octaves NEED HELP! NOW!

[nervous_wreck]

i'm about to throw my metronome out the window.
comparitively to your scale how fast are you supposed to play your octaves? like i'm working on getting my single note scale at 132 in sixteenths. my teacher told me that my octaves are supposed to be just as fast as my single note scales, how is that possible? so 132 in sixteenths octaves, on c # minor. does this sound right to anyone? and i've been trying relaly hard, but i just can't get my arms to move that fast. no matter how little motion i make, or how light i play, i just cna't seem to go that fast.

[jlh]

Well, my octaves are nowhere near the speed of my regular scales.  Seems strange to even think this is possible.

[furtwaengler]

That is physically implausible. Consider it from the other way around...no matter how fast you play your octaves, you're going to be able to play your scales faster because of the motions required. If this is not the case then there's something truly lacking in technique.

[opus10no2]

In general, octaves - in theory, should be no more than 1/3 of your scale speed.

[nervous_wreck]

is this the same for chromatic scales? which are supposed to be in sexlets which is hard to make just as fast as my scale as well...

[franzliszt2]

My octaves are not even close to my scale speed. My scales are safe at 184 with 4 notes to a beat, so semi's at 184. octaves nowhere near that. Don't worry about octave speed. It will come if you don't force it

[cherub_rocker1979]

i'm about to throw my metronome out the window.
comparitively to your scale how fast are you supposed to play your octaves? like i'm working on getting my single note scale at 132 in sixteenths. my teacher told me that my octaves are supposed to be just as fast as my single note scales, how is that possible? so 132 in sixteenths octaves, on c # minor. does this sound right to anyone? and i've been trying relaly hard, but i just can't get my arms to move that fast. no matter how little motion i make, or how light i play, i just cna't seem to go that fast.

I wish your teacher didn't tell you that.  That is so misleading.  This is how students get injured.  If you were to continue practicing octaves like that you will get a lot of tension which will lead to injury.

[mrdaveux]

Just look at the repertoire :

Scale passages are sometimes above 200 bpm with sixteenth notes. Most advanced students practice their scales around 160 bpm.

Octave passages never go near those speeds. Even when you consider traditional neckbreakers, such as Liszt HR6 or Chopin op53, you will not see people usually go faster than the 130s bpm, and that's for the excellent technicians.

Another example of teachers fallacies.

[daniloperusina]

Clearly, you have to ask your teacher to demonstrate what he means before you cause serious injuries to your arms! Or did he during the lesson himself play c#minor in 16th scales at 132, four notes per beat, and then dashed off the same scale in the same speed in double octaves, playing four octaves up and down? If he did, pay him double, and beg him to teach you that!:-)

There must be a misunderstanding...

[franzliszt2]

Speed and octaves just come naturally with time. You first nee to actually learn to play them properly and that came only be done slowly. Use proper arm weight etc.... get your teacher top show you. When all of that is totally batural the speed with be there. It's all about relaxation

[opus10no2]

Following franzliszt2's advice will give you good octaves, but bear in mind something extra would be required for extreme speed octaves, which he evidently doesn't care about.

[franzliszt2]

Extreme speed octaves come from perfect foundation techniuqe. If you go like opus10no2 you will have fastish octaves, and maybe they'll be faster, but they won;t sound faster than a perfectly excecuted octave passage. Not many people do care about extreme speeds, becasue if you ever go to an extreme in a performance it always sound out of control and your sound quality will drop. Which he obviously doesn't care about.

I don't even no what he means by super speed octaves, I've never met anyone or seen anyone with octaves that have been faster than mine, or the vast vast majority of my friends. Octaves are just a simple technique that once mastered, speed is of little issue. Just stupid people go phoar!!! speed. I have been massivly impressed by octaves when people play the liszt sonata and pefectly shape the octaves to create a line. Inlike that octave unleash on youtube which is just crap. It's easy to do that

[franzliszt2]

Oh and best way to get faster octaves is to practice just the thumbs. The 3rd 4th and 5th fingers can be used to crawl up the keys and the arm can help them do that. The thib has an annoying habit of getting tense, so that is the problem.

