HELLO HELLO, I NEED HELP

[mycrabface]

Can someone help with this BIBLE passage. How do you interpret this:

The woman and the dragon:
And there appeared a great sign in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up unto God, and his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12

[ahinton]

Ask (for such help) and it shall be given unto you (although, that said, I think that our "pianistimo" must be slowing down, since she has yet to respond despite your apparently having initiated this thread at least five minutes ago...)

Best,

Alistair

[mycrabface]

Ask (for such help) and it shall be given unto you (although, that said, I think that our "pianistimo" must be slowing down, since she has yet to respond despite your apparently having initiated this thread at least five minutes ago...)

Best,

Alistair

RIGHT, OKAY, THAT'S VERY FUNNY. HA-HA-HAR.

[thalbergmad]

Ask (for such help) and it shall be given unto you (although, that said, I think that our "pianistimo" must be slowing down, since she has yet to respond despite your apparently having initiated this thread at least five minutes ago...)

Best,

Alistair

She is too busy at the moment putting the finishing touches to her "The Grand Canyon is only 2000 years old" theorem.

Undoubtedly she will give a response to this, but i predict it will be 5 times longer than the original text and will make no sense at all.

Thal

[counterpoint]

To the interpretation of dreams, take a look at Sigmund Freud's

DREAM PSYCHOLOGY

_PSYCHOANALYSIS FOR BEGINNERS_

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15489/15489-h/15489-h.htm

[beethoven2]

First of all: this book is exclusively prophetic in character.  It belongs to the class of apocalyptic literature in which the divine message is conveyed by visions and dreams.  The title which the book itself assumes (1:1) may mean either "the revelation which Christ possesses and imparts" or "the unveiling of the person of Christ."   Grammatically the former is preferable, for this text states that God gave this disclosure to Christ that He might impart it to His servants.  Revelation was written for the express purpose of declaring "the things which must shortly come to pass" (1:1) in order that the evils might be prepared for the events that were about to confront them. The book of Revelation provided a new perspective on history by showing that the kingdom of Christ was eternal, and that it would ultimately be victorious ove the kingdoms of the world. 

There are four main schools of interpretation. The Preterist holds that Revelation is simply a picture of the conditions prevalent in the Romanempire of the late first century, cast in the form of vision and prophecy to conceal its meaning from hostile pagans.  The Historical view contends that the book represents in symbolic form the entire course of Church history from the time of its writing to the final consummation tand that the the mystical figures and actions described therein can be identified with human events in history. The Futurist, on the basis of the threefold division given in Revelation 1:19 suggests that "the things which thou sawest" refer to the immediate environment of the seer  and the vision of Christ (1:9-19)  "the things which are" denote the churches of Asia, or the Church age, which they symbolize (2:1-3,22), and "the things which shall be hereafter" relate to those eventswhich will attend the return of Christ and the establishment of the city of God.  The Idealist or Symbolic school treats Revelation as purely a dramatic picture of the conflict of good and evil which persists in every age, but which cannot be applied exclusively to any particular historical period.
(These are copied points from The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary)

Some quick things: two hundred threescore days=1260 days

                              The dragon is Satan


Okay.  I think (I THINK.  Tomorrow or the next day, I will post again with new information that will varify whether or not I'm wrong, and/or add to what I have said) that this is showing a vision to John (and us) of how Satan became cast out of Heaven.  The devil 'makes war' (as my version says) with Christians ( those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (17) )

This passage (Chapter 12) means that satan will not give up.  verse 7: War in heaven; Satan was defeated. The woman represents faithful Israel. The big picture, the purpose of the nation is to bring Christ to the nation.    Robert Harkrider has  a workbook on Revelation.  It is thought to be the best you can get.  I highly recommend it. 

I also recommend the English Standard Version of the Bible.
                             
Hope this helps!  If it does not, PLEASE say so.  I will be glad to explain better.

[mycrabface]

Some quick things: two hundred threescore days=1260 days

                              The dragon is Satan


Okay.  I think (I THINK.  Tomorrow or the next day, I will post again with new information that will varify whether or not I'm wrong, and/or add to what I have said) that this is showing a vision to John (and us) of how Satan became cast out of Heaven.  The devil 'makes war' (as my version says) with Christians ( those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (17) )

This passage (Chapter 12) means that satan will not give up.  verse 7: War in heaven; Satan was defeated. The woman represents faithful Israel. The big picture, the purpose of the nation is to bring Christ to the nation.    Robert Harkrider has  a workbook on Revelation.  It is thought to be the best you can get.  I highly recommend it. 

I also recommend the English Standard Version of the Bible.
                             
Hope this helps!  If it does not, PLEASE say so.  I will be glad to explain better.

Alright. The dragon means satan: yeah I figured.
The women represents israel, I got that one too.
That's as far as I can go. What about the stars? The crowns? I'm sure they signify something...

