Chopin etude op.10 no.4

[humblemonkey]

I put a question about this in my "19yr old beginner..." post, but I thought I'd put up a separate post.

I have played through the whole of the etude am having trouble with the technique involved in measures 2-3 in the right hand, measures 6-7 in the left, and all others like it.

What kind of movement should I be looking for? my fingering (in the right hand) for the first (of the troubling measures) is 1-3-2-5 and for the second, 1-2-5-3. is this purely a finger movement, or is the wrist the main actor in executing these pieces? 

Cheers
Humblemonkey

[pianistimo]

i have been printing out the cortot edition - but trust my last teacher implicitly for good fingerings, too - so i will give you mine.  it probably depends on your hand size.  also, the more you practice this piece you will find a 'flow' to the way your hands move.  now, if i remember right - i was picking up the vibe that one should always try to stay somewhat centered between large groups of notes.  you can do a swivel or swirl  - but try to make it less and less wrist and more and more just simply playing the notes with as flat of hand and fingers as possible.  i sort of dropped onto the b# with finger 1.  (1234 on b# c# d# e#).  each sequence in this paderewski edition is marked as starting with 1.  the last note of the second measure i have as 2 - so it continues 3 4 25, 1325, 1325, 1325.

if you want more fingering - i can give you some.  i think i used the drop technique for measure three - but not from a high position.  very very low to the keyboard.  a sort of fish flop - if you want to call it that.  also, as you get into measure four - angle sort of 30  degrees toward the high notes that are sharped.  it really helps not to miss the chromatic notes.

[pianistimo]

as soon as you let go of your thumb - let it follow your hand naturally.  don't try to keep your fingers spread all the time.  in fact, i learned also to 'zip' sideways to high notes that i couldn't play together and they sounded fine. 

[humblemonkey]

I have been working on your suggestions and they have been working well. Hard to not leave the thumb behind, but I'm working on it and making some solid progress.

Thanks for the advice
humblemonkey

[liszt-essence]

Just curious

You said in your other post that this is your first week of piano playing.

EVER?

or.. did you learn to sightread piano sheetmusic before or have experience with other instruments?

IF not.. then I think it's absolutely amazing you can play through the whole of 10.4

[humblemonkey]

Yeah, this is my first week of piano playing ever. But I spent about a couple of weeks beforehand learning how to read music, and learning the notes on the piano, so I started playing right at the beginning of the week. 

Thanks a lot for the encouragement actually. I really have no experience to judge my progress by. I've heard convincing arguments on both sides of the debate about whether one can progress to the concert stage as a late beginner. I guess my plan is to find out first-hand the answer (well at least for me).

[ganymed]

what you are learning this etude with only a few weeks of experience O_O!
can you please post a recording after finishing that etude im very curious

[humblemonkey]

Sure thing. But don't be expecting that recording next week or anything - got exams on you see! No, but seriously, will do. Just finished Bach's 1st invention...its a lot easier. I rang up my local community centre, because they do monthly concerts, and I put my name down for January, so hopefully will perform the etude then.

Basically, I know exactly what I want to hear, and experiment until I find that sound - then keep whatever the movement was that elucidated the sound. Is this a long-winded way of going about things? I have been following Chang's and Bernhard's advice about practising in small sections (I do it in ten minute sections) and that seems to be working.

I've also ordered Fink's book and dvd. I've read some really good reviews on here, but is it helpful to the uninitiated?

Cheers
humblemonkey

[ganymed]

I dont want to sound discouraging but ....

it is very counterproductice to start with this piece o_o rather stick to the inventions and play a few of those then go over to pieces with three voices in order to practice pholyphonic playing.
but starting off with opus 10 of chopin is very lunatic and insane. maybe you are prodigy and can play this piece despite being a beginner lol im very curious! who knows

O_O

[humblemonkey]

That's okay, no-one wants to sound discouraging, and I don't want to sound defensive, but: I am working on inventions, I have completed bach's 1st and 14th invention, and his prelude AND fugue in c major. I am working on multiple pieces at once, not concentrating solely on this etude.

I asked for advice on a very specific part of this etude - I even stated that I had played through the whole thing. If I said "I've been playing for a week, and I started this etude and the whole thing is giving me a headache, maybe that's a sign I'm being an idiot. But most of this piece flows naturally for me. I am no prodigy, but I have no problem with relaxation. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that I also teach wing-chun kung fu. 

In all seriousness, I wouldn't even look at something with double thirds or sixths at the moment - I have no idea how to approach such techniques yet. I did not mean to cause a stir, and maybe should have left of that I am a beginner. However, I was in the beginning asking for a plan as to how to go about learning technique, someone suggested chopin etudes so I tried a couple. pianistimo suggested a couple of pointers to me, and they are working very well.

