Let me tell you what a woman wants

[m1469]

Disclaimer :  All my own humble opinion, of course 

So, you think you will cook her dinner ?  That's a good idea, actually.  But, don't just stop there, give her an experience that makes her feel beautiful from the very beginning.  You don't have to spend a lot of money, and the food doesn't even need to be amazing.  It's all in presentation.

Clear the dinner table and clean it  .  If the table itself is not "nice," put something over it (even a clean bed-sheet could do in a *pinch* -- empahsis on the word *clean* ... heh).  Set the table completely, with everything in the right spot, including napkins (!).

Make a centerpiece that will "take her away" in her mind, to somewhere else -- ANYWHERE else than the pooh of the daily grind.  See what you have around the house.  A nice (as you can get) and *clean* hand towel can be used as a "cloth" base for your center-piece.  Then arrange rocks, water in some way, fresh herbs (rosemerry, thyme), something fragrent and pleasant in aroma, even a bunch of hand-picked (okay, or store-bought) flowers are better than nothing (!) -- and yes, fire.  Something that will burn without getting out of control -- obviously candles are an easy solution.  But, there are also little oil lamps and such that you could find if you had time. 

Then, whatever you make for the meal -- no matter how simple or "mundane" it seems to you -- create a menu for it that will be placed and presented to her on her plate, describing everything you will serve in the most creative manner you can think of. 

For example :

"Bronzed Turkey Burger w/caramlized onions, served on a savory wheat bun, complimented with the fixings of your choice"

or

"Delicate Rice Pudding, served with tangy yogurt, maple syrup and cinnamon"   

You get the idea.  Just make it *sound* good.



Then, make all of this just seem "normal" -- be subtle about it all, let her discover it on her own without too many blaring hints from you -- afterall, she is a on a journey  .



Okay.  Does it sound too difficult ? 

(psssst ... if it does, you are in WAY over your head  )    

There's a little start anyway 

[pianowolfi]

Cool tips, m1469. Hee hee it makes me laugh because it reminds me of one of my attempts to impress a woman with super expensive caviar and salmon, very carefully decorated. (plus a sophisticated dinner afterwards, filled shiitake mushrooms with i don't remember what and the rest I forgot too. The clue was she didn't like caviar at all and she was thinking VERY economical so she looked rather a bit sceptical...So I guess it would be good to first look what preferences or pet peeves someone has... (Edit: just to say: I did not yet know this person very well back then, it was one of the first dates if I remember correctly)

[m1469]

...So I guess it would be good to first look what preferences or pet peeves someone has...

oohh... okay -- yes indeed !  So, how are you going to figure that out with very little conversation and without giving it all away ?    I mean, you are obviously talking early-on dates here. 

Plus, all of this can be/IS done at a nice resturant, too.   I am not placing limits, just giving a bigger concept as a blank(ish) canvas to start with.  .  Afterall, we are talking about some kind of art here, aren't we ? 

Anyway, this can be done at any point in the relationship -- and works really well especially after you know this person for years.

[elspeth]

If you're going to do the meal at home though, do please follow it through to its conclusion... no woman wants to have such a lovely meal so thoughtfully prepared, only to have to do the dishes afterwards! So, think it through... how much can you pre-prepare beforehand so all you have to do is cook it? Can you serve it in the dish you prepare it in?

If she's the sort who really can't bear dirty pots left in the sink, even overnight while you spoil her rotten... arrange something for her to do for twenty minutes while you wash up. Even if it's only for her to sit with a glass of wine and watch you wash up. And if you do leave them overnight, still make sure you do them, not her.

And, if you're going to move on to rose petals on the floor/on the pillow... she doesn't want to have to clean those up, either. You'll lose an awful lot of the ground you gained in the first place if you do all the fun bits only to make her clear up afterwards!

[m1469]

If she's the sort who really can't bear dirty pots left in the sink, even overnight while you spoil her rotten... arrange something for her to do for twenty minutes while you wash up. Even if it's only for her to sit with a glass of wine and watch you wash up.