[beethoven2]

These things may have meant something to the people back then, but mean nothing now.  BTW, this is a hard subject to understand unless you read everything that leads up to it.  It basically signifies the battle between Satan and Jesus.

[prometheus]

https://bible.cc/revelation/12-1.htm

[pianistimo]

agreed with beethoven2 about the prophetic nature of this vision given to the apostle john while on the island of patmos.

now, as i've said before, i'm not a scholar -- but i do believe the bible interprets itself.  the church is often referred to as a 'bride' - or a 'woman'  and the fact there are twelve stars in her crown signifies the 12 tribes of israel which give birth (in you all the nations of the earth will be blessed...) to an eternal israel (church) which is in labor.  the labor is living under sin.  this world is to be born afresh in the millenium and we are 'pilgrims and sojourners' instead of enjoying the delights of this world.  we are waiting for the next because it will have a true shepherd and there will be no more war and no more crying.  spears will be beaten into plowshares and pruning hooks...and nation will not lift up hands against nation ...neither will there be war ANYMORE.  that's a good thing to look forward to.  peace.

but, we have the entrance of the 'dragon' (satan) having seven heads (empires - according to the book of daniel) that did not have Jesus Christ as the head of their government.  they also have ten horns (these last ten are prophecied in daniel to be the 10 toes - or 10 nations that unify briefly together)  and they fight agains the church and against God (Jesus Christ) at his return.  they gather together for war - but the church is relieved of it's persecution when God takes them to a place that Satan cannot reach.  we don't know the time or the hour - but we know that God has the power to protect us in times of nuclear warfare.  He is beyond our physical universe and can protect us from fire, nuclear capabilities, anything!

in fact, this church is nourished for 3 1/2 years - which is said to be the exact time of the tribulation. when the world is experiencing the worse plagues that mankind has ever seen.  intense heat.  intense pollution.  all in rev. 8.  that leads up to the return of Jesus Christ.  for those christians that have not been wholly christian - they will endure sufferring too - with the rest of the world that they may 'wash their robes...'  some endure death 'and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death.'

'and when the dragon saw that he was thrown down tot he earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child (Jesus Christ - so it's talking about the church!) and two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.' 

'and the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.  and the earth helped the woman (divine intervention) and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.'

'and the dragon was enraged with the woman (the church - as it had protection from God) and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring (people who are like the 10 virgins - 5 had oil (go to church regularly and honor God) 5 did not (did not attend church or honor God as they should - but KEEP the commandments) who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.'

imo, this is why it is very important to keep friends close that you can walk together with.  you help each other and warn each other of things that are about to happen through the gift of the Holy Spirit.  if you are not a part of the body - you don't know what is going to happen.  when you attend Church -  you are given a portion of the divine revelation by the fact that you are not 'forsaking assembling of yourselves together.'  God always does things in an orderly way - and i'm sure that when He is about to do something on the world scene - he will warn Christians through their churches.  There is never 'not enough room' - but there are always christians who do not come to the banquet table that Christ prepares.  it's almost ready.

[timothy42b]

Nicely deceptive title there, crabface!  Sucked me right in.

I would have to think about the symbology a bit - although I've read this stuff, I haven't paid much attention to that end of the Bible for obvious reasons - the modern day utility is somewhat limited.

But here's a start.  You CANNOT read Revelations unless you 1) have some idea of the historical context and 2) have some idea of what midrash means.

History.  Israel was an occupied territory, with an uneasy relationship to their Roman governors.  In the year 66 AD or CE, whichever you prefer, armed rebellion started, and four years of warfare began.  The effect on the population was devastating.  Starvation was rampant.  In the end the rebellion was utterly crushed and the Temple destroyed for the final time.  Paul died in 64 AD, before these events, though one would think he must have been aware of the tensions.  The rest of the NT shows evidence of being written during or after these times.  Particularly Revelations must be read as war literature.  The Dragon is probably the Roman emperor.  Remember that passage about lukewarm being spewed out of the mouth?  Direct reference to one of the three different factions during the rebellion.  (One proRoman, one antiRoman, one self interested or lukewarm). 

Midrash is too complicated to get into briefly and too threatening to many Christians, but significantly influences the writing style of the NT.

Finally, consider this.  Prophecy is NOT prediction.  It is almost never intended that way, and that would have been obvious to the writers and ancient readers.  It is only modern uneducated people who insist it is.  Instead, it is conceptual theology. 

[pianistimo]

no.  the bible speaks plainly.  even the name 'revelation' implies something 'revealed.'  foretold.  something to happen.  now, when the flood came - people had been warned for 100 years!

we will have had 2000. 

there is nothing that God does unfairly.  we do it to ourselves by not reading the bible literally.  the end WILL come.  just as it is foretold in revelations.  there WILL be armageddon.  it is already happening.  nations ARE gathering around the area.  and they WILL fight.  first against each other - then God.  but, as revelations tells - they will be overwhelmed by the angels of God and God's mighty hand.  He has the power to destroy entire nations and armies and set up the millenial rule of Jesus Christ on this very earth.

