What makes Christians unique?

[lostinidlewonder]

"They are all rigidly fundamentalistic in nature - whether Christian, Islamic, etc.  They oppose science, knowledge, and scholarship, which may limit them longterm but is highly successful shortterm. "

That's a good point. It also explains the steady rise in popularity of other forms of mumbo-jumbo such as fortune telling, "psychic" behaviour, spiritualism, Oriental mysticism, gurus and a heap of similar tripe. It's probably successful in the short term because it provides a substitute for thinking; it gives absolute certainty and freedom from thought or reason.

I don't see how it explains the steady rise in anything could you elaborate? How do Christians oppose science and knowledge and scholarship? In fact it teaches to get as wise as you can ever get, but warns with wisdom comes of course pain. How does it oppose science? There are many Christians who work as scientists all over the world. They all must be insane or what?

[ted]

lostinidlewonder:

Once again you have answered with a huge post containing many ideas, which I do not doubt are sincerely felt but which are completely aside from the problem of consistency regarding evil. Just keep to the one point which I raised and for which you have so far failed to provide an answer.  Do you think those five premises are true or do you not ? On the other hand, if you think logical reasoning is inapplicable in religious matters, just say so and save us all some time.

[bernhard]

The idea of Evil being, Natural disasters, animals tearing each other up for food etc, this is blurring what the meaning of evil is. Are you saying that it would be better if animals did not kill but ate all grass? Well this is what heaven is promised to be, lions will eat grass just as the deer do. Why in this life does nature have to be so voilent? At the same time i counter with, why does life have to be so beautiful?

Er... I would like to take issue with that.

What does God have against grass? Why should it be mercilessly eaten in Heaven? What has grass done all of its modest life but humbly supply us with oxygen and be trampled upon? And then in Heaven it gets eaten by the lions as well? Not only Zebras, antelopes, cows, sheep and whatelse, but the lions as well? Give me (and grass) a break!

Incidentally this is another reason I cannot really stand vegetarians: their cruelty towards the plant kingdom.

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard (Spokesperson for the vegetables of the world).

[BoliverAllmon]

Er... I would like to take issue with that.

What does God have against grass? Why should it be mercilessly eaten in Heaven? What has grass done all of its modest life but humbly supply us with oxygen and be trampled upon? And then in Heaven it gets eaten by the lions as well? Not only Zebras, antelopes, cows, sheep and whatelse, but the lions as well? Give me (and grass) a break!

Incidentally this is another reason I cannot really stand vegetarians: their cruelty towards the plant kingdom.

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard (Spokesperson for the vegetables of the world).

ummm....yeah ok.

so why again was this thread brought back?
doesn't make sense to me. it is only going to promote discord and instill deeper hatred. I personally have my feelings about Christianity (I am a Christian myself) but what good does it do to cram it down your throats here when you don't really care to hear it.

I heard an analogy once and i think it applies here.

A pastor starts working at a new church and is all fired up about it. He is so excited and decides that he needs to go visiting the community and inviting people to church. The head deacon told him to beware of a certain man. The deacon said the man is anti-anything about God he will tear you to shreds if you go and talk to him. Well the pastor wasn't going to back down from any fight and went immediately to that man. The deacon was right and the man and pastor went at it. They debated this that and everything having to do with Christianity. While the pastor was talking to the man a little boy name Johnny came up to the pastor and asked the pastor if he could know some more about Jesus. The pastor being so full of pride and determining not to back down kinda shooshed the boy away and said later. The pastor finally had to leave due to being so late, but promised he would be back to debate somemore. So the pastor came the next day and the day after and every day for an entire month. And every day Johnny would come over and politely ask the pastor the same questions and every time would get the same answer. One day after being completely rejected by the pastor, Johnny ran home in dismay. He was so hurt that he forgot to look as he crossed the street and was hit by an oncoming car and killed immediately.  The pastor heard the car screetch and knew immediately what happened. He knew that Johnny earnestly wanted to know about Jesus, but he was too proud and self-righteous to talk to him and now he would never get to hear about Jesus and it was all his fault.

boliver

[pianonut]

i believe that faith and science are not opposed because God created science in the first  place.  science cannot prove how everything came into being.  science cannot explain evil.  the concept of 'evil' is not scientific, so why are you asking this except that you are curious about faith?

good and evil started in the garden.  when sin came, death came.  that's as simple as i take it.  i sometimes wonder if the animals were all at peace then, as they will be later (in Isaiah65:25) lion eating straw like an ox.  ps straw is grass that has died naturally.

the 'creation is material, visible, and therefore seems real.' but, what if God intended originally for man to live forever, for there to be no sin, and for animals and humans to live in peace.  what if what is unneccesary is the pain and sufferring caused by sin.  what if everything on this physical world was cursed by sin, until again attaining perfection by the second coming of Jesus Christ?  being an animal lover, i have often wondered how much the animals have sufferred due to sin.  and, visa-versa, how much the spirit of satan can enter an animal and cause sufferring to humans (dog bites, wild animal attacks).  we know that Jesus cast out evil spirits and sent them into swine, so perhaps also they are involved in the spirits of lions, bear, etc.  if you are a christian you have faith to contend with evil situations (daniel in the lions den).

it is interesting that many natural disasters occur simply because humanity has not gone God's way in terms of caring properly for the earth.  we know the ozone layer has become depleted.  this is not God's doing, but mankinds. 

[pianobabe56]

I must say that I am very impressed with this thread! From what I've read, there's been a lot of courtesy of other people's beliefs, and nothing truly nasty compared to what I've seen on other religious threads. It makes this thread very informative to read. Thanks to those of you who contributed to that attitude!

[pianowelsh]

Lets see - knowing Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour is pretty unique to christianity Its the best bit too because all the other stuff comes out of trusting in him. such as sins forgiven  - restored rel with God the Father, being filled with his holy spirit....the benefits for the Christian are pretty endless - in fact im sure thats why we have eternal life - its so we can enjoy the goodness of God and his many blessings forever....You never get bored by the Goodness of God. Tell you what else i ve noticed that other religions and indeed non religions dont seem to feature is Grace allied with Holiness. Most people i know have to do certain things or pray certain ways to count for eternity or they feel self sufficient and believe they are good enough themselves both seem to lack a sensitivity to Grace - (just totally not deserving God to be merciful to us). Thats why Christians have a 'real' peace because we know that our eternal happiness and standing before a God who IS holy and hates sin is not dependent on our ability atall but it is paid for by Christ and we stand clothed in his richeousness (his rightness before God) not our own. Actually the more I think about it the more i realize Its like Dark and Light - Christians are unique!

