Jesus has been found.

[zheer]

  The remains of Jesus have been found in a coffin under an apartment block, people believe that if that is indeed the remains of Jesus, then Jesus was not the sun of God, since Jesus came back to life in a physical form prior to returning to God. Is Christianity  fake? discuss.

[gonzalo]

Is Christianity  fake?

Was there ever any doubt?

[zheer]

Was there ever any doubt?

  I don't know but it is'nt going to go down well with a lot of people.

[prometheus]

All forms of religion are forms of superstition.

Every religious person recognizes this, except when it comes to their own faith. Somehow their faith is always holy and sacred.

With all the splinters of wood that are supposed to have been part of Jesus's his cross we can build several arks.

[johnny-boy]

  The remains of Jesus have been found in a coffin under an apartment block, people believe that if that is indeed the remains of Jesus, then Jesus was not the sun of God, since Jesus came back to life in a physical form prior to returning to God. Is Christianity  fake? discuss.

Maybe Jesus was given a new body when He returned.

John

[thalbergmad]

With all the splinters of wood that are supposed to have been part of Jesus's his cross we can build several arks.

Indeed, and with all the holy nails, we would have enough to hold it all together.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

  The remains of Jesus have been found in a coffin under an apartment block, people believe that if that is indeed the remains of Jesus, then Jesus was not the sun of God, since Jesus came back to life in a physical form prior to returning to God. Is Christianity  fake? discuss.

I had read that some coffins had been found, but was not aware of any human remains.

Were the any tambourines found with the corpses?

Thal

[pianistimo]

i can't believe a thread like this relies soley on the body of Jesus of which there is absolutely no historical evidence of the body being found.  How about his POWER.  He holds the entire universe in his hands - and yet people had nothing except a donkey for Him to ride into Jerusalem the first time.  when He makes His entrance the next- He wILL be KING.  just as handel's messiah says.  Prince of PEACE.

don't you want peace, zheer?

[johnny-boy]

This would be no more proof than if they found the coffin empty and stated "see, Jesus did return". Poor logic both ways.

John

[pianistimo]

zheer, what do you think will happen to your body when you die?  yes.  we are physical. we will disintegrate.  but, if God says there will be a judgement day - and his only Son has been ressurrected as a 'firstfruit' - then if we live or die - at his return we will also be ressurrected JUST LIKE HIM.  how else could there be a judgement day? if there is no God there is no justice.  do as you please because nothing matters.  (i don't believe this).

have you seen the devastation from the tornados in alabama and the mid-west?  do you remember the bible story of Job.  God allowed Satan to test job.  we, as americans are being tested.  why?  to see if we will turn back to God and repent for our sins and be right before him.  He wants all of us to be in his kingdom - and will use whatever means are necessary for ALL TO BE SAVED.  He died so that 'the world through Him might be saved.'

also, God may be giving iraq some things to think about (that He sees their pain).  That God acknowledges injustice wherever and by whomever it is done.  same for iraq and iran towards the usa.  there are elements withing a government that are much different in thoughts than the average citizen that just wants to live in peace and get through a normal life.  God is showing us that if we want peace - we have to learn from him and not governments of man.

i don't think saved is a simple word.  I think it means that He has some jobs for us inthe future.  matthew states that he is like a husbandman of a vineyard.  other places refer to Him as a bridegroom.  That he has wonderful things awaiting people who listen NOW and return to Him and worship him.  no matter the circumstances.  that is how faith is TESTED.  if everything goes well 100% of the time in our lives...our faith would not be tested.

[thalbergmad]

i can't believe a thread like this relies soley on the body of Jesus of which there is absolutely no historical evidence of the body being found.  How about his POWER. 

There is not much evidence for that either.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

zheer, what do you think will happen to your body when you die?  yes.  we are physical. we will disintegrate.  but, if God says there will be a judgement day - and his only Son has been ressurrected as a 'firstfruit' - then if we live or die - at his return we will also be ressurrected JUST LIKE HIM.  how else could there be a judgement day? if there is no God there is no justice.  do as you please because nothing matters.  (i don't believe this).

have you seen the devastation from the tornados in alabama and the mid-west?  do you remember the bible story of Job.  God allowed Satan to test job.  we, as americans are being tested.  why?  to see if we will turn back to God and repent for our sins and be right before him.  He wants all of us to be in his kingdom - and will use whatever means are necessary for ALL TO BE SAVED.  He died so that 'the world through Him might be saved.'

