Halleluja, I have seen the light

[pianistimo]

notice 'excluding the control region'...that means mitochodrial dna.  they can't disprove it, so they move it over.  it's just the way it is.

[ahinton]

Where's the goddam' light switch?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

NOT TRUE.  are you for lies or truth.  do you really want to know.  then ask questions and get involved.  don't sit on the sidelines and wave flags this way and that.

i have a bachelors degree and am half-way through a grad degree.  does this mean that i got there by no science classes and no math classes.  i don't think school is an end-all - but i do not believe every textbook.  that's all i'm telling people.  read the books - but read the bible, too.  everyone thinks their thoughts are better than God's.

I am for truth, you are for ignorant faith based on nothing.

What do you have a bachelors degree in?. Please post a copy of the ceritificate.
If you have got one, there is a chance for all of us.

Perhaps a degree in learning to switch your computer off would be of benefit.

[cmg]

dear cmg,

i never said 'eternity is endless time.'  where did i say that?  you assume a lot, too.  you assume you know more than God.  if He says 'in the beginning - then you and mr. richard dawkins are full of ***.

Dear pianistimo, I have offended thee.  My apologies. 

Yes, I often do assume a lot, but, no, I do not assume that I know more than "God," because "God" is the antithesis of intellectual conditioning, and therefore exists in a dimension in which I am not granted residency.  Presently, that is.  (We do indeed live in hope!)

And you said I was full of asterisks!!!  Is that contagious??? 

[pianistimo]

no.  it is not contagious and sorry for getting rabid.  it is in my irish nature to beat men.  i want to beat thal.  with a wooden spoon.  over the head.  many times. 

[cmg]

There once was a lady from Reading
Who took up the notion of beheading
She thought of her pal, whose nickname was Thal,
And that's the direction she's heading.

[ahinton]

There once was a lady from Reading
Who took up the notion of beheading
She thought of her pal, whose nickname was Thal,
And that's the direction she's heading.

But...

There once was a lady from Philly
Who wondered if 'twas rather silly
So she called up her God, who said "yes, it's quite odd" -
Then she just gave it up, willy-nilly.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

gave what up?  oh. thal.  yes.  fairly unreachable, that chap.  i could try to tempt him with my yard.  stick. 

you two are consummate limericists.  i actually live near the town of 'limerick.'  the fire engines are green.

for cmg

he sat on the couch
and then said a loud 'ouch'
but the symptom was worse
than the bite

cause the psycoanalyst said
he was scratchy and red
because of imagining --
'it's all in your head.'

the nit was unpicked
and continued untricked
until festering late in the night

and after the session
(which included confession)
he checked the lump
on his head

with one last scratch
he drank down the hatch
the last of the scotch and the rum

and what happened next
could have perplexed
the most modern doctor
of science (and psychiatry)

one bottle alighted
and spilled on the afrighted
nit of the nitscratching head

proving one thing for sure
that one never knows the cure
but it's sure to happen after
nit befur.

[pianistimo]

for alistair:

he composes opus clavicumlisticum
on the dictums of kitties pernisticum
and the two of them sing
while ahiton does ring...

the bell for kitty dinisticum.

[asyncopated]

faith is what separates believers of God (and His Word).  faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the Word of God.  if you do not listen to it - how can i teach you - as you teach me?  if i don't read a science book and debate issues with the language that you use - then i cannot have a conversation.  likewise - if you read a few of the psalms (which, imo, is a good starting point) - then we can discuss likewise.

I keep and open mind I ask him questions.  I sometimes read the bible for fun.  Still no answer.  Like I say, you need to give me a recipe, like baking a cake, or his phone number, or some method of measuring god, so even if I can't communicate with him i know he is there. 

the bible IS God's word by the fact that it cannot be proven false by history, science and/or archeology, geology, zoology, all the ology's.  the more you study the creation - the more it is apparent that it is divinely designed.  explaining an ant - is just as difficult or harder than a planet.  that's what some scientists say.

This is pure bullshit. A good amount written in the bible can be proven false, on the contrary almost non of it can be proven true, in a factual sense.   I won't even address the logical fallacy in your statement. Like I say the bible is simply not a factual book.  Its stories are fables, and tell you about other things, which are important in life.  Fact is simply not one of them.  In my opinion, its a better book because it does not deal with fact.

proving that i am not dumb is relative.  say i have  a rabbit over here and he muches lettuce and types on the internet excessively.  at least i am competing with likeminded pianoforum addicts - and have a role to play in encouraging people to not 'do as i do' - but more 'as i say.'  i mean - right now i should be transposing this stupid song by sister sledge for a kindergarten group - because they can't sing the really high version.

Just say something smart for a change, like demonstrate some understanding of how the world around you works, not in the context of the bible or god, but just a statement about how the physical world is .  That would be sufficient proof for me. So far, sadly you haven't even been able to do that. 

[ahinton]

gave what up?  oh. thal.  yes.  fairly unreachable, that chap.  i could try to tempt him with my yard.  stick. 

Is that a euphemism for the pole that you use for pole dancing? If so, then there's absolutely no "lead us into temptation" for me there...

you two are consummate limericists.  i actually live near the town of 'limerick.'  the fire engines are green.

Why? - do the said fire engines run on solar power? Never mind that. You Amurricans are just SO unoriginal - you just pinch the names of our UK places and use them as though you thought of them first! ("just kidding", Susan dear) - actually, no, I'm not kidding entirely - for a few miles north of the city where I live there is a little village called - wait for it - Pennsylvania...

for cmg

he sat on the couch
and then said a loud 'ouch'
but the symptom was worse
than the bite

cause the psycoanalyst said
he was scratchy and red
because of imagining --
'it's all in your head.'

