One piece that stretches your limits to the max?

[Chitch]

Is there any one piece that truly challenges your physical abilities in all or almost all aspects of music playing?

[comme_le_vent]

there are 'bad' ones by sorabji xannis etc..., but ones that are actually kick-ass music - alkan concerto for solo piano and symphony for solo piano, they test every single fibre of your musical and pianistic armoury, for a single movement try the 30 mins 1st mvt of the concerto for solo piano - its a MONSTER , as for shorter pieces - godowskys chopin studies are incredibly difficult musically and technically, if you can play these with artistry you can practically play anything with artistry.
for a single piece though...concerto for solo piano by alkan.

[steveolongfingers]

I find not playing music written down half as hard as improvising.  I'm in a jazz trio where i play the piano and sometimes the guitar.  I find impovising the most challenging part b/c you have to think what will sound amazing and be techinally jaw droping.  

The way we "jam" is start with the drummer doing a jazzy beat and then the bass adds a line and then i play over top.  Its really quite amaingly fun....and can be really hard if you want in that way.  You can do time signature screw ups where you play like in 7/8 while the other people are in 4/4.  Yeah its hard and pushes the bar higher than playing and etude or concerto that ive played (which is only one!)

ive never heard of thealkan though, ill look in to it

[krenske]

um.. call me lazy but...
just the first section of Dante sonata renders me in la la land

[eddie92099]

ive never heard of thealkan though, ill look in to it

Do, it is a wonderful piece,
Ed

[Beethoven87]

Maybe it's just me, but since I started playing piano at five, I've always found it far easier to improvise than to do almost anything else at the piano.  People have told me I'm gifted...  I don't know.  But since a real young age, I've always been able to improvise and play melodies I hear without seeing any music.

[Rach3]

Rachmaninoff third concerto. A somewhat expected answer, but very true. Despite the extreme physical effort, the hardest part is reducing it all to something that sounds "natural" and easy. Nowhere near any nice result, yet.

Many less-evil pieces, Beethoven and Chopin &tc., also challenge my physical ability greatly, but to a much lesser degree (such as octaves of Chopin C# scherzo).

[comme_le_vent]

are you insane rach 3? alkan's concerto for solo piano is not only longer, and more difficult in general, it is all SOLO, when someone writes a 50 minute cadenza for rach 3 you may have an argument. but till then your insane.

[Dave_2004_G]

Yeh but the original question was 'what piece stretches you to the limit?' not 'what is the most difficult piece of piano music?'

Dave

[comme_le_vent]

same difference, it stretches your physical/technical abaility, and your musical ability to the absolute limit. It has to have a sense of concrete structure to it, but also a sense of romantic drama and freedom, the emotional range is also as extreme as you can get, ranging from simple solo melody lines and chopinesque beautiful lyricism to furiously apocalyptic parts and overflowingly joyful outbursts. it is also incredibly difficult to memorise and learn because there is hardly any repetition whatsoever, whenever a theme is repeated it is with a new or different technique. simply put - this is THE *** of the piano repertoire.

[Dave_2004_G]

Yeh but unless you're Horowitz or something a piece like that doesn't 'stretch your abilities to their limit' it goes so far that you can't actually play the piece

Dave

[comme_le_vent]

come on dave..letterman is it? you sure seem to be a kidder, this is exactly what the post asked for, and most people can play this piece if they put their minds and WHOLE LIFE to it...hehe

[Efarstan]

i vote for Beethoven "Appassionata" or..Listz "Mephisto Waltz"

[eddie92099]

i vote for Beethoven "Appassionata" or..Listz "Mephisto Waltz"

,
Ed

[chopiabin]

Truly.

[Rach3]

are you insane rach 3? alkan's concerto for solo piano is not only longer, and more difficult in general, it is all SOLO, when someone writes a 50 minute cadenza for rach 3 you may have an argument. but till then your insane.

I am not insane, I am not capable of playing the Alkan concerto either. The Rachmaninoff concerto is so much better a piece... alkan may be viciously virtuosic, but to someone who can master the fast big notes (i.e., Horowitz), there is not much left, whereas in Rachmaninoff, even after mastering all the notes (and many have), there is so much left, thus we have the Horowitz Rach 3, and the Ashkenazy Rach 3, and the Argerich Rach 3... proof of the incredible depth and genius of the composer. To a great musician and pianist such as Horowitz or Argerich, Alkan is a difficult etude, but it hardly stretches the physical abilities to the degree that Rach 3 does. You scorn the Rach 3 cadenza because it is under half an hour long and can be played with only two or three hands... but there is more thought and effort in those four pages than in an entire Alkan movement... I agree the Alkan concerto is quite nice, but in my humble opinion it is deserving of the semi-obscurity it gets.