[thalbergmad]

What complete and utter cobblers.

Thal

[dnephi]

But therapy's expensive, and, since you lost your job...

[timothy42b]

no. 

How rude and arrogant of you!

I made a reasonable attempt to express what men of faith who've prayerfully studied these texts think.

You simply deny it.  No evidence, no logic, no possibility of error.  All you have to do is say no, and the case is closed. 

Are you claiming direct revelation?  Of all the billions on this planet, God speaks directly to you and only you?  How else can I intepret a response of "no"?

[pianistimo]

no.  i read the bible.  it explains itself.   if people want to imagine that it is fables - i do not believe them.  read it for yourself and then determine what it is saying.  don't rely on others to tell you.  God's Holy Spirit is a spirit of wisdom and knowledge.  beyond the kind you get at college.  there is a certain kind that IS prideful because it centers only on what we as humans understand.  but, revelation is from God - and He always explains himself. 

when God says in rev. 1: 'the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place...'  He is saying that in God years (shortly - meaning from the beginning of revelations to the end of revelations - it will  be the complete history from Jesus to the kingdom that He establishes on earth - and that each thousand years will be as a day to God).  shortly, means we who are alive at the second coming may experience what these prophets longed to see.  the actuality of it happen.

John foresaw each church era from his time to our time.  also, in rev. 4:1 Jesus said to him 'come up here, and I WILL SHOW YOU  WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THESE THINGS' - (after the gospel is preached in all these different church eras). 

here's what rev. 6 says will happen possibly in our very days:
white horse- false religions
red horse - war
black horse - blights of the ecology and weather/famine
ashen horse- sword/famine/pestilence

tell me that you are ignorant of what times we live - and think it will go on indefinately.  then we will see who is blind.  it might be those very 'prophets' that are telling you peace, peace - when there is no peace.  and, that God has no strength to fulfill His word.

[pianistimo]

sorry to sound harsh.  i didn't write this.  God did.  but, God is just and also can see the future.  it is us who are blinded by our own pride.  rev 17:12 'and the ten horns which you saw ARE TEN KINGS, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they recieve authority as kings with the beast for one hour.'

there are many places like this in revelations and other books of the bible that say this = this.  Christ explained his parables to the disciples likewise.  otherwise, noone would understand.

[penguinlover]

This is a very difficult subject, since the book of Revelation is a book written in symbols.  But I take offense to have someone tell me that if I believe in it, I am uneducated.  It was written to explain things to come.  Since we are still here, these things haven't happened yet.  We can see some of the prophecies taking place, but not all have happened yet.  I tell people we have at least seven more years today until the end comes. 

The Bible was written for us to understand.  It is God's word to us.  It reveals Him.  You may not agree with what the Bible says, but don't put down those of us who do.  Thank you.

[thalbergmad]

You simply deny it.  No evidence, no logic, no possibility of error.  All you have to do is say no, and the case is closed. 

Are you claiming direct revelation?  Of all the billions on this planet, God speaks directly to you and only you?  How else can I intepret a response of "no"?

You are wasting your time with these fundamentalists. Their minds are closed and their heads in the clouds. They believe without question in their silly book of fables and myths.

I would not be surprised if Pianistimo thought that God talks directly to her.

Thal

[soliloquy]

SHE'S A FURRY!

[pianistimo]

furry?

what does that mean?

[thalbergmad]

I have no idea, but i would like to find out.

Thal

[mycrabface]

agreed with beethoven2 about the prophetic nature of this vision given to the apostle john while on the island of patmos.

now, as i've said before, i'm not a scholar -- but i do believe the bible interprets itself.  the church is often referred to as a 'bride' - or a 'woman'  and the fact there are twelve stars in her crown signifies the 12 tribes of israel which give birth (in you all the nations of the earth will be blessed...) to an eternal israel (church) which is in labor.  the labor is living under sin.  this world is to be born afresh in the millenium and we are 'pilgrims and sojourners' instead of enjoying the delights of this world.  we are waiting for the next because it will have a true shepherd and there will be no more war and no more crying.  spears will be beaten into plowshares and pruning hooks...and nation will not lift up hands against nation ...neither will there be war ANYMORE.  that's a good thing to look forward to.  peace.

but, we have the entrance of the 'dragon' (satan) having seven heads (empires - according to the book of daniel) that did not have Jesus Christ as the head of their government.  they also have ten horns (these last ten are prophecied in daniel to be the 10 toes - or 10 nations that unify briefly together)  and they fight agains the church and against God (Jesus Christ) at his return.  they gather together for war - but the church is relieved of it's persecution when God takes them to a place that Satan cannot reach.  we don't know the time or the hour - but we know that God has the power to protect us in times of nuclear warfare.  He is beyond our physical universe and can protect us from fire, nuclear capabilities, anything!

in fact, this church is nourished for 3 1/2 years - which is said to be the exact time of the tribulation. when the world is experiencing the worse plagues that mankind has ever seen.  intense heat.  intense pollution.  all in rev. 8.  that leads up to the return of Jesus Christ.  for those christians that have not been wholly christian - they will endure sufferring too - with the rest of the world that they may 'wash their robes...'  some endure death 'and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death.'