also, God may be giving iraq some things to think about (that He sees their pain).  That God acknowledges injustice wherever and by whomever it is done.  same for iraq and iran towards the usa.  there are elements withing a government that are much different in thoughts than the average citizen that just wants to live in peace and get through a normal life.  God is showing us that if we want peace - we have to learn from him and not governments of man.

i don't think saved is a simple word.  I think it means that He has some jobs for us inthe future.  matthew states that he is like a husbandman of a vineyard.  other places refer to Him as a bridegroom.  That he has wonderful things awaiting people who listen NOW and return to Him and worship him.  no matter the circumstances.  that is how faith is TESTED.  if everything goes well 100% of the time in our lives...our faith would not be tested.

You have really lost it this time.

Thal

[zheer]

- and his only Son

 
have you seen the devastation from the tornados in alabama and the mid-west? 

  You see Jesus was not the only son of God, recently i spoke to 2 Christian activists, they believe that all othe religion are false, so as a Muslim i was suprised since we believe in Jesus as a son of God.

      The Alabama tornado was the act of Man, Global Warming.

[moi_not_toi]

Go Gnostics!
Jesus died and was released from the inevitable fact of life: death.
Since he's already dead, he doesn't have to worry about death nemore!

So it's only natural that you find his body. His SOUL was released, not his body. That gotta stay here.

[ahinton]

just as handel's messiah says.  Prince of PEACE.

Handel was a German whom the British (or rather more properly the English) adopted as one of their musical sons (of which they had dire need in those dark long-post-Elizabethan days when Britain could really boast some marvellous composers). Jesus wasn't a German or an adopted Brit. He was from what we now call the Middle East (or what I would call south-east Europe)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

  You see Jesus was not the only son of God, recently i spoke to 2 Christian activists, they believe that all othe religion are false, so as a Muslim i was suprised since we believe in Jesus as a son of God.

Whilst as a non-Muslim and non-Christian I should perhaps keep my mouth shut here, I cannot resist remarking that there are all too few Muslims like you who - like others that I know - retain a deep respect for Christ and His teachings; not all Muslims believe as you do, but there is no bout that, as you say, some of them do.

The Alabama tornado was the act of Man, Global Warming.

Or a result of irregular sunspot activity - we can't be so sure, really...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

recently i spoke to 2 Christian activists, they believe that all othe religion are false

That is sad.

Thal

[counterpoint]

 but, if God says there will be a judgement day - and his only Son has been ressurrected as a 'firstfruit'

God's only Son  - I do not understand, what this statement means.

What is it, that the child of Mary makes to the son of God?

In some sense, we are all children of God, since if it's true that he is the creator of all beings, he is the father of all beings. But he is not the father of Jesus in a genetical sense. I never understood, how one can say, God is the father of Jesus in this sense.

[mikey6]

PER-LEASE! where is the proof that it's the true Jesus Christ? (well, the one the bible accords to) They also said that Jesus was a very common name back then so until anything further is proved there's nothing to discuss!

[johnny-boy]

PER-LEASE! where is the proof that it's the true Jesus Christ? (well, the one the bible accords to) They also said that Jesus was a very common name back then so until anything further is proved there's nothing to discuss!

And so was "Mary".

[pianowelsh]

I had to ask myself it was April 1st when I heard this - its so off the wall. What informed person would claim to have credible DNA of Jesus Christ (lets be specific as there are many folks called Jesus particularly in that area). We cant trust DNA 50 years old let alone DNA that they wonder might possibly have belonged to jesus some 2000 years ago.  It wasnt even found where he was supposed to be buried (which is well documented) and quite how would they extract DNA if as scripture teaches his body rose from the dead.. cant get DNA from nowhere?!?  Film directors should stick at what they are good at - directing films not trying to be scientific researchers and theologians!

[pianistimo]

thanks for the correction, zheer.  actually, the bible does say 'the only begotten Son' - meaning that he was spiritually as well as physically begotten by the Holy Spirit.  eternal.  everlasting.  having no beginning or end.  He was not conceived by physical sperm - but by the Holy Spirit.  how can he have been produced in Mary's womb.  i don't know.  but, God can do whatever creative things He wants to.  if He preexisted as 'the Word' then He was not a created being - but allowed Himself to enter the world on our behalf and become our savior.

