Jesus has been found.

[ahinton]

Is this the graphically notated score of your latest composition or a photograph of some of your laundry?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Tis a Mandlebrot Set as i am sure you know.

Could possibly be something by Crumb though.

Thal

[ahinton]

Tis a Mandlebrot Set as i am sure you know.

Could possibly be something by Crumb though.

Thal

Never known any crumb that could make stains like those when you accidentally drop them.

Anyway, in the (unholy) spirit of that earlier suggestion of mine to reduce global warming by turning individual threads into composite ones for the sake of cutting the amount of hot air on internet forums...
"Jesus has been found...guilty of masterminding the Diana conspiracy!"
[S(c)h(l)ock, horror, you read it in your super sexy Murdoch-is-God Sun first.]
Not that this is news, mind you; after all, what was the date of composition of An Arimathean in Paris?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

[ahinton]

I am going to burn in the fires of hell, for i am a non-believer.

Post pics like this one and they might not even let you in there, you know - not even if you've been "gathering winter fuel" that you could offer for stoking up the said fires. No - I'd stick with Wagner's magic fire music if I were you...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Post pics like this one and they might not even let you in there, you know

Indeed, i am just waiting for some clever person to make the connection between the painting and the subject of this thread.

Thal

[pianistimo]

joseph of arimathea?  there's nothing clever.  it's just that Jesus was buried actually in joseph's own tomb (probably a cave) and a huge stone was rolled in front of it.  as i hear it - the romans rolled the stone downwards so it was literally impossible to move the huge stone out of place.  the earthquake had to be of such magnitude as to roll the stone.  and there was no body found.

[soliloquy]

I dislike the fact that people always say O God is doing this because he loves us or wants to teach us a lesson

lol no no I can use that to my advantage.  In New Orleans, the only part that wasn't demolished during Hurricane Katrina was the French Quarter, aka the homosexual part.


See, God loves gays.  He just hates the gay-adjacent.  TAKE THAT anti-gay Christian fundamentalists!

[thalbergmad]

joseph of arimathea? 

Hmmm, no.

Still waiting for someone to get the connection.

Thal

[pianistimo]

i think you are mistaken, soliloquy.  new orleans holds mardi gras parades which go past the french quarter - but are not confined to it.  and, yes - many homosexual had something to think about with katrina.  but, homosexuality is no different than some other sins where people abuse their bodies or others bodies (for instance many young boys are seduced intot he act and not willing participants in the beginning).  witchcraft (where human sacrifice is involved) and adultery being two examples.  if you read revelations - it says that these people (without repentance) will not enter the kingdom of God.

if a christian repeats what the bible says - the hatred is put onto the christian.  but, what if the christian has love in their heart towards the people they are speaking God's words to.  everyone sins.  it's not like it's some kind of surprise.  i bet that 90 % of congregations have sinners of every kind of sin in the commandments and statutes that they were addicted to or abused or whatever - even mentally.  sin is sin whether physical or mental.  the internet makes sin very easy.  but, the thing is - when you finally commit to God - you turn from sin to LIFE.  a different way of living and thinking because you want to be like Jesus.  he was NOT a homosexual no matter how many people try to portray him as such.  you can believe what you want now - but you will be called to account for it later.

the bible speaks of homosexuals as 'dogs.'  behavior which does not promote cleanliness of mind or body and does not produce offspring which God intended from the beginning.  so - you can be angry at me.  but, i'm just saying what i read.  it is the same for liars, for adulterers, for people who use God's name in vain.  everyone has some kind of problem in this life they have to overcome.  it's not like God singles out homosexuality.  He puts it all under a category of 'sin.'  but some sins he says are agains the body - which is the TEMPLE OF GOD.  where our minds become dirty.  where our health becomes compromised.  He didn't intend this from the beginning.  how many truly healthy homosexuals do you know?  and for how long are they healthy?

rev 22: 15 'outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.'  this is talking of unrepented sins - as far as i understand.  the thief on the cross probably lied and stole - but he asked JEsus for forgiveness and if he would change his heart.  this is how i understand the bible:  a person is homosexual for a long time - gets aids in their 30's or earlier - is sick for a few years and dies.  the penalty they paid by getting aids - is a punishment.  but, if they repent (which God wants all people to repent and come to Him and be saved) then God has wiped away all their sins.  same for murderers, fornicators, liars.  but, if one dies in their sin - i really don't know what happens.  it would be sad if christians didn't say anything to anyone and kept the gospel to themselves.

one last thing, too - is that i don't believe it is anyone's place to judge another.  these sins can be kept private and privately repented of.  i don't even think telling one's priest or minister is particularly important.  king david said ina prayer 'against YOU only have i sinned, done evil in Thy sight.'  so how much less should christians judge.  especially since they do not have information as to another persons private life. 

[pianistimo]

i happen to be int he minority about the direct consequence of aids to homosexuality, though - and figure it to be quite similar to the killings of spouses when adultery is found out.  do you know how many adulterous relationships end in death?  or severe financial and emotional strain.  i think sin is always 'found out' by God and He helps us draw closer to Him by understanding His wisdom.  it is beyond ours.

also, i think that having aids is similar to having any sexually transmitted disease and that one should be completely honest after living a sinful life (after repentance) with any following partner.  say a man/woman has aids or sexual disease.  it is not a loving act to give it to someone else.  God is so mighty that i do not doubt his capability to heal those with sexual disease (mind and body).  the more one is int he outdoors and appreciating nature - it seems that the more peace and serenity of mind and body.  when you watch the natural ways of God - you can see His hands in everything.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

 this is how i understand the bible:  a person is homosexual for a long time - gets aids in their 30's or earlier - is sick for a few years and dies.  the penalty they paid by getting aids - is a punishment.     

I am intrigued by this. I have always been led to believe that AIDS tranmission rates were at their lowest amongst lesbians, lower in fact than amongst heterosexuals. Should I deduce that God is showing tacit approval of lesbianism?

[ahinton]

homosexuality is no different than some other sins where people abuse their bodies or others bodies (for instance many young boys are seduced intot he act and not willing participants in the beginning).  witchcraft (where human sacrifice is involved) and adultery being two examples.

So you openly equate homosexuality with child sexual abuse, rape and witchcraft. I note that you mention only male homosexuality here, but whilst we can most of us take positions against child sexual abuse and against forcing others to engage in sexual acts against their wills, I cannot see the same applying to homosexuality, still less for the same kinds of reason. I am not a homosexual, but I really do think that this kind of unflinching persecution of all homosexuals, male and female, just because of their homosexuality is inhumane and displays gross insensitivity; I had thought that humanity was now catching up with that fact and I still believe that, to a large extent, it is doing so - but it is not helped at all by the persistence of attitudes that openly cast homosexuality into the "sin" bin along with child sexual abuse, rape and witchcraft.

if you read revelations - it says that these people (without repentance) will not enter the kingdom of God.