'and when the dragon saw that he was thrown down tot he earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child (Jesus Christ - so it's talking about the church!) and two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.' 

'and the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.  and the earth helped the woman (divine intervention) and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.'

'and the dragon was enraged with the woman (the church - as it had protection from God) and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring (people who are like the 10 virgins - 5 had oil (go to church regularly and honor God) 5 did not (did not attend church or honor God as they should - but KEEP the commandments) who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.'

imo, this is why it is very important to keep friends close that you can walk together with.  you help each other and warn each other of things that are about to happen through the gift of the Holy Spirit.  if you are not a part of the body - you don't know what is going to happen.  when you attend Church -  you are given a portion of the divine revelation by the fact that you are not 'forsaking assembling of yourselves together.'  God always does things in an orderly way - and i'm sure that when He is about to do something on the world scene - he will warn Christians through their churches.  There is never 'not enough room' - but there are always christians who do not come to the banquet table that Christ prepares.  it's almost ready.

OHHHH..... Thanks. But how would you know that male child is jesus? It doesn't have to be jesus, does it?

These things may have meant something to the people back then, but mean nothing now.

The everything in the bible is shown to us for a reason. The bible would not have mentioned something totally useless like one day moses was bored so he stacked pebbles on top of each other and headbutted it.

Nicely deceptive title there, crabface! Sucked me right in.

I would have to think about the symbology a bit - although I've read this stuff, I haven't paid much attention to that end of the Bible for obvious reasons - the modern day utility is somewhat limited.

But here's a start. You CANNOT read Revelations unless you 1) have some idea of the historical context and 2) have some idea of what midrash means.

History. Israel was an occupied territory, with an uneasy relationship to their Roman governors. In the year 66 AD or CE, whichever you prefer, armed rebellion started, and four years of warfare began. The effect on the population was devastating. Starvation was rampant. In the end the rebellion was utterly crushed and the Temple destroyed for the final time. Paul died in 64 AD, before these events, though one would think he must have been aware of the tensions. The rest of the NT shows evidence of being written during or after these times. Particularly Revelations must be read as war literature. The Dragon is probably the Roman emperor. Remember that passage about lukewarm being spewed out of the mouth? Direct reference to one of the three different factions during the rebellion. (One proRoman, one antiRoman, one self interested or lukewarm).

Midrash is too complicated to get into briefly and too threatening to many Christians, but significantly influences the writing style of the NT.

Finally, consider this. Prophecy is NOT prediction. It is almost never intended that way, and that would have been obvious to the writers and ancient readers. It is only modern uneducated people who insist it is. Instead, it is conceptual theology.

Oh man! I can never get the dates right. I have read the bible, but even so, I have trouble understanding many verses. I think most people have trouble in interpreting it too.
Btw, Revelations is actually my favourite book!

[timothy42b]

This is a very difficult subject, since the book of Revelation is a book written in symbols.  But I take offense to have someone tell me that if I believe in it, I am uneducated.  It was written to explain things to come.  Since we are still here, these things haven't happened yet.  We can see some of the prophecies taking place, but not all have happened yet.  I tell people we have at least seven more years today until the end comes. 

The Bible was written for us to understand.  It is God's word to us.  It reveals Him.  You may not agree with what the Bible says, but don't put down those of us who do.  Thank you.

Point by point:

A book written in symbols?  No it's not.  It is literal and plain, pianistimo says so and she knows.

If you believe it you are uneducated?  No, I never said that.  I said it is a book that requires some education to understand.  Those of you who have not made the effort CANNOT understand it.

Written to explain things to come?  Not at all, in the opinion of most scholars who have studied it.  Scholars does not mean atheists.  Scholars means faithful Christians in seminaries and theology departments, who have prayerfully devoted their lives to this quest.  (But of course you know better.)  Prophecy and prediction are not the same.  They have never been the same, even in the Old Testament. 

Since we are here, they haven't happened yet?  Yeah, well except for the parts that aren't really prediction, and except for the parts that referred to events in the rebellion against Rome, which very definitely did happen. 

We can see prophecies taking place?  Yes, it's like astrology, some things are so general you can claim they happen in any age.  If you have the slightest knowledge of history you don't make this claim. 

Seven more years until the end?  Do know how many people have falsely predicted the end?  No, probably you don't.  Rest assured it is a large number.  Rest assured that many hundreds of times the world has NOT ended on schedule. 

