And God said... "Let there be light!"

[Bob]

Except who would he have said that to if that was the first thing he did?   

Whatsmore, there wasn't any air around to transmit the sound.   

What was he doing then?  Talking to himself?  Would he have done that for everything?  Do you supose at some point he said, "Let there be paperclips,"  and there were paperclips?  Maybe his wife (if he has a wife) would have said, "Oh, just make your paperclips and be quiet about it.  That's all I ever hear.  'Let there be this.  Let there be that.'  You don't have to announce everything you're doing you know." 



(Bob is going to Hell now.  )

[rc]

Maybe God just doesn't enjoy other peoples company so he likes to talk to himself...  "Yeah Yeah, unconditional love.  I know you can't stand your in-laws. No I won't just give you a new car, God helps those who helps themselves, get a job."

Then he sighs and wonders why he created a species of whiners.

[wotgoplunk]

You can't apply logic to God! Everyone knows that! 

Let there be Sean Connery!

[lostinidlewonder]

Genesis describes the creation of earth, but not the entire Universe.

[shortyshort]

Genesis describes the creation of earth, but not the entire Universe.

So where did the light come from?
Did He/She have a big torch, (flash-light, for the Americans)

[wotgoplunk]

He flipped the Celestial Lightswitch.

[cygnusdei]

If you read the Koran there are a lot of "Let us make ....."
I don't know much about Islamic theology but that makes a lot of sense in the Trinitarian doctrine.

[prometheus]

It's because the people that wrote genesis were polytheists.

Anyway, the book is a combination of several ground texts. One is called the priestly source. Another the Yahwist source. Another is the Elohist source and the fourth the Deteronomist source. These sources were put together by the Redactor.

Here, the elohist is describing a non-anthropomorphic god, unlike the Yahwist. And the elohim is a polytheistic concept of divinity. Therefore, elohim is referred to as a plural.

Elohim refers to the complete Canaanite pantheon. As it does in texts of these religions.

[pianowelsh]

God spoke and there was light...where is the problem??  The point of the passage is that at the command of God things which were not came into being.  Thats POWER. Power beyond anyone elses ability thats for sure. Not to mentiona a demonstration of God's immense creativity. We can also note from this same passage that God created humans...yes - we didn't evolve.  We are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God.  However fallen we may be from chapter 3 of Genesis to the present day, Every man and woman is designed and created with an eternal purpose.  Gen 3:15 is a reminder that it is only in Jesus that redemption and that restoration of relationship with God is accomplished. Salvation is from God - For us...to all who put their trust in him.

As far as most translators and commentators are concerned its commonly accepted that the author of genesis is Moses.  Moses was in No way shape or form a polytheist. He acknowledged the one true God as the only God. The one who makes an everlasting covenant with his people.

[timothy42b]

Almost none of this is correct.  You don't know your bible very well. 

God spoke and there was light...where is the problem?? 

The OP is pointing out quite correctly that this and many passages allude to a plurality of Gods.  Monotheism did not evolve until centuries later.  Millenia, actually.  The OP is not addressing the power of god to create.  The OT has 100s of passages that refer to plural Gods and only insists that Yahweh is to be the only God for the Israelites; not that He is the only god.  Read it and you'll see.  Or if you can't find it I'll post a few quotes.  But I think you can find it, you've just been ignoring it. 

.

We can also note from this same passage that God created humans...yes - we didn't evolve.

 
It is very clear that the writers and redactors of Genesis thought God created a finished product, not just man and animals but mountains, valleys, seas, and plains in their final and unchanging form, just as God is final and unchanging.  Unfortunately even a casual look at our world shows mountains continuously forming and eroding, continents moving, and yes, life evolving.  The writers of Genesis were simply wrong in their world view, though they may have had some insight into spiritual matters. 

As far as most translators and commentators are concerned its commonly accepted that the author of genesis is Moses. 

No, that is just plain silly.  Nobody thinks Moses wrote anything.  All educated commentators agree these were oral tales handed down for approximately 1000 years before the conversion to writing started in 930 BC. 

Moses was in No way shape or form a polytheist. He acknowledged the one true God as the only God. The one who makes an everlasting covenant with his people.

Again, just plain silly.  The writings attributed by you to Moses, and the OT writings, make it quite clear he was a polytheist.  He just believed Yahweh was the most powerful God, and the one who made the covenant with the Jewish people.  Even casual reading must make that plain.  Look, for example, at the battle with the priests of Baal.  Nowhere do they claim Baal didn't exist, only that he was weaker than Yahweh.  Or look at Joshua's long day, when Yahweh proved his power by stopping the moon and sun (both minor Deities) from interfering in the battle. 

Do you even read the Bible?  Especially the OT? 

I have really been missing pianistimmo, thank you for filling in for her. 

[thalbergmad]

Fascinating person was Moses.

I have just finished reading a book written by two people who claimed to have found and ascended the "true" Mount Sinai. Even it is complete rubbish, it is still a good story.

I have often wondered just how close Moses was to the Pharoahs, or in fact if he was one. The theory that Moses was Akhenaten, I find particularly interesting.

Thal

[shortyshort]

Almost none of this is correct. 

I have really been missing pianistimmo, thank you for filling in for her. 

lol

[ahinton]

And God said... "Let there be light!"

...and there was light...

...but then there was a shortyshort and all the lightylights went out...

Where is that celestial electricienne Santa Susanna when you need her?...

Best,

Alistair

[pianogeek_cz]

And that's probably the closest Alistair's writing has ever come to imaginist poetry...

[shortyshort]

And God said "Let there be words, and very long words"

"And let there be words that shall only be known to Hinty"
"And let Hinty put these words in such an order, that no one else can comprehend"

The Earth was now complete.

God then had a little chuckle and said,

"Buuuurrrrrrrrppppppppppp"

[ahinton]

And that's probably the closest Alistair's writing has ever come to imaginist poetry...

Poet? Moi?? Not a chance!!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

And God said "Let there be words, and very long words"

"And let there be words that shall only be known to Hinty"
"And let Hinty put these words in such an order, that no one else can comprehend"

Did He? Really? And what were those long words? Let us examine those words which were put to shortyshort, as follows:

"And God said... "Let there be light!"

...and there was light...

...but then there was a shortyshort and all the lightylights went out...

Where is that celestial electricienne Santa Susanna when you need her?..."

Now, in terms of word length, the longest word here appears to be "electricienne" - which seems to me to be not that much longer than "shortyshort" - a mere single letter, in fact. And which of the above words is so esoteric and unfamiliar? No idea! So I wonder where the problem is, or is perceived to be. Next, let us wonder which of the above words are not in common usage and might accordingly be unfamiliar to shortshort or other regular visitors here. Which are they? Any ideas? And is anyone having any problem with the word order? (plese let us all know if so).

The Earth was now complete.

Was it really? But by whose standards? I doubt it very much...

God then had a little chuckle and said,

"Buuuurrrrrrrrppppppppppp"

Well - no one's diet is perfect at all times, one may suppose...

Best,

Alistair

[wesball94]

The Bible was written by specially chosen people. God spoke to these people and told them what to write in it. THAT is how we know that He said it. Because God is God and, therefore, immortal; He just spoke the words. He didn't NEED air to speak then. He created the universe!

[ahinton]

The Bible was written by specially chosen people. God spoke to these people and told them what to write in it. THAT is how we know that He said it. Because God is God and, therefore, immortal; He just spoke the words. He didn't NEED air to speak then. He created the universe!

And it's all as simple as that folks! What's to argue about, then?...(hmmm...)

Best,

Alistair

[Essyne]

lol

[thalbergmad]

The Bible was written by specially chosen people. God spoke to these people and told them what to write in it. THAT is how we know that He said it. Because God is God and, therefore, immortal; He just spoke the words. He didn't NEED air to speak then. He created the universe!

The Bible was EDITED by specially chosen people. Probably the same specially chosen people that killed millions to ensure that this was the only word.

