Piano Forum



Remembering the great Maurizio Pollini
Legendary pianist Maurizio Pollini defined modern piano playing through a combination of virtuosity of the highest degree, a complete sense of musical purpose and commitment that works in complete control of the virtuosity. His passing was announced by Milan’s La Scala opera house on March 23. Read more >>

Topic: The damper pedal is a manice  (Read 1946 times)

Offline myotherself

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 10
The damper pedal is a manice
on: September 29, 2006, 08:48:30 PM
Spend a day just working on using the pedals properly all you amatuers, it is the pedal which is the most important part of a performance and so many of you screw it up.

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 09:00:10 PM
manice?  or menace?  what country are you from?  i think you are an alien.  but, you probably play piano really well.

you know what i think part of the problem is.  many people do not have pianos that are built to last.  that function properly.  i mean - some people have 80 year old pianos for the name chickering.  how can you play if the pedals stick and the keys are already stuck down in three places?  or, for someone who ONLY has accoustic.  you can learn where all the notes are - but playing on a regular piano is probably a necessary thing to learn to pedal properly. 

also, many teachers do not know how to teach proper pedalling.  this is one of the most neglected areas of expertise.  i think it radically switches from composer to composer.  you don't flutter pedal (as with debussy, liszt, chopin) as much in brahms and beethoven - although flutter pedalling is becoming quite important to me.  a very light flutter (on top of the pedal) for debussy, etc.  but a sort of deeper pedal and then sudden lighter three quaver pedal to lose the heavy reverb of the bass in sudden sfp's in beethoven and so forth.

i have no idea how scriabin viewed pedalling.  perhaps you can enlighten me.  i don't play him much - but i printed out a few pieces of his to attempt to learn.  some composers used an actual pedal piano (below the regular keyboard) as mozart - and actually wrote several piano concertos with the lower octaves being supposed to be played by the feet.  who would know nowdays?  i think the piano that mozart has has been destroyed or lost.  someone recreated it - but i forgot his name.

some people can't pedal because they have huge feet and have to turn them sideways to just get a toe on.  some people have small feet and weak ankles.  this is where working out is important - working out pedalling, i mean.  practicing strengthens the ability for the foot to go up and down (of course it doesn't have to go up and down very much because the pedal-point is really a minute space of 1/16 of an inch).  if you are a beginner - likely you are 'slapping' the pedal.  later - you refine it to a close shave.  and after that - you start not even using it if it isn't necessary to the sound.  i like the muted sounds of combining the damper pedal with the una chorda pedal.  perhaps some pedalling is not even for pedal effect - but more for sound effect? 

Offline netzow

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 09:13:12 PM
Do you mean to imply that you are a professional? Just wondering.

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
if he posts on the 'grammophone forum' then he obviously is getting satisfaction knocking us down a few rungs.  but, we already know where we stand.  if we were posting there - we'd be bashed every minute.  or, might not even know what they were talking about.

hey.  you have to start somewhere.  and, there's some people on this forum that are concert artists - so you can't bash everyone.  i say - if you are a teacher - you have to have some patience.  what student is going to stick with you if you constantly tell them they play like *.  of course, in the upper level piano lessons that's probably all you will hear.  you just have to develop an ability not to cry.

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #4 on: September 29, 2006, 09:50:04 PM
one last question i have.  my last teacher said something to the effect that the feet should always be over the pedals but not necessarily playing on them.  how do you lightly hold your feet over the pedals without accidentally pushing them down?  it seems to me a matter of endurance.

i thought - (and perhaps this is an assumption) that one should put the left foot flat occasionally when not in use. 

is this a typical misunderstanding - and that feet should always be over the pedals (both the left and the right - una chorda and damper?) 

also - is it true that debussy once suggested playing two and three pedals with one fell swoop?  sort of 'lets just try everything at once?'  perhaps leaning more on the left side than the right.  what was he drinking anyways?  left foot between the two left pedals and right foot on the damper.

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #5 on: September 29, 2006, 09:52:55 PM
ok.  here's the real last question.  what concert artist do you feel is consummate with pedalling (as ricardo muti is with conducting?)?

Offline pianowolfi

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5654
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #6 on: September 29, 2006, 10:22:22 PM
ok.  here's the real last question.  what concert artist do you feel is consummate with pedalling (as ricardo muti is with conducting?)?



 ;D

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #7 on: September 29, 2006, 10:30:30 PM
wow.  that is cool.  he is hot!  to see his foot on the pedal!