[pianowelsh]

I will just make a couple of simple clarifications.
1. You run into problems if you dont believe that the Bible is Gods word (principally because it says it is) and if you dont go with that bit everything in it you will read with a strange miscomprehension.
2. At no point in the Bible does it say that you can be born or raised a Christian. Being raised in a Christian home is a heritage but it dosent change your eternal standing before God  - according to scripture.
3. God says there are objective standards in his word. Postmodernism says there is no definate right and wrong. Now sure there are grey areas BUT the bible does say that there is such a thing as SIN. this is not Christians making a judgement on people as is often suggested. For the simple reason every Christian in the world has sinned and been a sinner - if they tell you they havent the truth is not in them. But God says Sin is serious - that is precisely why God sent his son jesus to make a payment for it.
4. Which leads me to the final clarification and that is that God is Holy. Now that does not mean that he is waiting with a big stick to beat us when we go wrong (that would be in contradiction of his Grace and mercy)... in fact his word says that he desires none should perish (which actually in origional lang trans  - he does not actively seek anyones destruction). However his Holiness means that he cant look upon SIN which is why Jesus had to make a payment for it - so his Purity and Holiness could be satisfied. This is why a Christian who trusts in Christ can be guilt free because Jesus has taken the punishment we deserved and this is why god in his Love for us urges us to call on the Lord and be saved because it is equally true that the wages of SIN is death and the gift of God is eternal life and this is in his son.

In Christianity as in other religions it is the case that 'Not all israel is israel' and this can cause regretable confusion. Christianity is not about point scoring its not about being good enough its about Faith - so that no one should be able to boast - except in Christ who has actively completed all that was necessary on the cross Which is why christians can do this 

[pianowelsh]

Ted - I just read your post! I posted before i read because i knew id get side tracked!
Evil in the world - how exactly is that supposed to proove the non existence of a higher creator being . The bible says a child left to himself will destroy himself and its true when you see how vicious children can be its no wonder we have wars and injustice and nation rising against nation. Think about this if God says he is Light (which he does) then there is darkness yes!?! and i don't know about you but if im in the dark and i turn the light on it makes me realize just how bright the light really is. I have to say one of my favourite brothers in the Lord recorded in scripture is JOB at first glance not the most uplifting read but he shows what i believe is actually a realistic attitude to suffering. He begins with trust and walking out his faith before God trusting that God is good. Then trials come and boy do they come - i would dare to say not one of the tsunami victims suffering eclipsed his - he suffered BAD. He didnt understand the suffering and he didnt enjoy it he knew it was bad and he wept over stuff but he never questioned the fact that God was a good God and that everything came from him and belonged to him - in fact he praised God. Now NB God was not doing bad stuff to him  - he merely allowed satan to do what he wanted. God rewarded JOBs faith and restored him because he is a good God.
There is a war going on in the heavenlies we rarely see explicitly - Satan is truely evil and scripture says he roams the earth seeking to devour and destroy - Satan is the very antithesis of God - with the exception he is not equal in power. I propose that this is why whenever there is a disaster in the world the world doesnt just crumple in to a well of self pity and die but God is gracious and he sustains and grants aid and binds up the broken hearted.
The greater question than 'how can God allow evil?' Is I would suggest 'Why is God so Gracious and compassionate and longsuffering?' dont antcipate reaching the bottom of Gods character anytime soon being as hes infinite but in the meantime i'll take an example from Job and praise him for his goodness - its too easy to focus on the evil going on an miss gods blessings - i do it and God has to keep reminding me whos in control

[xvimbi]

I have asked this before, but haven't gotten a good answer: How come Christianity is concentrated in the Western world, whereas the other major religions are concentrated in other regions of the world, yet every single one of them claims his/her religion is the only one? How come people growing up in a Muslim environment end up being Muslims, people growing up in a Buddhist environment end up being Buddhists. Have the non-Christians not seen the Light? Does the Christian God choose, or has she not had the time yet to visit all corners of her World?

[chopiabin]

If human nature is to preserve the self, to have sex, to actually live a life, and god created humans, then why does he now call those things evil? It is not god that calls anything anything - WE created this morality of self-denial because the benefits of society outweighed those of solitary life. When we were solitary animals, we were like a tiger - there was no "right" and "wrong", we simply followed our instincts. For the formation of society, those instincts had to be suppressed by our wills - we were forced to compromise, share, etc., things which were totally unnatural to us. Because those things that we had always done now brought punishment, we eventually looked at almost every natural human instinct as wrong, as something that would bring punishment. Even desires that do not really compromise society that much, like the instinct for sex were supressed. This is how our current self-denying morality began - we are literally torturing ourselves, we have no respect for the animal that resides within us.

Someone please actually respond to my posts instead of just reading them and refusing to hear what they say. 

[pianowelsh]

Cool! It has to be said that there are many millions (in fact hundreds of millions) of christians in the east (over 100 million in China) there are christians in places like Afghanistan and N Korea too where to be a christian is NOT easy (in fact you can be put to death - so much for tolerance eh!). I should make clear too that NOone is born a Christian even if there born in the bible belt. God isnt limited in where he saves people. I have a friend who was saved (he was a brahmen priest in india) in india, not exactly someone you would put on the most likely to become a christian list. I cant tell you how God will save the nations - like a check list but he has saved in so many nations across the world - and we know that the end will not come until the gospel has been preached in EVERY nation. In response to 'has the christian God not had time yet' there are a couple of points if i may?! God is patient and longsuffering not desiring that any should perish. Put simply and im afraid bluntly God is giving time for people to come to repentence. God isn't like a mother rushing to get everything done on the way to pick up her child from school.. a day is like a thousand years to God and a thousand years is like a day... hes in no rush but he doesnt waste time and everyday God is bringing people into relationship with himself - the statistics in heaven will be amazing - it will take an infinite God to organize them. I dont know if you inteneded to call God she? I know my japanese friend gets he and she confused sometimes but we are told that God is 'Father' and this is because he is eternally masculine (plants the seed - not to put to fine a point on it). Jesus who was fully God fully man also took the male form. Interesting actually because people often say that when men cry or show affection they are getting in touch with their femanine side. But God is Love and we are told that specifically at least once he wept over jerusalem. Interesting!

[ted]

I am sure all the opinions voiced by religious people on this thread are sincerely felt. However, the problem of suffering existing in the presence of an omnipotent, good, omniscient creator still poses a deep philosophical problem invariant across all religions. Now so far on this thread, nobody has fully addressed this inconsistency from the Christian perspective. This result endorses my opening suggestion that Christianity is unique by virtue of openly embracing inconsistency. Most of the other religions make some concession to consistency by negating or partially negating one of the five premises. Buddhism, for instance, and please correct me if I am wrong, negates the existence of a creator and has a lot of sensible things to say about suffering in general. Buddhism is, from what I have seen, pretty consistent.

Other religions have relaxed various of the other premises and thereby attained consistency - perhaps a thoroughly unpalatable consistency, but consistency nonetheless. Perhaps the strangest path is to refute the notion of goodness. That is to say the universe is the work of an evil supreme being. I must admit that although I do not particularly like the idea I would find it stupendously difficult to disprove philosophically. Certain very bright people have embraced this position, some cases bordering on the humorous. On the light side, Paul Erdos, the mathematician came to believe in a being he termed the "Supreme Fascist", who knew all mathematical truth and continually thwarted human attempts to understand it.

Anyway, these diversions aside, it seems to me that the reluctance of Christians to face this deep-seated philosophical issue, even in a relatively minor discussion on a music forum, is well demonstrated on this thread and only confirms my original supposition.

Chopiabin:

I find little to dispute in your posts.