Thal

[ahinton]

The Bible was EDITED by specially chosen people. Probably the same specially chosen people that killed millions to ensure that this was the only word.

I'm sorry, Thal, but I simply cannot agree. The Bible was never subject to the kind of overall editorial supervisory control that one might expect for a multi-author symposium of its nature (as I used over and over again and to no avail to try to point out to the departed [from this forum, at any rate] pianistimo); this is indeed one of its major flaws as "the word of" anyone - too much thinly spread creative autonomy and too little general co-ordination of thoughts, ideas, historical facts and even fantasies.

Best,

Alistair

[Essyne]

Constantine, anyone?

[Bob]

It's funny that Pianistimo is gone, but the debates seem to rage on like they used to.

[thalbergmad]

It's funny that Pianistimo is gone, but the debates seem to rage on like they used to.

Hardly of the same intensity old chap.

The forum has been reasonably tambo free lately.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The Bible was never subject to the kind of overall editorial supervisory control that one might expect for a multi-author symposium of its nature

OK, i change the word "edited" to "harmonized".

A word that any Sorabjian would identify with.

Thal

[ahinton]

OK, i change the word "edited" to "harmonized".

A word that any Sorabjian would identify with.

Doubtless, but I was not seeking to criticise the use of the word "edited" in the Biblical context concerned. As far as I know (and I admit not to being a Biblical scholar), the Bible as we know it never had a single overall commissioning editor or anyone in a similar capacity who (a) decided who should contribute what to it and when and/or (b) exerted editorial judgement over the contributions prior to publication; the Bible as we know it is accordingly flawed on that premise alone and it is beyond all doubt that no one was ever in any position to decide that the end result would or could be regarded as "the word of God" or of anyone else in particular. In so saying, I do not at all seek to undermine the Bible as what it is but to try to place it into a more appropriate and meaningful perspective than do most of those who seem determined passively and unquestioningly to accept it, precisely as it has been passed down to us, as the word of God, the whole word of God and nothing but the word of God, so help me - er - um - God. I should perhaps add that it is not just because I am a non-Christian that I cannot accept this unflinchingly dogmatic and unthinking attitude towards the Bible on the part of certain particular persuasions of Christian.

We know far too little and there are things still to be discovered and being discovered that will constantly throw this blindly believing attitude off its rather pointless and self-defeating course.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As far as I know (and I admit not to being a Biblical scholar), the Bible as we know it never had a single overall commissioning editor

Indeed not, and i do not recall seeing suggestions here that it did.

The revisions, translations and editions are unknown.

Thal

[ahinton]

As far as I know (and I admit not to being a Biblical scholar), the Bible as we know it never had a single overall commissioning editor

Indeed not, and i do not recall seeing suggestions here that it did.

No, indeed not, yet the complacent and on occasion arrogantly self-assured way in which some people write about it is such that one could be forgiven for assuming that the entire work was organised down to the last full stop and thus holds as good today as it supposedly did when its entire collected chapters were first published.

The revisions, translations and editions are unknown.

Well, no, by no means all of them are entirely unknown, but the fact that there remain many gaps in our knowledge of such matters nevertheless validates your point.

Santa Susanna di Pennsilvania's absence would seem to leave this relatively argument-free here, unless some like-minded forum member is disposed to express sentiments similar to hers - and that's not necessarily intended to represent an invitation...

Best,

Alistair

[wesball94]

So where did the light come from?
Did He/She have a big torch, (flash-light, for the Americans)

I've said it once and I'll say it again, GOD DOES NOT NEED ANYTHING TO CREATE MATTER FOR THE KNOWN UNIVERSE!!! HE'S GOD! HE SHOULDN'T NEED A "TORCH" TO CREATE THE SUN!!!
<This is getting annoying>

[m19834]

*summons Alistair* 

[thalbergmad]

<This is getting annoying>

What is annoying is when someone digs up a pointless thread that has been peacefully dead for some 7 months, only to post some unsubstantiated tambo banging comments.

