Pianoforum's Harmony Class

[danny elfboy]

Okay ...
This is our Virtual Harmony Classrom

This is an experimental place to see how this project[/ur] is going to work. The idea is to study togethe a topic in our harmony textbooks then provide a small summery of the topic studies in the classrom and attach to it your doubts, questions, suggestions, ideas, compositions and such

So who is going to plan the first lesson? 
 

[danny elfboy]

Hey ! ...
No volunteers ? 

[m1469]

Actually, I have been thinking about a plan all day long.  I just happen to have *A LOT* of other stuff going on and no matter what book we are using and so on, this project (like most projects for me here) is not a huge priority in my life at the moment (though valuable for sure).

So, that's where I am at with it  .   If you are truly serious about this though, I guarantee it will spark something right in me and things will come together  .


m1469

[danny elfboy]

Actually, I have been thinking about a plan all day long.  I just happen to have *A LOT* of other stuff going on and no matter what book we are using and so on, this project (like most projects for me here) is not a huge priority in my life at the moment (though valuable for sure).

So, that's where I am at with it  .   If you are truly serious about this though, I guarantee it will spark something right in me and things will come together  .


m1469

I'm truly serious about this
Also I think it could become a priority as I've seen conservatories in Europe where you can't get a piano diploma if you don't get an harmony diploma as comprehensive as the one of someone studying composition. They must have a point and probably knowing harmony can enhance teaching, piano playing, performance a lot
I'm so serious I would start it myself but I don't think my english allows me to

P.S. We could meet in chat right now and try to plan something ...

[m1469]

I'm truly serious about this
Also I think it could become a priority as I've seen conservatories in Europe where you can't get a piano diploma if you don't get an harmony diploma as comprehensive as the one of someone studying composition. They must have a point and probably knowing harmony can enhance teaching, piano playing, performance a lot

Well, I did take three years of it in Uni, granted, I did somewhat skate by in my second year, since all I cared about back then was practicing  .  First and third year theory were great though .  These classes included orchestration and counterpoint specific courses, as well (this is all not saying much, though).  I also took private composition courses as well as composition group classes.   

Anyway, I have, of course, thought about everything you mention as reason for making it a priority so that reasoning is not going to make me anymore motivated than I am already.  What you are talking about is the whole reason I want to brush up in the first place... it's just that I am a very busy woman .  That's how it goes.

So, none of this is going to be new to me, it's just I had other priorities back then, too.  I was just trying to gulp in as much of a broader experience as I possibly could without getting too bogged down into details.  Maybe now it's time for more details.

[danny elfboy]

Well, I did take three years of it in Uni, granted, I did somewhat skate by in my second year, since all I cared about back then was practicing  .  These classes included orchestration and counterpoint specific courses, as well (this is all not saying much, though).  First and third year were great though .  Anyway, I have, of course, thought about everything you mention as reason for making it a priority so that reasoning is not going to make me anymore motivated than I am already.  What you are talking about is the whole reason I want to brush up in the first place... it's just that I am a very busy woman .  That's how it goes.

It could be like exercising ... you know
I mean that even if you're busiest of the person you know it will improve your health or keep your heath for longer and so find anyway 15 minutes three times a week to do it
I think we can easily plan something concrete just by devoting 4-5 minutes a day of our time to it. If we make it a priority we could even decrease the time we spend reading and posting at pianostreet and focusing on the harmony project instead

[m1469]

so find anyway 15 minutes three times a week to do it
I think we can easily plan something concrete just by devoting 4-5 minutes a day of our time to it.

hee hee... do you have any idea how many people are saying the same sorts of things to me about what they feel should be a priority in my life right now ?    Anyway, you are right, of course.  But, you see, I am only very serious about it and there is truly no inbetween with me for some things.  So, I don't commit to a group project unless there are others who take it just as seriously as I do.