Yeah.  Imagine the opportunity here, men ... You washing dishes, her watching you like a hawk whilest sipping a yummy wine and getting comfortable.  I don't know, you seem to have the stage here men, use it !  .  I mean, she can watch how you move, how efficient you are, how careful you are with things that are breakable.  You can wear those pants that you feel shows just what you want them to, and hides whatever you want them to. 

Anyway, you can observe her during this time, too. 

[jas]

This all sounds very nice, but (IMO) only if you already know the person pretty well, otherwise the pressure is well and truly on! I'm not one for being wined and dined, I find it all a bit forced. Being cooked a meal is nice, but I wouldn't want someone to go to huge amounts of trouble about it, especially if that's not how they normally cook. I'd much rather we were both at ease than him sitting there, stopwatch in hand, thinking "OH MY GOD, I'VE OVERCOOKED THE SHIITAKES!" Of course, a bit of effort is always a good thing but I think a centrepiece would be overkill. I find being natural and spontaneous to be much more attractive.

[m1469]

I find being natural and spontaneous to be much more attractive.

hmmm... well, of course.  But, there is plenty of room for that, too, even in something carefully planned.  Some of the best dates I ever had were times when it seemed as though it was completely spontaneous and not even supposed to be a date at all.  Anyway, there is plenty of room for individuality, and I personally wouldn't want what I described above everyday (though, okay, I have decided to make a centerpiece for my husband (it's already made, lickity split) that reminds him of the things he loves in life ... hee hee) --maybe once or twice in my life woud be nice, though ... hee hee -- and obviously details vary with each individual as to what would be "ideal" in every single circumstance .  I will admit, I don't think I could go the flower petal route ... maybe ever 

Anyway, I am just giving one idea -- you know, just giving vocabulary ideas in a spontaneous way -- perhaps I ought to have planned better before I mentioned any of this .

[opus10no2]

I'm curious what brought this topic about.

My life thus far has been more occupied by thinking than doing, and I have approached the notion of 'dating' with much trepidation.

Admittedly I look upon it as an outsider, and so I have perhaps the wrong perspective on it, but I look upon all human relations as an outsider, and I have done for as long as I can remember.
Especially 'romantic' relationships, at this time I look upon it with almost pure cynicism, and I would were it not for the fact that I desire the very thing I look upon in this way.

I'm interested in the concept of compromise, and basically - doing things *I* don't like doing for the sake of pleasing another.
I'm not a woman, but I understand that many women have the desire to be treated like a 'princess' and made to feel special, mostly in a kind of submissive way.
This appears to be what the topic is about? And forgive me for not wanting to go out and take the advice you have given...this just gives me food for thought and maybe just more carbs to fuel the cynicism in my stomach 

It's not about the food..or the presentation, though they are nice, of course....it's about them making an effort to please you and going out of their way to give you a special time to show you, in a way that you can obviously understand/interpret that they care about you and want to communicate to you how special they think you are.

Ok then..

Turning the tables ...what about what *I* would want?

Sex is obviously a prime motivator for many men, and if a guy were to do those things to a woman he obviously doesn't know well enough to understand what is special about her, he does it because he thinks her @$$ is eminently slappable and her womanhood undeniably hittable.

Not something I'd do, but I'm romantic enough to be honest 

What I'd actually ideally want from a relationship is quite simple, I'd want to *be* with someone and feel like I'd rather be nowhere else in the world.
Just talking, sharing mutually enjoyable experiences, even arguing and learning from eachother, it's all good.
In essence - best friends, with the added bonus of physical attraction and intimacy.

Sorry if this post doesn't pertain and fit in..but I wanted to communicate this and to understand what lies behind the post you made.

[mikey6]

so wierd reading normal words coming from comme!
Anywayz, so that's all we have to do is cook a gal a nice dinner? cool

[Bob]

(rolls eyes)  Sounds like work.  It might be simpler to go out.  Take another student and that's extra money.

Sounds harsh I know.  I just hate the amount of work it takes just to eat.  Buying the food, preparing the food, cleaning up after the food, thinking about what to make next.  A lot of effort for little return.

[Bob]

(Bob carefully follows m1469's directions and prepares a meal [cutting out some elements to make it all efficient].  Bob brings out two settings to the table, sits down, eats both meals, and goes off to practice.)