Er - the scansion seems to have fallen apart abit here - to the extent that Limerick is no longer in Ireland (but, as I recall, you did just say it was somewhere near you in Penn)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Please note that our resident chaplainess has now turned into our resident poetess; I think that we'll now all have to call you "poetesstimo"...

Bestimo,

Alistimo

[pianistimo]

dear asyncopated,

my recipie: -  schedule a hike or walk in a quiet area of nature (near your home if you want) and take a long walk.  ask God a few questions along the way and pose it as that you want proof that He exists.  He says He is not far from each of us.  and, yet - we are far from Him.  if we 'draw closer' it is by prayer and meditation.  that is why Christ would often go away in a boat - or climb a mountain - or go somewhere where there weren't a lot of distractions.  distractions can be the computer, too, as i know well.  when you are away from any kind of temptation and distraction - you have a clearer focus.  this can be for mathematics, or science or whatever you are studying.  but, in this case - it would be God.  take in all the things that you see and don't TRY to make sense of it.  just try to feel it.  to sense it.  to sense God in the midst of it.  to sense God walking WITH you.  I don't think He is far from us.  I think he sends His angels, too - so we have much help - beyond what is visible.  don't rely soley on the visible elements if you want to experience God, joy, depth - to your personal life. 

now, before the next time you go out - read a portion of the bible that encourages you for something personal in your life.  an entire chapter - and not a verse.  read it and then think about it - and ask questions about it.  that is exactly what we do with professors.  you have to know the material before you can have a decent conversation.  and, when you have it - you'll be amazed at things that DO pop into your head via 'inspiration.'  this type of thing is not uncommon for people who are able to 'tune in' to the wavelengths that God provides.  we know there is radio static inferring 'microwaves' in the universe.  but, what if we could see that direct transmission links from our brains to His.  why would this be impossible?  He made us to communicate with Him through the Holy Spirit.

when you want a dose of that - start going to church.  immerse yourself in not just the 'motions' but the heart.  remind yourself that you are a child of God and that He wants you to be with Him at all times and not just for the good times.  that is the way a true loving family works.  God is there whether we are experiencing the greatest highs or the deepest lows.  that is why i like to read the psalms because there is hope even in depression.  there is hope that God will lead us out of 'valley's of shadow of death.'  even if we are experiencing a sickness or illness- He is there to heal us.  why else would He have been beaten - 'by His stripes you are healed!'  ok. enough on that 'recipie.'

now - to your other questions.  i have to read them and think.

[pianistimo]

'i won't even address the logical fallacy...'  is not disproof.  you are asking me to prove God exists.  i give you a recipie.  now, with the information that i have gleaned (albeit not from astrophyicist classes) i have found out about mtdna and also the idea that the earth is radically RADICALLy different than the universe (heavens).  it is full of life, water,  soil, seed, song, breath, seasons, atmosphere (did you realize other planets have quickly lost their atmosphere- why is ours still here - albeit the greenhouse gasses are depleting the ozone layer).  but, of course, to understand things requires a lot more study and knowledge.  but each thing i learn - proves God's existence to me.  maybe i cannot see what you see - and you cannot see what i see - but we are looking at the same things. 

i do not think that i am any dumber than my iq would say.  i happen not to know my exact iq - but i did pass the CBEST test which is required for teachers in california.  this must mean that i am not a slouch either.  perhaps my study of music doesn't mean that much to you or thal - but that doesn't matter to me really - because the information that i've learned has allowed me to make some extra income (not as much as my husband ) and feel useful to society beyond the typical 'in-home' activities of taking care of a family.  there is a lot of knowledge that isn't really 'deep' that is still useful.  for one, taking care of children takes a lot of careful planning.  i've noticed that you can't just plan to do something without forethought to make it successful.  i don't think i'm unsuccessful at what i do.  caring for my husband, children, home, and making time for music and community in my life. 

[pianistimo]

ps that limerick for cmg doesn't mean i don't think psychoanalysts are very very useful doctors.  it was just a limerick that popped into my head. 

[ahinton]

my recipie:

Pie-making now, is it? Seasonal game ones, one presumes...

-  schedule a hike or walk in a quiet area of nature (near your home if you want) and take a long walk.  ask God a few questions along the way

You didn't tell him that he'd need to take his cellphone, nor - more importantly - did you give him God's number so that he can attempt to initiate this conversation...

and pose it as that you want proof that He exists.  He says He is not far from each of us.  and, yet - we are far from Him.

That's quite a geographical conundrum for both of them, surely?

if we 'draw closer' it is by prayer and meditation.  that is why Christ would often go away in a boat

A booze cruise, I'll bet! (well, He must have learnt how to turn water into wine somewheres)...

- or climb a mountain - or go somewhere where there weren't a lot of distractions.  distractions can be the computer, too, as i know well.

Yes - we know that too, Susan dear!

when you are away from any kind of temptation and distraction - you have a clearer focus.

So please stop trying to tempt me with your yard stick and distract me with all this imagery...

this can be for mathematics, or science or whatever you are studying.  but, in this case - it would
be God.  take in all the things that you see and don't TRY to make sense of it.  just try to feel it.  to sense it.  to sense God in the midst of it.  to sense God walking WITH you.  I don't think He is far from us.  I think he sends His angels, too - so we have much help - beyond what is visible.  don't rely soley on the visible elements if you want to experience God, joy, depth - to your personal life. 