Can you please enlighten us all as to chapter and verse in the Book of Revelations where homosexuality is condemned to the point where those who practice it without "repentance" will not enter the Kingdon of God? If you can do this - and if you will do it - I'm sure that you will strike a chord with some of those homosexuals, both male and female, who are nevertheless also committed and devout Christians.

if a christian repeats what the bible says - the hatred is put onto the christian.  but, what if the christian has love in their heart towards the people they are speaking God's words to.  everyone sins.  it's not like it's some kind of surprise.  i bet that 90 % of congregations have sinners of every kind of sin in the commandments and statutes that they were addicted to or abused or whatever - even mentally.  sin is sin whether physical or mental.  the internet makes sin very easy.  but, the thing is - when you finally commit to God - you turn from sin to LIFE.  a different way of living and thinking because you want to be like Jesus.  he was NOT a homosexual no matter how many people try to portray him as such.  you can believe what you want now - but you will be called to account for it later.

Far too many people label other people in terms of their sexual proclivities and preferences. I don't. Consequently, I do not think of Christ as a homosexual or as a heterosexual, not only because I never met Him and interacted with Him socially or professionally but also because His sexual preferences, if any, are quite simply none of my business. You talk about people "wanting to be like Jesus", yet in another thread (relating to the Joyce Hatto débâcle) you clearly state your contempt for those pianists who don't have an individual sound and approach to their instrument - so whatever you may think of Rakhmaninov and Jesus, if you wouldn't expect other pianists to sound like the former because they are not him then why would you want to commend people to ape the latter when they are not Him either? That's not to say in either case that one would not follow the examples of Rakhmaninov and Jesus - very fine examples to follow in each case, surely?! - but that is not of itself necessarily indicative of a desire to "sound" like the former or "be" like the latter per se.

the bible speaks of homosexuals as 'dogs.'

Where? Some people like dogs anyway; do you consider dogs to be sinners? Are you in favour of cruelty to dogs? I'm glad that the Bible doesn't refer to homosexuals as cats; it doesn't, does it?

behavior which does not promote cleanliness of mind or body and does not produce offspring which God intended from the beginning.  so - you can be angry at me.

Thank you for the invitation, Susan, but I am not going to be angry with you and do not want to be angry with you. Cleanliness of mind and body means different things to different people in different societies, but this offspring production thing sounds suspicious to me in the way that you put it. Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but it almost sounds (in your present avowedly anti-homosexual context) as though you are suggesting not only that homosexuals are sinners because they do not procreate as God intended but also that heterosexuals and celibates who also do not procreate are likewise sinners to the extent that they choose not to procreate as God intended; if this is indeed what you mean, then I am a sinner because, although a non-homosexual, I do not have any children. Thanks, Susan; that really make me feel a whole lot better. Not.

but, i'm just saying what i read.  it is the same for liars, for adulterers, for people who use God's name in vain.  everyone has some kind of problem in this life they have to overcome.  it's not like God singles out homosexuality.  He puts it all under a category of 'sin.'  but some sins he says are agains the body - which is the TEMPLE OF GOD.  where our minds become dirty.  where our health becomes compromised.  He didn't intend this from the beginning.  how many truly healthy homosexuals do you know?  and for how long are they healthy?

Since you ask, I know quite a few, actually. Yes, there are promiscuous homosexuals just as their are promiscuous heterosexuals, but I happen to know one male homosexual couple who have been happily and healthily together for almost 45 years and are immensely kind and caring not only of one another but also of all their friends, especially womenfolk - and, for the record, one is a committed Roman Catholic and the other a Hindu. Can you just imagine the strain that certain followers of their respective faiths might have imposed upon such a relationship, on top of the already difficult situation where homosexuality was so heavily frowned upon in UK at the time they first got together? They have survived this - and not only their relationship but also their respective beliefs have survived it all intact. I don't go around moralising about other people and the manner in which they conduct their lives, but if I did so I would have the most appalling difficulty in convincing myself that these two are "sinners"...

rev 22: 15 'outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.'

What "dogs" are these? Real canines with four legs? Some category of human that is being addressed or referred to in contemptuous terms? Probably the latter - but where does this example specify that these "dogs" are homosexuals?

this is talking of unrepented sins - as far as i understand.  the thief on the cross probably lied and stole - but he asked JEsus for forgiveness and if he would change his heart.  this is how i understand the bible:  a person is homosexual for a long time - gets aids in their 30's or earlier - is sick for a few years and dies.  the penalty they paid by getting aids - is a punishment.

Susan, have you ANY idea how many heterosexuals have also contracted AIDS or are HIV positive? Do you not want to see an all-time cure for this terrible and terrifying disease? And if you really believe this particular disease to be some kind of punishment dispensed by God for the sins of those afflicted by it, then by what token to you distinguish it in this context from other major diseases such as leukæmia, multiple sclerosis or the ovarian cancer from which we are told (rightly or wrongly) that Joyce Hatto suffered?

but, if they repent (which God wants all people to repent and come to Him and be saved) then God has wiped away all their sins.

Oh, so even if a homosexual contracts AIDS, if he repents to God then he'll suddenly be cured? Why is it that the words "cloud" and "cuckoo" are coming together in my mind?

same for murderers, fornicators, liars.  but, if one dies in their sin - i really don't know what happens.  it would be sad if christians didn't say anything to anyone and kept the gospel to themselves.

It might be less so if some of them didn't take the gospel(s) as some kind of excuse for narrow-minded bigotry.

one last thing, too - is that i don't believe it is anyone's place to judge another.

So what exactly have you just been doing?!

these sins can be kept private and privately repented of.  i don't even think telling one's priest or minister is particularly important.  king david said ina prayer 'against YOU only have i sinned, done evil in Thy sight.'  so how much less should christians judge.  especially since they do not have information as to another persons private life. 

Susan, you're now trying to wriggle out of the worst of what you've just written by at least pretending to admit of the possibility of not assuming the very blinkered moralistic position that you've just been illustrating; it doesn'thelp your general credibility any.

There is a vein of unkindness and inflexibility running through much of what you wrote here. It seems from it that only procreating heterosexuals will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and even then only if they have duly repented all their other "sins" first. Should I, for example, start by repenting for the music that I've written? - and should I begin that repentance process by confessing to having set texts by atheists Frederick Delius and Norman Douglas in the finale of my string quintet?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

i happen to be int he minority about the direct consequence of aids to homosexuality, though - and figure it to be quite similar to the killings of spouses when adultery is found out.

If this is what you really think, I'm mightily relieved that you're in the minority here!

do you know how many adulterous relationships end in death?

No. Do you? Don't all relationships end in death eventually?

or severe financial and emotional strain.

All manner of pressures can exert either or both of those strain upon couples, adulterous or otherwise. I am not advicating adultery here, but I am also not advocating the kind of thinking that equates adultery with homosexuality and casts them both in the "sin" bin together without a care for the differences.

i think that having aids is similar to having any sexually transmitted disease and that one should be completely honest after living a sinful life (after repentance) with any following partner.  say a man/woman has aids or sexual disease.  it is not a loving act to give it to someone else.

