Chopin Op 9 No 1

[steve jones]

Hi all,

I started this piece two days ago, and Im really liking it. Everything seems to be coming together great.

Except for one stumbling block!

Im having serious problems coordinating the two hands in bar 2 and 3. I can play HS no problem, but the clashing rhythms of 11 against 6 is causing me all sorts of issues.

Any suggestions for this? Right now Im just playing the bass note and then continuing 

Thanks for all and any help,

SJ

[nicco]

Try splitting them in half, so you get 6 vs 3 and 5 vs 3 and afterwards just put them together. There is no answer to when the notes should hit eachother, just make it so you get them all, and that the start and ending are somewhat together, although the RH should finish just after the LH.

[desordre]

 Dear Steve:
 Let me quote what I wrote about the same question in other thread:

(...)
 First, you have two very different problems: m. 2 (11 x 6) and m.3 (22 x twice 6). Notice that although matematically 22 x 12 is the same of two times 11 x 6, musically it's not.  Chopin was not the first to use rubato, but he used it a lot, and that's what we are talking about. The basic idea is keep a regular, steady left hand in the arpeggio, and let the melody flow above it. Forget about something like "this note is together with this one, and that is in between this and that, and the other is here". The result of such is poor, and sounds very bad.
 So what you need is this steady arpeggio and this flowing melody. The question that arise (and that's your real question, forgive me for the introductory words) is how to get there. The principle is very simple, but sometimes it takes a long time to render. Study hands separate this way:
 - LH with metronome, and - very important - with a strong sensation of beat, of rhythm and of regularity. Basically, start reinforcing the bass, and playing as even as you can the arpeggio figuration.
 - RH: when you get the proper idea of the arpeggio, and have a clear sensation of the frame of time that you have, start playing RH alone, without metronome. It's very important to say that you are not trying to play regular: you must play with great freedom and flexibility. How will you phrase this is upon you. It could be helpful to play always slightly different.
 Of course that, before this stage, you must be able to play this very quickly. When you have an idea of the phrase, use the metronome. Although the quarter is not the beat, use it as a reference. So, you will have three quarters plus six quarters to end your phrase, and in this practice one thing must be achieved: the b-flat (m.2, second beat), the f (m.3, first beat) and the d-flat (m.3, first beat) have to be played exactly with the metronome.
 
 Then, and only then, you will join hands. The goal is absolute independence. However, if this is your first time around with such a situation, it can keep a very long time indeed. Don't worry if you have to work on this passage for a couple of months. Anyway, it depends on the individual: maybe in your first week of practice you will be playing this smooth and controled.
 (...)

Hope it helps. Best wishes!

[quantum]

In addition to the good advice given above. 

You could start to play HT quite fast then slow it down and refine it.  Another problem with these long polyrhythms is that you can't see the big picture at first.  Playing it faster than normal may help you to realize the overal structure from which you can begin to shape your rubato. 

[steve jones]

Doh, sorry guys, I didnt notice the other thread!

But thanks VERY much for the suggestions. Iv been stuck being working out the hands against each other, or just trying to play it independantly. I cant do the latter, so Im left trying to work it out.

Hopefully once I can play it rigid and get used to it, I'll be able to loosen up and a little.

Cheers!

SJ

[steve jones]

Ah, I just read some of the posts and it seems I am coming at it from the wrong angle entirely. Think I know how to work now.

Thanks again,

SJ

[rhapsody in orange]

nice piece =) hope yu'd have a great time learning it!

[steve jones]

I most certainly am! Thanks

Im doing Op 55 No 2, Op 9 No 1 and No 2. If I can get these down, Im dying to have a go at Op 48 No 1, but its a little do hard for now.

The Nocturnes are such amazing pieces though, and accessible for me right now.

SJ

[rhapsody in orange]

Hee you might wanna have a go at Op72 no.1 (E minor) if you haven't done so.. yet another beautiful nocturne