Finger Virtuosi vs. Brain Virtuosi

[opus10no2]

It has become evident there is 2 kinds of virtuosi out there, the elite are mostly gifted with girth in both areas, but there are exceptions.

It is actually quite obvious to make this division, because these 2 skills are so disparate that it would be like comparing a chess master to a world class sprinter, there is no correlation between the two besides supreme skill.

Examples of 'Brain' virtuosi-

Pace
Madge
Ashkenazy


Finger-

Yundi Li
Berman
Michelangeli
Volodos


Supremo Mixtures -

Hamelin
Libetta
Berezovsky

[chromatickler]

the most legendary young mixvirts include Wunder and Shen Wen-yu

[daniel patschan]

Wow ! This one is a really intelligent thread ! One of the most refined and original ones - i would never have been able to figure out such a difficult and relevant question. At least not since i have grown older than 9 years. Thank you Stevie.

[invictious]

Actually, I'd say Li Yundi has more brain virtuosity than finger virtuosity.

I love the way he plays La Campanella, compared to Kissin's. Although it's not that fast, the way, there is just this something, that still keeps me interested even though I heard this piece a million times.

[gruffalo]

Yes, lundi Li is a fine example of  brain virtuosity. 10.2, do you prefer finger or brain virtuosity then?

[pianowolfi]

It has become evident there is 2 kinds of virtuosi out there, the elite are mostly gifted with girth in both areas, but there are exceptions.

It is actually quite obvious to make this division, because these 2 skills are so disparate that it would be like comparing a chess master to a world class sprinter, there is no correlation between the two besides supreme skill.

Examples of 'Brain' virtuosi-

Pace
Madge
Ashkenazy


Finger-

Yundi Li
Berman
Michelangeli
Volodos


Supremo Mixtures -

Hamelin
Libetta
Berezovsky

May I add Scherbakov to the supreme mixtures?

[counterpoint]

 Neither Finger Virtuoso nor Brain Virtuoso   

There is something other:

music is the language of the soul.

Soul has it's own virtues, empathy for example. But you can't say something like 'he is a soul virtuoso', that would be nonsense.

Often it's the voice of a little child which speaks in the music. A child, which is weak, vulnerable, sometimes sure in knowing what it wants - sometimes not, sometimes happy, sometimes full of sorrows and fear, sometimes angry, sometimes rebellious.

You can play music without noticing this little voice, just playing the notes and be happy about your quick fingers, your force, your mental superiority over other people, who can't play 'as good as you'. That's fully okay, but that's not, what does interest me in music. I want to be open for what the music is telling me, and when playing myself, I want to open this dimension of the music to others. Not virtuosity. I'm not a sportsman and not a  circus acrobat.

[daniel patschan]

May I add Scherbakov to the supreme mixtures?

Oh yes, absolutely, you may !!! That is my opinion as well (to contribute at least something serious to this thread). Scherbakov has an immense intelectual ability, paired with an immense musical sensibility, combined with a superb technique ! BTW: When you attended his masterclass, did he play a lot for you or did he more explain ? Did he talk about future releases ?

[opus10no2]

Yes, lundi Li is a fine example of  brain virtuosity. 10.2, do you prefer finger or brain virtuosity then?

Finger virtuosity impresses me more in particular.
Finger virtuosity, obviously, is about dexterity and technique.

I didn't clarify what I meant by 'Brain Virtuosity'.

Largely by this I mean the size of repertoire of the pianist, which gives evidence to the sight-reading and memorizing cababilities of the pianist.

Yundi Li has a pretty small repertoire for a concert pianist, and his main asset is his technical abilities.

[maxd]

the whole concept of virtuoso is vulgar journalism at best..

paganini, liszt and chopin were virtuosi who also composed and had profound impact on the lives of observers not because of fingers OR brain but TALENT.

musical talent..

it appears you have very fast fingers and are very proud of them..

unfortunately this only makes you an able-masturbator.

certainly not an artist.

[m]

I didn't clarify what I meant by 'Brain Virtuosity'.

Largely by this I mean the size of repertoire of the pianist

If you really want to make those classifications wouldn't it be easier just to sort the virtuosi under the question by their repertoire, i.e. virtuoso A and virtuoso B have a large repertoire, and virtuosi C, D, and E have small one?
Or are you trying to say that those virtuosi with a smaller repertoire are brainless finger movers? In this case, considering your choise of names in that group I'd strongly disagree.