Well, if you remove the moralistic "sin" reference from this, I agree with you, of course - but then the same can - and indeed should - surely be said of any other infectious God disease; why single out those diseases that are sexually transmitted if not to bolster your specious argument about the "sin" factor. Think of the number of children born with HIV; are they "sinners" too? Is it a case of "suffer the little children to come unto me as long as they aren't HIV positive"?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am intrigued by this. I have always been led to believe that AIDS tranmission rates were at their lowest amongst lesbians, lower in fact than amongst heterosexuals. Should I deduce that God is showing tacit approval of lesbianism?

You have a valid point here and I think that you are correct in your belief, but I realise that it is not me to whom you put that question, so let's wait to hear Susan's answer.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

dear alistair,

i realize you think that i am judging people - but if you were me and were asked a question - would you lie in your response or speak the words of the bible.  they are plain and true and do not waiver-  no matter the times or the political correctness.

now, rondes le sylphes brings in a point about homosexuality that is lesbianism.  i think it is a sign of our times that depravity has gone even tot he point of women attempting to have sex with other women.  how hard is that?  they don't have the sexual organs that men do - so how can they really have sex.  that is why they aren't getting it. but, they have social issues to deal with.  lesbianism is still cursed by being put out (as men were years ago for homosexuality) because it is more recent for women than men.  i don't think it's just the christian community - but men in general find lesbians repulsive.  why wouldn't they.  a woman is trying to be a man.  jsut as when homosexuals ridicule women by cross-dressing.  tell me that you feel this a natural creation of God?  you can see it doesn't work.  it's like trying to use the wrong tools for the job.

anyways - that's personal opinion and not judgement.  God judges all of us.  if i see a speck in your eye and there is a log in mine - then it's not really that important.  but, if you are a woman and have a log rolled into you by a lesbian - i think you have a problem.  why not use what God made.  a man.  that's what they're there for.  they have the tool.  it's like having a full refrigerator and going out and eating grass.  oh.  we don't need men.  of course we need men.  men are the only thing besides God that makes this world worth living. 

[ronde_des_sylphes]

now, rondes le sylphes brings in a point about homosexuality that is lesbianism.  i think it is a sign of our times that depravity has gone even tot he point of women attempting to have sex with other women. 

I think lesbianism is certainly not just a modern thing... Sappho?
Oh, btw, it happens in nature too, see bonobo apes; they're very fond of all types of sex.

women attempting to have sex with other women.  how hard is that?  they don't have the sexual organs that men do - so how can they really have sex. 

It would probably be better if I don't answer that 

i don't think it's just the christian community - but men in general find lesbians repulsive.  why wouldn't they.  a woman is trying to be a man.

It has been my experience that many men find a certain type of lesbian extremely attractive.

[ahinton]

dear alistair,

i realize you think that i am judging people

Dear Susan,

This is only because you will persist from time to time in writing profoundly judgemental statements and then hiding behind God who is, for you , the ultimate judge; it's not you, but that ultimate judge whose Word you interpret as being judgemental in the ways that you write about -and this is what makes such statements sounds as though you are yourself being judgemental.

but if you were me and were asked a question - would you lie in your response or speak the words of the bible.

I am not you and, if I were asked a question, i would try to be honest in my response and not "speak the words of the Bible" as part of my answer unless I believed that they might have some direct bearing on the question and/or my answer.

now, rondes le sylphes brings in a point about homosexuality that is lesbianism.  i think it is a sign of our times that depravity has gone even tot he point of women attempting to have sex with other women.

OUR times? Susan, are you expecting to be taken seriously here?!

how hard is that?  they don't have the sexual organs that men do - so how can they really have sex.  that is why they aren't getting it.

There are times, Susan, when you admit to not knowing something; since you do so here indirectly, may I suggest that you consult a few local lesbians for the answer to those questions?

but, they have social issues to deal with.  lesbianism is still cursed by being put out (as men were years ago for homosexuality) because it is more recent for women than men.

Rubbish on both counts!

i don't think it's just the christian community - but men in general find lesbians repulsive.  why wouldn't they.  a woman is trying to be a man.  jsut as when homosexuals ridicule women by cross-dressing.  tell me that you feel this a natural creation of God?  you can see it doesn't work.  it's like trying to use the wrong tools for the job.

All women should be heterosexual because God says so - or because Susan says that God says so. All those who are not are apparently "trying to be men", according to the gospel of Susan. Try telling those local lesbians that when you consult them...

anyways - that's personal opinion and not judgement.

It's a pretty unpalatable opinion, but it's nice to see that you're not being judgemental with it...

God judges all of us.

Dammit - I'm wrong after all; you ARE being judgemental again, through the mouthpiece of God.

if i see a speck in your eye and there is a log in mine

If you have a log in your eye it might just be because some disaffected local lesbian may have thrown abit of one of God's trees at you out of sheer impatient indignation...

- then why not use what God made.  a man.  that's what they're there for.  they have the tool.

That's it. Why not just "use" a man; that's what they're there for - to be used.

of course we need men.  men are the only thing besides God that makes this world worth living.

Just because they're worth "using"? and anyway, what about pianos?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

they don't have the sexual organs that men do - so how can they really have sex. 

I would love to answer that, I really would.

You are particularly funny today.

Thal

[prometheus]

Homosexuality is perfectly natural. It is observed in many animals. It is probably present in most animals.

Either god designed animals to be homosexual or god didn't design them at all.

[ahinton]

I would love to answer that, I really would.
[/quote
Then please don't let me stop you!

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

BTT (and ignoring several posts )

I promised not to enter into religious debates anymore. And i will keep my promise. BUT I don't ever will believe that Jesus has actually been found. I mean his body. I just can't believe that.

[soliloquy]

i think you are mistaken, soliloquy.  new orleans holds mardi gras parades which go past the french quarter - but are not confined to it.

I think you have very little knowledge of New Orleans and judging by this first sentence, you will procede to speak out of your ass and throw around statements that are supposed to be facts, but that indeed are incorrect, will vaguely cite the bible and then not give specific references or be able to back it up, and call homosexuals evil.  *reads down*  Wow; even more belligerent, offensive and stupid than I thought possible.  Are you calling "Mardi Gras" homosexual?  How can a party, an inanimate object, have a sexuality, and if you could explain that, could you please subsequently explain how and why it would prefer to have sex with other Mardi's of the same gender?  The french quarter is largely populated by homosexuals; it has a higher density of gays than San Francisco or the Highlands.  It has nothing to do with Mardi Gras, only cold hard facts concluded from consensuses.  Obviously what I was saying was a joke; it is only even more sad that the things you are saying are not only both more ridiculous than what I said, but you honestly believe are true.  It is not the gays that are disgusting or in offense to God, it is you.  It is absolutely you, as you are the one who is hating God's most valued creation based on something, that according to all scientific study, these (us) people have absolutely no control over.  Nearly all studies have concluded that homosexuality and bisexuality are caused by three main factors: genetics, environment and childhood, all things outside of the control of the individual.  Things that GOD decided for the person, yes?  Why would God make something he would hate?  Your assertions are offensive and hypocritical on every tangible level.

but, homosexuality is no different than some other sins where people abuse their bodies or others bodies (for instance many young boys are seduced intot he act and not willing participants in the beginning).  witchcraft (where human sacrifice is involved) and adultery being two examples.