i cannot explain mysteries.  but, in the bible, Jesus is begotten by a VIRGIN.  so she cannot have been with any man.  therefore - impossible that jesus HAD dna.  He was God/Man  - incarnate.  everlasting.  from everlasting TO everlasting.  impossible for us to comprehend.  we know He was 'above the angels' - and the angels from various times have also appeared 'as man.'  we know He sufferred - so he was made in the image of man but committed no sin and was ressurrected incarnate.  He was the living Son of God.  a representation of perfection.

also, there are places where Jesus calls us 'children.'  if we are children we are also heirs.  this is said in several places of the bible.  He even goes so far in psalms as to call US sons of God if we believe.  IF we believe.  there are also 'sons of the devil.'  why does he use the word sons?  because a son follows his Father's footsteps.  we have to follow Jesus Christ and not a speculation.  Jesus is real.  His power is real.  someday we will see Him as He is. 

the distinction of Father/Son is not a physical one as we know it - but a spiritual condition where they coexist 'as one.'  just as when people are married and take the name of the other person.  you have one name 'God.'  this means a joint Father/Son - and there is no other begotten son that shares God's glory YET.  That is how I understand the bible.  now, the koran i really don't know about.  i believe that they say Jesus was only a prophet.  so either you are believing Christian friends and the bible - or the koran which does NOT say that Jesus was any more than muhammad.  a prophet.  is this correct?

[pianistimo]

something else - is that in the bible - there are warnings about 'false Christs.'  that He will be 'found' here and there by speculation - but that 'every eye' will see him when He actually does return. 

in the meantime - we are told in matthew to pray to God as 'our Father.'  now, why would Christ tell us to pray 'our Father, who art in heaven - hallowed be Thy name...'  is He allowing us to call His Father OUR Father?  'therefore do not be like them; for your father knows what you need, before you ask Him...' (matt. 6:8 ) speaking of the gentiles who pray to false gods with 'meaningless repetition.'  just because we are praying does not mean we are praying to the correct God.  we have to focus our heart and attentions to the TRUE God.  He is full of power, glory, light - and created the universe.  there are many false gods that have no real power at all excepting 'magic.'  mystery that is revealed by satan.  but, there is a higher mystery of the true God which is more power than imaginable but used for GOOD.  for salvation.  for joy.  for hope. for peace. 

if you are wondering which God you are worshipping - remember the scripture 'test the spirits ...'  in this, it is mentioned that if anyone does not believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and was ressurrected to glory - they have no part in the kingdom of God (in which JEsus will be KING of this kingdom).  all must pass before Jesus Christ and acknowledge their need for His saving grace.

ps the book of john (john 3:5) explains it this way - Jesus speaking:  'truly, truly, i say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  do not marvel that i said to you, 'you must be born again.'  the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from or where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'

[soliloquy]

The Alabama tornado was the act of Man, Global Warming.

What?  XD  I believe in global warming but that's idiotic.  I live in Alabama; in fact, right now I'm in a little place called Jemison that was literally wiped off the map by an F5 in 1937.


So now we're blaming any/all weather on global warming?  Because like... there weren't thunderstorms or hurricanes or tornados 50 years ago, right?  =/



lol

[zheer]

So now we're blaming any/all weather on global warming?  Because like... there weren't thunderstorms or hurricanes or tornados 50 years ago, right?  =/



lol

   Yes, Global warming is te biggest threat known to man kind today, America, China,Europe are largly to balme. I dislike the fact that people always say O God is doing this because he loves us or wants to teach us a lesson, well thats just away of justifying things, instead of looking at oneself and saying how can i make a change, since we are responsible.
     To be honest when much of Britten is under water and America lookes like Berlin after second world war i wont be the one looking idiotic.

[prometheus]

We cant trust DNA 50 years old...

I think that depends on it. Surely any very old sample will be degraded. But if you have several degraded samples then you can reconstruct it.

And even if that is not possible, in theory you can fill in the gaps with someone else's DNA.

So as long as we have the 'god part' of Jesus's DNA we can clone Jesus a million times and he will still be part of the uuuh trinity...

[zheer]

the koran which does NOT say that Jesus was any more than muhammad.  a prophet.  is this correct?

  To cut a long story short Jesus like Muhammad were Gods messangers. Muhammad Could'nt read or write till the age of 40 when his wife died and he spent much of his time in a cave in meditation.In that cave he heard Gods voice and he began to write the Koran, the rest is history. However Jesus was born from  Virgin mary ,when he died he came back to life in physical form then returned to God.

[zheer]

So as long as we have the 'god part' of Jesus's DNA we can clone Jesus a million times and he will still be part of the uuuh trinity...