Besides, what to do with those who has relatively large, or relatively small repertoires, i.e. those who in your classification did not deserve to be called "brain ones" yet, but are already not in the "finger movers" category?

Best, M

[daniel patschan]

One more thing: Ashkenazy has/had a super technique - there is not much left to complain about. He is not on a level with Madge.

[pianowolfi]

Oh yes, absolutely, you may !!! That is my opinion as well (to contribute at least something serious to this thread). Scherbakov has an immense intelectual ability, paired with an immense musical sensibility, combined with a superb technique ! BTW: When you attended his masterclass, did he play a lot for you or did he more explain ? Did he talk about future releases ?

Oh yeah he played a lot. Not specifically in my lessons but also in the lessons I were listening to. It was always very convincing. Sometimes even more than in his concerts. I think he plays a LOT of concerts. And his repertoire is huge. Future releases he didn't talk about during the academy but I know from an interview that he will record the Godowsky-Chopin studies as last of his Godowsky project. He said that these etudes are the most difficult thing at all.

[arensky]

Can't answer this. Without the brain the fingers don't operate. Without fingers, well... 

[counterpoint]

Can't answer this. Without the brain the fingers don't operate. Without fingers, well... 

That's the best possible answer to the question of this thread 

[opus10no2]

the whole concept of virtuoso is vulgar journalism at best..

paganini, liszt and chopin were virtuosi who also composed and had profound impact on the lives of observers not because of fingers OR brain but TALENT.

musical talent..

it appears you have very fast fingers and are very proud of them..

unfortunately this only makes you an able-masturbator.

certainly not an artist.

Silly boy.



A brain virtuoso is one who has a remarkable capacity to retain and 'compute' music with their brain.

I choose those examples because they are relatively weaker in one area to the other, but are very strong in that one area.


Pianists face this dilemma all the time - choosing which to work on - repertoire or technique.

True, both can be worked on together, but greater efficiency comes from working on them seperately.

[maxy]

hahahhahaha I will play the game.

hands are stupid.  you have to train them if you want them to do what you want.  If you are a brain virtuoso with untrained hands, well, you are not a virtuoso at all. 

[chromatickler]

da ticklah will clarify this for you noobies once and for all:

scientific measurements for brain-virt: sitereading and memorization. given a new piece, the one who takes the shortest amount of time to learn it (with or without score) up to a moderate, pre-specified performance tempo is the winner.

scientific measurements for finger-virt: given a very short piece (usually in etude form) and a pre-specified time period of significant length to practise it in, at the end of this time period the one who can play it the fastest and the most accurately is the winner.

[elevateme]

Silly boy.

Pianists face this dilemma all the time - choosing which to work on - repertoire or technique.

ive never ever faced this dilemma. nor has anyone i know. obviously the answer is repertoire. otherwise you wouldnt get anywhere!

[opus10no2]

That kind of attitude shows in your playing.

[elevateme]

in which playing. in my ondine in the audition room?

funny, it also shows in your fabulous rendition of star wars.



                                                 

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Just to clear things up, what exactly is a "finger virtuoso" and a "brain virtuoso"? Context wise a finger virtuoso would denote someone with virtuosic fingers and that part is understandable. However when it comes to brain virtuoso, I would assume that that would denote someone who excels in actions governed by the brain, whether it is some form of thinking ability, or artistic ability or who knows what ability. It is therefore confusing to me just what exactly is the difference between a finger virtuoso and a brain virtuoso, as clearly it is the brain behind the fingers, and any form of finger virtuosity is then due to the brain. This thread is very confusing and possibly very flawed. I think what you were meaning to say was "technically immaculate vs. musically immaculate," is it not?

[opus10no2]

Greetings.

Just to clear things up, what exactly is a "finger virtuoso" and a "brain virtuoso"? Context wise a finger virtuoso would denote someone with virtuosic fingers and that part is understandable. However when it comes to brain virtuoso, I would assume that that would denote someone who excels in actions governed by the brain, whether it is some form of thinking ability, or artistic ability or who knows what ability. It is therefore confusing to me just what exactly is the difference between a finger virtuoso and a brain virtuoso, as clearly it is the brain behind the fingers, and any form of finger virtuosity is then due to the brain. This thread is very confusing and possibly very flawed. I think what you were meaning to say was "technically immaculate vs. musically immaculate," is it not?