Listz "Mephisto Waltz"

Can be played while sleeping, with no great loss to the music.

[chopiabin]

Without looking at it, it seems to me to be pretty much octaves, double octaves and glissandi.

[Rach3]

What is, Chopiabin?

[comme_le_vent]

Rach 3 - youre a complete pregnant dog, why do you hit me where it hurts? the alkan concerto is 10 tons more difficult that rach 3 - and i like it more. thats right - I LIKE ALKAN'S CONCERTO MORE THAN RACH3. I have listened to it over and over. AND OVER. It is one awesome kick-ass piece of music , with more depth than the mariners trench. and its not even his best piece!
suck on that Rach3 - wear your dumb-boy cap and sit in the corner!
the MASTER's word is FINAL!!!!!!!!!

[comme_le_vent]

complete bastard
biiaatch comes out like pregnant dog

[eddie92099]

I agree the Alkan concerto is quite nice, but in my humble opinion it is deserving of the semi-obscurity it gets.

I'm sure Alkan thinks the same of you, and I would have to respect that because he wrote the Concerto which is a magnificent piece of music,
Ed

[comme_le_vent]

See - Ed the LEGEND has backed up me - the MASTER, you are completely and wholly defeated you worthless piece of magnificent prime pork.

[cziffra]

yeah, and YOU'RE a silly tutu face with NO FRIENDS!  Na na na na NA NA, i've got ice cream and you don't!  na na na na NA NA!

[eddie92099]

yeah, and YOU'RE a silly tutu face with NO FRIENDS!  Na na na na NA NA, i've got ice cream and you don't!  na na na na NA NA!

How immature. Nobody else on the forum behaves like that ,
Ed

[meiting]

:-/

jeez. and I thought I saw immaturity on this forum before..

Re original question, no.

[comme_le_vent]

i agree, immaturity sickens me to *** death

[liszmaninopin]

I don't know how many of you have ever even heard of it, but from what I've played of it so far, I'd say Violette's Sonata 6 is tough.  Really tough.  In just the first 2 pages, I think it hits every note on the keyboard in jumps that at times cover several octaves, striking them very fast as well, with a range in dynamics from pp to ff.  To tell you the truth, while I find his other keyboard works interesting, I really like Sonata 6.  Unfortunately, there's no recording out there.  If I learn this piece well by the time I audition for a conservatory, I could perform it as modern or contemporary.

[IgnazPaderewski]

Alkan concerto, despite some rather banal moments and occasionally overdone textures, is a wonderful piece of music. Suck on that, asswipes. Too many bloody notes (speaking as a pianist), but tremendous stuff.

Rachmaninoff 3 is a piece of piss compared to the major works of Alkan - and dont you dare say that Rachmaninoff is "musically harder".

For a truly hard piece, not including meaningless cockspam like Sorabji, try Alkan "les quatre ages", mvts 1&2. As well as being tough on the digits, there are a number of very problematic phrases and textures (beginning 2nd mvt).

[steinwaymodeld]

Alkan concerto, despite some rather banal moments and occasionally overdone textures, is a wonderful piece of music. Suck on that, asswipes. Too many bloody notes (speaking as a pianist), but tremendous stuff.

Rachmaninoff 3 is a piece of piss compared to the major works of Alkan - and dont you dare say that Rachmaninoff is "musically harder".

For a truly hard piece, not including meaningless cockspam like Sorabji, try Alkan "les quatre ages", mvts 1&2. As well as being tough on the digits, there are a number of very problematic phrases and textures (beginning 2nd mvt).

THX GOD someone FInally mentioned ALKAN!!!!

His sonata Les Quatre ages, is impossible to play, if you don't believe me, go listen to Hamelin's playing or get a copy of his 'supervirtuoso documentary' he plays the whole Op.33 movement 1,2,3,4 (age 20,30,40,50) in the video. You will be shocked!!!!!

He also played the 3rd movemnt of the Concerto for piano solo. It's a bloody beautiful piece, and i can't compare this to Rach3. But i think technical wise, Op.39 is harder than Rach3. BUt it doesn't have the reputation of Rach3 since not a lot of people even know the name Alkan.

[eddie92099]

Having just listened to Hamelin's Alkan discs, following the scores, I would have to agree,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

Are there any recordings of this Alkan concerto anywhere online?

[liszmaninopin]

By the way, Ignaz;

The Rach 3 is not a piece of ****, thank you very much.  It may not be as hard as Alkan's Concerto, but don't demean it.

Also, while Sorabji did produce quite a bit of musical junk, he also produced some worthwhile pieces.


Maybe I should practice some Alkan, I'm curious to see how hard it is relative to that Violette I was talking about earlier.

[eddie92099]

Are there any recordings of this Alkan concerto anywhere online?