The Bible was written for you to understand.  Yes, I agree.  It mystifies me why you refuse to make the effort to do so.  I do not put you down for agreeing with what the Bible says - my complaint is that you do not know what the bible says, and are too dense or stubborn to realize it. 

Of all the books of the Bible, Revelations is the most difficult to interpret.  Just about everybody agrees with that, except of course pianistimmo and a few others here on the forum. 

[pianistimo]

dear mycrabface,

i believe the same as you- that the bible was written with definate meanings.  people are right here about symbology being used (but it is explained elsewhere in the prophets).  for instance the 'woman' who gave birth to the male child would be 'the church.'  the church was founded - as noted - by moses and the law given to israel.  but - is expanding over the entire earth...so that as paul said - everyone can be 'grafted in.'  jew/gentile - believer - from non-believer. 

satan would not go after his own kind.  he wouldn't kill a spawn.  the fact that EVERY prophet of God has been chased and wanted to be murdered can go back to the time when all the babies of moses time were attemptedly killed/ drowned - and all the babies of Jesus time were murdered (under the age of 2). 

why?  because i don't think satan wanted God's plans to come to fruition.  satan doesn't want us to be saved by Jesus grace.  I think that he wants people to experience darkness and death.  the same punishment he knows is awaiting him forever.  but, for those who do not believe - a second death - therefore a quick death after judgement.  that is why the warning in the 'lazarus' story - that you have a harder time changing God's judgment of you after death (although not impossible - as we see in isaiah/micah some will be raised in the millenium to live out a life to the age of 100).  perhaps also, those who never heard of the gospel will hear it and make a choice.  but, if you hear the gospel now and reject it - that's dangerous, imo.  you are taking a risk that your name will not be in the 'book of life.'  all it takes to be on the good side of God is to repent, put your sins before Jesus Christ, and accept the forgiveness and help of the Holy Spirit to guide you in your actions and thought (by accepting baptism and the Holy Spirit). 

that is how i see it.  baptism was explained by paul as naming Jesus Christ as your leader and not any MAN.  we aren't to follow any particular man if they are speaking against the words of God. 

[timothy42b]

Please define "non sequitor."

Oh, wait, never mind.  Got it. 

[rach n bach]

Just so everyone knows, it literally means "it doesn't follow."

Like the cicken is white, so the barn is red...

RnB

[sue81]

Wow...there are a lot of really interesting comments here. I'm impressed by this piano-loving group!

Bottom line for me on the whole issue, rather than get into interpretations and all of that, is that Christ will return to judge...be ready.

[penguinlover]

This is to Tim,
   I will try to take it point by point also.  First of all, you are correct in saying that Revelation is the most difficult book to understand.  It is the only book that promises a blessing just for reading it.  I don't want to argue with you about the interpretations in this book.  The symbolism has been studied, books have been written, and there have been many theological discussions concering it.  There are many views presented out in the world.  I must say that it is OK to differ on these views.  The essential belief is in accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, accepting His gift of salvation and forgiveness of your sin.  

   In the first verse of the book, it states that it is the revelation of things soon to come.  That sounds like in the future to me.  And by the way, I do take the Bible very literally.  I have never read a scholar that doesn't think that Revelation was written symbolically.  I don't claim to be a theologian, and I am not well versed in the ways of escatology (spelling?), but I have studied the book many times.  I am by no means an expert.

    I have never predicted the end of the world.  No one knows the date or time for that, not even Jesus.  That is stated clearly in the Bible.  We need to watch for the signs of His coming though, that's why we are given so many passages on the subject.   And as for the seven years, that is debatable I know.  There are many schools of thought here, depending upon your view.  I believe that we will be raptured, have 3 1/2 years of peace on earth (a false peace) then the great tribulation, which will last the other 3 1/2 years.  That is seven.  Since we haven't been raptured yet, I believe that means the earth will have at least seven more years.

     What leads you to believe that I don't want to understand the Bible?  I happen to understand it very well, not perfectly, but pretty well.  And how do you know how much effort I put into understanding it?  Does understanding the Bible mean I must agree with you in everything?  That's not going to happen.   But I am open to seeing other points of view.  I use the Bible as my book to live by, the answers to my questions.  When my life doesn't match what the Bible teaches, I am wrong, I am sinning.

    The Bible is written for us to understand.  If it weren't, what would be the point.  Jesus spoke in parables just to make His point easy to understand.  

    Okay, I have said enough.  I don't want to get into arguments, but I felt the need to defend myself here.  If you want to carry this discussion further, PM me.

[pianistimo]

yes.  we clearly have two sides of the fence.  but in the book of matthew - Jesus always says 'be ready - for you won't know the day or the hour.'  why doesn't he say year?  because christians will see prophecy coming true!  we know - for instance - because of revelations - that the 'two witnesses' will be killed in jerusalem - but miraculously their bodies ressurrected from the dead.  that will really shock people!  and, when this happens we know that the 'budding' or fruitfulness of the rest of the kingdom will be a short matter of time.

rev 11:3 'and i will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days'  (a warning for three and a half years to the entire world), clothed in sackcloth.  and if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies; and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed.  these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire...'

when i think about this - it reminds me of the two angels that were sent to sodom.  they looked like  normal human beings.  they went to lot - and lot took them into his home.  but, they were ANGELS.  they had power. from God.  to do many things.