[chopiabin]

Read my above post. I think it's interesting that god is in human form AND a man. Hmmmm, anyone notice something? Freud also calls god a type of father figure (progenitor of society anyone?) that is an attempt by the human mind to cope with life's difficulties - a coping mechanism for the weak.

Good job responding to my post!!! Or was it too difficult for you?

[chopiabin]

Sorry Ted, that wasn't directed at you.

[pianonut]

i don't think we should go back to the victorian society, but i would be afraid to walk around in this society if every man/woman acted upon his/her feelings (ie. tiger you mention)  i suppose some men/women might think it a great society until the ravages of syphillis and other std's did them in.  the humanism in the romantic era brought many to believe and then later disbelieve what they espoused.  as you say, it brings punishment (though i'm not sure why you bring in the concept of punishment if you don't believe in sin).

chopiniabin,  i think you are searching.  sex sounds very important to you.  what about a relationship?  do you only look for sex to fulfill your life?  why not a permanent partner?  don't give up just because you don't understand God.  quit trying.  he is unsearchable.  what do you have to lose?  why do you fight so hard to maintain a separate identity from what you were created for (order and not chaos).  we are not as the animals but made a little lower than the angels!  that means we have a position of great value to God.

[pianowelsh]

Hi Chopinabin -you have a lot of questions within questions but i ll try to answer you as its within my ability to do so - ok?! It has to be said yes humans do lean towards self centeredness (as opposed to God centeredness). Can I sort one thing out straight away though God doesnt say its SIN to have sex. He says its wrong to have sex outside of a comitted marraige where he is honoured - essentially casual sex with anyone and everyone when you wont commit under God - its actually very sensible because God knows how vulnerable it makes us and he doesnt desire us to harm ourselves. Anyway God dosent change his mind capricciously his objective values and character dont change. Therefore when he first gave the law to moses it wasnt God dreaming up a new set of rules. case in point is God disciplined Cain for murder long before law was officially given (they were a reminder to the people that they served a Holy God). There was never a time when we were solitary (possible exception Adam before God gave him Eve) and before then Adam walked with God in the Garden (so he was never an island) but God gave him Eve and as far as right and wrong was concerned God only gave one command in the garden (NB it wasnt if you choose to eat of this fruit i wont be happy with you but you can do it - it was DONT) then Adam and Eve soon knew what it was like to be wrong (they followed their instincts and listened to someone who deceived them - ouch). Today we still struggle with this question what is right what is wrong. God is very clear about it but do you recognize the deceiver still 'did God really say you couldnt...' trans 'are you sure there is a God, is the work of Jesus really enough to save you etc etc etc'. I have to confess I dont quite understand where you are going with the self denial thing??? God knows all thing (accord to scripture) now i believe evidence points to the fact that people 'get to be like those they live with' as they say.. extending this God ought to be the most bound up and self denying torutured ever... yet he is infinite he is Love he is patience mercy he is gracious ...... not tortured. God as the christians heavenly father leads us in a way which brings us into freedom from desires and cravings and he satisfies our needs. Theres no image of repression or anguish or unforfilled longing. There is freedom in Christ and peace that passes understanding.
Does this mean christians are perfect and never get frustrated  or cross or upset .. No of course not we are human too and subject to all the same stuff nonchristians are but rather than turning inward for help or outward to humanity which as we know so often lets us down Christians can turn to a heavenly father who has nothing but Love for his children and who is working out his salvation in us by his holy spirit, and how can christians do this? Its because we have an advocate with God the father in the person of jesus christ who has taken the punishment we deserved justly for disobeying in his own body on the cross so that those who believe in him wont die spiritually. He has restored our access /communication with God because of his goodness and has made the Christian acceptable 100% in the sight of a Holy God so that we can talk to him in every situation. He loves to bless! Every respect to you Chopinabin ?(Chopin Scriabin??) but have you tried taking your questions to God direct - he is not distant. Ask him to show you who he is and who you are. If you have a bible its worth reading the Gospels too - dont get me wrong the whole book is GOOD but i am thinking particularly with referrence to people being self denying and trapped there are tons of example amongst the people Jesus met.

Hope that even if you dont agree with anything it has helped give a perspective on things. Bless you for asking all your questions

[chopiabin]

How dare you patronize me?

The concept of punishment comes from the establishment of the relationship between creditor and debtor - one pays for services rendered. When someone acted against their debtor, they were punished as a sort of repayment for the betrayal. This is how society came to function - society rnders services, and if you do something that causes chaos within it (ie. expressing natural instincts) you are punished. Punishment is what originally created long-term memory. Understand that I do not wish to have chaos, but I think that humans need to make their wills (that wich suppresses desires) and their instincts (those desires) into one thing - to become as Nietzsche would say it,"supermoral". Where we would no longer need punishemts or society to tell us what is right and wrong for us, but a morality that respects the human animal - we would truly develop a conscience that would be the combination of our wills and our desires.

Back to the fact that you so pretentiously patronize me - you think I'm obsessed with sex because I mention it as a human drive? You do not know me or anything about me. I am not seeking god -  the concept is laughable to me. It actually disgusts me. That is one of th problems with you weak-minded people - whenever you can't refute an argument against your beliefs you simply say, "Oh, they're just seeking," when most of the time the person arguing against you simply hates ignorance. 

[chopiabin]

  don't give up just because you don't understand God.  quit trying.  he is unsearchable.  what do you have to lose?

WOW. This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard. I can't believe that you can believe in and place your life in the hads of a being that is impercptible and that you yourself have decided not to try to understand. I think it's sad that you just remain comfortable in your little beliefs rather than even make an attempt to look outside them.

[chopiabin]

Pianowelsh: My comment about patronizing me was not directed towards you but towards pianonut who assumes that I am some sort of sex fiend because I mention it as a human urge.

Anyway, when you talk about the origin of Adam and Eve, you forget that I do not believe that that is the orignin of humanity.

Also, I never said god is tortured, I said that god is a device that man has created the tortures man.

Also, with regard to instincts, why would god gives us natural instincts and desires when he created us, but gives us rules that tell us that those urges are "evil"?

[pianowelsh]

Ok guys! I dont have infinite time so this will be last post today! but I have to ask Ted where is this inconsistency philosophically or otherwise. God is Holy.. Satan is a deceiver. Christ has the victory (by the way that includes for you) because he was obedient to death on the cross. Put simply its the greatest love story ever told where Good triumphs over bad. Is it totally played out yet ...NO but the wicked force in this real life story is awaiting termination from which there is NO return - and im not telling you anything thats not in black and white in scripture. Chopiabin bless you, the Godman is not easy to get your brain around actually you wont see it unless christ reveals it to you by his spirit (like peter). Point is God never stopped being God in Jesus. He was fully man too - he bled and died. But notice something, unlike with Freud the son (Jesus) was obedient to the father (God). With Freud God is an imagination brought into the subjection effectively of the human... subtley the exact opposite. It is because Jesus was obedient that we have salvation. For those who would claim that Christianity was made up in first century you have a problem too as much of the bible is in fact historical and predates the first century and aside from that it cites that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world- so the concept of salvation is not 'new'. Agreed though it is for the weak! in fact its for the totally helpless and spiritually dead - thats why its the gospel of life. the NT cites that we were all dead in our trespasses and sins until we trusted in christ and were made spiritually alive. Though we are weak he is STRONG. Tell Corrie ten Boon an innocent christian woman who was tortured during the war that she was weak and she would have graciously agreed with you and then said - but in him i am stong 'his strength is made perfect in my weakness' - manifest in the way he helped her publically forgive a man who abused her and killed her family... she is not an isolated example... job is a perfect one... god allowed him to get to a place where he was totally dependent on him and God was glorified when he came through those trials still testifying to the goodness of God. Bless you guys but i would challenge you both to read Gods words for yourselves and take the time to get to know the one you scoff at - it wont be time wasted.