If we make it a priority we could even decrease the time we spend reading and posting at pianostreet and focusing on the harmony project instead

Well, I generally let the usefulness of my time on PS determine how much of it I spend here (this is true with anything in my life, actually).  Of course, doing these sorts of things and giving and gleaning information that is pertinent to my pianistic experience is my primary purpose here.  So, if I cut out the time I spend here, that would only be cutting out projects like this.  You see ? 

[ridr27]

Looks like two of you interested and capable of leading this.
I am guessing there are others like me who have not had the classes but are very interested and will follow best they can.

Also, maybe more of the professionals will join in once this discusson is started.

[mad_max2024]

Looks like two of you interested and capable of leading this.
I am guessing there are others like me who have not had the classes but are very interested and will follow best they can.

I'm one of them
I think I'm more qualified to be a student rather than a teacher
looking forward to it

[danny elfboy]

Okay
If you're interested in the project either as a student or a teacher just add a post to this thread saying you're interested. I'm william to make this worl as long as there are enough interested people and it's worth it.
If m1469 is too busy and there are no other volunteers I can provide the summaries provided someone volunteer to meet in chat with me and readproof what I've written in bad english ...

[pianowolfi]

I am interested. I just need an English Harmony book first . If you have any recommendations?

[danny elfboy]

I am interested. I just need an English Harmony book first . If you have any recommendations?

I suggest these three:

Understanding Harmony by Robert Jacobs
Amazon-co-uk - Understanding Harmony

Harmony In Practice by Anna Butterworth
Amazon.co.uk - Harmony in Practice

Harmonic Experience by William Mathieu
Amazon.co.uk - Harmonic Experience

[m1469]

*A rant from the extremely crabby and annoyed.*  ... which I have since deleted.

[danny elfboy]

*A rant from the extremely crabby and annoyed.*  ... which I have since deleted.

What 

[ridr27]

*A rant from the extremely crabby and annoyed.*  ... which I have since deleted.

what???

That was my reaction too....LLOL...........What???

[m1469]

That was my reaction too....LLOL...........What???

I was supremely grumpy and feeling annoyed at some things regarding this (and related) thread, and so I ranted about it and then actually posted it... LOL.  Then I decided that I didn't need to keep it up there, so I erased it all  .  See ?  Simple, though maybe not sweet .


Cheers,
m1469

[danny elfboy]

I was supremely grumpy and feeling annoyed at some things regarding this (and related) thread, and so I ranted about it and then actually posted it... LOL.  Then I decided that I didn't need to keep it up there, so I erased it all  .  See ?  Simple, though maybe not sweet .

You should have kept it instead, I'm interested to know your point of view and opinions even negative ones ...
What the problems were? I think it's important to know

[pianowolfi]

I suggest these three:

Understanding Harmony by Robert Jacobs
Amazon-co-uk - Understanding Harmony

Harmony In Practice by Anna Butterworth
Amazon.co.uk - Harmony in Practice

Harmonic Experience by William Mathieu
Amazon.co.uk - Harmonic Experience

Thanks, i have just ordered the Anna Butterworth book.

[loops]

I'm definitely interested in learning harmony. I have the Butterworth book
and another called Dynamic Harmony by someone called Pratt.

I've got as far as "understanding" I ii iii IV V vi vii(little circle) and I, and a diagram
as to what "leads" to what based on fifths.

I find it all very puzzling. I can read the words and see what the definitions
are intellectually........but why are these concepts important?

I tried to analyse a Bach prelude. One chord was  (sharp) ivb (something like that)
and I was thrilled to find it in the book,
and the other beautiful chord my teacher told me was a german 6th.

OK but surely ANY chord could have a fancy name? Why are THESE chords so great?

It seems to me that Bach wrote his music before all this theory was developed.
He found certain paths through the chords up and down the keyboard that sounded
great. I'm struggling to get beyond "it sounds nice"

looking forward to learning something

loops

[ridr27]

Thanks, i have just ordered the Anna Butterworth book.

Pianowolfi.
That is the one I ordered.  I ordered from a publisher in England so don't know how long it will be getting here.

m1469.
Please don't be offended that it is not the book first recommended.  I decided if it was easier for a more-so beginner like me, I better choose that one.