How can something be counterproductive if I am learning through the process?

I am not telling anyone not to rubbish me, and ganymed, I do appreciate your concern. It is a lot better than people just telling me I'm a loser, and a prima-donna. I welcome constructive criticism. But I feel I'm doing well with this piece given that I've been working on it for two days.

Feedback is more than welcome

Cheers
humblemonkey

[jolly01]

I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, but when you said you completed Bach's 1st invention, it made me want to speak up.

That's okay, no-one wants to sound discouraging, and I don't want to sound defensive, but: I am working on inventions, I have completed bach's 1st and 14th invention, and his prelude AND fugue in c major. I am working on multiple pieces at once, not concentrating solely on this etude.

I am not trying to put you down or discourage you, I have no position or experience to do that.  What I question is how you "completed" the invention in contrast to a lesson from Bernhard (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html)

I have only been playing for less than two years and am unable to find a teacher in my town, so am trying my best to surround myself with as much theory, knowledge, etc as possible.  That includes reading several books on theory, harmony, and a great deal of this forum.  The above link to Bernhard's method of teaching Inv. No 1 was really an eye opener into just how much underlies some/most of Bach's works.  He goes on to say (and I paraphrase), that in general it takes the student 20-40 days to learn (and that includes daily lessons and practice).  It is only then that you begin to master it and really practice it (again loosely paraphrasing from several posts).  Regarding following Chang's book, just the time alone to learn and work through all of his methods/exercises would take weeks, and I really believe it is worth the time.

Can you learn it faster than I can?  Everybody is different, and it doesn't really matter to me.  What a lot of people who have been in this discussion and your other topic have been saying is there is much more to just hitting the notes with the correct fingering.  To parallel this, you wouldn't turn a kung-fu student into a master by just teaching him/her the physical motions.  There is also the balance and weight distribution, under that is the internal manipulation and transfer of energy, and over all that is the philosophy and mindset built on millenia of fine tuning.  But then everything is relative including your goals.

Regards
Brian

[freakofnature]

Dear humblemonkey,

Forgive me, but I'm becoming 'slightly' suspicious here. If I haven't counted incorrectly, you are playing piano for 10 days today. And you say you have completed the following works:

- Bach Invention No 1
- Bach Invention No 14
- Bach Prelude C Major WTC I
- Bach Fugue C Major WTC I (according to my piano teacher one of the harder fugues)
- Chopin Prelude No 20
- Beethoven 'Für Elise'
- Satie Gymnopedie I

and are working on (or maybe you've already finished):

- Chopin Prelude No 4
- Chopin Prelude No 7
- Chopin Etude op 10/4

So, if these pieces that you say you have completed are really at an performable standard (and I think that it means exactly this - otherwise they wouldn't be completed) you might be the greatest pianist prodigy to ever walk the earth. I mean, most of these pieces are quite doable for a normal beginner (excluding the Bach fugue and the Chopin etude) but not at that speed. I mean - you say you've learned the notes, polished the pieces, brought them up to speed, worked on dynamics, phrasing and so on of 7 pieces in 10 days and are working on at least 3 more. Without ever touching a piano before... Sorry, but I cannot believe that. I doubt that even the greatest prodigies in piano playing history were that good! But if you are then you might become the first pianist to learn every single piano work that's ever been written! ;-)

You might think of doing the following: I think every piano teacher offers a free hour so that you can see if you two can work together (at least mine did). Maybe you could see one and play your pieces for him and hear what he has to say. If he thinks that your playing is good, he might even give you lessons for free - I myself wouldn't let go of such an oppotunity to teach a prodigy...

Best wishes,
FoN

PS: I hope this post doesn't come across as overly rude - but this is really beyond my understanding...

[humblemonkey]

No worries, but this is probably where the fact that I'm a beginnier shines through most obviously - when I said completed, I meant notes memorized etc. Obviously a striking error for which I apologize profusely!

I have not finished (notes memorized) the two chopin preludes or etude yet.

Only two of those pieces I would consider performing at this point in time: bach's prelude in c major, and chopins op.20 prelude.

I hope that gives a clearer picture to all who are equally suspicious

humblemonkey

[cloches_de_geneve]

Why on earth did you choose op 10/4 from all the etudes??! It is, in my modest view, beyond good and evil to start working on ANY of the chopin etudes after 10 days of playing the piano, but to choose one of the most difficult borders the insane.

Let us know when you can play the first page seamlessly in normal tempo, share the recodring with us, and we shall all be struck with awe, reverence, and endless admiration.