There is a massive difference and I doubt even you are so completely blinded from common sense and logic by your dogma to see it.  Homosexuality does not hurt anyone; raping an innocent child does.  Who exactly is homosexuality being a detriment to?  People with particularly tight sphincters?  So you would equate a man holding another man in his arms lovingly to some fat 50 year old crack addict kidnapping a 4 year old boy and raping him in the ass?  How in the HELL did you come up with that?  I would also like for you to tell me what train of thought brought you to the conclusion that homosexuality is related to Paganism.  Are you saying that all homosexuals are Satanists?  Because while you may believe that, I will have to inform you from experience that they are most certainly not.  You also then go more in-depth and relate Pagan human sacrifice rituals to being gay, therefore you are asserting that the MURDER of someone is comparable to one man loving another.  Do you have any idea how incredibly bigoted and offensive that is?  That's like.... me saying Jews are evil and we should kill them all.  Or blacks are inferior to whites.  What you're doing is actually comparable to some of the most awful things in the history of the world, sweetheart.

if you read revelations - it says that these people (without repentance) will not enter the kingdom of God.

Yes it said that about Satanists.  But as we just went over, most gays aren't devil-worshipers.  I know a lot of fags and actually don't know any that are pagans.  I know a few that are Christians though; better Christians than you.  Tell me where in the Bible it says gays are evil.  And please, give me direct quotes.  Cite the passages around them too

if a christian repeats what the bible says - the hatred is put onto the christian.

You haven't said anything that was in the bible; you just assume that we don't know there is nowhere in the Bible that God speaks out against homosexuals.  Maybe... some of us have done research.

but, what if the christian has love in their heart towards the people they are speaking God's words to.  everyone sins.  it's not like it's some kind of surprise.

You have about as much love for non-christians as Hitler had for gay, paralyzed, Italian Jews.  Or at least that's what you consistently convey.

i bet that 90 % of congregations have sinners of every kind of sin in the commandments and statutes that they were addicted to or abused or whatever - even mentally.

Homosexuality is not a sin; tell me where ANYONE said it was, besides some hick bible-thumper.  Where in the actual BIBLE was being gay called a "sin"?

he was NOT a homosexual no matter how many people try to portray him as such.  you can believe what you want now - but you will be called to account for it later.

Nobody is calling God gay.  That is idiotic.  You obviously have misunderstood what I said, which btw, was a joke.  I guess you're just so paranoid and painfully defensive as you air-grab at your tiny little pathetic shreds of logic-defying, unprovable faith in something that goes against all modern science and knowledge that you have to throw your holy sh*t around every chance you get to try to keep yourself convinced that when you die, you get to float up to a big white cloudy place and sing in a choir for eternity.

the bible speaks of homosexuals as 'dogs.'  behavior which does not promote cleanliness of mind or body and does not produce offspring which God intended from the beginning.

Where specifically is that?  Please, quote the passage.  I will then look up research by people with doctorates that will rebut that, and make you look like an idiot.  Or more aptly, MORE of an idiot.  Btw, I know what passage you're talking about.  I know all of the ones you're referring to.  I just want you to actually post them so everyone here can finally see where God definitively says being gay is evil.  I want everyone to see.... the 600 ways all of those passages have been interpreted, and how most are no longer interpreted, and haven't been since the middle ages, to refer to homosexuality.

so - you can be angry at me.  but, i'm just saying what i read.

I am not angry.  I am just disgusted, and I honestly feel sorry for you that you can be so incredibly insensitive and ignorant, and feel vindicated in doing so.

it is the same for liars, for adulterers, for people who use God's name in vain.  everyone has some kind of problem in this life they have to overcome.

If I had to choose one single thing that is the most hateful in this entire bigoted rant, it would have to be this, where you insinuate that "being gay" is something any homosexual has to overcome and just get over.  First off, let me tell you, that that is absolutely impossible.  Secondly, I would like to tell you that most gays, if given the choice, would probably not want to go back to being straight.  Homosexuals can have relationships that are just as deep, meaningful and full of love as a man and a woman, believe it or not.  We're not ALL just hanging out at tacky bars trying to get laid twice a night by strangers; in fact, that is an extreme minority of the gay community, and is becoming less and less popular.

it's not like God singles out homosexuality.

You claim to speak the word of God, but now you say he is not singling out gays, yet you are?  What does that make you?  Are you misrepresenting the will of God?  False prophet?  So... I guess you're going to Hell.  Yes?

He puts it all under a category of 'sin.'

Biblical reference please.  Show us where he calls it "a sin".

but some sins he says are agains the body - which is the TEMPLE OF GOD.  where our minds become dirty.  where our health becomes compromised.  He didn't intend this from the beginning.  how many truly healthy homosexuals do you know?  and for how long are they healthy?

How completely ignorant.  Remember when I said you were going to speak out of your ass?  Well here you go.

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

There is a federal study on HIV/AIDS risk groups.  Look at the trends; if those trends continue, homosexuals will be, in 10 years, the LEAST, did you hear me... LEAST susceptible to HIV or AIDS.  Stay away from me straighty, I don't want to get HIV.

rev 22: 15 'outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.'  this is talking of unrepented sins - as far as i understand.  the thief on the cross probably lied and stole - but he asked JEsus for forgiveness and if he would change his heart.

Thanks for posting this I'm sure it's making everyone laugh.  Wow.  Have you ever played that game "connect-the-dots" way back when you were 4 years old?  Oh wait, I forgot who I'm speaking to.  Last night?  How in the HELL did you turn "dog" into "gay"?  Just because they both have three letters doesn't make it right.  Oh don't worry, I already know.  Because the Greek word for "dog" was also a slang term for a sodomite.  Not to say just the gay ones, but male/female anal playboy ones too.  It refered to the position in which they had sex.  Also, you are in the minority as far as interpreting that particular word to reference a homosexual.  Believe it or not, and here's the bomb shell, most theologists interpret the word "dog" in that passage, as "dog".

this is how i understand the bible:

You only pretend to understand the bible.

a person is homosexual for a long time - gets aids in their 30's or earlier - is sick for a few years and dies.  the penalty they paid by getting aids - is a punishment.

Again, I must point you towards the official studies that are available that will contradict the assumption that most gays get AIDS.  Tell me, why is God punishing hundreds of millions of children in 3rd world countries with HIV?  Did you ever maybe think that it's just a highly contagious, degenerative disease?  Also, if you had done any research into the history of AIDS, you would be able to find out why there was a pandemic of it in the gay community in the late eighties, but of course you haven't done any research on anything, so you stick to your antiquated, unscientific ideas that all fags have HIV.

but, if they repent (which God wants all people to repent and come to Him and be saved) then God has wiped away all their sins.  same for murderers, fornicators, liars.  but, if one dies in their sin - i really don't know what happens.  it would be sad if christians didn't say anything to anyone and kept the gospel to themselves.