Finger virtuosity is about the raw dexterity, which comes from the muscles, tendons, nerves in the actual fingers and arm, and away from that, the technical control which is applied from it IS govorned by the brain, but it is really part of the same area.

Brain virtuosity, by the definition I intend here, is the RAW OBJECTIVE NOTE COMPUTING ability of the brain.

Nothing to do with 'expression', we are talking about something objectively fathomable and quantifiable.

Dier von Ticklah explained the criteria above.

[debussy symbolism]

Finger virtuosity is about the raw dexterity, which comes from the muscles, tendons, nerves in the actual fingers and arm, and away from that, the technical control which is applied from it IS govorned by the brain, but it is really part of the same area.

Brain virtuosity, by the definition I intend here, is the RAW OBJECTIVE NOTE COMPUTING ability of the brain.

Nothing to do with 'expression', we are talking about something objectively fathomable and quantifiable.

So as I understand it by finger virtuosity you mean the sheer perfection of execution, and by brain virtuosity you mean the capability of the brain to aquire information. Why not just word it as this: Excellent performance that requires along time to aquire vs. not as excellent performance, but an ease with aquiring the piece and thus having many of such pieces learned, but not necessarily point perfect.

I think it is a very interesting point because there are some pianists that prefer a smaller repertoire, but immaculate precision in performance. Arturo Michelangeli comes to mind. There are of course pianists that prefer to aquire more pieces.

[opus10no2]

Call it what you like, I mean the raw ability of the fingers. But yes, it's about the technical quality of performance vs quantity of repertoire, basically.

[debussy symbolism]

Okay that makes alot more sense. Your initial post was very confusing and equivocal in meaning. Why didn't you just word it differently so to avoid the confusion?

[opus10no2]

I discussed this subject prior to this thread with chromatickler, and I forgot to consider that it may be hard to understand to those who have no knowledge of our theories.

[debussy symbolism]

Really? Well I should have known. Gee how silly of me to not figure out that only geniuses of your level are capable of posting such........................redundant and overly simplistic and highly personal threads.

[ahinton]

I am beginning to wonder if "finger virtuosi" are those who habitually type stuff in threads like this one...

Best,

Alistair

[opus10no2]

Do I smell jealousy, Alistair? 

[ahinton]

Do I smell jealousy, Alistair? 

I have no idea what you smell, but I can assure you that any sense of jealousy on my part here would be gravely misplaced, since I am not actually a pianist...

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

Do I smell jealousy, Alistair? 

Jealousy of what, you being able to post endless comments on how speed is the primal determiner of a pianist's qualities, or jealousy of the sheer number of posts. The latter in my opinion is really contradictory as Alistair Hinton so far has much more posts here than you do. Of course if one was to count the number of posts on your other previously banned accounts and the posts on "da SDC" then something could be considered, but of course, given that the covenant could not dare to be revealed, we will just assume that you only have a relatively small number of posts.

[opus10no2]

I may have a small one, but I use it oh so beautifully. 

I was just biting back jestfully at Alistair's remark, which I do not wholly comprehend, was it an insult?

[debussy symbolism]

Do you not understand my remark of that of Alistair? By your post I assume it is the latter, which I find surprising because Alistair's remark seems clear. Perhaps Alistair assumed that "finger" virtuosi are the ones that don't tend to use their brains and so often just aimlessly write stuff in these kinds of threads. I don't know about you but that was a bit insulting in the kind sense of course. Perhaps time will be better spent if these discussions weren't to always occur due to such polls such as this, especially those that are poorly or ambiguously written.

[gruffalo]

Jealousy of what, you being able to post endless comments on how speed is the primal determiner of a pianist's qualities, or jealousy of the sheer number of posts. The latter in my opinion is really contradictory as Alistair Hinton so far has much more posts here than you do. Of course if one was to count the number of posts on your other previously banned accounts and the posts on "da SDC" then something could be considered, but of course, given that the covenant could not dare to be revealed, we will just assume that you only have a relatively small number of posts.

quality over quantity. many, or should i say most, of your posts are just full of useless nonsense.

[ahinton]

I may have a small one, but I use it oh so beautifully. 

I was just biting back jestfully at Alistair's remark, which I do not wholly comprehend, was it an insult?

Dear me! - just for the record and perhaps to try to assuage anyone's apparent or alleged consternation about this truly minor issue, what I wrote was meant merely to be a joke - no more, no less; I really do hope that this clears up anyone's misapprehensions, misunderstandings or whatever...

Best,

Alistair