Offline myotherself

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 10
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #8 on: September 29, 2006, 10:50:27 PM
manice?  or menace?  what country are you from?  i think you are an alien.  but, you probably play piano really well.

you know what i think part of the problem is.  many people do not have pianos that are built to last.  that function properly.  i mean - some people have 80 year old pianos for the name chickering.  how can you play if the pedals stick and the keys are already stuck down in three places?  or, for someone who ONLY has accoustic.  you can learn where all the notes are - but playing on a regular piano is probably a necessary thing to learn to pedal properly. 

also, many teachers do not know how to teach proper pedalling.  this is one of the most neglected areas of expertise.  i think it radically switches from composer to composer.  you don't flutter pedal (as with debussy, liszt, chopin) as much in brahms and beethoven - although flutter pedalling is becoming quite important to me.  a very light flutter (on top of the pedal) for debussy, etc.  but a sort of deeper pedal and then sudden lighter three quaver pedal to lose the heavy reverb of the bass in sudden sfp's in beethoven and so forth.

i have no idea how scriabin viewed pedalling.  perhaps you can enlighten me.  i don't play him much - but i printed out a few pieces of his to attempt to learn.  some composers used an actual pedal piano (below the regular keyboard) as mozart - and actually wrote several piano concertos with the lower octaves being supposed to be played by the feet.  who would know nowdays?  i think the piano that mozart has has been destroyed or lost.  someone recreated it - but i forgot his name.

some people can't pedal because they have huge feet and have to turn them sideways to just get a toe on.  some people have small feet and weak ankles.  this is where working out is important - working out pedalling, i mean.  practicing strengthens the ability for the foot to go up and down (of course it doesn't have to go up and down very much because the pedal-point is really a minute space of 1/16 of an inch).  if you are a beginner - likely you are 'slapping' the pedal.  later - you refine it to a close shave.  and after that - you start not even using it if it isn't necessary to the sound.  i like the muted sounds of combining the damper pedal with the una chorda pedal.  perhaps some pedalling is not even for pedal effect - but more for sound effect? 

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #9 on: September 29, 2006, 11:33:40 PM
i did break it up into paragraphs.

Offline netzow

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #10 on: September 30, 2006, 12:43:50 AM
i did break it up into paragraphs.

Yes, and I'm still dying to know what a manice is.

Offline gyzzzmo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2209
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #11 on: September 30, 2006, 03:23:16 PM
one last question i have.  my last teacher said something to the effect that the feet should always be over the pedals but not necessarily playing on them.  how do you lightly hold your feet over the pedals without accidentally pushing them down?  it seems to me a matter of endurance.

i thought - (and perhaps this is an assumption) that one should put the left foot flat occasionally when not in use. 

is this a typical misunderstanding - and that feet should always be over the pedals (both the left and the right - una chorda and damper?) 

also - is it true that debussy once suggested playing two and three pedals with one fell swoop?  sort of 'lets just try everything at once?'  perhaps leaning more on the left side than the right.  what was he drinking anyways?  left foot between the two left pedals and right foot on the damper.

I think its endurance yes. Just play lots of piano and learn keeping your toes there, it will go automaticly then. I always keep my toes above the pedal and i have no problem keeping them there for multiple hours in a row.

gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline pianistimo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12143
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #12 on: September 30, 2006, 04:54:19 PM
thank you for the reply.  that is what my teacher seems to do effortlessly. 

also, my teacher said it is imperative to have harder soled shoes than some use.    and squared toes, if possible.  i decided right away to try to find a pair - but it took several stores.  i found a pair of pumps that have a sort of squared look (hard to explain) and medium height heel.  they are GREAt for pedalling and i'm so glad not to slip off the pedals with pointed toed shoes.  also, the sole is fairly stiff - so there's not a lot of effort needed.

Offline gyzzzmo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2209
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #13 on: September 30, 2006, 05:30:40 PM
I kinda have to disagree with your teacher. Hardened soled shoes might be helpfull but really isnt imperative. Training it by doing it alot is by far most important. I often practise the piano without shoes and that goes fine too. But in this case i use the complete forside of my foot instead of the toes only.

gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline rc

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1935
Re: The damper pedal is a manice
Reply #14 on: September 30, 2006, 07:52:05 PM
I'd agree with gyzzzmo, shoes and such are nitpicky and youcould get used to any crazy thing...  I remember watching this lady playing organ in high heels, using the toe AND the heel on the pedals, zipping around, really tearing it up.  Was fun to see.

By default I practice w/o pedal most of the time, and that's given me good results so far.  Having to learn to connect as much as possible with the fingers, sparing pedalling, by the time I get to practice on a real piano it's a matter of icing the cake.
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert