Chopin Scherzos: Obligatory Topic

[dnephi]

Discuss the following about all 4.

1. Character
2. Form
3. Technique- How demanding is it?  In what ways?  How much would you say it develops it?

A. Scherzo No. 1
B. Scherzo No. 2
C. Scherzo No. 3
D. Scherzo No. 4

For example,

A. 1.  Demonic, intense.
2. Pretty much standard FSF, S being the trio, with a dashing coda.  The recapitulation is interesting.
3. I know little, as I've never studied the sonata.

Etc...

Thanks all .

[pianistimo]

the 'sonata?'  are scherzos in sonata form?  dnephi- it would be much simpler if you just handed it over on a silver platter.  i'm all ears.  this is my usual way because i have three children and very little time.

i know little if nothing about the chopin scherzo's excepting that i like them.  they are - bold. 

ok - i did a little search about scherzo form and found out that they can be in ternary form, in rondo form, or in sonata form.  a good example of rondo scherzo would be mahler's fifth symphony (3rd movement).  typically scherzos are third movements excepting where the second and third get shifted (as with beethoven's 9th).  also some are in sonata form - as with brahms 4th symphony. 

i really didn't know this - and am glad you are asking these questions.  scherzo's i know the least about.  now, about the chopin scherzos - i'm guessing (because of the phrasing of question) they are in sonata form somehow.  ABA  - a sort of expo, development, and recap (although never the same as the beginning).  how can you call a recap a true recap when it sometimes doesn't repeat exactly the same material the same way?  is it a loose sonata form or is there such a thing as 'scherzo form?'

[pianistimo]

can we break your question down into one scherzo at a time?  ok. the opus 31 is very hard to analyze because like 60 some of schubert's songs - it starts in one key and ends in another.  this is a sort of dual form (and harmony).  the scherzo in the sonata opus 35 is like this, also ballade opus 38, and fantasy opus 49 do the same (end in a different key,right?)

i'd say, more than technique - these crazy things require a good memory.  i hate things like this typically - but now am attracted to them because you seem to use a different part of the brain to learn them.  the fantasy/scherzo side.

this first one does appear at first to be somewhat demonic- although - 'a joke' could also be construed to simply be 'the devil is in the details' and nobody can play these seemingly straightforward pieces of chopin like the etudes or ballades or mazurkas.  one requires perhaps an element of just plain 'crazy' thinking.  how this piece holds together is truly miraculous because it keeps going off the edge and coming back - like some kind of australian boomerang.

what DOES hold the first scherzo together?

[thalberg]

I have only played the third Scherzo.

It begins by outlining a descending chromatic tetrachord in d minor.  This tetrachord is a hystorical symbol of death.



The trio bears strong resemblance to  the doxology--all people that on earth do dwell, sing to the Lord with cheerful voice etc.  Go listen to that.

For this reason, death at the beginning and the doxology in the middle, I think this piece has somewhat of a spiritual or religious theme, though I don't know quite what.

Right before the coda is a splendid example of 'heterophony' which is where you have the same melody going in two parts at two speeds.

Just a few things I can think of off the top of my head.

Also, for the trio, the pros don't play it in time--they start the downward cascades late and play them faster than tempo. 

The downward cascades are very hard and frustrating till you get the hang of them.

[pianistimo]

very interesting what you say here, thalberg.  i will listen for these things.  and, the heterophony.  (almost called it heterophoney).  i just got some new earphones last night.  it's messing with my mind.

about the first chopin scherzo - it was dedicated to a pupil - adele de furstenstin - and really became the first of it's kind.  an independent virtuoso form.  not having to be found in a sonata or symphony.  i found this info on a CD and so believe from reading this that the term 'scherzo' can also refer to a form?  chopin being the first to develop this idea.

[soderlund]

I am working on the second scherzo right now. I can say that it is a lot technically easier than I thought it would be. But I suppose some of the downward passages are really hard to get to performance standard. I have only been working on it for three weeks or something.

I don't agree with pianistimo about the memorising though. I worked very hard, and I had it almost memorised in two days. Not perfectly, of course. But I worked five hours each day on only the scherzo too. I'm saying this so perhaps some more will try it, it's really not that difficult technically, I think. I watched Zimerman played it, and it seems insane, which is even better if it looks hard but is easy. Musically though it's very hard, I think it is a piece that can sound very different depending on who's playing. Mostly because Chopin never marked any tempo changes, but it contains parts of very different character.

Perhaps I am a bit hasty here though, it might be very difficult to get to performance level. And I don't want to come out as pretentious (by the way, is that the correct word? English is not my first language) either, because I think all the scherzi are hard work. It's a very, very beautiful piece though

[pianistimo]

you are inspiring me not to think of some pieces as simply beyond my ability simply because i think i'll never memorize it (because it sounds difficult).  and, not to create static music.  i liked what you said about tempo fluctuations and character.

[ahinton]

I have only played the third Scherzo.

It begins by outlining a descending chromatic tetrachord in d minor.  This tetrachord is a hystorical symbol of death.

The opening figurations are almost one of Chopin's contributions towards the undermining of tonality (in the sense of tonal centres - what "key" is it in? It isn't in any.

Also, for the trio, the pros don't play it in time--they start the downward cascades late and play them faster than tempo. 

The downward cascades are very hard and frustrating till you get the hang of them.

I know - even the divine Martha does this. So many pianists treat those cascades as cadenza-like passages - and some of them also play them with insufficient delicacy. I'm not suggesting that they should be played rigidly, of course, but if they are played in tempo with what goes either side of them and as though integral to that entire passage rather than merely decorative embellishment, the whole makes much stronger sense.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

about the first chopin scherzo - it was dedicated to a pupil - adele de furstenstin - and really became the first of it's kind.  an independent virtuoso form.  not having to be found in a sonata or symphony.  i found this info on a CD and so believe from reading this that the term 'scherzo' can also refer to a form?  chopin being the first to develop this idea.

It was indeed a new departure, just as the first Ballade was also shortly to be. The first Scehzo is, to me, one of Chopin's most violent expressions, not only in the almost Alkanically demonic headlong rush of its outer sections but in the sheer extent of contrast between these and the central lullaby-like section; rarely would Chopin ever set two such diametrically different things in a single context.

The famous repeated "dissonant" chord near its end where he hammers home a harmony that includes E#s, F#s and Gs has a curious reflection in a much later work of his; look at the second chord before the B major section of the Polonaise-Fantaisie, Op. 61 - it's exactly the same harmony, although the context, the dynamic and the effect are, of course, quite different, rather as the metrical trills in quavers (C#s/Bs) towards the close of the fourth Scherzo (measures 889-913) may seem to suggest a kind of reminiscence of the final variation in Beethoven's Op. 109 Sonata (in the same key).

I rather think that the coda of the third Scherzo contains more than a little in the way of memory of that of the first one.

There's my couple of cents' worth.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

alistair, i enjoyed reading what you wrote a lot and wish i had time to compare the passages you mention right now.  time is of the essence.  do you suppose next time you could write as if you were writing for a magazine and include the excerpts of the music? 

[ahinton]

alistair, i enjoyed reading what you wrote a lot and wish i had time to compare the passages you mention right now.  time is of the essence.  do you suppose next time you could write as if you were writing for a magazine and include the excerpts of the music? 

Thanks, Susan, but I have no facilities to scan any music from here although you presumably have the relevant scores so can check these things out for yourself when time permits...(?)...

Best,

Alistair

[dnephi]

I have for some time felt that the 3rd scherzo's coda is longer and not as demonic as the first's, but still an exceptional excerpt of music!