[pianistimo]

'and when they have finished their testimony, the beast (group of nations - or head of world ruling empire) that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.  and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is mystically called sodom and egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. and those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.  and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth (for warning people of God's wrath and showing them that it could come true).  and after three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and a great fear fell upon those who were beholding them.  and they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'come up here.'  and they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

'and in that hour - there was a great earthquake (just as when Jesus died and was ressurrected), and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.'

this is a literal reading - and a literal translation of what it says.  it is a prophecy that WILL come true.  no matter if people believe it or scoff at it.  every word of God is true.

 

[penguinlover]

I'm on that side of the fence with you!

[pianistimo]

i'm really glad to have company.  at least i hope i'm there.  i mean- we'll never know until we hear the words of Jesus 'come, ye blessed - inherit the kingdom that I have prepared for you from the foundation of the world...'  but, if i don't hear it - i'll just have to bargain with Him.  i mean - he does say that we will all give an account of ourselves.  i'll say - that even if i didn't get everything in my life 100% according to his words - that i didn't give up or doubt. 

[thalbergmad]

i mean - he does say that we will all give an account of ourselves.  i'll say - that even if i didn't get everything in my life 100% according to his words - that i didn't give up or doubt. 

If you ever get to the pearly gates and Mohammed is waiting, you have got a problem.

Thal

[pianistimo]

it is then - that you will put in a good word for me.  right?

[penguinlover]

By then, good words will be too late I fear.  I can't wait to hear those words, "Well done, enter.!"   (my paraphrase)

[ahinton]

If you ever get to the pearly gates and Mohammed is waiting, you have got a problem.

Thal

Is Pearl E Gates a direct relation of Melinda of that ilk?

I suppose that, to get into the Christian Heaven, one would have to have the personal endorsement of Pian I Stimo - or is that Susan E Stimo?... They'ee never let me in anyway - they'll have only to listen to any given couple of bars of what I've written and they'll say "NO! CLEAR OFF"...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

By then, good words will be too late I fear.  I can't wait to hear those words, "Well done, enter.!"   (my paraphrase)

Do i take it you are looking forward to dying?

Thal

[pianistimo]

thal, i thought you were agreeing with not taking things so literally.  i mean - we don't have to die today.

and, btw, i don't think muhammad has anything for women in terms of rewards.  i mean - if 10 virgins are waiting for us - what then?  i think i'd say 'ok - what's in the next box?'  i'm not 'you know what.'

and, alistair - don't fret so much.  just do what beethoven and host of other composers did and compose something really great at least once (or twice or three times) for God.  i'm sure he'd appreciate a true composer and not someone attempting something that never gets off the ground.  any composer who can finish a work is a true composer.

[thalbergmad]

thal, i thought you were agreeing with not taking things so literally.  i mean - we don't have to die today.

Now who is the "kettle"? You talk to me about taking things literally.

Thal

PS, I hope there are 10 virgins in heaven. There are none over the age of 14 in the God forsaken craphole where i live.

[ahinton]

and, alistair - don't fret so much.  just do what beethoven and host of other composers did and compose something really great at least once (or twice or three times) for God.  i'm sure he'd appreciate a true composer and not someone attempting something that never gets off the ground.  any composer who can finish a work is a true composer.

Susan, I do not fret - at least no "fret" in the sense that you appear to mean it here. Of course every time I even think of writing a piece it immediately becomes a great worry. But this idea of yours of just going ahead and writing something great, etc. - and you cite Beethoven; can you just try for a moment to imagine what it felt like during the first half of Jonathan Powell's recital last November when, for all his brilliance, my fearful anticipation of my work had to take a back seat while he gave wondrous performance of the Polonaise-Fantaisie and Op, 109, arguably among Chopin's and Beethoven's very finest conceptions for the piano - and then I had to follow them? Your idea of composing a piece for God and the last sentence that you write here simply don't fit together in reality. Just consider for a moment Bruckner's Ninth Symphony - the work that would surely have been his crowning achievement; it was dedicated to his beloved God - and what happened? - he couldn't finish it! It has, as I'm sure you know, three completed movements and the E major serenity with which the last of them - the slow movement - ends is something that beggars description in mere words - but he spent many months wrestling with its finale as his mental faculties diminished and eventually failed to complete it. There has been a number of attempts to complete it in recent years, all of them well-meaning and none of them remotely satisfactory. What is perhaps the most extraordinary fact of all is that, given the dedication, the finale opens with some rather sinister figures but instead of the movement beginning to aspire towards the obviously intended final peroration in D major, it descends into a hell unknown anywhere else in Bruckner's output - the struggle was clearly going to be a rather bigger and longer one than any that he had previously attempted. But, in the end, he couldn't do it - no, even Anton Bruckner himself could see it through. So when you write
"God.  i'm sure he'd appreciate a true composer and not someone attempting something that never gets off the ground.  any composer who can finish a work is a true composer"
I think that you are being especially insensitive (albeit unintentionally) to a composer who nevertheless probably understood as well as any (if not better) what it is that you are trying to express here.

