely different motion? Surely a waste of time. Maybe he would have a good explanation for that. Maybe he just does the exercises that suit him.


Actually I don´t believe in technique while playing repertory.

Er… It is hardly a matter of belief. How can you play repertory without technique? While playing repertory should you have no technique?

Of course, what he means is that he does not believe that by simply playing the repertory one will acquire the necessary technique.

This is true. You do not acquire technique by simply “playing” the repertory. You must – as I have stated and reinstated many times – “work” in a definite and precise way to that end. The technique you will acquire thus, will be a consequence of the quality of your work. The worst quality comes from just “playing” the repertory. The best technique will be acquired by doing the full works. Anything in between is possible. His belief is really quite irrelevant to the point. It does not matter what he believes or not (as we will see later on).


I´m even rather against it because that way you transform the piece.

I just realized (with a shock) that he has no clue what it means to acquire technique form repertory and how to go about it. He probably thinks it means to play a piece over anv over again lifting fingers high in the most mechanical way possible. No wonder he does not believe in it.

It reminds me of the story of the simpleton who went to the drugstore to get some cockroach poison. The clerk handed him a bottle of poison pills. The next day he returned to the shop with the empty bottle:

“These were no good”.

The clerk was surprised:

“You could not kill any cockroach?”

“Just two. My aim is not very good and they kept moving!”


 Except for going through pieces slowly I´m against practicing technique on repertory even on the Liszt Transcendental Studies, or Chopin Etudes. In any case, you shouldn´t do it to excess.

Again, I realise with a shock that the man does not have a clue. Going through a piece slowly is not a method to acquire technique. Depending on what is meant with “slow” (as I have written extensively about in other threads there are three very different slow speeds) it is a method to streamline motions (the “choreography” of it all), a method to check on memorisatitn other than hand memory, and a method to involve different muscle groups in similar motions.

I am not sure what he means by “you shouldn´t do it to excess”. I take it to mean technical exercises (Hanon et al). Unfortunately he does not teel us what “excess” means: 10 minutes a day? One hour? Three hours? Once a week? Twice a week?

But he could also mean the Liszt and Chopin etudes.

On the other hand I´m in favour of pure technique as it appears in studies by Phillipe,  Hanon, Tausig, Brahms, Lizst, people like that.

As long as it is his personal choice, I have no problem with that. By all means do them. I do have a problem with what he says next.


I think that way you acquire the equipment, the reserve of power you need to tackle repertory.

He may well think that. In fact, (although the government and the corporations worry about that and are sure working a way to stop it) at the moment of writing anyone may think whatever they please (“Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one” )


In fact you appear to be using sport as your point of reference.

Exactly, the reference is to sport, just as it is for singers, and dancers, for example. Singers do vocal exercises to warm up the voice and also to cleanse their vocal chords, and dancers spend several hours a day at the barre.

Again, he seems to have just a superficial knowledge of the pedagogical issues both in singing and ballet. I can certainly imagine an equally ill-informed ballet teacher telling her students: “You have to spend hours at the barre. Just look at pianists: they too spend hours doing Hanon”.

Or since it is all sport (after all we do have piano “competitions” don´t we?) how come football coaches are not telling their players to do Hanon. (Maybe they are, I don´t know that much about football).


Why should pianists always have to play fast and overpedal to cover things up?

Sure, why overpedal? But how exactly is Hanon going to help here? As for playing fast, is it not the whole point (according to him) of doing exercises to have that extra reserve of power to tackle repertory? Is it not “fast” the only objective criterion with which to judge superior technique (according to the initiator of the thread)? So why exactly was this statement thrown in here? I am sure that the exercise fanatic is as prone to overpedalling and fast playing as its counterpart.


That´s often sheer dishonesty and I´m highly critical of certain teachers in this respect.

I am not sure what exactly is sheer dishonesty, and what is he critical of certain teachers. I take it to mean that not doing exercises is dishonest – although he may mean playing fast and over pedaling.

Is he critical of teachers whose students overpedal and play fast, or of teachers who do not assign exercises?

In any case, we see here one of the most common trends in debates of this kind. The moment one´s highly cherished beliefs (in this case the belief in exercises) are shattered and cannot be held anymore, one resorts to insult: the unbeliever must be dishonest – or more often (and I am surprised it has not been voiced here) simply “lazy”.