[pianowolfi]

(Bob carefully follows m1469's directions and prepares a meal [cutting out some elements to make it all efficient].  Bob brings out two settings to the table, sits down, eats both meals, and goes off to practice.)

 

[mycrabface]

Disclaimer :  All my own humble opinion, of course 

So, you think you will cook her dinner ?  That's a good idea, actually.  But, don't just stop there, give her an experience that makes her feel beautiful from the very beginning.  You don't have to spend a lot of money, and the food doesn't even need to be amazing.  It's all in presentation.

Clear the dinner table and clean it  .  If the table itself is not "nice," put something over it (even a clean bed-sheet could do in a *pinch* -- empahsis on the word *clean* ... heh).  Set the table completely, with everything in the right spot, including napkins (!).

Make a centerpiece that will "take her away" in her mind, to somewhere else -- ANYWHERE else than the pooh of the daily grind.  See what you have around the house.  A nice (as you can get) and *clean* hand towel can be used as a "cloth" base for your center-piece.  Then arrange rocks, water in some way, fresh herbs (rosemerry, thyme), something fragrent and pleasant in aroma, even a bunch of hand-picked (okay, or store-bought) flowers are better than nothing (!) -- and yes, fire.  Something that will burn without getting out of control -- obviously candles are an easy solution.  But, there are also little oil lamps and such that you could find if you had time. 

Then, whatever you make for the meal -- no matter how simple or "mundane" it seems to you -- create a menu for it that will be placed and presented to her on her plate, describing everything you will serve in the most creative manner you can think of. 

For example :

"Bronzed Turkey Burger w/caramlized onions, served on a savory wheat bun, complimented with the fixings of your choice"

or

"Delicate Rice Pudding, served with tangy yogurt, maple syrup and cinnamon"   

You get the idea.  Just make it *sound* good.



Then, make all of this just seem "normal" -- be subtle about it all, let her discover it on her own without too many blaring hints from you -- afterall, she is a on a journey  .



Okay.  Does it sound too difficult ? 

(psssst ... if it does, you are in WAY over your head  )    

There's a little start anyway 

This is meant  for men to change not to show. I'm sure women hate it when all you people are doing is to show off to your women when deep inside you're hating every single moment of behaving yourselves, so change - not show.

[pianistimo]

i'm with you mayla.  especially about the pants that show off whatever.  i mean, my husband used to wear these really tight jeans.  of course, he can't just show up for work in them - but - i distinctly remember him picking me up at the airport  - and it was just like 'zinga zinga' - i like those pants.

in fact, i suppose if a man had the right pants on - he might get away with not doing the dishes. 

everything is fair in love and war.  don't be surprised if the meal is perfect and she has a headache.  it's much better to go with the flow and subliminally divert her attention to poetry and music and rest.  then, maybe in an hour or two she's feeling good enough.  men don't realize that when a women says she tired - she's literally tired.

i forgot to say - my husband is the best cook in the world.  unfortunately, he is a messy cook.  but, it doesn't matter after the food is eaten.  i don't mind cleaning up really -because the food is good.  i've learned to just appreciate the many good things and not expect perfection.  a man can try to be perfect for a day -but he'll just go back to his old ways unless you threaten divorce.  but, it's rather hurtful to threaten every day - unless every need and perfection is met.  and, what man can last through that? 

perhaps opus10no2 is on to something.  give and take.  women can be as dense as men.  i think the problem is that women need to have little romantic gestures.  like calling during the day and telling her that you love her.  not, what bill needs to be paid (unless you sort of wind it in and around) first - and then say 'i love you ' when you say goodbye.  it sort of defeats the purpose of calling.

and, for that matter - bob might have the best idea for 8 pm.  just eat two dinners and go to bed and get some sleep.  sleep is #1.

[opus10no2]

Just make sure the kids don't see him in those 'zinga zinga' pants..it'll cost you 1000s for shrink appointments in years to come. 

[m1469]

I'm curious what brought this topic about.

Oh, yes, that's quite an excellent question, young man (hee hee hee).   My most preponderous apologies for not explaining myself in much greater detail.