Do please bear in mind - or at least consider countenancing the possibility - that you may have put poor "asyncopated" off walking in the countryside for life...

now, before the next time you go out - read a portion of the bible that encourages you for something personal in your life.  an entire chapter - and not a verse.

"Asyncopated" might well be very "averse" by now...

read it and then think about it - and ask questions about it.  that is exactly what we do with professors.  you have to know the material before you can have a decent conversation.  and, when you have it - you'll be amazed at things that DO pop into your head via 'inspiration.'

Yes - sometimes you have indeed "amazed" us, dear Susan...

this type of thing is not uncommon for people who are able to 'tune in' to the wavelengths that God provides.

Thank God (well, why not?!) for BBC Radio 3...

we know there is radio static inferring 'microwaves' in the universe.  but, what if we could see that direct transmission links from our brains to His.  why would this be impossible?  He made us to communicate with Him through the Holy Spirit.

Er - pardon? Never put spirits in the microwave; this can have very dangerous consequences! Radio Static doesn't broadcast in UK, by the way...

when you want a dose of that - start going to church.

What? They have microwave and radios and spirits in Church? My oh my! Penn's a strange place, for sure...

immerse yourself in not just the 'motions' but the heart.  remind yourself that you are a child of God and that He wants you to be with Him at all times and not just for the good times.  that is the way a true loving family works.  God is there whether we are experiencing the greatest highs or the deepest lows.  that is why i like to read the psalms because there is hope even in depression.  there is hope that God will lead us out of 'valley's of shadow of death.'  even if we are experiencing a sickness or illness- He is there to heal us.  why else would He have been beaten - 'by His stripes you are healed!'

OK - let's get back to being serious. I know from what you write here that you are after good things and mean well - and I am not doubting the sincerity behind some of what motivated you to write the paragraph above, even if I cannot personally share certain of its specifics - but my medical insurance policy doesn't have God on its registered list of practitioners...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

i happen not to know my exact iq - 

I am sure it is almost double figures.

[pianistimo]

almost.  oh. thanks.  and here's a whap from my yardstick.

[ahinton]

i happen not to know my exact iq

I am sure it is almost double figures.

almost.  oh. thanks.  and here's a whap from my yardstick.

I think that Thal means that he "figures" that it is almost "double" his - so please put away your yardstick - and do also remember, next time you're at the checkout of a supermarket in your local shopping mall, the mantra "IQ, therefore I am"...

Best,

Alistair

[asyncopated]

'i won't even address the logical fallacy...'  is not disproof.  you are asking me to prove God exists.  i give you a recipie.  now, with the information that i have gleaned (albeit not from astrophyicist classes) i have found out about mtdna and also the idea that the earth is radically RADICALLy different than the universe (heavens).  it is full of life, water,  soil, seed, song, breath, seasons, atmosphere (did you realize other planets have quickly lost their atmosphere- why is ours still here - albeit the greenhouse gasses are depleting the ozone layer).  but, of course, to understand things requires a lot more study and knowledge.  but each thing i learn - proves God's existence to me.  maybe i cannot see what you see - and you cannot see what i see - but we are looking at the same things. 

i do not think that i am any dumber than my iq would say.  i happen not to know my exact iq - but i did pass the CBEST test which is required for teachers in california.  this must mean that i am not a slouch either.  perhaps my study of music doesn't mean that much to you or thal - but that doesn't matter to me really - because the information that i've learned has allowed me to make some extra income (not as much as my husband ) and feel useful to society beyond the typical 'in-home' activities of taking care of a family.  there is a lot of knowledge that isn't really 'deep' that is still useful.  for one, taking care of children takes a lot of careful planning.  i've noticed that you can't just plan to do something without forethought to make it successful.  i don't think i'm unsuccessful at what i do.  caring for my husband, children, home, and making time for music and community in my life. 

Actually that quote was with regards to the bible being the word or god (whatever that may mean to you).  anyway, I'll be happy to take some walks in the countryside, or whatever countryside I can find in london, when I can peel myself away from work.

I'm now deeply confused as to what constitues a proof of god's existance.  In your opinion, which of the following proves that god exists?

a. Monkey climbing trees
b. Bush being elected for a second term
c. Cosmic microwave backgroud radiation
d. Nintendo releasing the wii
e. Sony getting screwed
f. The earth is covered with water
g. Sainsburys (supermarket) near me is open 24 hours
h. Millions dying of HIV
i. Trains arriving on time in the UK
j. Russian spy gets poisioned by polonium 210, converts to islam and dies
k. Newton and his laws
l. Pianistimo getting a degree
m. Asycopated believing in god

[timothy42b]

if the bible mentions the 'leviathin' - and 'behemouth' - isnt' it possible they existed together pre-flood-  and that dating of their bones is inaccurate?  and people DID die out - at the SAME TIME - at the flood.

Everybody knows leviathan = crocodile and behemoth = hippopotamus, both known to Middle Eastern peoples, both present in the Nile.  Read the Bible for yourself, you'll see, but this is what Biblical scholars have concluded. 

No, it is not possible that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.  There are no human fossils found with dinosaur fossils.  More important, there are no dinosaur bones, only fossils. 

Fossilization is rare, of course, and we all understand why.  Conditions have to be just right, almost miraculous (hmmh) to produce a fossil.  Unless of course you had an event like the global Noachian flood.  That would have buried everything altogether in ideal conditions for fossilization, and we would have millions of times as many, and they'd be all mixed together.  No, the lack of fossils is proof there was no flood. 

The white cliffs of Dover are made up of fossils, by the way.  Hard to figure how a flood could have done that, right? 