I regret that many young people who play very difficult works like the Liszt Sonata or the Chopin Ballades are incapable of performing and even and precise scale, what I call a machine gun scale. They do it like that [demonstrates]

Why should he regret it? The world of piano performance is a tough one where competition is savage. He should be happy this is the case, so that both he and his students – with their superior exercise acquired technique – can easily take the stage by storm.
 But they are note, are they?

I have never seen anyone who has mastered Chopin Ballades or the Liszt Sonata properly not been able to play a perfectly pearly scale – even if they never practise scales in isolation – simply because the proper rendition of these pieces demand that the proper technique for playing scales be completely mastered. I have seen many people with years of Hanon on their backs struggling with the scalar passages on these pieces because they were trying to do it with thumb under – the technique precognised by Cortot, Hanon, Pishna, Schmidtt and all of this mafia – a technique that cannot possibly deliver, but which is then totally ingrained on their faithful followers. In fact, the "bad" unequal scale he plays to demonstrate how a person who does not do exercises plays a scale, is almost always the result of trying to play a fast scale with thumb under - as precognised by all exercise manuals - and therefore it is the person who exercises compulsivley who is mot likely to suffer from that sort of limitation.

So who is being dishonest here? He did not bring into his video a pianist who could play a Chopin Ballade and then asked him to play a scale. Instead, he played the scale badly and said that was how the pianist would play. I for one am not prepared to believe him on the grounds of such flimsy and biased evidence. 


And yet they play repertory very well, they are good at expressing feeling, they have a certain strength of technique.

But when you ask them to play a certain scale, specially in C major which isn´t necessarily the hardest, or in a remote key like G# minor, this is what you get to give you an example [demonstrates].

I see. So let me see if I understand this correctly. Here is a guy who can play repertory not well, but very well. A guy who is good at expressing feeling, a guy who has a certain strength of technique. And what he cares about is that he cannot play a C major scale? Why? The audience is going to wildly applaud the guy and demand that he comes back and as an encore play a C major scale? 

Now I do not believe this to be true. If someone can play the repertory very well, express feeling and have a certain strength of technique, I assure all of you that this guy will be able to play a C major scale.  

But even if that was true, who cares? (“Oh, yeah, this was the most amazing hair raising performance of the Chopin Ballades I ever heard, but I have been told that he cannot play a C major scale”) Pulease.

But up to that point I was giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. However, at this exact point he lost all credibility by saying:

But when you ask them to play a certain scale, specially in C major which isn´t necessarily the hardest, or in a remote key like G# minor, this is what you get to give you an example [demonstrates].

C major is technically the most difficult scale to play. It has only white keys, which means that it goes totally against the anatomy of the hand. To play it properly (as indeed he does) demands four different basic motions perfectly integrated (as opposed to three basic motions in a remote key scale like B major which conforms perfectly to the hand´s anatomy).

Then it hit me. This guy thinks a scale in a remote key is hard, not because it is technically (motionwise) hard, but because he cannot remember the black keys unless he practices it everyday. To him C major is easy because having only white keys, he does not play wrong notes. And he believes that in order to know the notes of a scale he needs to practise them physically at the piano everyday. How pathetic. He has never heard of alternative – and much better ways – to get familiar with a key.

And I say that because otherwise, why would he consider C major one of the easiest scales to play?

He then goes on to demonstrate G# minor, and I was a bit lost here because I was not sure if he was demonstrating an “easier” scale, or if he was demonstrating “bad playing” of a G# minor scale by someone who does not practise exercises.


I myself have a weakness in my left hand, and if I was totally honest I should do a lot more practice with my left hand and even with both hands together, as well as my pieces.

So guess who was dishonest after all…


But one doesn´t always have the time.

Of course not. Especially if you are using all your practice time on exercises. But wait a minute? Wasn´t the whole idea of doing exercises about saving time, so that when we got to playing the pieces we would sail through them?

Oh, but wait a minute: This passage in this piece cannot be played with the technique I learned in Hanon. Even though the notes are almost the same, to get the proper musical sound I have to modify my motions. Darn! I will have to start all over again to acquire the technique. Oh no, look at this scale in my Mozart sonata. I cannot use the fingering I spend the last 6 months practising one hour a day! Dang! I will have to learn and practise the same scale with a totally new fingering!

