Question for the Sorabji lovers

[ahinton]

I have left a space for him to place his response.






























































































































































































































































































































Thal

What space you do waste, Thal, mon ami! You'll see my response below and, when you've done so, you can, if you wish, work out what percentage of the space you allotted for my response has actually been taken up by it.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what is the deal with Alistair Hinton and Sorabji?

The "deal" - if you wish to put it that way - is that I am the literary executor of Sorabji's work and have founded and run The Sorabji Archive, the latter of which facts should be obvious from - or at least implied in - my sign-offs here.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

Although I have been invited to explain the structure of this piece, I will refrain from doing so. Instead, on the assumption that you already possess or have access to a recording of the work, let me first draw your attention to the booklet (bookLET?!) accopmanying one of these that gives a run-down of the basic layout of the piece as well as Sorabji's own thematic table for it. Now listen to the Introito and remember its opening gesture (which returns only rarely in the piece as a whole at certain important points) and then wrap your ears around the fragments of chorale-melody which form the foundation of the Chorale Prelude that follows. Give yourself some time to get used to the treatment in these movements and then move on to fugue 1, the simplest of the four fugues in the piece. Its single subject (hinted at as the Chorale Prelude closes) begins with three notes which happen to be a transposition of one of Bach's organ fugues. This is a serious and somewhat dour fugue and, after the opening two movements followed by this, it's time for some virtuoso high jinks, fantasy, flying around the keyboard, freedom of movement - all in delightful contrast to most of what has gone before. Next, a double fugue - not so severe as the first one. Then a massive Theme and Variations - familiarise yourself with the theme and follow its many transformations. Time for a rip-roaring cadenza - not too long. Then another fugue, this time a triple one - the contrast between its subjects is greater than that between the subjects of the second fugue and the tension is ratcheted up as it progresses towards its conclusion. Next a scintillating Toccata - again, not very long - then a meditative adagio, in some senses the heart of the work as a whole (note the reference to the work's opening gesture just before the big series of chords that ends this movement). Next a Passacaglia with 81 variations - vast but not so hard to follow. Then another coruscating cadenza - very short this time. Lastly, the fourth fugue - subjects now even more contrasted in character - leading into the Coda-Stretta in which everything that has gone before gets thrown into the melting-pot. Yes, of course it's a massively challenging piece, yet following its sructure is not so hard if you concentrate.

Best,

Alistair

[quasimodo]

Mr. Hinton,

Do you consider Ogdon's interpretation of the OC as a good one, that is, a right representation of Sorabji's intentions?
I can get that one but I'm not sure if it is a good reference or not.

[ahinton]

Mr. Hinton,

Do you consider Ogdon's interpretation of the OC as a good one, that is, a right representation of Sorabji's intentions?
I can get that one but I'm not sure if it is a good reference or not.

It's certainly the best you can get at present. Jonathan Powell will eventually record the work and, as his public performances of it have testifies, his is the most accurate of all textually.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

Do you think Habermann will record it? He has done the intioto and preludio-corale, and plays them quite well.

[ahinton]

Do you think Habermann will record it? He has done the intioto and preludio-corale, and plays them quite well.

I cannot say for certain, but I very much doubt it.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

Any reason for the doubt?

[ahinton]

Any reason for the doubt?

Precedent (if that is reason enough - or at all); he has had some quarter century in which to do more of this work if he chose but, as far as we are aware, he has neither done so nor indicated anywhere publicly his intention or desire to do so.

Best,

Alistair

[nicco]

Gimme 1 million and ill learn it and record it.

[thalbergmad]

Gimme 1 million and ill learn it and record it.

1 million of what?

[ahinton]

1 million of what?

Good question, Thal!

Clara Schumanns Concerto is better than her husbands.

Mindful of the question that you just answered (and leaving aside your missing apostrophes in "Schumann's" and "husband's") - her husband's what?

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Hennes ektemanns hva for noe!?

Piano concerto.

