Rach 2 (Read 3109 times)

christiaan · « on: June 04, 2007, 09:07:07 AM »

What is the correct version of the Rach 2`s openinig chords? To 'arpeggio' it like Ashkenazy or to play it 'blocked' like Richter/ Van Cliburn? Wat do you guys prefer?

I hate it when people arpeggio it to fit the size of their small hands! If you have small hands, don`t try Rachmaninov`s second concerto!

What do you think?

nicco · «Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 09:24:08 AM »

A simple search will give you plenty of answers.

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16731.0.html

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9664.0.html

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5566.0.html

jlh · «Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 09:39:54 AM »

Quote from: nicco on June 04, 2007, 09:24:08 AM

A simple search will give you plenty of answers.

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16731.0.html

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9664.0.html

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5566.0.html

Indeed

christiaan · «Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 09:54:11 AM »

Indeed??

jlh · «Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 10:03:30 AM »

If anything, block the chords so that you play the low F and then the top notes together.

Arpeggiating it makes it sound like trash.

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16731.msg179645.html#msg179645

pianowolfi · «Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 10:20:31 AM »

Lol Rach himself arpeggiated them.

franzliszt2 · «Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 12:56:32 PM »

The thing with this opening is to keep a sense of pulse. So many people play it withput even thinking of the pulse. Whatever you do, keep the pulse. Arpeggiating is harder to do this, becasue you have to think...does the beat sound on the boottom note, or the top? It's interesting becasue you may think it sounds on the top,. but when you get somebody else to listen, they may disagree.

rob47 · «Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 01:20:53 PM »

maybe like this

Here is the link for the file you uploaded:
http://download.yousendit.com/EDD4142036FCF266

nicco · «Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 03:58:57 PM »

Quote from: pianowolfi on June 04, 2007, 10:20:31 AM

Lol Rach himself arpeggiated them.

I think he preffered them blocked, playing the low f in the chord a little before the rest of the chord. At least he does that on a recording i have.

gruffalo · «Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 05:18:33 PM »

Quote from: rob47 on June 04, 2007, 01:20:53 PM

maybe like this

Here is the link for the file you uploaded:
http://download.yousendit.com/EDD4142036FCF266

what.

lazlo · «Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 06:16:36 PM »

I have two different recordings of rachmaninoff playing this concerto, and they definetely are not arpeggiated in these two recordings... maybe another, although i was under the impression I had his complete recordings.

pianowolfi · «Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 09:35:52 AM »

Quote from: nicco on June 04, 2007, 03:58:57 PM

I think he preffered them blocked, playing the low f in the chord a little before the rest of the chord. At least he does that on a recording i have.

Yes you are right, and lazlo too. I haven't listened to this for a while and my remembrance was not precise

jlh · «Reply #12 on: June 05, 2007, 10:15:10 AM »

The thing about it is this: that opening intro with the chords should sound like Russian bells. How does arpeggiating them make them sound like bells? Precluding the blocked upper notes by the lower F actually makes it sound more like real bells than just playing the entire chord at once. That's my thought on why Rachmaninoff played it this way on every recording I've heard of his -- even though physically he could play the whole chord with no problem.

steve jones · «Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 02:38:53 PM »

Quote from: christiaan on June 04, 2007, 09:07:07 AM

I hate it when people arpeggio it to fit the size of their small hands! If you have small hands, don`t try Rachmaninov`s second concerto!

What do you think?

Bit of a daft statement, given that the majority pianists are physically incapable of playing the stretches presented to them in the romantic literature. The most difficult tenth stretches are rolled by the vast majority of pianists. Atleast the ones I see play anyway! You do need a exceptionally large hand to play those chords solid.

However, I do get your point here. The chords during the intro of Rach 2 sound terrible when rolled imo. Simply detach the bottom F. This seems to be the accepted way around the problem, and has not spoiled some fine interps. Take Freire for instance.

SJ

mikey6 · «Reply #14 on: June 29, 2007, 12:26:11 AM »

Quote from: christiaan on June 04, 2007, 09:07:07 AM

What is the correct version of the Rach 2`s openinig chords? To 'arpeggio' it like Ashkenazy or to play it 'blocked' like Richter/ Van Cliburn? Wat do you guys prefer?

I hate it when people arpeggio it to fit the size of their small hands! If you have small hands, don`t try Rachmaninov`s second concerto!

What do you think?

The correct version? err.....
Personally I prefer it block, but seeing as I couldn't quite reach the notes, I used to bounce of the low 'f'.
I don't think having to break chords (which is perfectly acceptable) is goin to stop most people from attempting one of the most popular piano concertos in the repertoire.

hodi · «Reply #15 on: June 29, 2007, 07:39:10 AM »

ricther has an enormous hand reach of 12th (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
no wonder why he didn't roll those crhods

furtwaengler · «Reply #16 on: June 29, 2007, 08:20:00 AM »

FWIW, Rachmaninov himself could hold down a chord of G, C, E-flat, G, and C with his right hand and is in the Guiness Book of World Records for such.

nomis · «Reply #17 on: June 29, 2007, 04:53:12 PM »

Quote from: hodi on June 29, 2007, 07:39:10 AM

ricther has an enormous hand reach of 12th (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
no wonder why he didn't roll those crhods

You only need a stretch of a F-A to play those chords evenly. It's not that difficult.

steve jones · «Reply #18 on: June 29, 2007, 08:57:06 PM »

Quote from: nomis on June 29, 2007, 04:53:12 PM

You only need a stretch of a F-A to play those chords evenly. It's not that difficult.

First up, it has little to do with difficulty. I has to do with physical possibility! You can either reach a chord, or you cant. Simple as that. Possible / impossible. If it's possible but severely uncomfortable, then I guess you have to use your better judgement.

But also, lets not confuse the problem - the F to Ab stretch is not the really problem for most people, its the inner voices. Playing F - A is VERY different to playing F, C, Eb, Ab!

For me, I can play the F, C, Eb, A chord and I can play the F, C, Ab chord, but not the F, C, Eb, Ab, where the C has to be played by the 3 finger.

nomis · «Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 02:57:50 PM »

Quote from: steve jones on June 29, 2007, 08:57:06 PM

First up, it has little to do with difficulty. I has to do with physical possibility! You can either reach a chord, or you cant. Simple as that. Possible / impossible. If it's possible but severely uncomfortable, then I guess you have to use your better judgement.

But also, lets not confuse the problem - the F to Ab stretch is not the really problem for most people, its the inner voices. Playing F - A is VERY different to playing F, C, Eb, Ab!

For me, I can play the F, C, Eb, A chord and I can play the F, C, Ab chord, but not the F, C, Eb, Ab, where the C has to be played by the 3 finger.

Whoops. Forgot about that. :p Yeah, that is a bit more difficult. It's easy enough to play the C-Eb on its own I feel, but the F-Ab contorts the hand a bit.