[pianowelsh]

It was going to be my last post. Right we are in creditor debtor relationship only we can never afford to pay the debt. Thats why according to scripture God sent his son Jesus on our behalf to make the payment there was no way we could. Ok you dont accept thats where it started (the garden) but I did mention that an issue is if you dont accept Gods word as his word. I don't want to opperate outside of what he has made known because thats pure speculation and why speculate when you can have the word of truth???! I know you didnt mean to infere God is tortured but I was trying to show that as a Christian we ultimately grow in our likeness to our creator (the one who we are in rel with) and meant to draw a paralell to show that as God is not tortured neither is the Christian believer. Can i point out that 'No-one seeks after God' Chopiabin so your not alone. I hope it dosent really disgust you though as an intellegent person im sure you wouldnt be so quick as to right off something as large as the Gospel of Jesus christ without investigation. Must go they arekicking me out of college. Blessings (i dont mean that patronizingly)

[ted]

Pianonut:

Victorian England as an example of a moral society ? I don't think you are that naive are you ? Victorian society was a hideous hotbed of sanctimonious religion, hypocrisy and cruelty of every type. You do not seem to give human beings much credit for any common sense or kindness at all. This is the classical Christian schism which assigns everything bad to human beings and everything good to the deity. I do not require to imagine a spook with a big stick to form my morality or to try to be kind. Such is an insult to my intelligence as well as my humanity.

[ted]

Oh dear Pianowelsh, as Basil Fawlty says, can we finish this conversation before one of us dies ?

I respect your right to hold any sort of religious and mystical notions you may choose but, along with the other Christians, you persist in answering with a whole heap of ideas totally irrelevant to the simple problem of evil. Am I to assume then, that you view my aforementioned set of premises completely consistent ? 

[chopiabin]

Pianowelsh, I know its hard for you to understand, but I do not believe that god exists, so telling me what Christ did doesn't really affect me. I think that the idea that god is love is laughable - his whole moral code is in complete opposition to everything natural about humanity.

I don't really undertsand what your'e saying about Freud, it wasn't very clear.

I actually went to a Christian elemetary school, and had to take two years of bible in highschool - I'm pretty familiar with everything it says, but it doesn't take years of reading to understand the morals that it espouses.

I would argue that it is not the "gospel of life," but the "gospel of unlife". It calls one to go against one's nature and never to fulfill one's desires to be rewarded in an afterlife.

Why does the religion praise weakness? Because it is antilife and was created by a people who had been all but defeated, not because weakness is a virtue. Weakness has come to be seen in a positive light because of Christianity, but again, it is against what is natural for us.

Christianity was born when Jesus was placed on a cross. The morality that it espouses had been around for much longer, but it came to bloom with the death of Christ. Christianity is a great deceiver - it claims to be about love, but it actaully hates the animal man and is constantly waging  war on his "sins," which are actually just his natural instincts manifesting themselves.

[lostinidlewonder]

Ted, the 5 points you brought up.

1.   There exists a supreme being.
2.   The supreme being is unconditionally good.
3.   The supreme being is omnipotent.
4.   The supreme being is omniscient.
5.   Evil and suffering exist.

Firstly 3 and 4 are characteristics of a supreme being so the entire list should be reduced to just 1,2,5. These are true statements, but how does one get to that conclusion?

1) There exists a supreme being (a god, a creator)
How would one logically come to this conclusion if we cannot get physical evidence to prove. For instance wouldn't it be easy to go to a place where god would appear to you and tell you whatever you needed to know. That would cause a lot of belief i would think. But in reality we can't get that, so what do we look for then? If there is no physical evidence we can find what other test measures are there? And this is not fantasy thinking now, the law system throughout the world convict criminals with circumstantial evidence not rock hard evidence. If a man commits a murder and cannot justify why he was found at the scene that places a part of evidence that he was responsible for the crime. Furthermore, more circumstantial evidence surmounts if they find out he had an argument with the deceased, threatened them, if they had a history of violence against the person (beats wife reported for instance) or other criminal convictions, these all make up a case against someone if there is no hard evidence like fingerprints or eye witness testimony.

This relates to God very strongly. How do we find evidence of God if there is nothing that can directly point to him singularly? I would have to say that there are a few bits of questions we cannot explain which definately point in the direction of God.

Firstly, we have to agree that Human Knowledge is not supreme. There is a great deal of "technology" and understanding of life that have not discovered. We cannot travel the speed of light for instance, we cannot re-create the entire process of life (cell division, creature creation, body part growth). Because of this unknown scale of the missing part of understanding life we have, how can we disregard god? One bit of reason to support God existence.

What else. We cannot explain the universe, how it starts, how it will go on, where are its bounds, if there are bounds then what lies beyond those bounds etc etc. We theorize with Big bang theory, theories that black holes will engulf the entire universe to one singular point again and then boom explode, and this continues forever. Sounds logical, sounds right, but we cant be sure, we have to have faith that the science is right don't we? Why not the faith that God created it? This is a choice to have, much better than shrugging the shoulders or sitting on the fence, have an opinion, take a risk, you may change your decision as you ponder it through life, I don't think in the end you could be blamed for it.

More evidence, we observe that we are the only creatures on this earth which have a concept of God, nothing else knows of God except us, we also observe that we are the only creatures on this earth which has choice. We also observe that people who have a close connection to God experience personal guidance through prayer, great strength in time of despair. So there is inbuilt in our species a concept of God, the great majority of us believe in a supreme being. This is not to say that God exists, but it points in a strong direction, is it more likely 95% of us are wrong and the 5% who don't believe in a god are right? If you where on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE and you asked the audience to answer you a question and 95% said A and 5% said B (after you use a 50/50 of course lol), would you go, ummmmmm B?

And probably the strongest most important point which supports Gods existance is Jesus Christ. Again I point to the book, The Case for Jesus Chirst by Strobel which totally discusses if Jesus actually existed and if the "story" of christ can be trusted.

Ill stop there, i can give more examples if you need it. But these three points cast considerable support into the existence of a God. So it isn't all left up to belief. Believe and then develop your belief, make it more laced with wisdom and knowledge and application to life, when you first believe it is different to the next year, is different when you are an old person, it constantly changes and strengthens. That again pushes for an investigation into what is this personal connection with God all about.