And do I sence a somewhat bad atmosphere between Hinton and Habermann?

[debussy symbolism]

How do you suppose that someone who had so little understanding of the music to begin with would suddenly have developed so much more grasp of it just by virtue of meeting the composer? Sorabji discouraged public performances of his music for quite a few years because he did not wish to be misunderstood - and it is precisely the risk of the kind of travesty of his work offered by this particular pianist that prompted his stance in the first place. I can tell you that all the guidance in the world would have made no difference in this instance. I did not merely "dismiss" this pianist; I said exactly why the accounts I had just heard differed from the composer's intentions - and the pianist wasn't having this, so there was really bnothing more to be said. Once again, please remember that I was present to listen to this playing and I do know enough of the subject to recognise that what was played was largely unrecognisable as Sorabji.

Best,

Alistair

You claim that you didn't allow the pianist to play for Sorabji because of his lack of understanding of the music. I understand that. Sorabji also denied public performances of his music unless otherwise allowed. That I also understand. What I don't understand is, how is someone ever able to learn something if never taught? True, the "visit" probably wouldn't have had a great effect that years of study can produce, but wouldn't it be a start? My question is....Did Sorabji intend his music to be eventually performed in public? If yes, then some kind of teaching should be allowed and should be encouraged.

[nicco]

1 million of what?

Gimme a million money

[ahinton]

Piano concerto.

And do I sence a somewhat bad atmosphere between Hinton and Habermann?

I know that; I was merely joking with Thal.

If you sense any such atmosphere, it is in your imagination, so it is there that you should look for it.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You claim that you didn't allow the pianist to play for Sorabji because of his lack of understanding of the music. I understand that. Sorabji also denied public performances of his music unless otherwise allowed. That I also understand. What I don't understand is, how is someone ever able to learn something if never taught? True, the "visit" probably wouldn't have had a great effect that years of study can produce, but wouldn't it be a start? My question is....Did Sorabji intend his music to be eventually performed in public? If yes, then some kind of teaching should be allowed and should be encouraged.

Of course such teaching should be encouraged. As to the rest, I can only remind you, again, that you were not there on the occasion concerned and I was. I don't think I can add anything more on that part of the subject.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Gimme a million money

You don't specify the currency. Yen, perhaps? Even with the benefit of this money, do you feel capable of this task? Just curious...

Best,

Alistair

[nicco]

You don't specify the currency. Yen, perhaps? Even with the benefit of this money, do you feel capable of this task? Just curious...

Best,

Alistair

You are so smart 

Say whats the value of yen these days

[gymnopedist]

Quote from: ahinton on August 13, 2006, 10:31:53 PM
Hennes ektemanns hva for noe!?

Hinton speaks norwegian? Or was that just you, translating for fun?

[mephisto]

Hinton speaks norwegian? Or was that just you, translating for fun?

I think Hinton has quite a lot of knowledge about Norwegian geography, culture and history but I dont think he can speak Norwegian; so it was me who translated it.

[ahinton]

Just for the record, I do not speak Norwegian. I would add, however, that on a visit to Norway in the 1970s I encountered several Norwegians of around the age of 13-15 who also did not speak Norwegian. The difference here was that I do not speak that language because I do not know it, whereas these young lads did not do so as a matter of choice; when I asked them why they spoke English all the time, even amongst themselves, they replied that they saw even less future for the Norwegian language than they saw for the Welsh one and that, within a quarter of a century, English would be the world's most widely spoken language. Some of them had even absorbed different accents from various parts of England and Scotland as part of their evident linguistic Anglophilia. I should perhaps tell this to my neighbour here in Bath; he runs the Foundation for Endangered Languages, so maybe he will need to encourage the inclusion of the protection from the risk of extinction of the Norwegian language in the Foundation's activities...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Just for the record, I do not speak Norwegian. I would add, however, that on a visit to Norway in the 1970s I encountered several Norwegians of around the age of 13-15 who also did not speak Norwegian. The difference here was that I do not speak that language because I do not know it, whereas these young lads did not do so as a matter of choice; when I asked them why they spoke English all the time, even amongst themselves, they replied that they saw even less future for the Norwegian language than they saw for the Welsh one and that, within a quarter of a century, English would be the world's most widely spoken language. Some of them had even absorbed different accents from various parts of England and Scotland as part of their evident linguistic Anglophilia. I should perhaps tell this to my neighbour here in Bath; he runs the Foundation for Endangered Languages, so maybe he will need to encourage the inclusion of the protection from the risk of extinction of the Norwegian language in the Foundation's activities...

