Anyone else consider rap to not be "real" music?

[ThePhoenixEffect]

To me it just doesn't seem like real music at all.  I don't want to sound like an "elitist" that doesn't like anything thats "contemporary", but to me rap is just "noise".

[ayahav]

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's just noise, but I must say this:

A rapper would fit a lot better at a speech-and-debate tournament in the oral interpretation of literature category, than at a conert...

after all, all they do is speak incomprehensible text out loud....

[DarkWind]

*raises hand*


Me and my dad both agree that rap is nothing more but noise. He once gave me a good idea, that I should compose an unbelievably good piece, beautiful melody, rich harmonics, and call it "Just Noise." Since most things today like rap are considered "music," then this piece would be nothing more but noise.

[faulty_damper]

Rap is music of African origin.  It was brought over through the middle passage and survived the "peculiar institution" and has changed to this noise as you call it.  It has deep cultural roots.  The rap or gangster culture with the sagging pants is from the black dance origins of the early 20th century that has continued on.  Do they know it is part of their past culture.  No.  They think it's new.  It's not.  In fact, many of popular cultural activities, the practitioners of it, do not know the origins.  They just pick up on what others do and imitate it.

It is music.  Rap is a form of music.  To fully understand it, you must know the historic context of rap.  It is a highly percussive form of music.  Just replace the "black person this, *** you that, rape the pregnant dog this, kill the police that, gat down yo' homies, blah, ba-blah, bla, bla-blah", with percussive drumming and you'll see the music.  In other words, attempt to ignore the foul language.  You'll see the music there.

[faulty_damper]

I like how the censors have censored those words.  Anyway, rap is highly rhythmic music and highly complex, at least the elite forms of rap, not the toned down gangster rap.

[Shagdac]

I don't think anyone could argue that RAP is NOT music. I think perhaps that statement is made instead of "I do not care for RAP".  When the Beatles first came out, alot of parents were saying the same thing about their music..."that's NOT music, it's just a bunch of long-haired hippie boys screaming"!!! But the comment was made not really because it was not music, but because it was different and some of the older generation at that time did not care for that type.

What is music to one, may not be considered music to another. Almost anything can be considered music...rain beating rhythmically down on top of a car, the sound of a waterfall.....in fact add words to it, and you not only have music, but you have a song.

I personally do like RAP, however I know alot of people who do. I think a better statement than "RAP is not music"....would be, "RAP is not music I enjoy". I think that is what most people actually mean when they say the former, it just is stated that way.

Kinda funny, (my family gets SO tired of always hearing me practice)...my son would always tell me, "it wouldn't be so bad if you'd play REAL music"...what he meant was popular music, top 40, RAP, Beatles, songs HE was familiar with. But I knew that he wasn't "actually" saying that classical piano music wasn't REAL, he was just stating it that way as it is not his cup of tea. Just like RAP is not mine. But as far as being music, of course it is, and thank goodness there are so many different types and styles, after all, how boring if all music was the same. I certainly don't care for ALL types...but am grateful I have so many to choose from!

S  (just my opinion)

[Shagdac]

Sorry....correction I meant to write...I DO NOT like RAP.

[Beet9]

Hmmm...
Well, James Joyce onced defined art as being 'static' and not 'kinetic'. Meaning that true art doesn't inspire disgust or desire.  Which rap certainly does at least one of those things for most people.  
Other music, not necessarily classical, will make you just stop and listen without being drawn to it by primitive instincts.  That is true music.  

Therefore, you are correct, rap is not 'real' music.  

[xenon]

I am an elitist.  I do not believe that any form of "music" can be rightly justified as such unless it is classical (ie Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionistic, etc.).

In other words, classical is the only form of music to me.  Anything else less falls below classical in the hierarchy of "music".

Yes, I am riding my high horse, Hmoll.  You don't have to point that out.  However, I hate horses...

[ayahav]

music has to appeal to the primal senses.... it's in every musician and it talks to the suubconcious whether you like that or not... I'm sorry, Joyce, but music is a supreme art that has to touch on your priitive intuitions..... sorry..... i can't agree with you.

[greyrune]

Ayahav, i completely agree with you there.  If music were to inspire no urge in us deeper than simply appreciation it wouldn't be great art by any means.  It may be decent music but nothing incredible.

As for Xenon, how can you possibly say this?  Music has been around for so much longer than Classical.  I lived in Africa for a time and their music is thousands of years old.  Its mainly drums mixed with often incredibly complex vocal harmonies.  This music is gorgeous and simple.  How can you possible pick one stage in the evolution of music that has been in progress since man first hit a rock with another rock in some rhythm, and define that as the only "real" music there is.  You can't simply dissmiss all that has come before and after it.  I know you realise you're being arrogant but i thought i'd say that anyway.

As for rap, yeah it has to be music, i personally don't get on with most of it.  If you listen to much of the more underground rap, especially french for some reason, their beats are far more complex, they actually change with verse, chorus, bridge, often even two diferent verse beats.  Then the rhythm of the rapping can be much more complex too, if you think of the words as a drum rhythm they can be really quite impressive.