[pianistimo]

between finding out about pennsylvania being a real villiage not far from london and sony 'getting screwed' - it's a small world.  i'm sure sony getting screwed would prove the existence of God to way more people than just americans.  and, yet - i happen to like sony and samsung.  in what way did sony get screwed?  i haven't been watching the details.

ok.  here's how i see the absolute proof of God.  He was actually born and walked among us - and yet we did not recognize him.  that is what the christ- mas season is all about.  now, why would people still be celebrating this?  even if it is combined with mithraic ideas about the solstice?  most people who are christian do not want to celebrate mithraicism - so just ignore that right now.

i happen to believe that wherever one is at in their walk with God - it's ok.  He's not nitpicking over his own birth.  this site seems to prove that Jesus Christ was actually born in the fall  www.members.shaw.ca/hdokter/birth.htm  but, whatever the case - there is really no disagreement between jews and christians that HE WAS BORN. 

even our calendar - the best proof of all is BEFORE THE COMMON ERA.  common to what?  in early times (julian and gregorian calendars) the term BC referred to 'Christos' - and AD was a longer term = Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi or 'In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ.'   why is this part of a ROMAN calendar?  i believe after Christ died - so many unusual things happened that even the romans decided to remember it.

ps i believe Christ was conceived on or near Christmas - so he still entered the physical world in the darkest time of the year.  christmas trees used to represent to some in the middle ages - the tree of LIFE that was in the original garden of eden.  if you take from that - you have eternal life.  therefore the 'golden fruit.'  But, we know that God is our life and breath - if we believe.

[pianistimo]

ps i happen to believe also, that my getting a degree would not particularly affect anyone in any particular way.  i already have a bachelor's - but working on the graduate degree was something else!  (hopefully it would at least effect some good on my concert pianist plans - and audiences).

changing the subject slightly - did you know...according to the recent reader's digest (please be polite) that four million household robots will be in use worldwide by the end of 2007.  now for this prophecy to come true - everyone needs to go and buy one as a present for their loved ones.  you can order a robot vaccum here:

www.plamondon.com/rural-living/rural-roomba-robots.html

before you let it loose - i hear it has a good effect on children 'don't leave anything on the floor- i'm about to the let the robot loose....'

[cmg]

for cmg

with one last scratch
he drank down the hatch
the last of the scotch and the rum

"the last of the scotch and the rum,
And thought:  'tis best to be totally numb."

Poetessima supremissima irritablissima, we hail Thee!!

[pianistimo]

yes.  i suppose adding that fourth line, might add some pizzaz to an otherwise unusual three lines.  i tried to make the three lines into four - but couldn't.  so then i kept making occasional three liners.

if noah got drunk immediately after the flood (probably the stress of it all) - i suppose that drowning your sorrows occasionally is probably good for the soul.  on a constant basis - we call that addiction.  i think there's someplace in proverbs that says wine is actually good for your heart.  but i don't take that as a biblical prescription or anything.  moderation in everything is probably the best.

[asyncopated]

i happen to believe that wherever one is at in their walk with God - it's ok.  He's not nitpicking over his own birth.  this site seems to prove that Jesus Christ was actually born in the fall  www.members.shaw.ca/hdokter/birth.htm  but, whatever the case - there is really no disagreement between jews and christians that HE WAS BORN. 

Nope, we are nitpicking over whether he is the son of god, or whatever theological assigned status is relavant, such as whatever the holy trinity might mean if you do believe it. Or whether god exists in the first place for there to be a "son" whatever that may mean to us human beings.  If you think about it carefully, god having a son is a weird concept.

Pesonally I think jesus was a prophet, no more or less than mohammad was.   Whether he was loony or not is another matter altogether.  If I don't believe that the homeless preacher on my street corner, is the prophesised second coming why should I believe that christ was the first?

The second thing about what you say about calenders and all that.  The matter of fact is that socially, we adopt who or what was culturally powerful and still do. This is called naming rights.  It's no coincidence, the roman catholic church being rich (and perhaps even corrupt) for a long time, sets the standards on some things.  This is certainly not evidence of god, just the power of the church. 

BTW, christmas was actually celebrated as the festival of the winter solstice.  Which happens on 21st Dec. Over the years, because of inaccuracies in the calender it has shifted to the 25th.  It was hijacked by the catholic church who stated that it was to do with the celebration of the birth of christ.  There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever (in the bible or otherwise) that christ was born on the 25th dec.  There is also no evidence that he as born on 1 AD.  In fact, real historians (?) think that we are off by ~3-4 years (?). Given the events described in the bible of the stars etc.

I don't know how accurate these things are. I'm not able to value the quality of the work.  But here is one account

https://www.op.org/op/ebaf/inwhat.htm

[pianistimo]

but, the romans did not believe in Jesus Christ until they saw proof of the ressurrection.  this is where archeology has provided some insights to their acknowledgement of a man/GOD called Jesus CHRIST.  CHRISTOS.  GOD.

i don't know what to say about the 'Son' part because as Christians - we only understand what information we are given.  we are told that we are 'children.'  but some of us are adults.  are we then also 'children.'  i think it is in a context of 'spiritual children.'  So the Son is a spiritual Son of God.  we will be 'born again.'  but not of flesh.  does this mean we enter our mother's womb again.  no!  we'll be born of spirit.  how?  i don't really know.  it's a mystery!

here's joke just for you using christian's logic trying to convert athiests:

God is love
love is blind
stevie wonder is blind
therefore stevie wonder is god
therefore god exists

now, i'm not saying i believe this.  it's just a joke, ok.