You might like also to explain to me (in a private email if your prefer) what it was that you meant by your remarks in another thread...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

? what remarks.

alistair - how can you know so many details and all?  you are an amazing man.  you are very musical.  yes. you can be a gentleman - (sometimes - when you want to) and well - i consider men like you very dangerous.  that is why i must not e-mail you at this time.  although the thought did cross my mind - if i could make some money rather quickly - might make it there by june for another of those jonathan powell concerts.  i'm so sorry to have missed the last one!  and, i really DO want to hear your compositions.  and, somehow - i think you have it in you to wait until the right moment to compose something fully and completely for God.  bruckner was probably too stuffy or something.  just get it done.  that's  my motto.  regarding piano practice.  am sure composition is like that for you.  what i mean - is that during the night or whenever you get your bits of inspiration (when it's quiet?) - you probably have a napkin or wall to write on so you don't forget it, right?  then, you transfer it to paper (unless you want to sell the publisher your arm or leg with pen marks).

i used to make these dots whenever i'd hear a piece i wanted to transcribe at home.  i didn't have time to make the lines - so i'd have to guess when i came home what the notes were. 

in any case - poor bruckner.  too bad he and busoni couldn't have gotten together and comisserated.  busoni was the one that shouldn't have completed anything (except transcriptions) - and here, bruckner needed some of his plagaristic tendencies so he could finish the durn thing.

[timothy42b]

It is a strange paradox that the people least likely to be capable are the most positive of their interpretations.

Perhaps a piano analogy will help.  I can plan Anna Magdalena's Notebook, though I don't guarantee I can spell it.  I can't play the Fantasy Impromptu and at my age it is a certainty I never will.  I have no doubt whatsoever pianistimmo can play both.

With the Bible, some books are easy and some are hard.  The hard ones need a little bit more smarts and a lot more work, kind of like the FI.  I have no doubt pianistimmo can accurately interpret James, and use it productively in everyday life.  However when it comes to Revelations, it is more likely I will sightread the FI tonight after a couple of beers than she can understand it.

Let me ask something.  susan and I are both Christian, have both studied the Bible, and have come to some very opposite conclusions on parts of it.  When I pray for guidance, I hear a voice say, "get off your butt and get to the library.  I'm not going to spoon feed you, do your own homework."  Why does she hear a voice that says " don't worry, be happy, bang on de drum all day, your opinions are far better than anyone else, insult them all you want?"  Because really it is insulting to be told so rudely there's no chance of anyone else knowing anything. 

[pianistimo]

dear timothy42b,

as your name implies - your first mode of operating is disparaging reading the bible seriously.  42b is a cup size, not a chapter and verse.  i do not doubt that you are a christian, and knowledgeable about many things.  i do not doubt that you believe strongly as much what you do as i do.

but, to tell me that i have not researched the bible beyond the bible itself is crazy!  my husband has a $40,000 theological library in the basement.  if i could stop him from buying more books i would.  but, the thing is THEY ALL SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.  no two scholars tend to say the same thing.  so you can read until doomsday - but you need the Holy Spirit to guide you.  i'm not saying you don't have it.  but, the Holy Spirit tends to lead a group or congregation to the same conclusions.   i do not think that the Holy Spirit strives against itself.

ok.  take for instance in the book of acts - where they say people are speaking in tongues.  many people take this to mean that they were ALL speaking unintelligable words from God (which can happen probably - but it doesn't edify anyone if noone can understand excepting the speaker).  acts 2:6  explains acts 2:3  '...because they were each one hearing them (apostles) in their OWN LANGUAGE.'  very many different peoples were part of this diaspora.  and, they were explaining the gospel in different languages because the Holy Spirit had given them the capabilities.  paul was a very learned man, as you know - and he probably knew quite a few languages - but the other apostles were fishermen and most didn't have the background and education (even in judaism) that paul did.  he was a jew/philosopher/ and once persecutor of the christian (probably for the very reason he thought they were mindless).  but God - in His power - didn't give him a library.  he gave him a burning bush.  why?  because God is greater in power than book learning and words.  He is real and large as life - but we don't see Him in every day life.  you can learn a lot from humility and experience, timothy42b.  you can learn from your children, your spouse, your circumstances (bad and good), and many other things.

now, in your defense - i would say that there is ALWAYS a place for scholarship.  but, not everyone who studies the bible has hours and hours to put into it.  does God require this for membership?  for being a Christian?  no. He says that we should consider the orphan, the fatherless, the widow - and take care of their needs.  so, if i take the side of preferring not to study for hours - does it make me less of a knowledgeable person than you?  paul was placed in many uncomfortable situations and it made him realize that God can choose ANYONE.  a smart person.  a stupid person.  a middle of the road person.  and give them the same knowledge of the saving grace of JEsus Christ.  it's not in books.