Tell me when you're going to start spouting gospel and stop spouting bigoted, inaccurate, misquotes from the bible.  What everyone would like is for all of you fundamentalist hyper-christians to just shut up, because this isn't the dark ages.  We are supposed to tolerate and accept people, despite their religions, gender, sex, race, disabilities and sexual orientation.

one last thing, too - is that i don't believe it is anyone's place to judge another.

Then you should really shut the *** up.

i happen to be int he minority about the direct consequence of aids to homosexuality

That is because you happen to be completely wrong, as I already stated, and verified.


You know, us faggots have done a lot for you.  Do you like the Barber Violin Concerto?  How bout the Nutcracker Suite, or Water Music?  Are you a lover of art?  How bout the movies?  Have any friends that have an artificial heart?  If it wasn't for Alexander the Great you probably wouldn't be around- you'd be some mud person living in a hut somewhere.  Are you a big fan of poetry?  Plato, Michelangelo, Erasmus... all fruits, and some of the greatest thinkers in history.  And since we're on a piano forum, I think it's prudent to mention the fact that a huge number of the most famous pianists ever were gay, along with an equally overwhelming amount of our modern composers.



As a final note, I move for an immediate ban on pianistimo's IP address, due to her incredibly insensitive, bigoted remarks about homosexuals, her inability to not ruin any/all threads with irrelevent religious super-tangents, her inability to contribute anything to the forum, and her overwhelming disregard for the feelings and opinions of others.  In the past two months, she has probably caused more drama and problems on this forum than me and comme have in the past year, and she is only a tenth as entertaining while doing so, if that.  And I know I am FAR from the first person to want to see her go.  All in favor?

[pianistimo]

dear soliloquy,

i think it is you that judge and hate.  i have merely answered a question in which you already knew the response.  that is why you and others ask it.  so you can vent. 

but, the bible speaks many times of homosexuality negatively.  i am not surprising anyone.  try reading the story of lot.  genesis 19:4 'before they lay down (the two angels - at lots house) the men of the city surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to lot and said to him, 'where are the men who came to you tonight? bring them out so that we may have relations with them.'  but lot went out to them at the doorway , and shut the door behind him and said, 'please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.  now behold, i have two daughters... (now this seems very bizarre for him to say - but he realized that them having sex with men was worse than with women.  why?  because of the statutes dealing with a man not sleeping with a man as with a woman.  that is leviticus).

'only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.  but they said, stand aside.  furthermore, they said ' this one came in as an alien, and already HE IS ACTING LIKE A JUDGE (they told lot - because he was concerned for their spiritual welfare - that he was judging them); now we will treat you worse than them.  so they pressed hard against lot and came near to break the door.'

'but the men (angels) reached out their hands and brought lot into the house with them, and shut the door.  and they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway.'

it is after this that God says - he destroyed sodom because he couldn't find enough righteous people.  it is not me saying this - it is the bible.  if i speak these words to your glory and God's - why do you wish me harm?

leviticus 18:22 'you shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.'  right after that commandment - it is also admonished that one should not lie with an animal.  why in that order.  because it is unnatural.

[soliloquy]

soliloquy,

i think it is you that judge and hate.  i have merely answered a question in which you already knew the response.  that is why you and others ask it.  so you can vent.

Yes, I hate people who hate homosexuals just because they're gay.  Most people these days do.  They think people like you are ignorant, stupid and annoying.  But I am not the one telling you that the way you live your life is going to send you to hell; that is you.  You are the one venting at homosexuals on your "righteous" pedestal.  You are a sick person.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah
https://www.religioustolerance.org/hombibg191.htm
https://www.usbible.com/Sin/sodom_and_gomorrah.htm


I can supply you with literally probably another 200-300 essays that will refute you.  Only the extreme fundamentalist Christians still hold onto the belief that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexuality.  You are once again in the minority.



But please, try again

[pianistimo]

i never said that i judge them.  God does.  did you read leviticus?  no.  because you do not believe it - therefore it doesn't exist.  (the scripture). 

HOW OLD ARE YOU?  how much do you REALLY know about homosexuality.  do you know it can ruin your bum.  that later in life you'll probably be pooping your pants a lot?  do you care if you get or spread aids.  do you think this is a serious matter - health?

[soliloquy]

i never said that i judge them.  God does.  did you read leviticus?  no.  because you do not believe it - therefore it doesn't exist.  (the scripture). 

I have read the entire bible.  But it's not the only thing I've read, as it seems to be with you.  Now, where are some more quotes for me to rip apart with dissertations by people with Ph. D.'s?

[pianistimo]

people with phd's can have bum problems.

[xardas]

Pianistimo:

You always quote the bible and say not you tell this but the bible. But in fact you believe what the bible says. So why don't express your direct opinion instead of always refering to the bible?!

xardas

[gonzalo]

Homosexuality is perfectly natural. It is observed in many animals. It is probably present in most animals.

Either god designed animals to be homosexual or god didn't design them at all.

[thalbergmad]

do you know it can ruin your bum. 

So can a Chicken Madras with Bombay Potato's.

You are on form today. I am wetting myself with laughter.

Thal

[pianistimo]

dear xardas (ignoring thal completely),

yes.  i do tend to take the bible literally.  therefore, what God says goes.  i  mean - if i say something different - then who is right?  God or me?  i think God is always right.

Jesus said - i have come to do my Father's will. 

[soliloquy]

HOW OLD ARE YOU?  how much do you REALLY know about homosexuality.  do you know it can ruin your bum.  that later in life you'll probably be pooping your pants a lot?  do you care if you get or spread aids.  do you think this is a serious matter - health?

I like how you added that after I had responded.  Sneaky.


Seeing as how I'm gay, and seeing as how nearly everything you've said about gays is incorrect, it is not plausible that you would know more about homosexuality than me.  Also, you are incorrect about anal sex and "pooping your pants".  Scientific studies have shown that there is little to no long-term effect on the elasticity of the sphincter due to anal intercourse.  Also, as I showed you before, according to scientific research, you are more likely to contract HIV than I am, assuming you were single.  Although I can never envision anyone ever taking you out on a date the way you behave.

[thalbergmad]

dear xardas (ignoring thal completely),

You obviously did not ignore me completely, otherwise you would have not made that remark.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Although I can never envision anyone ever taking you out on a date the way you behave.

She has offered to take me to the Church disco.

Ladies and gentlemen, please take your partners for What a Friend We Have in Jesus.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Jesus said - i have come to do my Father's will. 

I wish he had done my fathers will.

It took ages to sort out.

Thal

[xardas]

pianistimo:

There were and are so many great homosexual pianists. Can you stand them or not? Should they burn in hell?

xardas

[gonzalo]

  i think God is always right.

You remind me of the horse in the story "Animal Farm", Boxer. He always said: "Napoleon(their leader) is always right", and do you know where he ended up? In the horse slaughterer.