[willcowskitz]

Rap is music. Rap that plays on MTV is products. Or any shallow pop music for that matter. I have also heard French rap and can say it has more musical elements than the boring OOMB OOMB TSIH TSIH with harsh lyrics that the giant companies want to feed to the average person. This "music" only has enough musical structures to it to satisfy the simplified definition of music, and for most people this is enough, either because their musicality has been suppressed by continuous aggressive flat signals from around them, including pure entertaining music, elevator music, music used in commercials etc., so that they no longer know the true potential of music, or, because they don't know of better. The music industry gives them their monthly dose of monotonous drumming or naive melodies that click to your mind in an instance, showing only how little content they possess.

In short, I don't think there exists a genre that couldn't be called music (or maybe I just didn't find it yet), but capitalism sucks all creativity out of any potent material sooner or later. Radical ideas or inspiration simply aren't economically profitable, in other words unsafe to invest in. So we can't really judge a musical genre by what we hear on radio/TV, cause that's where money regulates the pace.

[ahmedito]

Its strange the way topics get recycled here in the piano forum. If you look back, youll find at least 5 versions of this thread.

All Ill say is that, after John Cage, EVERYTHING is music or art.... although everyone has his or her own preferences.... I for one must say that there is SOME rap that Ive heard which I like....

[rubleski]

rap is awesome

[Spatula]

I smell a flame war  

[Max]

I like how the censors have censored those words.  Anyway, rap is highly rhythmic music and highly complex, at least the elite forms of rap, not the toned down gangster rap.

Hear hear.

[klavierkonzerte]

 i totally agree, rap is not music it's just noise like any gener that isn't classical.

[blindmouth]

from what i remember, music is just the organization of sounds so technically rap is music (check dictionary.com or any dictionary for that matter if you dont believe me.)

im also going to have disagree with the status quo here: the lyrics in a rap 'song' are just as important as the beat that plays beneath.  i feel that the beat is used to define a primal feeling, if you will, and that the lyrics articulate that feeling into a coherent subject matter.  im not suggesting that the subject matter is socially or politically relevent (Lil Jon comes to mind, for those of the MTV generation who do know him.)

while im on the subject of the forms of rap, id also like to address gangsta rap. back in the late 80s/early 90s,  gangsta rap was the window into a house plagued (and still is) by economical/political/social issues (for those who could see it.) unfortunately, the mainstream's reaction towards this life was split in two: those who did not like to peer into the window and those who did. Those who did not like what they saw condemned it for alluring innocents into that 'lifestyle,' and those who were enthralled by this way of living mimicked the image. to conclude, few cared about what was going on inside the house; all that mattered was what they saw through the window.

today gangsta rap has been relegated into a being that aggrandizes the egos of millions of people (as well as the rappers themselves) through negative ideology (degrading others.)  those who might rebut this statement may say that gangsta rap of the 80s (ice cube) did the same thing, but i argue at least those rappers agreed that there was a problem with the way they were living. today rappers seem enthralled by the 'thug life.' (50 cent, ja rule, post incarcerated 2pac come to mind)

id like to point out a couple of things here: i am not condemning gangsta rap because i do like it. i dont embrace the lifestyle tho.  second, gangsta rap is music no matter what some of you guys think; it arouses passionate feelings in the listener. im i saying gangsta rap is bad? no, if you understand it. but thats the hard part. im sure many of you guys dont like atonal works, but you have to appreciate that it exists because it reveals the history of the human condition.

[clef]

 i totally agree, rap is not music it's just noise like any gener that isn't classical.

I think that this person is either ignorant, prejudice, a bit dull or very young.  Pick one...

anyway last year I would have told you that rap isn't music, but this year I would have to tell you that I cannot ever give the truth about something I don't know the truth about, in other terms I would have to research rap alot to tell you interesting things for both sides of the arguments.  however I would say like many others, that it is music, and you could probably get away with calling it alternative music, and other things, but it is still music I suppose.

I personally don't like rap, I hate the whole urban/rap ghetto movement of the late 20th centuary, and probably most people who are part of it aren't very bright, but I'm sure there are intelligent people out there who have their reasons, and thats good enough for me.  even if the motive is wrong, and even if it includes many things I hate, rap must be defined as music, as music is a very general term.

[gorbee natcase]

What is the spirit of the music what are its intentions, Much rap is glamorizing crime and hating certain groups in society and is generaly music with too much attitude

It discredits its self 

[cowgirl]

rap is not music at all.  it's "retards attempting poetry"! 

cowgirl

[rob47]

Har har.

You 'musicians' and your 'opinions' 

[crazy for ivan moravec]

im a die hard classical lover, but i do consider rap as music simply because there is an element of music present in it- rhythm, and probably some others. although i wouldn't wanna say it's very artistic bcoz i have a different criteria/standards for what artistry is but i do believe it is music.

[steve jones]

To me it just doesn't seem like real music at all.  I don't want to sound like an "elitist" that doesn't like anything thats "contemporary", but to me rap is just "noise".