You see, it's actually for this, like, class I'm taking ... yeah ... and, it's, like, a survey course and stuff.  It's so weird because, like, we show up and the teacher is just always late.  So, we just sit there chatting amongst ourselves and chewing bubble gum.  So one time, I just stood up, walked to the front of the class and started teaching this stuff.  Well, I didn't really know what I was talking about, but I had the class laughing, so I just kept right on going.  It was fun.  Anyhoo.  Does that answer your question ? 

...what about what *I* would want?

oooo... good question.  I bet you wished you started your own thread for that, I suppose you still could  .

[elspeth]

tell her you are coming home at noon.  this is the only time women aren't tired anyways.

Erm, not with the hours I work! Which is another point, if you're going to make a gesture like this... make sure it fits in with her life, if you want it to appear spontaneous in any way. I work evenings, weekends, days... all sorts of wierd hours. If my boyfriend says to me 'I want us to do something Friday night' and it happens to be opera season - my response will be 'you know I need a month's notice to organise a weekend night off in opera season. I'll be in the office at 10am and finishing at some point after midnight, and you do know this.' With my bloke and I, because we both work wierd hours, early morning can often be a good 'gesture' time when we're both doing late shifts. Breakfast in bed, for instance - and it doesn't have to be anything more complicated than tea and toast... then a follow-up phone call later in the day just to say hello.

[pianistimo]

it's not the zinga zinga pants that would send my kids to the shrink - it would be the stuff we used to buy at fredericks of hollywood.

ps elspeth - you are entirely correct that i cannot speak for the entire population of women.  but i see that you also think the hours of 6:30-7 -8 am much better than 11 pm. weekends could be different.  but, that's because you can sleep in.

[opus10no2]

Does that answer your question ? 

Kind of 

To everyone here it's quite obvious I *fancy* you a great deal, and if I never had a 'type' before ,  I do now because of you 

Sorry if that's insulting in any way, I know you're unique and irreplacable, but you must know how incredibly attractive you are, and to me, you've just set the 'bar' very high.

Anyway, whatever insight I can get into understanding women of your quality is most welcome and met with great fascination on my part 

oooo... good question.  I bet you wished you started your own thread for that, I suppose you still could  .

Well, it's just about me, and I don't pretend to be 'typical' in any way.

I said what I would want, it's very simple...but I suppose in the long term, romantic gestures matter more, to show the passion is still alive, just never make it forced.

Ah it's much more attractive to alot of women for a man to just intuitively know how to please the woman, writing an instruction manual would help alot of men but it just defeats the purpose.
U gotta take control, let da gud tymz juz roll 

[m1469]

Kind of 

To everyone here it's quite obvious I *fancy* you a great deal, and if I never had a 'type' before ,  I do now because of you 

Sorry if that's insulting in any way, I know you're unique and irreplacable, but you must know how incredibly attractive you are, and to me, you've just set the 'bar' very high.

Anyway, whatever insight I can get into understanding women of your quality is most welcome and met with great fascination on my part 

Well, do you mean the type that enjoys eating oysters on the halfshell, with seaweed wraps and wine, classical music and chocolate cake ?

Or, do you mean the type who has been known to eat hords of potatoe salad, three grilled hotdogs with the works on them in a single sitting, while chugging a beer and laughing with the 'pals', then going and playing soccer ?

Maybe these are not two different 'types' of person, so this question actually does not apply.

[pianistimo]

i miss thalbergmad.  he's this genuinely undiscernable guy.  one that collects music and gives it out generously - and then on the other hand probably hordes a few hot dogs on bad days.  i like that.  and, then - he decides to go and climb mt blanc.  people like this are rare.  and thalberg is a relatively unknown composer.  i kinda liked that he chose the underdog composer.  over liszt.  who probably ate oysters on the halfshell. 

this is the kind of guy that will cry with you (and offer you a hotdog) once he's made you cry from an insult.  the other will insult you and then eat the oysters.

i want to clairify that i'm not specifying that anyone who likes to eat well should be off limits (although i am a married woman - so they would be off limits to me).  in fact, eating good meals is nice.  but, it's not romance itself.  i think stevie is right about just being natural and having a good time.  sometimes, as people are married for a long time - they just get stuffy.  and, they don't just think of something spontaneous and maybe even 'wierd.'  with stevie and thalbergmad - you'd never know what was coming next.  well, i suppose even with my husband - i don't.  we try to surprise each other - but it's gotten down to twice a year. 