[pianistimo]

is that a threat or something.  and about the church disco - i can't dance.  i'm sorry. it's just aporblem i've had since i broke my leg.  i tried to explain this to alistair.

in any case - no hard feelings.  (you can take this literally if you want).  anyways - i think you are all very special and i don't have any bad feelings about any of you.  we just think differently and agree to disagree. 

xardas, my favorite modern composer is poulenc.  people can compose beautiful music when they are given a talent for composition and music.  i consider their private lives private.  someone said samuel barber was.  i have no idea.  don't really care if he was or wasn't - but if he was still alive and asked me what i thought - i would preach the gospel to him.  same with poulenc.  but, with respect.  i think they were brilliant.

[ahinton]

is that a threat or something.  and about the church disco - i can't dance.  i'm sorry. it's just aporblem i've had since i broke my leg.  i tried to explain this to alistair.

And Alistair understood it; I think that the reference here, however, was to something which you would nevertheless do had you not had that most unfortunate accident.

in any
my favorite modern composer is poulenc.

"Modern" composer? He's been dead for almost half a century!

people can compose beautiful music when they are given a talent for composition and music.  i consider their private lives private.  someone said samuel barber was.

"Was" what? Ah, a homosexual! Of course! It's just that you didn't actually say so and it seemed as though we'd mercifully gotten off the well-and-truly off-topic subject of homosexuality. Yes, indeed he was a homosexual. So, as "soliloquy" correctly observed, were and are many other composers. That said, I do agree with you that their private lives are no concern of ours except possibly in cases where they are alive and we know them well, but that's not the main issue here, to mymind - which is that you wouldn't know that a composer was homosexual just by listening to his or her music. What's homosexual about Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony or Szymanowski's Third, for example?

i have no idea.

No, that's true...

don't really care if he was or wasn't - but if he was still alive and asked me what i thought - i would preach the gospel to him.

Asked you what you thought about what? Homosexuality? In the highly unlikely event that Samuel Barber would ever have asked you about that and all that you would have done was "preach the gospel" at him (just as you habitually do to the rest of us), I suspect that you'd have been shown the door pretty fast. I know that this is a hypothetical case, but has it not occurred to you that such a response would have been both presumptuous, patronising and rude?

It seems to me that, whatever the resposes may be outside this forum to the alleged discovery of Jesus, from my standpoint within this forum I am beginning to wish that the discovery had either not been "made" or at least not been made public...

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

you wouldn't know that a composer was homosexual just by listening to his or her music. What's homosexual about Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony or Szymanowski's Third, for example?

Hans Werner Henze on Schubert "Of course Schubert was homosexual.. you can hear it in his music". (I am not making this up btw - I always thought it was an interesting and controversial statement).

Perhaps pianistimo does not object to Poulenc's homosexuality on the grounds that some sources say he never consummated his relationship with Bernac? (Obviously I am joking; I am sure she has never heard this, and I have no idea how accurate this information is).

[ahinton]

Hans Werner Henze on Schubert "Of course Schubert was homosexual.. you can hear it in his music". (I am not making this up btw - I always thought it was an interesting and controversial statement).

...and it is one that I've heard before - and Henze has not been the only person to make that kind of statement in more gerneral terms. What Henze omits to tell us is how he hears this in Schubert's music - i.e. what it is about the way Schubert organises his pitches, rhythms, structures, etc. that marks him out as a homosexual and whether that tells us anything concrete about the way in which other homosexual composers write and wrote their music. Perhaps Henze was joking! - Schubert, after all, has come in for a fair bit of this kind of speculation other than from Henze himself in recent years. If we are to take it seriously, however, I have to say that I do not buy it at all, since there is absolutely no incontrovertible scientific proof of any such thing either in Schubert's case or in that of any other homosexual composer, any more than there is such proof that it is possible to detect from music itself whether it was written by a woman or a man. Whether neuroscientific research will ever develop to the point of being able to tell us anthying specific about either remains open to question, but even if it does, it's unlikely to be any time soon. In any case, what kinds of conclusion would we draw - or, more properly, what kinds of expectation ought we to have - about music by bisexual composers?

Any thoughts on that? (not that it has anything whatsoever to do with Jesus, lost found or otherwise, of course, so maybe in a new thread...)

Best,

Alistair

Perhaps pianistimo does not object to Poulenc's homosexuality on the grounds that some sources say he never consummated his relationship with Bernac? (Obviously I am joking; I am sure she has never heard this, and I have no idea how accurate this information is).

[xardas]

Well... I just want to ask pianistimo a last question before i won't write anymore in religion debattes. ;-)

pianistimo:

You said the hurricane in Alabama was a punishment of god. But what do you think of terror like 9/11 or similar? Is this a indirect punishment of god too or not?

But please don't refer to the bible! I want to hear your personal opinion, not one, that was once written by someone who thought he sees god in visions or similar.

xardas

[pianistimo]

i was going to avoid answering anything today because penguinlover reminded me that Jesus himself probably wouldn't be on the internet (i'm not talking about today, literally).  ok.  you all may think i'm completely loony - but i want to make it clear that i have no desires to cause dismay or trouble to people by what i say.  first of all, i want to say that i do understand the distinction between people who live law abiding lives and choose to be homosexual.

what i don't like is when young boys are seduced at school by a teacher or at the playground or wherever and don't literally make their own informed choice and decision.  the reason i worry is because i, too, have a son - and that is why i feel so strongly about this.  i hope you can see the distinction between freedom of choice and cases where people are criminally minded.  same, as prometheus pointed out - that women can molest just the same - and seduce younger boys.  i just think that is wrong.  i think that this society promotes young people to lose their holiness and virginity for no reason at all excepting that an older person wants to abuse them.

i truly do think that people's private lives are none of my business.  if a composer such as poulenc or barber were close friends and ASKED - i would answer.  but, not before asked.  i have been asked many questions - and so i answer as best as i can.  don't claim to speak for God - but i just think that the bible is very open about what God says and if there is scripture available - i say 'why not read it?'  just as with music - you have different interpretations.  some are far from the urtext.  i consider the bible the urtext.

xardas - interesting that you bring out the idea of 9/11.  yes.  i think that God allowed this 'punishment' because the twin towers represented a financial system.  a world financial system which is not what you think it is.  it didn't represent usa anymore - it represents that we are blending in with a system that is 'anti-God' although we don't recognize it anymore.  it's called 'babylon' in the bible.  it is called corrupt.  it is called a '***.'  why?  because the world gives to it - instead of the poor who are pleading for help all over the earth.  the downtrodden.  the people who really need the money aren't getting it.  why?  greed. 

in a true world system that is fair (with GOD) -  people would still work and be motivated - but for the idea of service to others and service to God.  they wouldn't be self-serving.  that is what i believe.  also, i think that revelations prophecies more to come.  did you know that George Washington had a vision in which the usa had three major crisis?  the first two have already happened and the last one mirrors what the bible says will happen. that a 'beast' power (world ruling power) will cause ALL (every nation) to worship him and that people will not be able to buy or sell without this mark.

the twin towers is not the onlything 'going down.'  our whole economic system is collapsing.  we are recognizing it already.  we are being subsumed.  our economy.  our military might.  everything.  it's going.  we will be servants to another power for a temporary period of time.  called the tribulation.  americans don't want anything but democracy - but we can't sustain it.  why?  because we are in a time of punishment.  God is allowing this natural chain of events (which He prophecied ) to happen exactly as fortold.  you don't have to believe me.  just watch it happen.