[asyncopated]

i don't know what to say about the 'Son' part because as Christians - we only understand what information we are given.  we are told that we are 'children.'  but some of us are adults.  are we then also 'children.'  i think it is in a context of 'spiritual children.'  So the Son is a spiritual Son of God.  we will be 'born again.'  but not of flesh.  does this mean we enter our mother's womb again.  no!  we'll be born of spirit.  how?  i don't really know.  it's a mystery!

Let me nitpick at this.  I think it is interesting. So, in human terms i know what the word son means.  There are two possible meanings.  Biological meaning.  From dna, a child takes on direct genetic characteristics of both parents.  We can test this to very very high accuracy if required.

There is also a relationship meaning.  Like if you have foster parents.  It means that we have a place for some figure(s) that take care of us and of our well being.   I suppose this meaning is more appropriate to the bible.   The term childern of god tries to define a type of relationship that we should expect with god.  He is the father/mother figure.

When you say christ is the son of god, and when you say we are childern or god, you don't really mean the same thing do you? 

Afterall he is of god, and shares the same "essence" whatever that may mean, and we are only made in the "image of god" (again funny words). I don't think it's physical image, but maybe image in the capacity to concieve ideas and think.  I don't think it's wise as of now to give a physical form to god, therefore we can't be made in his physical image. 

Anyway, so I don't quite understand what the relationship between god and christ and god and us and christ and us are.  I know what is written in the bible, and explained by the catholic church (holy trinity and all, christ walked on earth to give the ultermate scrifiice, to atone for the sins of our past, so that we can turn to him and enter the kingdom of god etc. etc. ). But, I still don't understand.  They are just words to me.  Something  I can regurgitate, nothing more.

What you do think?
 

[prometheus]

Most historians conclude that there is not even convincing evidence for a historical Jesus.

[pianistimo]

the bible says that no man has seen God - but ezekiel saw and met him in a vision (or dream).  he even saw the throne of God. 

(btw my computer has a virus where i can neither use apostrophes or quotation marks)

ezekiel 1: 25 - 28 ....now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure WITH THE APPEARANCE OF A MAN.  then i noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him.  as the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance.  such was the appearance of the likeness OF THE GLORY OF THE LORD.  and when i saw it, i fell on my face...

[pianistimo]

now when Jesus was ressurrected and appeared to the disciples, he told them not to touch Him as he had not yet ascended to the Father.  that would indicate to me that He is a separate being - begotten by the Father, receiving the Holy Spirit from the Father, and returning to the Father.  if they are all truly the SAME beings - how could they also 'do' different things?  I believe that it is through the WORD that they are united.  and through the Spirit that they do the work.  they are united in thought. 

as i see it - (and this is different than catholic trinity) - the Spirit proceeds from the Father, to the Son , and then to us - as we were given the gift of the Holy Spirit after Christ ascended to the Father on the day of pentecost.  Now, if we have the same ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT - we are born of spirit and not flesh.  therefore, we will be ressurrected with a new spirit body and be LIKE HIM.  we know He will be seated at the right hand of God - so we do not ever hope to usurp His place - but He says that He is reserving crowns.  so there is an implication of rulership.  also, some of the parables mention a 'ruler going off to a far country (heaven)...' 

[asyncopated]

Most historians conclude that there is not even convincing evidence for a historical Jesus.

I'll give you the "fact" that jesus lived. Given that the was supposed to have been after three days  ascended to heaven after walking among man, I think it would be had pressed for archiologist to find a body.

Anyway, if they could and and conclusively prove (which is highly unlikely) that that was jesus of nazarath, then it proves that god does not exist, because jesus was not resurrected? Or does it prove that muslim or jewish faith is the one true faith? 

That's not my point.  my point is that I don't believe jesus was resurrected anyway, anymore than i believe that this

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4034787.stm
is an apparition of the virgin mary in the form of a cheeze toast.

or that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Moon
there is a face on the moon, which must have been put there by aliens and therefore we can't be alone in the universe.

I think that I need more than just a historical account (i won't question it's accuracy here) for me to believe.  Call my views tainted.  You seem to have found that spritually, I just haven't.  I'm not always precise.  And more than aware that there are severe limitations to mathematics, and physics and the sciences.  It does not explain all, certainly not the human condition, and definately not god.  But like i say.  A history book, or a book of stories is not good enough for me. That's why I don't claim that god does not exist.  I just wonder what if (he does or he doesn't).

the bible says that no man has seen God - but ezekiel saw and met him in a vision (or dream).  he even saw the throne of God.

Oh, I have dreams of god every so often.  Isn't he the fat chubby guy with the bushy moustache?

[pianistimo]

asyncopated, you are entirely correct and yet you don't believe.  the romans DIDN't find a body - after carefully watching the tomb.  that was why they all ended up believing.  (and btw, changing the calendar after the momentous event)

and, regarding the moon having a face - i've wondered that very thing myself.  how could the moon casually (just casually) have the exact face of person?  eyes, nose, mouth.  we happend to have a full moon the other night and i marvelled to myself how close God is and how much He cares.

i remember putting things above the crib for my children,  so how much more God with the sun, stars, moon - the great light for the day and the lesser for the night.  it is so miraculously planned that noone can convince me that it is anything but divine.  also, noone has countered my question about why the EXACT distances of the earth, sun, and moon to have EXACT eclipse sizes (they fit over one another exactly).  this would have to mean a very precise, mathematical God.  He eyeballed it from the earth probably.

asyncopated, you are most logically arguing my side (excepting the cheese toast), i believe.  and it is recognized by me as stupidity on my part.  and, yet - i think that we can help each other.  me with logic and you with faith.