The Supreme Being is Unconditionally Good
He is perfect in his own terms, and his terms have to be considered Good. But don't get me wrong, our God has a lot of anger in him too. Look at the great flood in noah's time, how he destroyed cities, enticed war, its all there in the Bible just read it, god isn't all butterflies and fluffy rabbits. But he does this for the cause of good. He wipes out what he considers evil, people going against his word, living in sin and having no remorse for it. If we are the sinful creatures of course we are going to say God is bad, hes punishing us! But I have to say what is your real concept of God? Is the master the servant? To a few it is the other way around, the servant is the master, God must be in my terms. When we say The supreme being is unconditionally good what are we asking, what are the conditions? Your conditions? The conditions of the servant? Tell me, does the servant tell the master what to do, and what makes the master conditionally a good one? No no no, it is utterly arrogant and wrong. We need a concept of God, we cannot give conditions to him, once we know he exists the conditions are made to you, not the other way around.

Evil and Suffering Exists
Yes it does, i know lots of people who suffer who doesn't? Evil is found in anyone, we all have potential to do evil things, murder, rape, stealing etc. Only humans can do evil though because we have choice and we know what is right and wrong, everything else in this world is bound to instinct.

[ted]

Whew ! Okay, you have convinced me that you think all five premises are true  and that you see no inconsistency. At least we now have that much clear.

I see gross inconsistency if all five are assumed because suffering is indiscriminate. Why does an animal suffer a painful death, say, through a predator or in a forest fire ? Why does an innocent child die a lingering death from cancer ? To assert that these victims of nature brought about their fate by rebelling against a deity seems to me absurd. If you assume the existence of an omnipotent good deity why does suffering have to exist at all ? Remember we're talking about omnipotence here. An omnipotent deity could single out the bad eggs and knobble them without touching anybody else. He doesn't; he chooses to inflict suffering on all and sundry. The buck stops with the boss. Of course the boss could have gone to lunch or died at his desk I suppose.

[janice]

Even desires that do not really compromise society that much, like the instinct for sex were supressed. This is how our current self-denying morality began 


Someone please actually respond to my posts instead of just reading them and refusing to hear what they say. 

Ok, I will respond to your post here!  Please elaborate on the instinct for sex being supressed, and that this is how our current self-denying morality began.  Christianity is not a list of dos and donts, but there are GUIDELINES in the Bible.  First of all, I want you to realize that God created sex!! <gasp>  He even said that "it is good".  <big gasp>  BUT God has guidelines in place, and this is because He knows us better than we know ourselves, and he could forsee sexually transmitted diseases, for example.  So.....that's one of the reasons why God said that sex is to be between two MARRIED people, and these 2 people must be of opposite genders, not the same gender.  So.....God is not some "cosmic killjoy".  Also, studies have shown that those in a monogamous marriage describe their sexlife has much much more satisfying than those who have had multiple partners.   Hmmmmm.....maybe God DID set guidelines because He knew what would bring us the greatest pleasure.

[janice]

How dare you patronize me?

I did not sense any patronizing by anybody, let alone pianowelsh or pianonut.  I think there was a great deal of truth, and it was spoken with respect and with love.  However, I will say that you, Chopiabin, sound like a very angry person.  I am not judging or patronizing, I'm just telling you what I sense. I could be either right or wrong.   I, too, feel that you are searching. You seem to go out of your way to disprove God.  If someone says that they are praying for you, you shouldn't get mad at that.  Rather, just humor them because if there truly is no God, then that person is merely thinking nice thoughts about you.  No threat, right?  But I think that you are not quite sure that there is a loving God.
 Keep searching, because God will richly reward you and it will knock your socks off!

[timothy42b]

Ok, I will respond to your post here!  Please elaborate on the instinct for sex being supressed, and that this is how our current self-denying morality began.  Christianity is not a list of dos and donts, but there are GUIDELINES in the Bible.  First of all, I want you to realize that God created sex!! <gasp>  He even said that "it is good".  <big gasp>  BUT God has guidelines in place, and this is because He knows us better than we know ourselves, and he could forsee sexually transmitted diseases, for example. 

No, Janice, you've missed an important point here. 

One of your premises is that man is inherently sinful and needed to be saved by Jesus's sacrifice.  This sinfulness either came from Adam's original screwup, or it is inherent in human nature - both sides have been argued.  This premise is pretty universal within Christianity but is NOT shared by all religions.

When it comes to defining what is sinful, Christianity clearly puts the sexual related ones at the top of the list.  There are more proscriptions and more guilt associated with sex, whether criminal in nature or simply unmarried, than with anything else.  Paul for example clearly thought a Christian should be celibate, and only if a person were too weak to do that should he adopt the lesser evil of marriage.  Christianity shares this harsh attitude towards sex with Islam and Judaism (I think).  This attitude towards sex again is not shared by other religions and cultures.  You may not have that attitude, but your big gasps reflect an acknowledgment that it exists and is part of Christian doctrine. 

I would respond to some of the other points, but honestly most of these posts are so long I can't get all the way through them.  Maybe an editor should be assigned.   

[Floristan]

I would argue that it is not the "gospel of life," but the "gospel of unlife". It calls one to go against one's nature and never to fulfill one's desires to be rewarded in an afterlife.

Why does the religion praise weakness? Because it is antilife and was created by a people who had been all but defeated, not because weakness is a virtue. Weakness has come to be seen in a positive light because of Christianity, but again, it is against what is natural for us.

Christianity was born when Jesus was placed on a cross. The morality that it espouses had been around for much longer, but it came to bloom with the death of Christ. Christianity is a great deceiver - it claims to be about love, but it actaully hates the animal man and is constantly waging war on his "sins," which are actually just his natural instincts manifesting themselves.

Good stuff, Chopiabin!  They're just ignoring you because they don't know how to respond and they're so involved with out-theologizing each other and then patting each other on the back for making yet another meaningless, Jesuitical distinction.  It's harmless activity, I suppose, but doesn't answer the many questions you've raised throughout this thread.

I'm more Kierkegaardian than Nietzschean, but I agree with so much of Nietzsche's criticisms of Christianity -- a religion of deathand afterlife, not life; a religion that encourages passivity and acceptance rather than fighting opression, a religion that is filled with superstitious beliefs in miricles and divine plans, and most disturbing, a religion that believes it's the only "right" religion.  And all this based on a man, Jesus, who was one of several "saviors" in the holy land at the time, all of whom believed themselves sons of God, any one of whom could have been suffering from schizophrenia, replete with delusions of grandeur and hallucinations.

So you see why I find Kierkegaard interesting, as he was full of deep doubts himself but still made his "leap of faith" over the chasm of the absurd and improbable, never lying to himself about how absurd it was.  Either that was very dumb or very holy.

I have a deeply spiritual life; it just doesn't include adhering to a religion.  More of an Emersonian and Emily Dickenson sort of thing, with a good dollop of zen where there is no god, but there is a spiritual path.  To think we're akin to angels, those mythical beings, seems absurd.  Our animal natures are abundant.  Religion has always sought to rein in our natural instincts.  There may have been a time when religion was needed to keep society orderly, but I think it's time has past.  People can, and do, develop morals and ethics that keep them from being nothing but animals completely without religion.  It's an institution that should have died long ago but persists as a panacea for the frightened, the lonely, and the insecure.  I suppose it will always be with us, as Nietzsche has been proven right about the "eternal recurrance of the same."