To rela txhe thumb, play scales with just the thumb, very lightly, AND use the other hand to tap the thumb, so the thumb is not movign at all but being moved by the other. Litterally tap it, and the thumb, if relaxed will instatnly return to the orignal position. This will teach the thumb to move, and teach you to feel exactly what true relaxation is. It will feel so much easier after that, but only for a brief period of time until you tense again. Do this every once in a while. If you wnat mre on the technique I describd (pr tried to) look up finger tapping on google. It's quite a handy little trick that may of may not help/ It's worked for me sometimes.

[opus10no2]

Extreme speed octaves come from perfect foundation techniuqe. If you go like opus10no2 you will have fastish octaves, and maybe they'll be faster, but they won;t sound faster than a perfectly excecuted octave passage. Not many people do care about extreme speeds, becasue if you ever go to an extreme in a performance it always sound out of control and your sound quality will drop. Which he obviously doesn't care about.

I don't even no what he means by super speed octaves, I've never met anyone or seen anyone with octaves that have been faster than mine, or the vast vast majority of my friends. Octaves are just a simple technique that once mastered, speed is of little issue. Just stupid people go phoar!!! speed. I have been massivly impressed by octaves when people play the liszt sonata and pefectly shape the octaves to create a line. Inlike that octave unleash on youtube which is just crap. It's easy to do that

hahah BS,

2 pianists can go at the same speed, one with more control, one with less.

The one with more can be said to have tech to BURN.

Now, saying you can play like Grynyuk is even MORE BS.

Just admit you are slow, come to terms with it 

[franzliszt2]

Ask anyone that has seen me play an octave passage and see what they say 

[zheer]

i've been trying relaly hard, but i just can't get my arms to move that fast. no matter how little motion i make, or how light i play, i just cna't seem to go that fast.

     Aside from Chopins Octave Etude and probably a lot of other compositions for solo piano playing by Liszt, it's rearly necessary for a pianist to display shoeeeeeeeee super fast octaves.Thus it's sometimes a better idea to avoid music with fast octave alltogether ,therefore the need to practice octave.

[opus10no2]

My octaves are not even close to my scale speed. My scales are safe at 184 with 4 notes to a beat, so semi's at 184. octaves nowhere near that.

 

[franzliszt2]

Yes I talk of perfection not of lousy pedal down speed octaves. My sound totally starts to go if I go insane speeds, as does every person I've ever met or heard 

Do you have ears? 

[opus10no2]

Perfection is imperfection - Vladimir Horowitz 

[elevateme_returns]

i dont understand that :S

[franzliszt2]

Perfection is a bad thing in muci, but it is a thing we all strive for, yet we never no what it actually is. I seek to hve perfect legato octaves, yet it is impossibe becasue of the thumb. But I will spend my life aiming to get the next best thing 

[mephisto]

'franzliszt2' are you from England, and is english you first language?

Because you appear to be unable to see the difference in the words "no" and "know" an I will guess also the word "now".

"No" means that you are most likely dissagreeing with someone. "No, I don't like milk." As opposed too "Yes, I like milk."

Know(the word you should have used in your last post) is a verb. You use it together with a noun. For instance, in the sentence "He is happy," "is" is the verb and "he" is the noun. "To know" is also a verb:
To Know, I know, I knew, I have known, I had known, I will know, I shall know etc
It means that you are most likely aware of something." I KNOW that Franz Liszt lived from 1811-1886".

"Now", on the other hand deals with time. I am writing this right NOW, not in a few weeks for instance.

Hope this helps.

PS. If english isn't your 1st language I must excuse my self. My english is FAR from perfect either.

[opus10no2]

Perfection is a bad thing in muci

How eloquently put!

[franzliszt2]

'franzliszt2' are you from England, and is english you first language?

Because you appear to be unable to see the difference in the words "no" and "know" an I will guess also the word "now".