Our problem seems to be more followers than leaders.  I rspect that you don't have time to just teach the rest of us.  I wish you did.   You are very educated  on this subject.

Maybe if we ever get our books and started other people will join.  I suspect it.

ridr27

[m1469]

m1469.
Please don't be offended that it is not the book first recommended.  I decided if it was easier for a more-so beginner like me, I better choose that one.


ridr27

I don't have a problem with this book at all.  Why would I ?  Tonal Harmony was never a "recommended" book, it's just something that it seemed a few of us had and we decided to go through it together.  What I thought was silly was for somebody to come in and try to change the project (just start your own, as you have done).  But, I have since realized that those who already have the Tonal Harmony book can still go through it together. 

If I had to start completely fresh and purchase my first theory book, I would have fewer qualms about trying a different book out if I read good reviews on it (and I don't blame somebody for not wanting to purchase a book that has unconvincing reviews).  I will probably even purchase other theory books at some point, just not right now.

In the meantime, what is difficult is trying to plan a lesson when we don't all have the same book, and we all have differeing levels of current knowledge (and, I feel as though danny elfboy is just waiting for me to say that, so there, I have said it).  For me, and in the *RIGHT* circumstances,  that's actually kind of a fun challenge as well.  I have actually already put a lot of time and energy into it (even with some impatience expressed by a member).  There would be a need for pre-requisite knowledge for a lesson on "voice-leading" and I was ready to lay all of that out. 

But, to be honest, I am concerned that I will do something like that, and spend all of this time and effort putting something like this together, and then somebody who wants it to fail will work hard to get everything off topic and spend loads of time going in pointless circles.  I have seen it happen in both the "tonal harmony" and "moveable do vs fixed do" threads (by the same member), therefore, I am not all that excited about dumping my soul out here with this.  That's a problem (for me) with doing things like this on an internet forum and not in a live classroom.

Anyway, I probably will still put something together, but I may just post it in the Tonal Harmony thread.


Cheers, and good luck !!

m1469

[loops]

 well m1469 I for one am very good at sticking on topic and ignoring tangential remarks.
And will be grateful for any kind of pointers. My degree is in maths. It is not hard for me to imagine
your reluctance to write down stuff that for you is elementary after you did 3 years of uni-level
harmony only to get a whole pile of immature comment in return.

I just found a book on Amazon called "Applied harmony for Adult beginners"
Is this good for someone who's already read 100 pages of Butterworth?

I can't help feeling musical harmony theory is like biology, ie descriptive,
rather than like physics ie fundamental principles.
My teacher gives me wonderful pieces to play, that seem to be beautiful by magic,
 while the theory seems to be the harmonic cliches that the good pieces transcend.
Is that fair or just my ignorance of advanced theory?

loops

[ridr27]

But, to be honest, I am concerned that I will do something like that, and spend all of this time and effort putting something like this together, and then somebody who wants it to fail will work hard to get everything off topic and spend loads of time going in pointless circles.

m1469:  I understand totally.  The only way we could do this would be ignore that person(s).  But in a forum like this it would not work.  People will respond and off the thread will go.

I have experienced the sort of *work against you* things you are talking about.  I belonged to this forum a few years back and quit for awhile.  Yes, I know, I know, we should not let a couple bad apples ruin it, but they do seem to win.  I sense they enjoy doing so.

ridr27

[m1469]

It is not hard for me to imagine your reluctance to write down stuff that for you is elementary

Well, I appreciate your compassion, but I will say that I have rarely (if ever) come to the lasting conclusion that anything about life is elementary for me -- in the sense of it being "easy."  Maybe fundamentally necessary, but elementary, not so much.

One of the whole points in me wanting to do this is to also help me understand it better, too.

[m1469]

m1469:  I understand totally.  The only way we could do this would be ignore that person(s).  But in a forum like this it would not work.  People will respond and off the thread will go.