Look, if it works for you and gives your lives meaning, by all means pursue it.  I'm all for happiness.  I find it more readily without religion.  It's the great variety of experience, I guess.

[janice]

 They're just ignoring you because they don't know how to respond and they're so involved with out-theologizing each other ...

I don't think that anybody was purposefully ignoring Chopiabin.  I just counted, and 41 posts were made here on March 16th.  There is not enough time in the day to respond to every one of those posts!

[pianonut]

dear Floristan, Timr, and Chopiniabin,

living peacefully with all people is more a 'gospel of life' than presenting
'knowledge' as a form of one-up-man(woman)ship.  say you understand God, the universe, and all science and spirit...can you make yourself eternal.  Nietche and others thought so.  eternally nothing.  is this what you want after death?

when people ask a reason for my faith (what makes a christian unique?) i would think they would address christians and not just themselves.  is this patronizing to speak what you believe?  no.  but, it may turn into spiritual warfare that is unseen, because our faith is contended and wanted to be overturned by doubt.

paul (saul) before he was converted killed many jews and christians.  he hated the idea for what they stood for.  But, when God allowed him to see (gave him the Holy Spirit) he began (BEGAN) to understand what God was doing with a very small group of people.  He was beginning a family.  Did Paul fully understand family.  No.  but, he did understand persecution.  At the time Paul was living, there was SEVERE persecution of jews.  He admonished (partly for this reason) that it is better not to marry at these times.  Would you want to see your family killed?  No.  It would be better not to have one.  BUT, paul went on to say that if a man (or woman) could not control themselves, it would be BETTER to marry.  

I also think that the Bible addresses everyone.  So that everyone can have encouragement.  Pehaps Paul himself had sexual issues and had to control his urges whether homosexual or not.  He had to change his views of aeseticism to fit Christ's example (far from one's own natural thoughts) of love for neighbor (what will give them a good name) and love for God's law and not man's (Greeks/Romans) law which seems to address everything (perfection) without God's help.  To us, abstention seems holier (take for instance the Catholic notion of priests abstaining).  I'm not saying that I don't respect catholic's, just that it forces some of them to be tempted.  They should not feel tempted, and just marry.  this is God's way.  He knows our weakness (as he had the same temptations, but did not sin).

[timothy42b]

I don't think that anybody was purposefully ignoring Chopiabin.  I just counted, and 41 posts were made here on March 16th.  There is not enough time in the day to respond to every one of those posts!

You are so right.  Many of those posts are so long it would take most of the day just to read them.  Like Mozart or Ruark said, use enough notes - but only enough notes. 

In my denomination we have a tradition that a sermon will have three themes and three subthemes.  That seems a lot, but our preachers tend to be on the erudite side, and we see that as a generous limit, not a minimum requirement. 

[timothy42b]

dear Floristan, Timr, and Chopiniabin,


I also think that the Bible addresses everyone.  So that everyone can have encouragement.  Pehaps Paul himself had sexual issues and had to control his urges whether homosexual or not.  

pianonut,
The Bible can be interpreted in many ways, but I don't know of any Christian denomination that does not consider most sex sinful, except for some very prescribed exceptions (within marriage for procreation, for example.)  There are no Age-of-Aquarius free-love style Christian churches.  (Nor Islamic nor Judaic, as far as I know.) 

Sex as sin seems a little overemphasized to me.  True, it is a natural urge, and if we are by nature sinful most of our urges probably are too, but no others carry the amount of societal disapproval and guilt sex does.

Is it really a good thing in the long run to have based so much religious doctrine on the sinfulness of sex?  True, there is some scriptural basis, but humans seem to have gone out of their way to make a big deal of it. 

[chopiabin]

Janice: What I said was that the suppression of natural urges (not only sexual, but all selfish urges) that society's existence demands is what causes this morality of self-denial.

Also, I am actually not an angry person unless I perceive ignorance. Pianonut basically took the fact that I said sex drive is a natural urge and said a bunch of stuff like, "Sex seems very important to you. Have you ever considered a relationship instead of just random sex?", or something like that. To me that is patronizing and judgmental - he does not know me or anything about me, and, instead of responding to my ideas he was simply trying feebly to attack me.

I also think we need to make something clear here: Just because something may be pleasant to believe in does not mak it true. Pianonut asked me if I would like to believe in a system where there is no eternal life, but he dosn't realize that just because the idea of an afterlife is pleasant does not make it exist.

My problem with your "gospel of life" is that it denies man's selfish desires. Imagine man in the wilderness, before society. He was like a tiger - there were no restraints on him, and he hunted and took whatever he wanted. At the very start of society, much of that selfishness has to be denied or suppressed simply so that society can exist. Nietzsche calls that dichotomy the origin of the soul. Look at things like torture, rape, etc. - they all seem the product of a mind or a person who is "evil" right? What if he is just unhealthy? Because man is not allowed to express his selfish desires or to exert power over others, sometimes something inside of him snaps - he has an unhealthy mind that is tortured by this ascetic, self-denying morality. Then he rapes or molests a child, and it feels good to him - he is finally expressing that power and selfishness that have been pent up for so long.

[chopiabin]

Because I can't continue retyping the same stuff, some of my opinions are on the third page of the "Homosexuality" thread, or the "Why do we need God" thread.

[timothy42b]

Because I can't continue retyping the same stuff, some of my opinions are on the third page of the "Homosexuality" thread, or the "Why do we need God" thread.

Psst. 

Select.  Right click.  Copy.  Paste.

But don't tell anybody.  <smiley> 

[pianowelsh]

Bless you guys. You all got really steamed under the collar for some reason?!?! I was merely responding to the title of the thread when i talked about jesus' saving work on the cross - it is what makes christians unique is trusting in Christs work for their salvation. OK you may not agree with it you may find it 'totally disgusting' etc etc and a whole host of mildy intolerant statements but it doesnt change anything - thats what makes us 'unique' and thats why i can say assuredly im going to heaven and Noone can stop me.
With the greatest of respect I dont expect you all to react positively to the gospel. They crucified christ! - im glad they dont do e-crucifixions! but like i said to someone it is not flesh and blood that reveals the mystery of christ to you - it is his holy spirit.
As for the assertion of spiritual point scoring?!? whats all that about? Believers who trust in christ have 'all things in common' because christ is all in all.