"No" means that you are most likely dissagreeing with someone. "No, I don't like milk." As opposed too "Yes, I like milk."

Know(the word you should have used in your last post) is a verb. You use it together with a noun. For instance, in the sentence "He is happy," "is" is the verb and "he" is the noun. "To know" is also a verb:


To Know, I know, I knew, I have known, I had known, I will know, I shall know etc
It means that you are most likely aware of something." I KNOW that Franz Liszt lived from 1811-1886".

"Now", on the other hand deals with time. I am writing this right NOW, not in a few weeks for instance.

Hope this helps.

PS. If english isn't your 1st language I must excuse my self. My english is FAR from perfect either.

Yes I am english. And I do actually have an A level in English. I just choose not to think so carefully (think at all) about how I type on a piano forum.

Have you ever heard of the word wanker? I think if you look it up, you'll find a perfect description of you.

[opus10no2]

I'd agree, franz, because he has better octaves than you

[franzliszt2]

hahah yeh sure

[nicco]

I just choose not to think so carefully (think at all) about how I type

Clearly

[franzliszt2]

I'll write a perfect English essay if you really want!

[elevateme_returns]

i know, its that stupid. why must people criticise grammar, on an internet forum! i only criticise if someone has criticised mine. the important thing should be the content of the post, not the quality of english.

[elevateme_returns]

'franzliszt2' are you from England, and is english you first language?

Because you appear to be unable to see the difference in the words "no" and "know" an I will guess also the word "now".

"No" means that you are most likely dissagreeing with someone. "No, I don't like milk." As opposed too "Yes, I like milk."

Know(the word you should have used in your last post) is a verb. You use it together with a noun. For instance, in the sentence "He is happy," "is" is the verb and "he" is the noun. "To know" is also a verb:
To Know, I know, I knew, I have known, I had known, I will know, I shall know etc
It means that you are most likely aware of something." I KNOW that Franz Liszt lived from 1811-1886".

"Now", on the other hand deals with time. I am writing this right NOW, not in a few weeks for instance.

Hope this helps.

PS. If english isn't your 1st language I must excuse my self. My english is FAR from perfect either.

oh my god... ive only just seen that. hahahah youre such a loser!!!

I'd agree, franz, because he has better octaves than you

have you heard franz's octaves? you'd be surprised. takes good octave technique to play the liszt sonata  all the way through, and he can do that.

[elevateme_returns]

Clearly

lol that sounds like you're just trying to be arrogant and superior. why bother! haha its a piano forum. you must be super cool

[nicco]

lol that sounds like you're just trying to be arrogant and superior. why bother! haha its a piano forum. you must be super cool

You keep saying that its just a piano forum. Does that mean we should forget all about grammar and proper english and write like a bunch of immature teens? I think not. Nobody will ever respect your opinion when you have that kind of attitude.

[elevateme_returns]

You keep saying that its just a piano forum. Does that mean we should forget all about grammar and proper english and write like a bunch of immature teens? I think not. Nobody will ever respect your opinion when you have that kind of attitude.

then thats not my problem. lol you can either respect my opinion or disrespect it, im not going to pretend to be something im not just for the sake of a few snobby people on a piano forum.

[opus10no2]

have you heard franz's octaves? you'd be surprised. takes good octave technique to play the liszt sonata  all the way through, and he can do that.

Wow!

I heard Arrau could do this too!

[mephisto]

oh my god... ive only just seen that. hahahah youre such a loser!!!

Passing on superior knowledge is the signe of a loser? Maybe you should tell that to any of your piano-teachers if they point out a mistake you weren't aware of you were playing?

I didn't say any harsh words. Why is it bad when someone tells you something is wrong? Should I just kill my math teacher? He pointet out mistake after mistake I was doing. I learned from him and ended up with 100% on my final math exam. Anyone can do that easy if they have a good teacher that tells them how to do things. Learning from people is extremely important, so is the difference between the words "no" and "know".