  Sure, but you can not clone SPIRIT or SOUL since we are more than flesh and bone.

[ahinton]

He was not conceived by physical sperm - but by the Holy Spirit.  how can he have been produced in Mary's womb.  i don't know.

If you "don't know" that, how come you are so convinced that He was "not conceived by human sperm?

i cannot explain mysteries.  but, in the bible, Jesus is begotten by a VIRGIN.  so she cannot have been with any man.  therefore - impossible that jesus HAD dna.

Yet, as you yourself suggest, His conception and birth were of a conventional nature. I'm not surprised that you "cannot explain" this!

also, there are places where Jesus calls us 'children.'

Not any place I've ever been; He hasn't called me anything (though he might have a name or three up His sleeve if He were tempted)...

if we are children we are also heirs.

Not unless someone somewhere leaves us something...

Jesus is real.  His power is real.  someday we will see Him as He is.

I think that it is almost certain that Jesus WAS real; as to His "power" and "seeing Him as He is", I think that those who respond to what we understand of His teaching can recognise the former and do the latter already...

the distinction of Father/Son is not a physical one as we know it - but a spiritual condition where they coexist 'as one.'  just as when people are married and take the name of the other person.

They don't do that in Canada, do they?

now, the koran i really don't know about.

Then why not read it?

i believe that they say Jesus was only a prophet.  so either you are believing Christian friends and the bible - or the koran which does NOT say that Jesus was any more than muhammad.  a prophet.  is this correct?

You've loaded the dice even before you've picked up a copy of the book - that is to say against the notion that, whatever any other religion may claim, Christianity is the only one that can boast as its figurehead "the Son of God". Pardon me, but isn't this attitude of superiority one of sheer Christian arrogance? I wonder what Christ would have thought about that...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

What?  XD  I believe in global warming but that's idiotic.  I live in Alabama; in fact, right now I'm in a little place called Jemison that was literally wiped off the map by an F5 in 1937.


So now we're blaming any/all weather on global warming?  Because like... there weren't thunderstorms or hurricanes or tornados 50 years ago, right?

Yes, I do believe that there are some dangerously misleading and incomplete ideas floating around on this subject. Whilst I have no doubt that undue burning of fossil fuels may aggravate climate change, the idea that nothing else is affecting it seems to me to be patently absurd. The only specific situation that seems to persuade some people that the acts of mankind are wholly or principally to blame here is the sheer speed at which climate change is now being brought about; whilst such an argument may indeed not be entirely invalid, it does seem to me to have a somewh suspicious whiff of doom-mongering convenience about it.

Frankly, as I have indicated elsewhere, I am very much in favour of the gradual supplanting of fossil fuel use with other more sustainable and (hopefully) less damaging means to generate power, but this is really more for politico-economic reasons than for climatological ones.

Thee's probably more damaging hot air produced in certain internet newsgroups than by a bunch of gas-guzzling SUVs, anyway...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

To be honest when much of Britten is under water

I know that Peter Grimes is set on the North Sea Coast, but that's surely stretching it, isn't it?! (or were you thinking of Death in Venice?)...

Best,

Alistair

[jas]

I know that Peter Grimes is set on the North Sea Coast, but that's surely stretching it, isn't it?! (or were you thinking of Death in Venice?)...

Best,

Alistair

Dammit! You beat me to it.

It's amazing how many Christianity debate threads we have masquerading under different titles. They're all exactly the same...

[ada]

blahblahflyingspaghettimonsterblah

[ahinton]

blahblahflyingspaghettimonsterblah

Might there be a possible risk that your frequent resorting to this "flying spaghetti monster" cause offence to Italians, Christian and non-Christian alike?

And on a not entirely unrelated topic, what would you (or anyone else, for that matter) think of the idea of starting a new thread with a view to reducing the total number of threads by means of composite ones? How's about
"Jesus has been found: Where's Bernhard?"
or
"Can you cook CHINESE beef ragout with good roasted manuscript paper?"
or
"What game console are 15000 members listening to now?"
That could reduce the hot air of which I wrote earlier.

"Jesus has been found", indeed! A likely story! What about "Rupert Murdoch has been lost"?...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Pardon me, but isn't this attitude of superiority one of sheer Christian arrogance?

Well said Sir.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

He was not conceived by physical sperm

Was it spiritual sperm then?

Thal

[pianowelsh]

There is absolutely no tenable proof that any of the DNA they have is in anyway connected to Jesus, before OR after his death so quite how they managed to come up with this little work of fiction is really an achievement.. I expect we shall see the finished results sometime in 2010 at the Cannes film festival!