I have experienced the sort of *work against you* things you are talking about.  I belonged to this forum a few years back and quit for awhile.  Yes, I know, I know, we should not let a couple bad apples ruin it, but they do seem to win.  I sense they enjoy doing so.

ridr27

Thanks for your thoughts.  I will say that if I respond much more to this, I will feel like I am doing the same thing to this thread as what I don't like done to others .  So, for now, I will have to leave it all be .

[danny elfboy]

But, to be honest, I am concerned that I will do something like that, and spend all of this time and effort putting something like this together, and then somebody who wants it to fail will work hard to get everything off topic and spend loads of time going in pointless circles.  I have seen it happen in both the "tonal harmony" and "moveable do vs fixed do" threads (by the same member), therefore, I am not all that excited about dumping my soul out here with this.  That's a problem (for me) with doing things like this on an internet forum and not in a live classroom.

m1469. Is that hard for you understand that it was a problem of language and nothing else? You'll have to accept that it will happen many times in the internet, if nothing because I'm not the only one here who is not from english speaking country and has a different musical system. I really don't understand you comment about "somebody who wants it to fail" as if misunderstanding was a conscious effort to ruin a post. That's very sympathetic of you indeed. Don't take this as an offence but for being a young teacher you really sound as an old bitter person who can't take it easy because of persecution mania that probably come from being taught that what's really important in life is your honour, your reputation, your rightfulness and not a more "equal" and "relaxed" interexchange with people. You can't even pacifically acknowledge misunderstanding ... which is something most people wouldn't have a problem with.

And yes ... I feel offended by your ignorant remarks

Suit yourself, do whatever you want; I was just trying to help and give a boost to a project that was procrastinating. And please don't speak as if I was trying to ruin what you have done, since you had done anything. Before I joined the thread there was no active project and no one has a serious plans about it, just unconcretized ideas ...

By the way. I'm entitled to my opinions about harmony books. Keep in mind that I have lot of harmony books and since the ones I use at the conservatory are already expensive and big enough I too don't feel like buying new ones (if nothing because of the cost + shipping) So the only reason why I suggested those books is because I thought of others and also your words about wanting harmony that is functional to your music and not just information for the sake of it. Believe me ... 8 months since the beginners in the project will have been on the Kosta and none of them will be able to apply a single information to music composition. There's a reason why it is considered a Bible by those teachers using it as a reference book but relying on their own words to explain the concepts to the classroom and the worst book on Harmony by students or ex-students

[danny elfboy]

-

[danny elfboy]

Yes, I know, I know, we should not let a couple bad apples ruin it, but they do seem to win.  I sense they enjoy doing so.

You're really paranoid. Have you become so paranoid that you can't even recognize trolls from genuine misunderstanding and different opinions. Or are you just judging my low numbers of posts? I changed my nick, I've been on this forum for longer than you, I've been one of the first to support Bernhard and exchange ample technical and anatomical information with the forum and I'm also one of those who have always due his best to protect this forum from trolls and off-topic nonsese, always do my best to answer to all "student corner" post ignoring the "anything but piano" rants. I've devoted my time to this forum to the levels of writing messages so long they required four posts one after the other and this in spite of having learned english by myself and being as busy, in not more because of serious health problems, than others.

Read again the threads and especially my cordial replies (including apologies) to m1469 and you'll see she really needs to take a vacation and relax

[m1469]

m1469. Is that hard for you understand that it was a problem of language and nothing else?

In the case of those two threads that I mentioned, yes, to a certain extent it is.  As breifly as possible, I feel this way because I have observed numerous intelligent and clear posts of yours in other threads and at other times.   I know that you are capable of relaying your meaning and of understanding others.  Granted, we all have misunderstandings sometimes, even between people whom speak the same native language.  I won't go into it any further since that would be doing exactly the same kind of circular motions I want to avoid.

The rest of your post I won't bother trying to address.  Except to admit that the Tonal Harmony thread itself was indeed not going very far as it was, and that I feel a little bit more inspired about it now.  However, I felt more inspired about it before you got there, too, but even more inspired when you mentioned comparing books with each other.