Best,

Alistair

Those have to be special cases. And they were wrong since Norwegian is still being spoken among at least 4,5 million people.

[ahinton]

Those have to be special cases. And they were wrong since Norwegian is still being spoken among at least 4,5 million people.

Indeed, on both counts - and, as I hoped you'd understand, my remarks about the Foundation for Endangered Languages adopting Norwegian as one of their causes was, of course, intended in jest. I rather got the impression that these young people were speaking English all the time in order to impress and be "grown up". For the record, if anyone needs to know, I would not at all advocate the demise of the Norwegian language.

Incidentally, one person I met in Kirkenes told me that, although fluent in Russian, he would not speak Russian on principle; I think I can understand his stance, given that this, too, was almost 30 years ago...

Best,

Alistair

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You are so smart 

Say whats the value of yen these days

Me az got a 60,000,000 mark note.

Thal

[ahinton]

Me az got a 60,000,000 mark note.

Thal

Well, if that note is a Reichsmark one, you'll have enough to purchase admission to Jonathan Powell's world première of my piano work in memory of Sorabji and have enough left over to buy him a glass of something appropriate afterwards.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Well, if that note is a Reichsmark one, you'll have enough to purchase admission to Jonathan Powell's world première of my piano work in memory of Sorabji and have enough left over to buy him a glass of something appropriate afterwards.

Looking forward to seeing you there!

Best,

Alistair

I thought it was free.

Must get a ticket.

Where to I get one from??

Thal

[pies]

Is there any information on Powell's Opus Clav recording other than that he is going to record it eventually?

I think that there should be a video of Powell's recording.  Preserve such a rare occurrence in both sound and video.

[ahinton]

I thought it was free.

Must get a ticket.

Where to I get one from??

Thal

NO - as the old song doesn't quite go, "the best things in life aren't free". Admission is £10 (I don't know how that converts from Reichsmarks at todays exchange rate) and admission will be by programme available on the door.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Is there any information on Powell's Opus Clav recording other than that he is going to record it eventually?

Not yet, sorry to have to say...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

NO - as the old song doesn't quite go, "the best things in life aren't free". Admission is £10 (I don't know how that converts from Reichsmarks at todays exchange rate) and admission will be by programme available on the door.

Best,

Alistair

£10 is good value. Just about 2 gallons of petrol.

Is this a long work, coz i is usually suffering from the trots and will need the toilet about 4 times an hour. If you could find me a seat nearest the bog i would be obliged.

Do i get a signed photo??. I would like to add yours to my collection.

I have got one of Giant Haystacks when i went to the wrestling.

Thal

[ahinton]

£10 is good value.

It is indeed - naturally, in so saying, I speak here not of my piece but of the piano playing of Jonathan Powell.

Just about 2 gallons of petrol.

I hope that, in so saying, you are not trying to frighten off any of our American friends who might want to come; after all, they're all moaning bitterly about the fact that a couple of gallons of that stuff now costs around 6 bucks...

Is this a long work,

Precise duration not yet known (this is a première, after all), but it is in the region of eighty minutes.

coz i is usually suffering from the trots and will need the toilet about 4 times an hour.