Im sorry if any of you feel i havent answered all your questions fully - please spell them out in words of one syllable. - I'll do my BEST - i am fallible though (ie not GOD)

and goodness i didnt realize you wanted three point sermons with powerpoint presentations and illustrations of propitiation! I am a music student not a doctor of theology or a high powered evangelist. Just a servant of the living God - to whom be blessing and Glory for ever and ever - world without end...... God bless all bros and sisters in christ on this forum.

just a final one - why did you start a thread if you had a preconcieved idea of what your answer would be?? - im just curious

[pianonut]

Dear Chopiniabin,

i am a she (pianonut) and believe -- just as you have said -- that you are not obsessed about sex, just wondering why certain things are so in this society.  i accept that.  i accept your questions as valid questions and arguments.

personally, i find some of the best debaters to be lostinidlewonder and many of the others that have responded directly to you (and Ted and others) questions one at a time and with great length.  maybe their answers will reach you better than mine.

if you base life on the idea that the fittest survive, it sort of turns God into an evil entity that only wants the strong (and that the weak don't matter).  but, actually as lostinidle put it, probably prostitutes and murderers that have repented (tho, some still received prison, death sentence, judgement, etc.) will be in God's kingdom (and higher than those who think they are righteous).

so, as i see it.  don't try to be overly righteous yet don't be caught in the 'affairs of this life' to the detriment of your spiritual journey.  we are told in the Bible to be moderate in all things.  whether drinking, marrying, giving in marriage (for we are told all these things will be - right before Christ returns).  is there anything wrong with drinking, marrying, etc.?  no.  is there anything wrong with alchoholism and same sex marriage.  there is if you read the Bible.  laws that society make cannot overrule God when Christ returns.  Anything may be legal - but not lawful to God.   So, why do I make this case?  Because, christians, of all ages, nationalities, and disctinctions in faith usually still hold to the ten commandments.  these are in the order that God put them.  Sex is not at the top.  It's almost last.  God is at the top.  We should have one God, that he cannot be duplicated by an idol (money, wisdom, anything), that we should not take his Name in vain, that he wishes to be worshipped on the sabbath, then he starts with parents to honor them.  I think God knew that our selfish urges, which are dealt with as a child by parents who want their children blessed by a Heavenly Father will be taught to honor their parents as an example of how to honor God (and visa-versa).  You can't do whatever you want (say run in the street) so your parents have to give you time-out or whatever - to learn right from wrong.

getting back to the sexual tie with sin.  adam and eve were naked and had nothing to be ashamed about.  it was the tree that eve ate from that caused her to see herself as unclothed.  now, i'm not really saying that the french riviera is where we would all be now if she hadn't done that.  but, i wonder if sin as a whole entered man's mind.  then, all down through history, you have people that were righteous or evil.  there is no middle ground.  what makes this distinction is accepting God and his laws, or denying God and making up your own.  i suppose this is becoming a heated argument...but i don't see sex as the issue.  i see sin as the issue.  what if, for instance, we were all allowed to be on the french riviera and everyone controlled themselves!  (i know some do already)  say that everyone perfectly kept the law and did not seek out vengeance or corruptness.  who knows?  we might have a much different life.  clothing is probably just to make it less difficult for people to sin.  (much like not serving alcohol to an alcoholic)  these are physical bodies that will be transformed (like a seed) to spiritual bodies.

[chopiabin]

Why did god create humans to have selfish urges, and then punish them for expressing them? My point about these urges is that they ae the same urges that animals in their natural habitats feel - selfishness is the only way to self-preservation. My question is, why are those natural urges, which you believe god instilled in man, now evil?

[ted]

It has been an interesting, remarkably good-tempered discussion all round and I have learned much from it. Pianonut, I politely point out that the contradiction implicit in the existence of gratuitous suffering in the presence of a wholly kind and merciful creator has NOT been logically explained by Christians in this thread, and I consider the thrust of my original post still valid. There have been several very lengthy and, I hasten to add, genuinely expressed replies, but the core of it remains unaddressed. The issue of sex and sin I would do well to keep out of, as I have never had problems with the former and, as I am an atheist, the latter notion has little significance for me.

I thought Floristan’s post the most interesting so far, principally because he introduced the idea of the importance of happiness. I am inclined to think this is very close to the heart of things. Russell said long ago in one of his excellent essays that he considered religions were mostly emotional and had little to do with logic at all. This thread, to my mind, has amply confirmed his assertion.

Lostinidlewonder also mentioned happiness in relation to Christians, in his opinion, being happier than non-Christians. Going on local evidence and my own experience, I would guess the proportions to be roughly the same but that’s just a casual observation and matters little. What does matter is to what degree an individual ignores reason in order to give his life emotional coherence.

Can this emotional coherence, sense of a place in the universe, stability of personality, positive and kind influence on other living creatures, what Jung called individuation, be attained within reason and without recourse to any religion or foundation myth at all ?  I, for one, think the answer is quite obviously yes.




   

 

[pianonut]

to Chopiniabin,  'why did God create humans to have selfish urges?' i don't think He created us to have them.  But, we are tempted by our own desires to go against God's will (much like children and parents)  Satan also tempts us (as he did Christ).
i think it is to learn to have character.  what if we were all atomatons?  we would just walk around doing robotic things (like ants - though they are advanced more than we think).  it is a challenge to live a godly life and certainly not an easy choice as some would have you believe.  (but filled with blessing both now and later).

to Ted, i don't fully understand the suffering that mankind has gone through (world wars, murders, children dying of cancer, starvation).  I don't know.  I don't attribute sin to God, but I would probably politely ask 'couldn't you have had your Son come back a little sooner and straighten this all out.'  Then He would probably say that a thousand years are like a day to him, and He was preparing a place for us that no longer had sin, death, sufferring so we could compare the two ways (His way and our way) and realize the huge difference.  Cancer, and disease may be a form of sin that we don't understand.  What i mean is, our diet is not what God originally intended.  Perhaps in Revelation a bit is discussed (rev.22:2) 'in the middle of it's street, and on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'

[Floristan]

pianonut--

Living a "godly" life does not require belief in God or Jesus or Allah or Vishnu or Shiva or any of the many dieties humans have created in their own image.  Morals and ethics exist independent of religion.  Living and pursuing a spiritual life can be achieved easily without religion.

In my opinion what makes Christians unique, to get back to the original topic, is only that they think of themselves as unique.  Muslims think they're unique, too.  So do adherent to many other religions and sects.  My grandmother belonged to the Church of God, whose members thought they were so unique that only they were going to gain admittance to heaven!  If there is a heaven, I'm sure God has walled off a special section just for the Church of God, so they'll never know they're not the only ones there.

I understand that your belief makes you feel good about yourself, but do you really, honestly think that those who do not believe like you are doomed?  Do you not think the mind of God is perhaps a little bigger than that?  Omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent -- and yet you would have us believe that he's given Christians a set of written instructions on how to save themselves while others burn in hell.  It's this circumscribed, limited understanding of God that I don't get.  Why would he give you people the inside track and not other religions?  Why would he require such a proscribed and circumscribed set of beliefs, so un-god-like, to gain admittance to his presence?  God is way bigger than your religion holds true, IMO.  Christianity is not required to have conscious, daily contact with God and to live in a godly way.  Indeed, no religion is required -- just a deep awareness of the self in face of the universe and the sincere humility that experience instills.

[timothy42b]

pianonut--


I understand that your belief makes you feel good about yourself, but do you really, honestly think that those who do not believe like you are doomed?  Do

Some very good points.  They make sense.  That doesn't necessarily mean they are true, but they do make sense. 

Pascal's Wager is often cited.  Basically it says believing in God does no harm if there is none, but not believing will turn out to be a BAD THING if there is one, so the prudent thing is to believe.  Floristan points out a potential problem with the PW.  There are hundreds or thousands of proposed God candidates, and believing the wrong one will get you eternal damnation just as fast as not believing at all.  So PW is not simple at all. 