[pianistimo]

what i think is interesting is that once Jesus was ressurrected - he could manifest Himself.  how?  i don't know.  but it obviously doesn't work the other way around.  we cannot be spirit yet.

in luke 24:38 'why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?  see my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have'  (this was AFTER He died and was ressurrected - so He's showing them that He can do ANYTHING) 

and while they still could not believe it for joy and were marveling, He said to them 'Have you anything here to eat?'  so obviously, it was easy for Him to be both man an God.  how?  i don't have a clue.  power, i guess.  (and He took some of the broiled fish and ATE it). 

now, when you watch magic tricks - you know they are doing a trick.  but, with God - this is real.  real magic - or miracle, i should say.  and, by faith - we will be able to do the same.

[asyncopated]

I believe that it is through the WORD that they are united.  and through the Spirit that they do the work.  they are united in thought. 

as i see it - (and this is different than catholic trinity) - the Spirit proceeds from the Father, to the Son , and then to us - as we were given the gift of the Holy Spirit after Christ ascended to the Father on the day of pentecost.  Now, if we have the same ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT - we are born of spirit and not flesh.  therefore, we will be ressurrected with a new spirit body and be LIKE HIM.  we know He will be seated at the right hand of God - so we do not ever hope to usurp His place - but He says that He is reserving crowns.  so there is an implication of rulership.  also, some of the parables mention a 'ruler going off to a far country (heaven)...' 

#

I don't get the word bit?  Is it an english word?  I jewish word? adonai maybe?  A latin word?  Jesu Christus,  Domine filli unigenite?

So there are 3 gods.  The father, the son and the holy ghost (who moves around?) Or is it more like the star wars thing the Sith lord, his apprentice and the force?  You see i don't really understand spirit.  I don't even understand consciousness or life.  (I think there is a difference.)

a. Is a tree alive?  Is a tree conscious?  Does a tree have spirit?
b. Is a dog alive?  Is a dog coscious?  Does a dog have spirit?
b. am i alive?  am i conscious?  do i have spirit?

Does a dog go to heaven?

Sorry being bugged to go to the pub.  See you later.

[mephisto]

To go to heaven the only thing you have to do is to belive in God and the trinity, your actions have nothing to say. This does of course mean that I am going to hell

[ahinton]

To go to heaven the only thing you have to do is to belive in God and the trinity, your actions have nothing to say. This does of course mean that I am going to hell

No, it doesn't; it could just as easily mean that your remains will one day fertilise the Norwegian soil (and it could sure do with it! - not that I would wish for this to happen in your case a day sooner than it has to, of course...)

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

This does of course mean that I am going to hell

I think people like for example Pianistimo really believe quite some of us are going to burn for eternety in eternal pain in hell. And that is why she is lying to us. So that we will start to believe in god.

If you realy believe that then no lie is too big.

[thalbergmad]

Pesonally I think jesus was a prophet, no more or less than mohammad was.   

I share exactly the same view, because there is no evidence of the crucifixion.

If an event like that truly happened, it would have survived in thousands of ancient documents, but it does not. If i remember my Bible lesson correctly, this supposed amazing event was not even in all of the Gospels.

I personally believe in a God and accept the existence of Jesus, but not the crucifixion.

The Bible is not even unique. Other ancient religious texts are fall of floods, virgin births, rising from the dead and even nice men with beards wandering about healing people.

I have no axe to grind with Christians, only the idiots that use this book of myths to try to disprove scientific fact.

Thal

[gorbee natcase]

There is no light only darkness with twangy bits

[pianistimo]

where to start.  i think i'll start with timothy24b and his comment that a behemoth is a hippopotamus.  i looked it up on wikipedia and it says this:  a plural form of behemeth (animal).  now it is only suggested by various people to be MANy types of large animals.  but, what i find interesting is it's description in job 40:15 'behold, Behemoth, which i made as well as you (humans); He eats grass like an ox, behold, now, his strength is in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly.  He bends his tail like a cedar (hippopotamus's have quite small tails - dinosaurs had large long ones); the sinews of his thighs are knit together, his bones are tubes of bronze; his limbs are like bars of iron.  HE IS THE FIRST OF THE WAYS OF GOD  (one of the first creatures made)

this is a book that is explaining to job how little he knows of what actually happened in creation.  it is a book about humility. 

then, it goes on:  'let his maker bring near his sword (noone else can kill this beast), surely THE MOUNTAINS bring him food, and all the beasts of the field play there, under the  lotus plants he lies down, in the covert of the reeds and the marsh. the lotus plants cover him with shade; the willows of the brook surround him.  if a RIVER RAGES, he is not alarmed; he is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.  can anyone capture him when he is on watch, with barbs can any pierce his nose?'

now i can see the part about marsh and lotus with hippo's - but i cannot see it that he is not an extremely unusal creature because what God is saying is that no man can restrain this particular creature.  perhaps why it was destroyed pre-flood. 

then, God speaks in the next chapter about Leviathan (chpt 41) - this was the largest sea creature.  many myths - etc.  lochness monster - etc. that bring to mind a sort of dinosaur that could exist in the water.  perhaps swam.  but he couldnt' be caught with harpoons or spears and is said to have 'double mail'  teeth - scales.  this sounds like a croc.  but at vs 18 'his sneezes flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning - out of his mouth go burning torches...sparks of fire leap forth - out of his nostrils smoke goes forth, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes.  his breath kindles coals, and a flame goes forth from his mouth.   in his neck lodges strength...etc.

i'm not saying i know exactly what the leviathin is - but i've also heard 'sea monster' as well as crocodile.  especially the verse 'he makes the sea like a jar of ointment...'

this site seems to say the same:  https://atruechurch.info/leviathan.html  it says here that 'great dragon' or 'sea monster' is the correct translation from the hebrew.