[opus10no2]

Well, do you mean the type that enjoys eating oysters on the halfshell, with seaweed wraps and wine, classical music and chocolate cake ?

Or, do you mean the type who has been known to eat hords of potatoe salad, three grilled hotdogs with the works on them in a single sitting, while chugging a beer and laughing with the 'pals', then going and playing soccer ?

Maybe these are not two different 'types' of person, so this question actually does not apply.

haha I just used the word 'type' to describe what I was trying to describe.

Which of those two types of people would I prefer? I find them inconsequential without context...but if both of those people may be you, in the context I actually like both types...and what may appear to be multiple 'personalities' is just our one personality find different ways to explore..fun, others, and ourself.

If who I am is defined by what I do right now, then there is something sorely lacking. If on the other hand..who I am may be defined by what I think, and what goes on outside, something noone sees, and I might just be very proud of this adventure in and of myself 

I think your sexy red hair would look just as beautiful all greasy eating chips, soda, and messing around as it would when you're all dressed up and perfectly presented 

Does that answer anything, or just open up more questions? 

[elspeth]

Meals and other romantic gestures are always just a means to an end, I think. The message should always be 'I care about you and I want you to know it'... and you can show people that in all sorts of ways. The sillier the better, I think, you can take romance far too seriously!

[pianowolfi]

Meals and other romantic gestures are always just a means to an end, I think. The message should always be 'I care about you and I want you to know it'... and you can show people that in all sorts of ways. The sillier the better, I think, you can take romance far too seriously!

I would agree with most, but can you ever take "romance" too seriously?

[elspeth]

I think the trick is to remember that the gesture is nice but if you get too hung up on the gesture you'll forget what you were trying to achieve. Letting someone know you care about them shouldn't be stressful.

[pianowolfi]

I think the trick is to remember that the gesture is nice but if you get too hung up on the gesture you'll forget what you were trying to achieve. Letting someone know you care about them shouldn't be stressful.

  I agree, yes, but I am still very much into "romance". Rachmaninoff was called "the last romantic" but people are not right about this. " Romance" is still very important, even if some people may not admit

[pianistimo]

rachmaninov had a bad knee.  perhaps he could not move as smoothly as he wanted too.  perhaps after i hurt my knee spontaneity left me.  hobbling down stairs.  ican smoothly glide up - but going down i have to sort of hop. 

do you think people sometimes become a sort of repellant for their spouses.  uh oh - the (wife/husband) is coming - quick - do something.  put a hat on.  read the paper.  sometimes we are very unstressed (usually exercising) and share a lot of stuff and just talk naturally.  other times when a lot of stuff is going on - he looks at the bank balance, looks at me, goes into the bedroom, and acts like the world is coming to an end.  i did not cause the bank balance to START going down.  he started the process.  i simply ended it.

my final pet peeve - since they are starting to come out -is having to listen to bad jokes or read them.  dumb blonde jokes.  like - a woman went to a mechanic and asked for him to change the 710.  he said, 'i don't know what a 710 is.  come over here and point to it.'  so she points in the vicinity of the oil cap.  OIL is spelled upside down.'  these jokes are pointless.  men should not tell bad jokes and expect women to be all romantic.

in fact, perhaps a manual SHOULD be written.  basically outlining whatm1469has proposed.  do what doesn't come naturally.  like the dishes.

[opus10no2]

If I were to 'do' the dishes in order to 'do' a woman, wouldn't that make her basically a pretentious prostitute 

[elspeth]

I think the bad jokes are just a man thing. Or possibly just a shared trait among all the men I know... one of the things we girls just have to learn to live with... And when you're trying to let a guy know you care about him, one of the easiest ways is to flatter his ego, which often includes laughing at his jokes regardless.