[mycrabface]

This is to Tim,
   I will try to take it point by point also.  First of all, you are correct in saying that Revelation is the most difficult book to understand.  It is the only book that promises a blessing just for reading it.  I don't want to argue with you about the interpretations in this book.  The symbolism has been studied, books have been written, and there have been many theological discussions concering it.  There are many views presented out in the world.  I must say that it is OK to differ on these views.  The essential belief is in accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, accepting His gift of salvation and forgiveness of your sin.  

   In the first verse of the book, it states that it is the revelation of things soon to come.  That sounds like in the future to me.  And by the way, I do take the Bible very literally.  I have never read a scholar that doesn't think that Revelation was written symbolically.  I don't claim to be a theologian, and I am not well versed in the ways of escatology (spelling?), but I have studied the book many times.  I am by no means an expert.

    I have never predicted the end of the world.  No one knows the date or time for that, not even Jesus.  That is stated clearly in the Bible.  We need to watch for the signs of His coming though, that's why we are given so many passages on the subject.   And as for the seven years, that is debatable I know.  There are many schools of thought here, depending upon your view.  I believe that we will be raptured, have 3 1/2 years of peace on earth (a false peace) then the great tribulation, which will last the other 3 1/2 years.  That is seven.  Since we haven't been raptured yet, I believe that means the earth will have at least seven more years.

     What leads you to believe that I don't want to understand the Bible?  I happen to understand it very well, not perfectly, but pretty well.  And how do you know how much effort I put into understanding it?  Does understanding the Bible mean I must agree with you in everything?  That's not going to happen.   But I am open to seeing other points of view.  I use the Bible as my book to live by, the answers to my questions.  When my life doesn't match what the Bible teaches, I am wrong, I am sinning.

    The Bible is written for us to understand.  If it weren't, what would be the point.  Jesus spoke in parables just to make His point easy to understand.  

    Okay, I have said enough.  I don't want to get into arguments, but I felt the need to defend myself here.  If you want to carry this discussion further, PM me.

Yes, sometimes there are so many interpretations, I don't know who's got what right.

You can't take the bible that literally anyway. You have to read beyond the lines. That's where everyone's interpretations come in.

Hey do you know some churches are weird. They don't read the bible.

[penguinlover]

I know, and it is very sad.  What's the point?  I visited one a long time ago when my husband was in seminary.  The pastor never opened the Bible, he did open LIFE magazine, and preached from that!  We couldn't believe it!  Anyway, we never went there again.   

[ahinton]

you can be a gentleman - (sometimes - when you want to)

One does try...

and well - i consider men like you very dangerous.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't, by the sound of it; I can apparently be "gentlemanly" but am also "very dangerous". There's clearly no hope for me, then...

during the night or whenever you get your bits of inspiration (when it's quiet?) - you probably have a napkin or wall to write on so you don't forget it, right?  then, you transfer it to paper (unless you want to sell the publisher your arm or leg with pen marks).

No, I have better and more traditional use for napkins, actually, although your remark here comes as a useful if unwitting piece of chiding, really, because I have all too often been too lax about not writing down things as aides-memoire in a sketchbook (like Elagr used habitually to do) and trusting instead to memory - which, sadly, doesn't always work...

poor bruckner.  too bad he and busoni couldn't have gotten together and comisserated.  busoni was the one that shouldn't have completed anything (except transcriptions) - and here, bruckner needed some of his plagaristic tendencies so he could finish the durn thing.

That's nonsense about Busoni! Utter nonsense! And the only major work tht Bruckner didn't complete was that Ninth Symphony...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

When I pray for guidance, I hear a voice say, "get off your butt and get to the library.  I'm not going to spoon feed you, do your own homework."  Why does she hear a voice that says " don't worry, be happy, bang on de drum all day, your opinions are far better than anyone else, insult them all you want?"  Because really it is insulting to be told so rudely there's no chance of anyone else knowing anything. 

There is a great difference between you and pianistimo. You think you know, but she knows she knows.

I am like you in as much as i will read widely and make up my own mind. There are some whose blindness restricts them to the Bible and any other writings that support it.

What chance have you got debating with someone who is guided by the Holy Spirit?

I like your posts and you obviously have a far better knowledge of the Bible than I will ever have. I can only suggest that you don't let the ignorant and chosen ones get to you.

Thal

[pianistimo]

next topic.  bra sizes.

[thalbergmad]

Add "in" to that and you will undoubtedly have a lot to say.

Thal