[berrt]

Was it spiritual sperm then?

Thal

LOL!! I'd love to produce some of that, someday...
B.

[ahinton]

Was it spiritual sperm then?

Thal

And, if so. how many per cent proof was it? (or is the Bible unclear on that?)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Was it spiritual sperm then?

Thal

Actually, your question here is arguably almost in the same unedifying area as that of standing ovulations...

Anyway, we must stop jesting about all this and take it seriously; since none of us seems to know how this could possibly have taken place, we must wait for our beneficent Susan to tell us, beause she is, after all, not only a Christian but a mother who should know something about these things. To be fair to her, she did say that she didn;t know how it worked in this instance, but i have no doubt that she's trying to find out as we write; after all, God speaks to her and, presumably, she to God as well, so it would surely not be beyond her to ask Him for some guidance on and factual analysis of the processes involved.

Over you yousan, Susan...

I have to admit that the only virgin birth to which I've ever been able to accord credibility was when a woman once found herself suddenly giving birth on one of Richard Branson's flights and was fortunate that a qualified midwife was on board to deal with the emergency.

Best,

Alistair

[arensky]

There is absolutely no tenable proof that any of the DNA they have is in anyway connected to Jesus, before OR after his death so quite how they managed to come up with this little work of fiction is really an achievement.. I expect we shall see the finished results sometime in 2010 at the Cannes film festival!

Yes.

In his initial post zheer asked "is Christianity a fake" and while I don't want to get involved in a religious discussion (pointless imo) it should be pointed out that wherever this creed came from or what the truth about it's origins are, it exists now and therefore is quite real, whether you are a believer or not.

[ada]

Might there be a possible risk that your frequent resorting to this "flying spaghetti monster" cause offence to Italians, Christian and non-Christian alike?

And on a not entirely unrelated topic, what would you (or anyone else, for that matter) think of the idea of starting a new thread with a view to reducing the total number of threads by means of composite ones? How's about
"Jesus has been found: Where's Bernhard?"
or
"Can you cook CHINESE beef ragout with good roasted manuscript paper?"
or
"What game console are 15000 members listening to now?"
That could reduce the hot air of which I wrote earlier.

"Jesus has been found", indeed! A likely story! What about "Rupert Murdoch has been lost"?...

Best,

Alistair

hahaha what about

"what's the hardest ever method of creating a grand canyon and does anyone have the sheet music for another f**cking word association thread?"

and don't even consider uncle rupert going missing. I would be out of a job.

sorry to those earnest religious types for going off topic. Alistair started it.

[johnny-boy]

Well said Sir.

Thal

There are arrogant people in all walks of life. Let’s not discriminate. In fact, many Christians I know are humble people.

Well said Johnny-Boy! Arrogant statement?

 

[thalbergmad]

Let’s not discriminate.

Go on, just this once.

Thal

[pianistimo]

in contemplating all this today, i have to admit that faith is not necessarily by reason alone.  therefore, it seems absurd because we do not have anything to compare it to excepting Christ who is risen (to Christians).  to us (christians), the conception and birth of Jesus Christ WAS out of the ordinary.  a miracle.  He seems to 'break the bounds' of time and space.  did He carry the dna of all humans/ and God's Spirit too (which is not human?)

now, something to think about is the mandelbrot system - which is mathematic and proves that chaos and order can exist together.  that infinity in both directions - whether blowing it up or sizing it down - you see a pattern that keeps repeating itself and is a sort of blueprint for everything from dna, to when you rub your eyes and see patterns inside your eyelids. 

why am i changing the subject?  well, as i see it - unless you SEE something - you don't believe it.  but, the thing is - it exists - because this pattern can go infinitely small.  scientists have now been able to study it further by computer technology.  and it leads to God.  it's like God's fingerprint on things.  you have chaos on the one hand - and order on the other.

He made something out of nothing.  He made us have FREE WILL.  what other system do you have creatures (manmade) that totally have freewill?  it is impossible without an intricately detailed creator, imo.  and on top of this freewill - a system where God can predict the future.  it's like having your cake and eating it too.  He can see the future.  but, we are limited by our brains so we cannot see it - and must rely on Him to tell us what is to come.  but, it follows a pattern.

every 50 years there is a world war.  pattern.  yes.  does have to happen.  no.  will it?  probably.  does the mandelbrot system stop world war because we can now suddenly follow these patterns in every part of life?  no.  God is beyond his own patterns and systems.  when Jesus returns - it will be a surprise.  we will not know it - excepting that He has told us that it will happen.  should we listen?  i think so - because the bible is FULL of these mandelbrot systems (a system within a system.  duality.  mathematical concepts.  spiritual and physical - whether astronomical or within creation of bodies and plants) and it is like a reaffirming stamp that God is consistent.  therefore - it behoves us to listen when He speaks.  it is like a reaffirmation of why we were born.  we are born into a system.  He made it.  there is more!