[pianistimo]

because these animals didn't exist in job's time - God was teaching him about what came before!  so, we too - don't know what was before us - except what we uncover.  most dinosaurs have been found with grass in their mouths and bellies.  i'm wondering which were truly meat eating.  have they been proven to be the meat eaters of the land - or of the sea.  the leviathan was able to 'bring terror' with his teeth.  job 41:14

regarding prometheus statement again - that the reason i bring religious answers to questions is because it is in my heart to see people burn in hell.  that makes no sense.  for one thing - i've said many times - i do NOT believe there is a hell.  i believe there is a 'lake of fire' and that there is a SECOND DEATH.  over which those that are ressurrected have no fear of.  why would i even be trying to 'preach the gospel' if i wanted people to die.  that is what satan wants.  to deceive people into thinking there is no death.  he said that to eve! also, that is why i spoke of the parable of lazarus and the rich man.  there is a chasm at judgement - of which people cannot cross.  you are judged.  finally.  eternally.  why not decide now - instead of waiting to see if you'll be judged to be in the millenium and choose Christ then?  why not choose Him now?  the first ressurrection is the BEST one!  the one that rulers are chosen from.  the firstfruits of God's harvest.  matthew mentions 'cities.'  that some will be over one city and some over many cities.  this is talking rulership in a kingdom.

i believe there are eternal rewards.  that is the exact opposite of fearing death.  with Christ on your side - you have only good things in store.

to mephisto, i don't think God cares if you believe in the trinity or not.  He'll probably explain His existence by His presence when He arrives.  He expects us to be 'doing' the work of God - and that is feeding the poor and preaching the gospel of the kingdom.  so that's not hard if you love your neighbor as yourself.

[pianistimo]

this is a side note - but i think the only way to hell is to pave your own path.  to death, i mean.  matt. 12:31 'therefore i say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.  and whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven Him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him in this age, or in the age to come. 

what he is saying is that there are some that purposely choose evil over good - doing it knowingly.  KNOWINGLY.  they know that good is right - and they choose evil.  like CAIN.

'either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit...the good man out of his good treasure brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth what is evil.  and I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgement.  for BY YOUR WORDS you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.'

this is a warning to those who have not accepted Jesus Christ - BECAUSE - once you accept him - HE is your sacrifice.  you are no longer a 'sinner' before him and you have a special place at his 'wedding supper.'  (another parable).  some have their lamps ready for this time - and some have to go get oil at the last minute and are locked out.  this means - they agree but do nothing to obtain the 'oil.'  the preparation is YOUR MIND.  give the Holy Spirit a chance by reading the bible once in a while and prepare yourself for good things - not evil.

[asyncopated]

regarding prometheus statement again - that the reason i bring religious answers to questions is because it is in my heart to see people burn in hell.  that makes no sense.  for one thing - i've said many times - i do NOT believe there is a hell.

I agree with promethus.  What I think he means is that you don't accept science or "truth" and rather both you and us believe in lies than not believing (accepting) christ.

You don't believe in hell?

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. -- Daniel 12:2

And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind. -- Isaiah 66:24

For a fire is kindled in My anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains -- Deuteronomy 32:22

Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them. -- Psalms 55:15

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name -- Revelation 14:10-11

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. -- Thessalonians 1:9

Personally, i think it's a charming place.  must be very scenic with all the fire and brim stone and tortured people.  I'll tell you more about it when I get there.

there is a chasm at judgement - of which people cannot cross.  you are judged.  finally.  eternally.  why not decide now - instead of waiting to see if you'll be judged to be in the millenium and choose Christ then?  why not choose Him now?  the first ressurrection is the BEST one!  the one that rulers are chosen from.  the firstfruits of God's harvest.  matthew mentions 'cities.'  that some will be over one city and some over many cities.  this is talking rulership in a kingdom.

Honestly I don't believe this either. I think when you die, you die. that's it.  end of story.  What lives on is what you have contributed to mankind now, when you live, how you touch your children so that they can touch theirs, how you given truth (or lies as it maybe) for the betterment of humankind. 

In the end, I don't care if i'm judge by god.  As burtrand russel said, if I appear at the pearly gates, and he ask why did you not believe in me, i will answer 'not enough evidence, not enough evidence.'  If he did want me to believe, he would give me more evidence.  And it's not like i have not looked, I have.  don't give me the if you look you shall find crap.  I have looked, and am still looking.

Anyway, that's not the point.  My point is I'm much more worried about being judged by history than by god.

[pianistimo]

the FIRE will not be quenched.  the people will be burned up.  nothing physical can withstand that much heat.  unless you are spirit - you do not have eternal life.

rev. 20:6 'blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first ressurrection; over these the SECOND DEATH has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and WILL REIGN WITH HIM for a thousand years...'

God could not say he would 'grant' eternal life - if you already had it in ANY form. sin=death  righteousness =life

the devil wants you to think you will share his demise.  he is spirit.  this is what will happen to him:  rev. 20:10 'and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'  the beast and false prophet are demons!  demons who were following the dictates of satan himself.  they are spirits.  evil spirits.  so, we know that they cannot be literally burned up - but they are separated from God forever.  and death will not be granted as a power they will keep.  they will stew in their own juices.

going back to people - here's a verse in rev. 21:8 'but the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND DEATH.'