Unless, there's more than one path available.  Which would seem likely, given a benevolent and omnipotent God. 

[pianonut]

Paul addressed this to the Athenians.  Some of them, when they saw miracles, attributed them to Paul.  You can tell the true church by what they say.  Paul didn't get a big head and take all the credit and say 'yes, i'm god.'  He (acts 14) said 'we are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them.'  of course, that didn't turn all the greeks from their belief in many gods (zeus, etc.) but some. then he goes on to tell them (acts 15) that he makes no distinction between jew and greek 'cleansing their heart by faith.'  so there is no huge prescription of things you have to DO.  it is, to me, the heart of the law (worshipping the Creator and the Word - who spoke and all things came into being) to just love God and keep the commandments.

[pianonut]

i guess my debating point is that you have to prove which God truly hears you.  Perhaps, depending on people's faith, Allah is one and the same (provided that God can easily save Jews and Arabs - since they all came from two brothers anyway).  I don't think Muhammad was around until after Jesus Christ.  Also, he was a prophet and not a messiah.  He didn't take away our sins.  Some believe Christ was only a prophet, too, but that would make so many things not understandable.  why don't jews continue to make sacrifices?  many understood (after the GREAT earthquake that happened the moment Christ died) that something had taken place (another happened when he was arisen - the stone was rolled away) that was historic.  i suppose if one is archeologically minded, they would also research the historical side of things in and around the area.  also, everything prophecied in the bible has happened.  even down to our day.  i know some start laughing when prophecy is mentioned, but in matt. 24 christ himself said 'there will be wars and rumors of wars, but be not afraid.' 

i believe we are getting down to the final days of life on this earth as we know it.  it might not happen in our lifetime (and may not for 300-500 more years) but we know it's getting close.  God gave us a time frame of a week.  7 days.  if God considers a thousand years as one day, then we are getting close to the six thousand (counting the generations of the bible - and not previous creations of God or 'angels abodes').  the last thousand years are referred to in the bible as the milleneum.  it is spoken of in isa. 65:17, zech 14:16, and specifically in rev. 20:6 'blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.'  it also explains what happens after this.  so the reason Christians are unique, to me, is that they believe everything that God says.

[janice]

I understand that your belief makes you feel good about yourself,

I know that you addressed this to Pianonut, but I would like to "jump in" and comment on this, because we are both Christians.

Actually, my belief doesn't make me "feel good about myself" one bit.  In fact, it is very convicting.  I am convicted of my sin, and I see the incredible price that was paid for my salvation (and your salvation too, if you choose).

do you really, honestly think that those who do not believe like you are doomed?   

God said it in His Word, I didn't.  I have just chosen to believe that God is trustworthy.

   Do you not think the mind of God is perhaps a little bigger than that?   

Quite the contrary.  It shows me that God is not only perfectly just (sin cannot go unpunished.  I said SIN, not SINNERS.), but that he is perfect love (He chose to take the consequences of sin upon Himself--in the form of a man, Jesus Christ)

and yet you would have us believe that he's given Christians a set of written instructions   

No, He has given PEOPLE a set of "written instructions", and the CHRISTIANS are the ones who choose to believe it.  God's words and promises are available to YOU, too.

  Why would he require such a proscribed and circumscribed set of beliefs, so un-god-like, to gain admittance to his presence? 

The only requirement for addmittance is belief--but not merely intellectual assent, but a life-changing belief.  Think of it this way--when Jesus was crucified, he hung on the cross between two thieves.  One of them said "surely you are the son of God".  So he realized who Jesus was and he believed it!!  And what did Jesus say back?  He said "today you will be with me in paradise"!!!  He didn't say "well, you can't join me in heaven unless you come down off of that cross that you are nailed to and (fill in the blank)"

  God is way bigger than your religion holds true, IMO.   

That's the first thing you have said that I sort-of agree with.  Yes, God is bigger than anything.  But don't underestimate God until you fully understand God's requirements, and the enormous price that was paid for our (including yours) salvation.

   Christianity is not required to have conscious, daily contact with God and to live in a godly way.  Indeed, no religion is required -- just a deep awareness of the self in face of the universe and the sincere humility that experience instills.
 

Oh come on!  You are smarter than this!

[Floristan]

You refer to events in the Bible as "historic."  I would not agree.  There is no independent confirmation for much of what takes place in the Bible -- no disinterested party saying yes, I saw Jesus turn water into wine, yes I saw him feed the many, yes I saw him walk on water, yes I saw him raise Lazerus, yes I saw him materialize in the spirit after he was dead.  The only accounts of these events are by people with a big agenda, accounts written 60-100 years after the events supposedly took place.  The writers of the gospels were trying to gain converts and consolidate power (whatever their spiritual motives may have been).  They took considerable license with the truth, IMO, to further their ends, which they identified as being consonant with what God wanted.  Throughout history people have justified all kinds of behavior on that basis, believing they were doing what God willed.
As Nietzsche observed, "The gospels must be red with kid gloves," meaning you have to sort out what may have actually happened and what was later grafted onto the story.  Jesus the preacher and charismatic man and his crucifixion seem real to me.  Jesus the miracle worker and Jesus the literally resurrected do not.  I think a folk mythology grew around Jesus after the crucifixion, and that the gospel writers took advantage of that mythology when writing the gospels.  People are naturally superstitious and will more readily believe in a miracle worker than in a simply good and holy man.

As to the absence of the body from the tomb, any number of people could have accomplished that bit of grave robbing for any number of reasons.  Rival religious sects thinking they would get even by stealing the body of the rival messiah, only to have it backfire on them.  The disciples themselves, in order to stage the greatest miracle of all...actual physical resurrection of the body, not just the spiritual resurrection Jesus spoke of.

And as to the end of the world, one hardly needs the Bible to prophesize that!  Overpopulation alone will bring on our extinction, and how ironic, really, since most of the world's religions believe procreation is the prime function of us all, regardless of how it's destroying the earth.  I just cannot see this as God's plan for us, to stupidly procreate until we extinguish ourselves in our own garbage, filth, pollution, and disease.

And war as an indicator of the end of times?  Humans have never been without war for very long.  If it is an indicator of the end of times, then the end of times has been right around the corner since the beginning of our recorded history.

I appreciate that these are your deeply held beliefs, pianonut, and that you believe you have an answer that works for you, and so I'm glad for you.  Your answer does not work for me.  If that means I'm not going to your heaven, so be it.  You may find this hard to believe, but there are many other ways to get to heaven!

[Floristan]

Janice --

So you think God decided to give Christians a written set of instructions on how to achieve salvation because he felt sorry for them?  That he sent Jesus here because he felt sorry for his creation?  That Jesus preached loving God and loving one another (good stuff) but then said, strangely, that people had to believe in him personally in order to be "saved"?  That God sent Jesus here to give us the good news that belief in Jesus was the way to heaven, and the bad news that not believing in Jesus was the way to hell?

Sorry, that's not a God in which I can believe.  I say again, Christianity is not required to have a spiritual life that is directly connected to God.  That is my belief and my experience.