Trotting during the performance is not permitted, both on cultural grounds and in accordance with environmental health and safety regulations (Brits are awfully good at concocting those - and the dafter the better - as you surely know already) - not to mention the risk of unwelcome distractions to the performer; if your urinary relief requirements determine the need for you to visit the gentlemen's closet every fifteen minutes on average, it would seem that a leg-bag would be necessary in this instance, although I should point out that one is not included in the admission price.

If you could find me a seat nearest the bog i would be obliged.

Seats are on a first-come, first-served basis and are not reserved in advance, so I suggest that you turn up reasonably early and plant yourself on one such seat for your - er - convenience (if you see what I mean).,

Do i get a signed photo??. I would like to add yours to my collection.

These are also not included in the admission price but, if you bring along any CD whose booklet includes such a photograph, i will be happy to sign it for you on the occasion.

I have got one of Giant Haystacks when i went to the wrestling.

Then I cannot for the life of me imagine why you'd want mine - which, I might add, is substantially smaller; I wrestle only with notes (although, as the title of that early Elliott Carter piece notes, "Musicians Wrestle Everywhere")...

Best,

Alistair

[jre58591]

Do i get a signed photo??. I would like to add yours to my collection.

you can take this one with you. alistair is 2nd to the left.

[pies]

Hinton looks like a hippie.

[ahinton]

Hinton looks like a hippie.

Why are you so insulting - to hippies? No hippies I ever heard about dressed like that, anyway. In any event, the ensuing years have contrived (conspired, if you will) to ensure that I look nothing like that now (assuming that I ever did in the first place).

Best,

Alessandro non hippicus

[JCarey]

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

The funny thing is that you actually think you have a clue as to what you're talking about.

I think it's impossible for a fugue to have random notes. The OC has four fugues (or ten, if you divide them into sections) and each of them are treated fairly conventionally. The melodies are far from being random. The entire piece is tonal for the most part. The final movement is a combination of all of the work's previous melodies (of which there are over 20) played simultaneously. Hardly any of the chords are really that dissonant, let alone random. All of the movements are interrelated and tied together through Sorabji's ingenious use of past thematic material and harmonic progressions. The two variation movements are just that... variations on a theme... which can't exactly be "random" either. I see no randomness in this piece what-so-ever... care to explain?

I don't think you've ever heard this piece, let alone studied it. Even if you owned either of the recordings (both of which are nothing to write home about) you would AT LEAST see the structure of the work by looking at the track list. So please, give us all a break. I know of hardly any Sorabji haters that didn't feel foolish and subsequently retract their statements once they've actually given him a chance.

Ignorance isn't a crime, but in my opinion, making false, gratuitous statements based on ignorance is.

[ahinton]

The funny thing is that you actually think you have a clue as to what you're talking about.

I think it's impossible for a fugue to have random notes. The OC has four fugues (or ten, if you divide them into sections) and each of them are treated fairly conventionally. The melodies are far from being random. The entire piece is tonal for the most part. The final movement is a combination of all of the work's previous melodies (of which there are over 20) played simultaneously. Hardly any of the chords are really that dissonant, let alone random. All of the movements are related, and tied together through Sorabji's ingenious use of past thematic material and harmonic progressions. The two variation movements are just that... variations on a theme... which can't exactly be "random" either. Hmm... I see no randomness in this piece what-so-ever... care to explain?

I don't think you've ever heard this piece, let alone studied it. Even if you owned either of the recordings (both of which are nothing to write home about) you would AT LEAST see the structure of the work by looking at the track list. So please, give us all a break. I know of hardly any Sorabji haters that didn't feel stupid about it later.

Ignorance isn't a crime, but in my opinion, making false, gratuitous statements based on ignorance is.

Thank you for your eminent and welcome good sense here. I had already asked what was supposed to have been meant by "random" in this context and it will no more have escaped your notice than it will that of other readers that no response to this question has yet been provided. Beyond that, I need add nothing to what you have already said!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

you can take this one with you. alistair is 2nd to the left.

I am so tempted, but i must refrain.

Thal