Once you know each other well... I think it's useful to have a conversation about 'what romantic gestures do you like?'. Write a list of basic ideas for each other. Then you've always got a list of starting points for ideas. So if one of you says a nice meal, then you can go for m1469's ideas above! And maybe a second list of 'what gestures don't you like?' - so if she has hay fever you know not to buy her flowers. One of my pet peeves for romantic gestures is 'valentines'-type cards with preprinted poetry in them. If he gets me a card, he knows I'd always want a simple one with a beautiful photograph on the front and only what he's written inside. And I don't care if all he's written inside is 'love from me' as long as it's him that's written it, preferably with a nice ink pen, not a biro. I'm not a hearts-and-flowers type, he has to think beyond that if he wants to get through to me.

[elspeth]

If I were to 'do' the dishes in order to 'do' a woman, wouldn't that make her basically a pretentious prostitute 

Don't most relationships boil down to that on some level? She gives you sex and kids provided you keep earning to support her while the children are small?

[pianowolfi]

Don't most relationships boil down to that on some level? She gives you sex and kids provided you keep earning to support her while the children are small?

Very romantic

[pianistimo]

much more than that.  i'd say that when two people are in love -they basically enjoy nesting.  you know - that feeling when you are both sitting together and enjoying the fact that the other person is near.  you try to make life good for the spouse.

my husband has never had to pay for childcare (which is very expensive and would eat up all his money). has three of his own children (something you don't get with a prostitute - which would be dna testing to find out who the real fathers were), washed clothes, good meals (usually), bills paid, home decor - which i happen to paint the entire house inside and out, van pooling the children here and there, and romance to boot.  i'd say it's a lot more work than a prostitute would be willing to do.

and, what makes it better (even though i complain sometimes) is that you both work it out.  whatever is bothering you.  with a prostitute - there would be no reason to have a deep relationship.  even though we still occasionally do things that bug each other - we usually do laugh it off.  i mean - i might threaten to divorce - but he knows i never will.  and, he might threaten to take the checkbook away - but in the end - i have the money next month.  not that the money is mine - per se.  i pay the bills with it - buy groceries - and yes i like to shop - but not excessively, imo.  usually it something the family needs.

prostitutes would take the money and run. 

i think marriage is just something that people have to work at.  asm1469says - to put some effort into something.  my husband has never stopped telling me his fantasies.  of course, they are never doing the dishes.  but, at least i haven't stopped him from fantasizing.  he seems to think that a bit more agressiveness would be fine.  basically, stripping him at the door when he comes home or waking him up at 3 am.  have to do something with the children for the coming home part.  usually if he comes home late - i'm in the easy chair just chilling  and telling everyone dinner is on the stove.

what should a woman do to become more agressive.  are there drugs for this?

[zheer]

   The truth about about women , women don't need men anymore, women can function perfectly well with-out men. So much so that with the advance in medical science the process of reproduction can also eliminate the need for a male partners. So much so that even sexual satisfaction is found through varrious sex toys or even with other female partners. Since the western world is increasingly femanized the work force is now open and more rewarding for women.
   It is becoming painfully obvious that women are find great satisfaction in dominating men in the various pathetic ways. Women also suffer from what i call the masturbation sindrom, either litrally or in various other artistic or intellectual ways. The key in understanding womens hidden intention can be found in a number of text by Sigmund Freud.

[pianistimo]

i think women want both, or it all.  it works for some and doesn't for others.  i don't think working outside of the home is bad per se.  it's just more tempting to have outside relationships that become deeper than the one with your spouse.  it's whom you spend the most time with.

as i see it - our society is set up to separate families.  when, it used to be everyone would work and sleep together at the same time.  some professions make this very hard.  the individuals have to have a strong committment to each other.

there are many ways to show your love to your spouse if you have to work long hours apart.  one, i think -is keeping pictures of them nearby.  one person i remember had his wife's pic as a screen saver.  i think this is precious.  or calling them.  my husband usually does call.  it's nice to hear his voice and be reassurred that he is fine and that things are going well.

my husband, even though i sometimes complain, has a very good job but has to finish projects or give reports - or do some kind of emergency work occasionally for late hours.  that is when piano comes in as my other 'love' because i focus on the music and the time goes quickly.  i do miss him.  it's just that some days are long and when he gets home we're both tired.  usually the weekend is the time to unwind and actually talk enough to feel relaxed more. 

the reality of this society is that most of the time it takes two incomes - or one person is working a difficult job.  we don't have extra gas, lunch money, clothing - etc. going to my job yet.  sometimes saving can be as economical (or more) than having extra money.  saving money is like making money.  if you save it.  i try to save.  sometimes i don't.  but, most of the time i do.