Then again, perhaps he doesn´t have the time because he is lazy and would rather do silly interviews for French TV.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

you know, when all these debates go around about which method to use, observe that this man is a virtuoso and so his method is proven , possibly

Is he? Do you have a video of him (or one of his star students who did exactly as he told) playing something other than Hanon and scales (what he did in the video hardly leads to the conclusion that he is a virtuoso, or that his method is proven).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

https://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000CS43U8/171-1657560-3796251

nuff said 

duchbag is his SDC nickname, based on the similarity between his real name and the vaginal cleansing device - 'douche bag'.

[bernhard]

 

It would be interesting if he could expand on what he said - the video is really short, and perhaps does not do full justice to his views.

[mephisto]

It would be interesting if he could expand on what he said - the video is really short, and perhaps does not do full justice to his views.

The thing may be that he just is extremely talented, but doesn`t know what he is doing. Just like you said Liszt was, if I remember correct.

[counterpoint]

Duchable, the same guy, who let his Steinway drop in the sea from a helicopter?

Didn't seem to have a very caring relationship to his instrument

[lostinidlewonder]

I think he might be a good musician but doesn't know how to talk properly.

[stevie]

I think he might be a good musician but doesn't know how to talk properly.

its called 'french'

[living_stradivarius]

I disagree, one should practice technique in musical pieces, especially if you don't have all the time in the world like he does.

[bernhard]

its called 'french'

 

[bernhard]

Duchable, the same guy, who let his Steinway drop in the sea from a helicopter?

Didn't seem to have a very caring relationship to his instrument

Just found this on some news site:

French classical pianist FRANCOIS-RENE DUCHABLE is quitting the industry in protest at its elitism - by destroying two grand pianos and burning his recital suit at his last three gigs.

Duchable - who won France's soloist of the year title three years in a row in the 1990s - believes the piano is an "arrogant instrument", so at the end of this month (JUL03) he plans to launch his piano into LAKE MERCANTOUR in the French Alps in his first farewell concert.

The second farewell concert will see Duchable burning his recital suit on stage, while the last gig will see him blow-up his piano in mid-air.

He says, "I have had enough of sacrificing my life for one per cent of the population. I have had enough of participating in a musical system, which in France at least, function badly and limits classical music to an elite.

"Used as this society uses it, the piano is an arrogant instrument which excludes all those that don't know about music."


I must say that his protest would be far more effective if he had given me his two pianos.

[timothy42b]

1%?

I would think that the percentage of the population who actually listen to solo classical piano is FAR less than 1 percent.  Perhaps .01% would be more accurate. 

From that standpoint his elitism comment may have some validity.

However there other uses of piano (if we include keyboards).  There is rock, there is country western, there is pop, gospel, etc.  Once we include more genres, we are probably well above 90%.  There are those few people who don't listen to music at all, we can only pity them, but most people do, and most of it includes pianistic keyboard parts. 

Perhaps his skill does not extend to that. 

In some locations I would think above 10% of the population listens to accordion music, which any good piano player should be able to handle.  Even some bad piano players.  Note to self, start watching want ads for a cheap accordion. 

[pianistimo]

i can't get the video clip.  should i worry?  say, jean-yves thibodet is playing ravel's concerto for left hand - but i accidentally told my husband i wanted to hear beethoven's 9th a the mann center (lawn concert) with andre boreyko conducting.  hmmm.  oh well. 

[pabst]

more than 85% of the worlds population has never used a telephone. Go make a cell phone barbecue, retard.

[gruffalo]

why on earth would a someone be bothered about not being able to play a scale if they could play the Liszt Sonata? I cant make sense from this guy (not because of his accent), he contradicts himself and makes bizarre statements. i had to watch it a second time to realise that, whether he is right or wrong, he does not know what he is talking about.