Only a midi recording at www.classicalarchives.com (I presume),
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

Well, they have the third movement, I'm listening to that now.

[liszmaninopin]

Well, it was good, but I didn't like it all that much.  I suspect that the first movement might be more interesting, I've always liked first movements for some reason.

[steinwaymodeld]

i can upload hamelin playing the Concerto for solo piano movemnt 3 if you guys want

a very beautiful piece.

[chsmike2345]

Judging music by technicality is demeaning. Technical aspects of music is only to be able to express yourself, and that's what music is all about. I would not hesitate to compare a slow piece full of emotion to a fast piece full of notes and say that the slow piece would stretch you to your limits. Remember, technical things can be worked out and taught, but emotional aspects are up to you. If the piano was only about who had better technical skills, then classical piano music can be compared to saying that since one writer types faster than another writer, the faster typer is the better writer. Doesn't make sense does it? Same with piano. Passion, artistry, and skill makes the piano player. Yes, skill is necessary to be able to communicate your heart, but it's only the connection between you and the instrument. But only your heart is between you and the music.

[Motrax]

I must agree with chsmike2345.

Comme_le_vent, you are being a hell of a prick. Are there any moderators on this forum? I just joined, and the first thing I see is some random guy double-posting immature rants at someone else who's trying to carry on a decent discussion.

Out of curiosity, how many of you are professional pianists?

[comme_le_vent]

hey man!
im a highly respected member of this community ill have you know.........

im a legend in my own country

[Motrax]

I'm a highly-respected member of another internet community, but that doesn't excuse me from behaving in a decent manner.

Perhaps I over-reacted, although no matter how "respected" you may be, it never hurts to re-evaluate your own actions. I apologize for calling you a prick, as I was rather incensed that the time after having read the discussion at hand and your particular approach to it.

[comme_le_vent]

give me a break, im going through a rough break up. i need to let loose sometimes.

[anda]

i'll start by admiting i never saw the score to the alkan concert - actually, no alkan scores are available over here - so, if you know where i could download something (for free:)), please tell me.

so, based on my experience only: the work that most exhaustes me physically would have to be prokofiev 3rd concert or khatchaturian d flat concert. as for general demands, most demanding would have to be beethoven sonatas (especially 109) and mussorgski - pictures...

[bitus]

You people... if you want to fight go fight in another topic! The question was "One piece that stretches your limits to the max?" Nobody asked you what was the hardest piece. For somebody it might be Fur Elise, or Traumerei... so don't act like there's nothing you can't play perfect. Respect other people, even if they're not as good as you say you are!!
For me, Ravel's Tombeau de Couperin is hard to play in the tempo written there, especially the toccata (at 144 per quarter.)
The Bitus.

[Rob47]

Liszt's Valle D'Obermann from Annees de pelerinage may be relatively easy(technically), but as far as the expression you put into the piece it can be tricky sometimes but incredibly rewarding.  Its really an incerdible playing experience.

But ya I've seen that japanese super virtuoso video of marc andre too and thats pretty ridculous stuff...especially those etudes rewritten by godowvsky...the g flat for left hand alone wow.

Rob

[The Tempest]

And here lies a technically weak, amateur pianist struggling with Chopin's 2nd Scherzo and pondering in awe how a human being is capable of playing Alkan at all.

[Shagdac]

A piece I really stuggled with for awhile was Moszkowski's Etude in F major op.72 no.6. Not so much that it was technically difficult, however getting it up to speed really took some work. Heroic Polonaise is another, but again my hands are an the small side, so some of it is a stretch for me, and really tends to tire me out.....but I love it anyway!

[Gambit]

Yeah Alkans works are very hard but sounds mechanical IMO

I cant believe no one of you have mentioned Beethovens "Hammerklavier" or Chopins sonata num 3, Liszts sonata in B minor or Mendelssohns Varations Serius.

Forget about Alkan

[rachlisztchopin]

I don't know much about modern composers, but is there music extrememly difficult technically and musically..because the theory makes no sense whatsoever?

[rachlisztchopin]

also i do believe that the Rach3 is musically more difficult...I have this beautiful classical composers poster with over 900 composers and it gives each on one of four ranks (based on cultural and historical importance) and Rachmaninov is a 2nd rank wheras Alkan is 4th rank

[steinwaymodeld]

also i do believe that the Rach3 is musically more difficult...I have this beautiful classical composers poster with over 900 composers and it gives each on one of four ranks (based on cultural and historical importance) and Rachmaninov is a 2nd rank wheras Alkan is 4th rank

it's just stupid how people love to classify stuff and make it in order of so called 'rank' in their own preference

i wonder which rank Clementi ranks? Below Chopin i bet

but don't forget Clementi is 'the father of pianoforte'

so there you go.