[zheer]

  Anyway, as a hetero male i find most women repulsive.

[pianistimo]

maybe that is good, in a way, because when you find the right one - you'll know it and not be confused.

[thalbergmad]

  The truth about about women , women don't need men anymore

Not sure about that old chap.

Vibrators cannot mow lawns.

Thal

[zheer]

confused.

   Tanx,  

[zheer]

Not sure about that old chap.

Vibrators cannot mow lawns.

Thal

  Exactly women don't need men, women use men.

[thalbergmad]

That is my experience as well

[pianistimo]

that's too bad.  isn't money meant to be used.  what would you rather spend your money on?  i don't get it? 

for me - if the world had no men (and if i wasn't married) i'd just as soon shoot myself.  of course, part of that would be the reality of having to live with other women.

[thalbergmad]

i'd just as soon shoot myself. 

You could always pretend and then shoot yourself.

[zheer]

that's too bad.  isn't money meant to be used.  what would you rather spend your money on?  i don't get it? 

   LOL, pianistimo you are obviously not Jewish.

[ted]

These transactional game-playing approaches, trying to isolate generalised male and female responses as components of some sort of interactional game, I think can be very destructive of happiness in a marriage and not too good for society either. Sex is nice in its own little way and place, but I married because I could not conceive of a future without the friend, the human being I had grown to love above all others. That's all there was to it, not some sort of behavioural transaction.

As for all that business about doing the dishes, it's just common sense and fairness, give and take. Someone who cannot perceive what is fair or has no sense of balance in overall contribution to a marriage had best stay single. If my wife is below par I do 90%, if I am under the weather she does 90%. It's really very simple.

Do we argue ? Yes, of course we do. We come from radically different cultures and belong to different races. You don't transcend these differences without a good deal of adjustment and compromise. These arguments, however, are not the result of any generalised differences in male and female natures.

Yes, surprisingly, I do set great store by romantic love. I have found it to be a mighty powerful force which has held me steady during the rough times over the years. It has nothing to do with sex though, nothing at all. Whether I am unusual or we are unusual in this respect I cannot say and I do not really care.

[pianistimo]

i don't see love as transactional either.  but, there is a convenience factor.  i mean, if you have children - do you want them to have a sitter and work or do you want to stay home?  i think this is a choice women have.  it shouldn't be decided for them.  my husband was ameniable to my working at home or away - but i told him it was too stressful to attempt to go to a job away from home simply to come back in 1 1/2 hours to pick up children at the busstop.  you can pay more money for childcare after school - but as i saw it - i liked to be there and do it myself.  so, i started teaching piano lessons and tutoring reading.  it was a good job and i still plan to continue.

perhaps the real issue is that each couple work out their own arrangements to their mutual satisfaction and not rely on world politics to determine what they do.  if i were to do it over again - i'd have six children and not a fear or worry about 'what if...'  things work out and you just don't have to compare what you do with other people.  what other people do is their business - but it might not work for you.

i like children.  i like being home.  i don't care what other people say or don't say about my motivations.  i know my own motivations.  taking care of my house, family, and children is not an embarrassment to me.  and, i feel much happier doing it than working for someone else who would get the benefits of my work instead of my own family. 

on the other hand - i don't see a problem for neighbors or friends who choose otherwise.  i don't really see it as an 'issue' per se.  if a woman works or doesn't work out - it doesn't prove internal motivation towards money.  it's what you do with what you have.  with gas prices the way they are - people might make more money both working at home - who knows?!

[ted]

Sadly we didn't have much choice about that, Susan. I would have loved to stay at home, bring up our son and do all the housework and my wife would have liked to work.  Unfortunately I could earn a lot more than she could and to do it that way around would not have worked unless we sacrificed owning our own home. Paying people to look after our son was right out the question financially, even if we had wanted it, which we didn't. This might not have been the case in another country of course, I hasten to add.

I strongly agree with you in principle though. In an ideal world everybody should have a choice about everything. Since the world is not ideal it is usually a question of reaching the fairest compromise.