[pianistimo]

the first two perils of George Washington's vision were of the revolutionary war, and then the civil war between the north and south.  i will get the site right now where he spoke of the last 'peril.'  www.geocities.com/anfortas.geo/gwvision.html

now, the reason i think everyone should be right with God - is that if he returns very soon - as he promises - then we should be bold and await Him with no remorse.  the prophet daniel prophecied our times in daniel 10:11 'now i have come (the angel gabriel) to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people (the peoples of all the tribes of israel - not just judah - as these people were to become NATIONS according to the promises of God to abraham) in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.'

daniel 11:24 'in a time of tranquility he will enter the richest parts of the realm, and will will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty, and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but only for a time.  and, he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the south with a large army; so the king of the south will mobilize an extremely large and mighty army for war; but he will not stand, for schemes will be devised against him. and those who et his choice food will destroy him, and his army will overflow, but many will fall down slain.  as for both kings (north/south), their hearts will be intent on evil, and they will speak lies to each other at the same table; but it will not succeed, for the end is still to come at the appointed time.

then he will return to his land with much plunder (the king of the north); but his heart will be set against the holy covenant (jerusalem), and he will take action and then return to his own land.  (we know from other prophecies that jerusalem will be divided) at the appointed time he will return and come into the south, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.  for ships of kittim (asia?) will come against him; therefore he will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action ; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.'

as i read this - it reminds me of how a lot of world dictators are.  they first appear very genuine about giving everyone freedom and good things - but later take away whatever they do not like.  in this case - christianity.  he will come back enraged because jerusalem is a 'heavy stone' that causes stumbling for all the nations.  everyone loses because of it.

'and forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress (jerusalem), and do away with the regular sacrifices (sabbaths/holydays) and they will set up the abomination of desolation.  and by smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly against the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action.  and those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity, and plunder, for many days.  now when they fall they will be granted a little help, and many will join with them in hypocrisy.  (God uses trials to test our faith and see how much we believe in Him).  and some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge, and make them pure, until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time.

so what we are talking here - is a sort of 'peace in the middle east' and then all hell breaks loose because the armies that surround jerusalem and meet at armageddon will be there to 'make peace' but suddenly fight amongst themselves.

now, before this - as washington's vision pointed out - this king of the north will also enter the beautiful land (jerusalem) to make peace, and many COUNTRIES will fall (He sets himself up to make the peace and no other country will be allowed to); but these will be rescued out of his hand; edom, moab and the foremost of the sons of ammon.  then he will stretch out his hand against OTHER COUNTRIES, and the land of egypt will not escape.  but he will gain control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of egypt; and libyans and ethiopians will follow at his heels.  but rumors from the east and from the north will disturb him, and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many.  and he will pitch the tents of his royal pavillion between the seas and the beautiful holy mountain (jerusalem); yet he will come to his end and noone will help him.

now at that time michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise.  and there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.'

[ahinton]

first of all, i want to say that i do understand the distinction between people who live law abiding lives and choose to be homosexual.

You can only have a "distinction" between two or more things, whereas you have presented only one here. Did you mean "between people who live law abiding lives and those who choose to be homosexual"? If not, say so and explain what you meant instead. If so, however, you would be suggesting not only that homosexuality is a choice issue but also that homosexuals are unlawful, the first of which is incorrect and the second of which is correct only in certain jurisdictions.

what i don't like is when young boys are seduced at school by a teacher or at the playground or wherever and don't literally make their own informed choice and decision.  the reason i worry is because i, too, have a son - and that is why i feel so strongly about this.  i hope you can see the distinction between freedom of choice and cases where people are criminally minded.  same, as prometheus pointed out - that women can molest just the same - and seduce younger boys.  i just think that is wrong.  i think that this society promotes young people to lose their holiness and virginity for no reason at all excepting that an older person wants to abuse them.

OK, so as long as you recognise that sexual abuse of minors is committed by both women and men as well as by heterosexuals and homosexuals and that you do not single out any one of these for especial contempt above all the others, that's fine.

i truly do think that people's private lives are none of my business.

I agree with you and feel the same way.

if a composer such as poulenc or barber were close friends and ASKED - i would answer.  but, not before asked.

Ah - that's different from what you wrote before - but then even so you said that you'd quote scripture at them in your answer and I still maintain that you'd have gotten short shrift from them had you done this.

i have been asked many questions - and so i answer as best as i can.  don't claim to speak for God - but i just think that the bible is very open about what God says and if there is scripture available - i say 'why not read it?'

But why would any of this have anything to do with answering Poulenc and Barber's hypothetical questions to you about their homosexuality?

just as with music - you have different interpretations.  some are far from the urtext.  i consider the bible the urtext.

Ah - maybe this is where you're going wrong, then! You are an Untext-fstishist!

xardas - interesting that you bring out the idea of 9/11.  yes.  i think that God allowed this 'punishment' because the indication of the twin towers represented.  money.  a system.  a world financial system which is not what you think it is.

Oh, so the oil-rich countries behind it haven't any money, then; I see it all now.

it didn't represent usa anymore - it represents that we are blending in with a system that is 'anti-God' although we don't recognize it anymore.  it's called 'babylon' in the bible.

The Twin Towers are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

in a true world system that is fair (with GOD) -  people would still work and be motivated - but for the idea of service to others and service to God.  they wouldn't be self-serving.  that is what i believe.  also, i think that revelations prophecies more to come.  did you know that George Washington had a vision in which the usa had three major crisis?  the first two have already happened and the last one mirrors what the bible says will happen. that a 'beast' power (world ruling power) will cause ALL (every nation) to worship him and that people will not be able to buy or sell without this mark.

Washington said all that, did he? Goodness me! I really must bone up on my Anerican history...

the twin towers is not the onlything 'going down.'  our whole economic system is collapsing.  we are recognizing it already.  we are being subsumed.  our economy.  our military might.  everything.  it's going.  we will be servants to another power for a temporary period of time.

Not necessarily. The American economic system is not as exception in this regard as you appear to believe. Almost every country is in sever debt to almost every other.

americans don't want anything but democracy - but we can't sustain it.  why?  because we are in a time of punishment.  God is allowing this natural chain of events (which He prophecied ) to happen exactly as fortold.  you don't have to believe me.  just watch it happen.

You just won't let it rest, will you?! Some of the suicide bombers believe that they have and serve a "God", too; which one of these Gods "allowed" the 9/11 bombings and why did He "allow" the Twin Towers operations to be successfully carried out but the other two largely to fail? Incompetence? Indecision? Defiance? Something else?...

