Pathetique - technical prob

[Snuffel]

In the first movement of Beethoven's Op13 Sonata I am having trouble with the tremalo octaves in the left hand, The basic problem is fatigue, during the repeat I find my arm starts to tense up and I loose the articulation. Does anyone have any tips / exercises I can use to keep my arm relaxed?

[steveolongfingers]

Tiny wieghts (2 pounds)

Put them in the palm of your hand, and curl your wrist

YOu could also get one of those deelys that you squeeze to strenthen those muscles

[IgnazPaderewski]

on the C octave tremolo, for example, place your index finger on the F sharp but dont actually play it, and use it to pivot on. works every time.

[Hmoll]

Tiny wieghts (2 pounds)

Put them in the palm of your hand, and curl your wrist

YOu could also get one of those deelys that you squeeze to strenthen those muscles

I have to respectfully disagree. The problem with the octave tremelos in this piece  is almost always relaxation and rotation. You will not solve this problem by trying to build up muscles with weights or  squeeze balls. In fact, that type of exercising can cause more tension.

There are lots of 5 foot tall 100 pound women who can play this piece well. If they have enough muscle strength, then you probably do.

IgnazPaderewski's idea is a good one. Just make sure keeping in contact with the f sharp doesn't cause an increase in tension. You should be extremely relaxed when playing the tremelos - almost to the point that you can feel the muscles in your upper arm wobble from the movement.

Other ideas: Practice in a syncopated rhythm. Practice with just wrist movement, very slightly adding some finger movement until you find the right mix. Practice with thumb and 5 in constant contact with the keys, and raise the fingers from the keys in increments until you find the right feel.  When you are feeling tense, stop and do something else.

[bernhard]

Hmoll is right. His is excellent advice.

Training squeezing power will make no difference. It is not about strength (it never is).

[Dave_2004_G]

One tip I'd give is to make sure there's no tension in your shoulders, because it will move down through your whole forearm - if you're feeling tired, just stop and see if your shoulders are tensed up and just let them flop down - and when you play consciously think about your shoulders staying low and being relaxed

Dave

[steveolongfingers]

Hmoll is right. His is excellent advice.

Training squeezing power will make no difference. It is not about strength (it never is).

Maybe I just have relied to much on muscle than technique?
Oh well

[Snuffel]

Thanks for the advice, I'm sure that relaxation is they key, I think that I have sort of got into the (bad) habit of trying to force my way through. It takes much longer when you have to first "unlearn" something before re-learning it correctly.
(ps I think I'll pass on the body building approach)

[clarinetwife]

I am 4'10", and I love the thunder of this piece!  The hand and the forearm need to move a unit, relaxation and rotation as Hmoll pointed out.  The arm will tire if it is held more rigid and does not move with the wrist and the hand.

[Beet9]

The main technical problem with this piece is the left hand tremolo.  I suggest that you concentrate on loosening up your hand and making sure it doesn't tense up.  When ever your hand does get tense, I suggest that you stop, relax, and start again slowly.  You could damage your hand if you are playing when your hand is tense.

[krenske]

well....
yes i can say i identify with this problem in the first theme of the first movt. etc.
well... i had this problem years ago, and found a light gym workout helped greatly (isolating muscles) - waking up some muscles that haven't seen action EVER!
Also varied physical activities can help.
i have no problem with any of this now - im sure its a matter of mental approach and co-ordination, not of muscles. Maybe a slight element of good reflexes though.
I could also reccommend a "cut" in this sonata which might aleviate the problem...
probably not for the purists: but the introduction of the first movement could segue nicely into the coda of the Rondo, leaving much more time in the programme for items like Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky. Im sure the audience will thank you for it.  

[scriabinsmyman]

fatigue? are you tightening your hand or arm or wrist when you play them? try standing with your arms loosely at your sides, then wriggle your hands until you feel all the tension go away.