Anyway, one thing that I will say to find comical is the fact that you had previously expressed your wishes for me to have kept my "rant" up above, that I had actually decided to erase.   You said that you were interested in what my thoughts and opinions were, even the negative ones.  Should I link you to your own words, as I have had to do in other threads ?  Oh yeah, that never got us anywhere as far as further understanding each other, so no, I don't think I will bother this time.   So, now when I express my thoughts calmly and straight-forwardly, you are offended... hee hee.  Well, I never meant to offend you.  And, of course you are entitled to your opinions on whatever you want, including harmony books.  As am I.  I don't think I ever tried to "take that away" from you, but encouraged you to have your own project going if the other one is not what you wanted, and you clearly wanted something else.

Anyhoo, I am going to try to not comment any further on this all since it is all pretty silly to me.  If I have simply misunderstood you, I would only beg that you see my innocence since I am not a native internet forumer, learning only on my own as I go, and I am sure that this would be the only cause for any trouble between our minds .


Cheers,
m1469

[ridr27]

Yes, I know, I know, we should not let a couple bad apples ruin it, but they do seem to win.  I sense they enjoy doing so.

You're really paranoid. Have you become so paranoid that you can't even recognize trolls from genuine misunderstanding and different opinions. Or are you just judging my low numbers of posts?

Oh gosh what a mess.  No was not talking about you or anyone in particular.  Just meaning that this kind of stuff does happen very often.  and I did not even notice how many posts you have. 

[danny elfboy]

In the case of those two threads that I mentioned, yes, to a certain extent it is.  As breifly as possible, I feel this way because I have observed numerous intelligent and clear posts of yours in other threads and at other times.   I know that you are capable of relaying your meaning and of understanding others.  Granted, we all have misunderstandings sometimes, even between people whom speak the same native language.  I won't go into it any further since that would be doing exactly the same kind of circular motions I want to avoid.

I think in that instance it was different
Let's say I read in a book that dog is actually that animal that makes honey
So you say something about "walking the dog" and clearly I become very confused <how can you walk an animal so little, that could sting you, that fly ... I don't understand>
Clearly you would be more confused than me <my dog doesn't fly! ... are you kidding with me?>

See what I mean?
It happened the same thing

The rest of your post I won't bother trying to address.

Yeah ... ignore it; it was just emotional rant ... because I felt hurt

Except to admit that the Tonal Harmony thread itself was indeed not going very far as it was, and that I feel a little bit more inspired about it now.  However, I felt more inspired about it before you got there, too, but even more inspired when you mentioned comparing books with each other.

I never said "throw you books away"
But <since as pianists we're more interested in "applied harmony" rather than "theorical   papyrus ... I suggest these books>
I was a friendly suggestion ... I was still willing to compare books ... especially from different countries

Anyway, one thing that I will say to find comical is the fact that you had previously expressed your wishes for me to have kept my "rant" up above, that I had actually decided to erase.   You said that you were interested in what my thoughts and opinions were, even the negative ones.  Should I link you to your own words, as I have had to do in other threads ?  Oh yeah, that never got us anywhere as far as further understanding each other, so no, I don't think I will bother this time.   So, now when I express my thoughts calmly and straight-forwardly, you are offended... hee hee.

You're right ... but I admit I'm a bit moody
Forgive me ... I didn't mean to be that harsh expecially since I asked you to be honest

Well, I never meant to offend you.  And, of course you are entitled to your opinions on whatever you want, including harmony books.  As am I.  I don't think I ever tried to "take that away" from you, but encouraged you to have your own project going if the other one is not what you wanted, and you clearly wanted something else.