And you still haven't answered any of my questions...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

the first two visions of George Washington were of the revolutionary war, and then the civil war between the north and south.  i will get the site right now where he spoke of the last 'peril.'  www.geocities.com/anfortas.geo/gwvision.html

Did GW really speak of his vision of
"what the bible says will happen. that a 'beast' power (world ruling power) will cause ALL (every nation) to worship him and that people will not be able to buy or sell without this mark"?
I rather suspect that he might have been marched off to the funny farm if he had. In any case, how come you're so sure that whatever that third vision may have been about has not already happened also? Katrina, maybe?

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

thanks, alistair, for helping me write what i meant to say.  the distinction between those people who are homosexual and choose to keep their private lives private - and are law abiding citizens vs. those who are not.  i realize laws of the land vary from state to state and country to country.  if two people are truly intent on having  arelationship - who is to stop them?  i think that religious freedom and civil liberties stand on the same platform.  we vote and see what is allowed and what is not.

i do not advocate force or anything like that.  and, in fact, feel that i have always been neutral about asking anyone else to believe exactly as i do. if that were the case - we would not have a democracy or freedom.  what i do believe is that we are 'losing our way.'  that is a religious issue that blends the biblical principles of freedom based on the 'inalienable rights' of people to life liberty and happines.  i don't think homosexuality really brings true life, liberty, and happiness - but that is my perception - based on biblical teaching about a man 'not lying with a man as with a woman.'  it used to be a law in old testament times - but is not the law today excepting marital rights - which is now disputed. 

judges have a very hard time because what is being promoted is not democracy of past laws based on the constitution but on international laws now.  who actually judges by the constitution anymores?  it has so many revisions and changes.  if people don't like something - they change it.  law really isn't law anymore.  it is whim.  it doesn't have a sound basis like the bible does.  ok. everyone's angry again.

alistair, about george washington's vision - i believe that revelations speaks of this 'horde' that gw saw in his vision coming across the atlantic and decimating populations.  this 'beast' power will be against christian nations and christianity itself.  rev. 13:6 'and he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and his tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.  and it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  and all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb(Christ) who has been slain.'

'if anyone has an ear, let him hear.  if anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed.  here is ther perseverance of the saints.'

so - we see that this is talking about a WORLD war (every tribe and people and tongue and nation).

but, they are being gathered together because Jesus is coming back and 'every eye will see him.' the best part is last because handel's messiah is right.  He will come in POWER and majesty.  rev. 19:6 'hallelujah, for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns.'   reigns over what?  the earth!

[ahinton]

thanks, alistair, for helping me write what i meant to say.  the distinction between those people who are homosexual and choose to keep their private lives private - and are law abiding citizens vs. those who are not.

In other words, a distinction between law-abiding citizens and non-law-abiding citizens regardless of whether either is homosexual.

if two people are truly intent on having  arelationship - who is to stop them?

Fortunately not one who declares that the nature of their relationship - i.e. homosexuality - is "evil"...

...the 'inalienable rights' of people to life liberty and happines.  i don't think homosexuality really brings true life, liberty, and happiness - but that is my perception - based on biblical teaching about a man 'not lying with a man as with a woman.'

It wouldn't bring it to you or to me, even though your perception is based on your interpretationo f biblical teaching whereas mine is based only upon the fact that I am not disposed tht way...

judges have a very hard time because what is being promoted is not democracy of past laws based on the constitution but on international laws now.  who actually judges by the constitution anymores?  it has so many revisions and changes.  if people don't like something - they change it.  law really isn't law anymore.  it is whim.  it doesn't have a sound basis like the bible does.  ok. everyone's angry again.

No. All laws have permanently been in a state of flux and development in the hope of being approariate to the circumsntaces of the time and place. Yes, there are more laws now than there used to be and there is more legal complexity than there used to be, but then that is because there is more complexity in all aspects of life than there used to be; that doesn't make laws a "whim".

alistair, about george washington's vision - i believe that revelations speaks of this 'horde' that gw saw in his vision coming across the atlantic and decimating populations.  this 'beast' power will be against christian nations and christianity itself.  rev. 13:6 'and he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and his tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.  and it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  and all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb(Christ) who has been slain.'

GW doesn't get much of a look in here in your avowed explanation of this apparent vision of his - it's all the Bible again (why am I surprised?!)

'if anyone has an ear, let him hear.  if anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed.  here is ther perseverance of the saints.'

so - we see that this is talking about a WORLD war (every tribe and people and tongue and nation).

but, they are being gathered together because Jesus is coming back and 'every eye will see him.' the best part is last because handel's messiah is right.  He will come in POWER and majesty.  rev. 19:6 'hallelujah, for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns.'   reigns over what?  the earth!

I wasn't talking about anything of the sort; I was simply asking you a question about what George Washington actually said about the visions that he had. Even if and when you answer that, you'll probably be unable to answer what substance he'd been ingesting into his system before he had those visions, but let's not worry overmuch about that until and unless you've answered the first bit!

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

george washington's vision dealt with three perils to the usa.  the 'republic' - as it is called in the vision - but God's unified world will not be a republic or democracy or anything like that.  i think that it will be a theocracy.  so, george washington - when watching this vision could come up with any sort of interpretation that he figured would fit (although the being that gave him the dream also gave him the interpretation) - but he didn't see our very day!  just as the prophet john could not see his dreams (revelations) come to pass.

but, what i am saying - is we are SEEING with our very eyes everything that was prophesied to happen - happen.  it's happening right now.  jerusalem is definately a stumbling stone - just as Jesus Christ is.  people are not realizing this is a spiritual war - between satan and God and satan is using some people as pawns.  they will not be in the kingdom of God.

we are told not to worship the 'beast' or one world system.  why?  because it is anti-Christ.  it is not unifying to welcome Christ back. it will fight him at the time He returns because the spirit behind this one world system is satan.  He knows his 'time is short.'  so - we are just kind of like sideliners - getting pulled into a battle beyond our understanding or scope of belief.  UNLESS -we pray.  then we can understand why it is happening at least.  and that this final battle will end.  it says in revelations this battle will grow worse and worse for 3 1/2 years. then, Jesus returns.  the romans tried to keep their one world system going through military means - but fights would break out here and there and disrupt the peace.  the final battle will be between ALL the nations of the earth. zephaniah 1:14:

'near is the great day of the Lord, near and coming very quickly; listen, the DAY OF THE LORD!  in it the warrior cries out bitterly.  a day of wrath is that day, a day of trouble and distress, a day of destruction and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of trumpet and battle cry against fortified cities and the high corner towers...'

then, we see the futility of fighting and killing and war.  Jesus Christ is about the opposite. about peace and life and love.  He will eradicate war and killing and sufferring by returning in great strength to bring peace.  peace is best given by someone who is strong enough to defeat those who bring war.  isaiah 51:11 'so the ransomed of the Lord will return, and come with joyful shouting to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads.  they will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.'