Gruff

[pianistimo]

tickets were already bought.  they don't do refunds.  (that i know of).  in fact they charged an extra $5.00 for the convenience? of buying them over the phone.  i think that's to make sure that people are really coming.  it's like ur paying to assure them that u are arriving.  and then, they have the audacity to ask if u want to make a donation to the orchestra.  well, after paying for four tickets plus the five dollar courtesy - how much money do they think we have?

the only thing i can see, pabst, is to just pay for the ravel separately.  i take it that u'd rather hear that.  i'd like to hear both - but have to forget it because tommorrow is also my son's birthday - and thibaudet is playing tommorrow night at the kimmel center. 

[maxy]

Just found this on some news site:



He says, "I have had enough of sacrificing my life for one per cent of the population. I have had enough of participating in a musical system, which in France at least, function badly and limits classical music to an elite.

"Used as this society uses it, the piano is an arrogant instrument which excludes all those that don't know about music."
[/i]

I must say that his protest would be far more effective if he had given me his two pianos.

well, on the good side, he did make an effort... gave recitals in jails and in public schools. He was also seen on a piano-bike!   

[dbrainiak914]

And we're supposed to listen to this guy with Titanic music on his piano...

[bernhard]

I still think it is a bit unfair to judge him by just a few minutes of video.  The director of the documentary may have edited it, or he could have expanded on the issues more coherently on the rest of the documentary. He clearly can play the piano well, so it is a shame we cannot know more. (And the Titanic music may be a request from his students - or belong to someone else. We are assumig this is his house and his piano, but maybe it is not).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chromatickler]

two of his pianistic achievements include:

recorded the complete chopin etudes
recorded the complete liszt transcendental etudes in what was then the record (total) time, including a 6'15 mazeppa -now eclipsed by the berezovksy dvd

why on earth would a someone be bothered about not being able to play a scale if they could play the Liszt Sonata?

It's true there are some pianists who cant play a scale but could play the liszt sonata...





m*sically. in that case they should be bothered.

[arensky]

I will go buy the DB's Liszt rec, it's at the used bookstore downtown; hopefully it's still there. Then I will comment...

[quasimodo]

The funny part in his speech is when he describes the current generation of pianists like this :

And yet they play repertory very well, they are good at expressing feeling, they have a certain strength of technique.

While a whole bunch of supposedly insightful people precisely accuse the same young generation of being too focused on technique and not having the musicality of the former legends (the likes of Rubinstein, Horowitz, Cortot et al).

IMO, Duchable is the typical nevrotic/bitter musician who ended up drowning in his own contradictions. In another interview of his I read

I'm tired of playing for "specialists"

meaning people who do expect you to play specific stuff in a specific way. He's accusing the classical milieu, "the system" of not letting classical music have a larger and non-elitist audience. Give me a break... the audience for classical is 1% or whatever because the 99% others don't want to afford the intellectual investment it takes to appreciate classical and because they DON'T like classical, it's not as spectacular as the average  pop-music crap they're fed with, so why would they care? Actually in the time of Beethoven or Liszt, I don't think their audience represented more than the today audience for classical music.

I despise "the system" but rather for other reasons, mainly that it aims only at the big money and couldn't care less of artistic/aesthetic considerations (which by the way is detrimental to the "specialists" point of view)... But on the point of marketing the music to have it reach a larger audience, the system does what it can, hence promoting the image of classical musicians in a more modern fashion. One may not like it so, but in all honesty, one cannot say that the system is to be accused of making classical appear as unaccessible. And actually it is not that accessible without investing a serious share of time and intellectual energy to get the clues.

I'm slightly off-topic, as far as the point was about his views on technique. The thing is that there seems to be almost as many techniques as there are pianists so it sounds not so logical that a limited set of exercises would be the universal path to get to excellence. Let's not forget that pianists/keyboardists from Bach to Liszt didn't have Hanon or Pischna, so how comes that suddenly in the second half of the 19th century these exercises became by some sort of magic the only way to make it as a decent pianist? The day someone gives me a satisfactory answer to that, I'll consider changing my opinion.

The comparison with sports or dance is not relevant from a purely "technique" aspect. Professional sportspersons or dancers spend a lot of time exercising not in order to acquire the correct motions but mainly to build endurance and avoid muscular injuries. Yet, in music making, endurance is firstly mental (stay concentrated) and secondly more related to the ability to relax, to avoid joints stiffness than sheer physical condition. I can't see how Hanon et al could help that.