No I didn't.
In fact ... the only reason why I mentioned those books it's because of what YOU said (i.e. practical harmony vs. just theorical harmony)
I wouldn't have even named those if it wasn't for your intelligent remark
Because you're right, we need to know harmony in a way that we can easily apply it to our music and enhance it. That's the cons of books like Kosta and also the reason why after three years of harmony class at universy you still feel the need to learn it better by yourself (this is what EVERY composer and concertist I've known always said ... in fact this is what EVERY economy student who got a work I've ever know said ... the useless theorical rants vs. applied economy and practical information that lead you to feel need to learn everything from scratch)

If I have simply misunderstood you, I would only beg that you see my innocence since I am not a native internet forumer, learning only on my own as I go, and I am sure that this would be the only cause for any trouble between our minds

No problem
First I felt hurt ... then I realized that nowadays forums are so full of idiots who try to ruin everything and bother people ... that my bona-fide misunderstanding is not necessarily so straight-forward. Think about the silly dog and bee example. I would've probably reacted the way you have

Sorry for my bad words.
I know you're not bitter and have a very open relationship with your students and other fellow pianists. I remember when Bernhard called you Lady m1469 and you said a beautiful thing about everyone being both a teacher and a student, no matter the age or school degree.
I have nothing but praise for you and your work and would never consciously sabotage your efforts ... besides your approach is the closest to my own ... technically, phylosophically, musically; we're very similar 

[danny elfboy]

Oh gosh what a mess.  No was not talking about you or anyone in particular.  Just meaning that this kind of stuff does happen very often.  and I did not even notice how many posts you have. 

Sorry ... it has been indeed a whole confusing mess.
Let's start from scratch and forget about these misunderstandings

[danny elfboy]

Pianowolfi.
That is the one I ordered.  I ordered from a publisher in England so don't know how long it will be getting here.

Let us know when you get it
Skim throught it a bit
My idea is to begin by posting the "table of content" of all the books we have so we can see the difference in progression and also the difference in content (whether a book lacks something or has something more compared to another)

Then we can choose from an "unified" table of content, taking the best out of everything in which order to proceed.

[pianowolfi]

Well reading some of the posts above makes me feel slightly uncomfortable... And things like this which I have read in the other thread about moveable do surely won't make the atmosphere better:

You americans are making it confusing while it is actually rather simple

  I really don't appreciate something like that.

Okay btt. My main goal is first to brush up my harmony knowledge and secondly to get more familiar with the English theory terms. I have had harmony and counterpoint and analysis classes during my studies but that was a while ago. And though I teach in a German speaking country I teach a lot of Americans and other English speaking people in English. So i am interested in "elementary" subjects as well as in "advanced" ones, exactly in the sense of this:

but I will say that I have rarely (if ever) come to the lasting conclusion that anything about life is elementary for me -- in the sense of it being "easy."  Maybe fundamentally necessary, but elementary, not so much.

One of the whole points in me wanting to do this is to also help me understand it better, too.

I'll post more as soon as I have got my book or other sources of knowledge

[danny elfboy]

Well reading some of the posts above makes me feel slightly uncomfortable... And things like this which I have read in the other thread about moveable do surely won't make the atmosphere better:

  I really don't appreciate something like that

It was not a negative remark (I don't give a damn about race or nationality, actually human races are not even a scientific concept)
But as someone has said the moveable Do comes from having a system which uses letters instead of syllabes. As such it is a way to make up for the lack of syllabes as note names. This make it very confusing and in a way unecessary. I do think we in europe that have been trained with Do, Re, Mi and use it whether we sing or do spoken solfege have it easier and less confusing. To think of the tonic of a given tonality or scale as the Do is not straight forward and very confusing but it's also a problem that arises from having C, D, E as note names (that's why my remark about americans)
It's a kind of non issue and as someone has said it doesn't make a difference musically it's just a "note naming" concept. Had we all used "ta ta" "na na" "la la" instead solfege would be easier, more effective and the controversy moveable vs. fixed would just disappear for good

[ridr27]

I'll post more as soon as I have got my book or other sources of knowledge

Yes I will too.
I think the suggestion to post *Table of Contents* of different books is very good.

Hope we have not scared other people off. 

ridr27