[thalbergmad]

there is more!

Oh dear

[pianistimo]

weather can also follow patterns - but the bible predicts that in the 'last days' there will be supernatural events.  we will recognize them as such because they will go beyond what we have ever heard or seen of before. the sun becoming extra hot.  the moon being dark and not giving light.  these things - when they will be observed - will fulfil even a pattern of a cycle - and yet will seem odd to us.  God knows his own timing which is more than our small lifetimes.

[thalbergmad]

[ahinton]

and don't even consider uncle rupert going missing. I would be out of a job.

Why? I was hoping that you might take his...

sorry to those earnest religious types for going off topic. Alistair started it.

Thanks a bunch, ada! I'm no "earnest religious type" myself, as I expect you and others have noticed, but apart from the sheer nonsensical idea that anyone has actually "found" the remains of Jesus Christ in any form, I really sought to contribute little to this thread beyond questioning this virgin birth idea and I probably wouldn't even have done that much had it not been for our pianistimo telling us that it happened beause the Bible says so yet at the same time admitting that, even as a mother herself, she has no idea how.

Don't worry about it - at least no one has claimed that they've found his remains in Australia (I mean, I know that they have strange creatures out there that aren't known to exist anywhere else on earth, but that'd be stretching it just too far, methinks - good newspaper story, though - well, not "good", perhaps, but at least with ample commercial potential, one may suppose...)

Ah, well...

Best,

Alistair (who may not be an Australian but at least has no letters in his name that don't belong there)...

[ahinton]

in contemplating all this today, i have to admit that faith is not necessarily by reason alone.  therefore, it seems absurd because we do not have anything to compare it to excepting Christ who is risen (to Christians).  to us (christians), the conception and birth of Jesus Christ WAS out of the ordinary.  a miracle.

But where, Susan, is the evidence? Recounted in the Bible, yes, but where is the scientific proof? It's all down to faith alone...

did He carry the dna of all humans/ and God's Spirit too (which is not human?)

If He did, he must have had very strong arms indeed...

now, something to think about is the mandelbrot system - which is mathematic and proves that chaos and order can exist together.  that infinity in both directions - whether blowing it up or sizing it down - you see a pattern that keeps repeating itself and is a sort of blueprint for everything from dna, to when you rub your eyes and see patterns inside your eyelids. 

why am i changing the subject?  well, as i see it - unless you SEE something - you don't believe it.  but, the thing is - it exists - because this pattern can go infinitely small.  scientists have now been able to study it further by computer technology.  and it leads to God.  it's like God's fingerprint on things.  you have chaos on the one hand - and order on the other.

So where are these non-believing scientists who agree with you about this train of thought? Nice to know that even God's had His fingerprints taken, though. Ask Him about His carbon footprint next time you call Him, will you?

He made something out of nothing.

I can see how He at leat made YOU in His image, then!

He made us have FREE WILL.

That must be one of the shortest oxymorons I've ever encountered. "Ve haf vays iof making you haf FREE VILL! Ja!". The idea of forcing anyone to have free will is just ridiculous. Sorry, but how else can one view such a notion?

every 50 years there is a world war.

WWI: 1914-1918. WWII: 1939-1945. WWIII: Not yet, mercifully. Almost 62 years have elapsed since the end of WWII. So where's this 50-year  pattern, then?

when Jesus returns - it will be a surprise.

Not to Pianostreet members, it won't! How many time have you told us now? It's got to be getting on for that magical seventy times seven (or at least it's beginning to feel like it!)...

therefore - it behoves us to listen when He speaks.

Look, Susan, I don't claim that I've the best hearing in the world, but can you PM me with a script for the best ear-drops to clean out my ears so that I can hear what I cannot hear right now? (and please let that not be from one of those wretched Canadian pharmacies that usually harangue people to buy other kinds of drugs that you don't put in your ears)...

it is like a reaffirmation of why we were born.  we are born into a system.  He made it.  there is more!

I feared that there might be!

Best,

Alistair