Using the word shouldn't does however leave some doubt.

Thal

[shortyshort]

*summons Alistair* 

[tanman]

*summons Alistair* 

*summons pianistimo 

[concerto_love]

Pianistimo..... geesz, hope she's here

[db05]

Let there be sense in this thread!

[tanman]

Let there be religious arguing in this thread!

[communist]

let pianistimo go on a role about this

[morningstar]

Let this thread be buried again...please!

[Bob]

What happened here?  (Bob scans the ancient thread that is now breaking up into one sentence chunks).

Hmmm....

What was God doing before there was light then?  Just sitting around in the dark?  How long was he doing that and how much time passed before he decided to invent light?

And what if God ripped off the whole light idea from someone else?  What's if a stolen idea?  What if light could be copyrighted?

There was a virgin-birth shark in the news the other day.  Female shark has a baby shark all by herself.  (So the scientists say.)  Does that make it a "Shark of God?"  Or maybe it's some type of inbreeding.... Hmm....

And wouldn't God have a wife?  Wouldn't that make sense?  If he's got son... but no wife?  He just decides one day and picks someone to birth his kid?  Is that polite?  Who does something like that?  Seems a little bit imposing.  And imagine if there were more kids after that.  Ones that aren't a son of God -- That's not a bit of a shadow to live in?  Or if there were -- "Oooh... I'm sorry.  You're the second Son of God... Yeah...."  Didn't the first child at that time inherit everything?  "Looks like you came that close to inheriting... everything!  Bet that sucks, doesn't it?"  Would there be some sibling rivalry?  Some competition?  See who can make the most wine or walk on water the longest or something?  To impress... who?  Their father?  How's Joseph going to feel about this?  Assuming they really didn't know where that baby came from.  And assuming Mary didn't step out without anyone knowing.  What's Joseph going to think?  The all-powerful, most divine thing in the universe, that will ever be... impregnates his wife.  "Um, gee, thanks God."  Imagine how messed up the family dynamics would be after that.  And imagine what everyone else would have thought.  What if Jesus were black, for example, but his parents were white?  And he goes around saying, "This is Joseph my dad, but God is my biological dad."  Oh.. sure he is Jesus.  Sure he is.

Maybe that will break the one liner trend and get Pianistismo back to reply.

Genesis describes the creation of earth, but not the entire Universe.

Good point.  Maybe God pulled the earth out of a big box.  Just add light.  Add some water.  It's like a big chia pet maybe.

[tanman]

Hmmm....



And what if God ripped off the whole light idea from someone else?  What's if a stolen idea?  What if light could be copyrighted?

I sense another what if post/thread coming along...

[Bob]

What if you're right?

What if God got sued for copyright infringement?

What if there was a way to get royalities from light?

[tanman]

what if none of this actually happened?
what if the story of the creation of the world was actually symbolic?

[morningstar]

What if...THIS THREAD WAS BURIED BEFORE PIANISTIMO GETS BACK?
Sorry, caps.

[lucylucy]

as i can see...u don't believe in god ?

[morningstar]

as i can see...u don't believe in god ?

asking for the thead to be buried does not mean I don't believe, just that this thread could turn ugly if left in use long enough. btw many christians may find that offensive..little hint for the future.

[lucylucy]

asking for the thead to be buried does not mean I don't believe, just that this thread could turn ugly if left in use long enough. btw many christians may find that offensive..little hint for the future.

i wasn"t talking to u lol !
and i'm not christian lol !

[tanman]

i wasn"t talking to u lol !
and i'm not christian lol !

then who are you talking to?

and please don't piss people off in the religious threads. it will result in MASSIVE blasting.

[lucylucy]

then who are you talking to?

and please don't piss people off in the religious threads. it will result in MASSIVE blasting.

i was talking to Bob
OKAY ? i'm not pissing off anyone ?
pfff leave me alone 

[tanman]

i was talking to Bob
OKAY ? i'm not pissing off anyone ?
pfff leave me alone 

okay