It is the same with octaves, a good teacher will teach you how to do them, no reason to call a teacher who can teach you great octave technic a loser(I am not refeering to the teacher mentioned earlier in this topic).

[nicco]

then thats not my problem. lol you can either respect my opinion or disrespect it, im not going to pretend to be something im not just for the sake of a few snobby people on a piano forum.

If you dont care about people respecting your opinion, then why do you even bother coming here?

[franzliszt2]

How have you got superior knowledge? I'm probably more educated in the English language than you so shut up you pretentious arse. Maybe you'd like to give us some of your amazing advice on octaves? Or can't you do them? You can only insult peoples language?

He pointet out mistake after mistake I was doing.

Sorry do you mean "Pointed"? You see you add "ed" on the end, not "et" DUH!!!!

[elevateme_returns]

If you dont care about people respecting your opinion, then why do you even bother coming here?

um, usually either to have fun in the arguments / debates, or for information or help. its not really important to me that people respect my opinion here. after all its only a forum. lol

[elevateme_returns]

He pointed out mistake after mistake I was doing.

i cant believe youre trying to patronise franz about his english even though you come up with stuff like that!!!!

I learned from him and ended up with 100% on my final math exam.

oop, i see the word "math". i apologise, everythings clear now. 

[nicco]

um, usually either to have fun in the arguments / debates, or for information or help. its not really important to me that people respect my opinion here. after all its only a forum. lol

If its not really important to you, then why do you constantly post your opinion about everything?

[elevateme_returns]

If its not really important to you, then why do you constantly post your opinion about everything?

why not? just because i post my opinion, doesnt mean people have to respect it

[nicco]

why not? just because i post my opinion, doesnt mean people have to respect it

If they dont respect it then your opinion is pointless.

[mephisto]

How have you got superior knowledge? I'm probably more educated in the English language than you so shut up you pretentious arse. Maybe you'd like to give us some of your amazing advice on octaves? Or can't you do them? You can only insult peoples language?
 
Sorry do you mean "Pointed"? You see you add "ed" on the end, not "et" DUH!!!!

I am sure if you go to a conservatoir you have better octaves than me. I just pointed out that there is a difference between the word "no" and "know".

If you dissagree, and think that "no" is a verb, by all means continue to argue with me.

[elevateme_returns]

I am sure if you go to a conservatoir you have better octaves than me. I just pointed out that there is a difference between the word "no" and "know".

If you dissagree, and think that "no" is a verb, by all means continue to argue with me.

how about i just point out theres a difference between the word "conservatoir" and "conservatoire". its the same argument.

[elevateme_returns]

If they dont respect it then your opinion is pointless.

hahaha to people like you, maybe. i couldnt care less what people think about what i say! ive given my opinion, its there for people who want it, and for those who dont, just ignore it . i dont know why respect is necessary.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

how about i just point out theres a difference between the word "conservatoir" and "conservatoire". its the same argument.

Hardly, it is quite evident without examining the context that the word "conservatoire" is intended. With "know" and "no" it is not apparent. Still, this is loosely entertaining. Is ahinton free to act as referee? 

[nicco]

hahaha to people like you, maybe. i couldnt care less what people think about what i say! ive given my opinion, its there for people who want it, and for those who dont, just ignore it . i dont know why respect is necessary.

Not really the case. If you post your opinion on something, but come off as a total douche, then your opinion will have no value. Im just saying you could present your points in a more decent manner. Im sure you have a lot of knowledge, if you could share it in a proper way then everyone will be happy.

[elevateme_returns]

i no for a fact that anyone reading this would no what i mean

?

[elevateme_returns]

If you post your opinion on something, but come off as a total douche, then your opinion will have no value.

but i dont come off as a total douche, i just dont use perfect english and grammar

[cherub_rocker1979]

i cant believe youre trying to patronise franz about his english even though you come up with stuff like that!!!!

oop, i see the word "math". i apologise, everythings clear now. 

Mephisto is Norwegian, not British or American.  I bet he knows more about English than you  know about Norwegian.