[pianistimo]

what i don't understand is WHY do people focus on death so much.  I mean, Christ keeps saying 'come...come '  everywhere in the bible.  He doesn't want any to perish - but that all should have everlasting life.  so why are Christians looked upon as wanting hell for other people (although hell for eternity doesn't exist - as i explained above). 

rev. 21:6-7 '...I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.  I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of water of LIFE without COST.  he who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son.' 

did you know that we don't even overcome anything by ourselves (especially death)!  Christ overcomes it for us by His death.  we are forgiven of our sins and we, in thanks, give our lives to His service.  that doesn't mean automotons.  it just means that we are willing to sacrifice for others like He did for us.  that is using logic.  if you are illogical -even if you don't believe - you won't take a 'lottery ticket' chance that God IS REAL.

i see His mercy and greatness in the fact that when He came to the earth - HE DIED because we judged Him to die.  He is willing to die so that we can LIVE.  that is mercy!

[pianistimo]

www.shroudstory.com   should explain why i believe Jesus Christ died and was ressurrected. 

it was examined in 2004 and now most recently.  in 2004 it was studied by the Institute of Physics in London.  recently Frank Tribbe - 'research has established that the shroud of image cannot have been man-made by any technique of art of science recorded throughout history, nor by any natural  process ever observed or deduced.' 

it says '14th century origin is virtually impossible....' this is because of the way the image was produced and what is replicated on the shroud (the thorns and crucifixion of a roman type).  also,the blood must say something! 

science STILL does not know how the images were imprinted on the shroud.  the speculation that i heard was that when Christ was ressurrected it was x-rayed onto the shroud.  a sort of reverse x-ray.  we go into the doctor's office to get an x-ray of bones- his bones did the OPPOSITE on the shroud.

[asyncopated]

it just means that we are willing to sacrifice for others like He did for us.  that is using logic.  if you are illogical -even if you don't believe - you won't take a 'lottery ticket' chance that God IS REAL.

Just believe me on this one.  you don't even want to go there.  It's a poor argument at best and really just a house of cards.  The argements with christ as our saviour are much better, lets stick to that.

i see His mercy and greatness in the fact that when He came to the earth - HE DIED because we judged Him to die.  He is willing to die so that we can LIVE.  that is mercy!

Here is the funny thing I didn't, some idiot in around 30 A.D. might have, but the memo wasn't sent around and I certianly didn't give my approval.

www.shroudstory.com   should explain why i believe Jesus Christ died and was ressurrected.  notice the carbon-14 dating is within a 3000 year age range - of which i do believe is accurate.

Thank you for the article.  It's the first semi-religous article that i've read that I can understand without bending over backwards with concepts I simply can't get to grips with.  Interesting article.

You've gotten me interested now.  I will dig out the articles from nature on monday + references.  I don't have access to the journal from home.  BTW nature is a excellent journal.

[pianistimo]

we kill him each day that we hate a brother or sister.  whatever we do to someone else - we do to him.  i'm not saying any of us PURPOSELY hate one another.  it's just in our natures before we are taught by God to love others as He loved us.  that's why we NEED a savior.  we would have WORLD PEACE without GOD if we were perfect.

btw, what do you think of the recent studies of the shroud of turin.  by scholars and scientists alike!  especially about the coating of 'residue' or whatever that is consistent with a 'washing' of linens in the first century.  and, the fact that it is a 'negative' - 3d encoded - gives an opposite images by bleeding through.  the starches and sugars are indeed that and not some kind of forgery or paint.

[thalbergmad]

www.shroudstory.com   should explain why i believe Jesus Christ died and was ressurrected. 

it was examined in 2004 and now most recently.  in 2004 it was studied by the Institute of Physics in London.  recently Frank Tribbe - 'research has established that the shroud of image cannot have been man-made by any technique of art of science recorded throughout history, nor by any natural  process ever observed or deduced.' 

it says '14th century origin is virtually impossible....' this is because of the way the image was produced and what is replicated on the shroud (the thorns and crucifixion of a roman type).  also,the blood must say something! 

science STILL does not know how the images were imprinted on the shroud.  the speculation that i heard was that when Christ was ressurrected it was x-rayed onto the shroud.  a sort of reverse x-ray.  we go into the doctor's office to get an x-ray of bones- his bones did the OPPOSITE on the shroud.

Nonsense.

1. The shroud has been reproduced.
2. There are several examples of people dying in bed and leaving an impression on the sheets.
3. A miraculously imprinted burial cloth is not mentioned in the New Testament.
4. The early Christians left no written evidence of its existence.
5. The shroud appeared out of nowhere in about 1350.
6.  The hands are folded over the genitals. Medieval modesty?, certainly not 1st century.
7. The face is too small for the body. Completely out of proportion.
8. The image is 5 centimetres longer at the back than on the front. How many men do you know who are taller at the back than on the front?. PLEASE ANSWER THIS.
9. Was Jesus 6 foot 7?
10. Computer enhancements show that the image was beheaded. Was Jesus beheaded?
11. Several carbon datings show a cloth dated 1260 to 1390.
12. The so called Palestinian pollen found on the cloth was only ever authenticated by one man. The same man that authenticated the Hitler diaries that were a fraud.


It is a fraud, the same as the spear of destiny and the holy nails and probably St James foreskin. Simply a device to keep the money flowing into the church and to keep the believers believing.

Possibly a work of Leornado Da Vinci.

And so endeth the first lesson.

Thal