The problem with rap music is that its the most commerical genre on the entire planet. Rap, Hip Hop, whatever you want to call it, it about making money and nothing more. It is absolutely nothing to do with artistic expression.

So in this respect, no it isnt real music.

However, physically it is just as much musical as anything. It has musical structures, rhythms, melodies, lyrics etc. It is music, unfortunately! Infact, more of the elements of rap are taken from other records - sampled break beats are used for the drums, little guitar and brass funk hooks accompany the music (sometime entire choruses or classical and jazz extracts).

I think its appeal is quite simple. It captures todays young for several reasons:

- It takes no effort at all to understand. There is no challenges to overcome to appreciate the music (other than that of taste)

- It is even easier to participate in. If you can talk, you can rap (maybe not very well, but then again neither can Diddy)

- Rap music nutures the adolescent mentality. All primevil male emotions and desires are catered for in hip hop, and this gains the music and the performers alot of respect. Adults might think of it as low brow crap, but to a 15 year old, the tales of sexual orgy's, gun slinging and pimping is all very appealing in a fantasy sense.

[randmc]

I find that people often dislike what their minds cannot comprehend. Rap is more poetry than music, but if it has a beat and a melody than it is classified as music in today's society. I can see where most of you are coming from, which leads me to think that most of you are ignorant of the real definitions of the hip-hop and rap cultures. Most of the rap you hear would be called 'mainstream' rap. I do admit that mainstream rap (like any other popular music) is inevitably "watered-down" as to reach out to all listeners-smart or dumb. Gangster rap is no more than memoirs of an under priveleged man coming from the ghetto's of society. It is pretty much impossible to make a final judgement about rap until you have heard all of it (which I doubt any of you have).

Note: For those of you who didn't know, Rap and Hip-Hop are two different kinds of music. They both have some similar traits, but then again so does every other type of music. Rap is for listening, observing, and reflecting upon. Hip-Hop is for singing to, dancing to, and for every day enjoyment.

[zheer]

I have heard a lot of rap music, but recently i got rid of £100 pounds worth of rap CD in the bin. It started to get no my nerves, it basically shamed all black people and white people, and in all honesty they make money by glamorizing all the bad things in society.
    Its not a good idea to put music in class category, but i can safely say that rap is targeted at the less fortunate people in society, and the artist make money out of these people whom they claim to be.

[steve jones]

It is pretty much impossible to make a final judgement about rap until you have heard all of it (which I doubt any of you have).

You'd be surprised!

Making generalised statements like that is a dangerous think. Its kind of analogous to telling a group of black youths that you 'doubt they've ever much classical music'.

[stevie]

Har har.

You 'musicians' and your 'opinions' 

hahh da zubdued FURY

[randmc]

You'd be surprised!

Making generalised statements like that is a dangerous think. Its kind of analogous to telling a group of black youths that you 'doubt they've ever much classical music'.

It's pretty safe to make this generalization because I have proof that no one has listened to every rap song and album on this Earth. I have a private collection of self-made rap and hip-hop albums in my bedroom that I'm sure no one has listened to.

[pianorama]

(Most) rap is a low form of music... To me, it's just combinations of noise, sound and beats, which just barely defines it as music. If you listen to the actual music (not the lyrics) it is mostly just a beat. There is very little, or no melody. The thing that disturbes me most are the lyrics. It's mostly just nonsensical monotonous ramblings and swearing. A lot of rap lyrics is just talking to the beat.
It definatley is music, but I would rather listen to Maksim, and I'm no Maksim lover.

[cfortunato]

No, it's music.  It isn't music I like, but it's music.  The words and rapping aren't music - the rhythm is because it's rhythm.  Just like lyrics of pop songs aren't music.

In trying to define "music" I've kind of decided that any sound that is created for it's own aesthetic sake is music, because I can't think of any other definition that works

[randmc]

Like I said, most of you have not listened to real rap music.
Pianorama, isn't most (if not all) music just combinations of noise, sound and beats? By stating that rap is 'just nonsensical monotonous ramblings and swearing' has just eliminated all validity in your reply. But don't fret, you, like many other part-takers in this thread, do not have much prior knowledge of the subject.


P.S. How come I never see any threads questioning the musicality of punk rock, or metal, or pop, or electronic, or alternative, or even folk?

[Derek]

I'm sure I've seen threads questioning the musicality of all of those.

I do think however that classical music (encompassing baroque, romantic, modern, even some post-modern, I suppose) has different reasons behind its creation. Namely the composers have an assumption as they are writing music that there is something to be found or discovered with sound. If this were not the case people wouldn't have flown off on such wild tangents as atonality. We are realizing today, I think even in academic circles (though less so) that what we discover in music is not like science but has much more to do with the individuality of say an author. Yet there remains an infinite number of things to be said even with familiar sounding harmony.

For the more conservative examples of classical composers today, even those who would consider themselves universalist but who have at least some conservative viewpoint in their aesthetic, these composers not only feel there is something new to be discovered but believe that Beauty is a real thing and not an entirely arbitrary, irrational response.


It is these things which separate classical music from most modern popular music.

It is of course true that unwittingly, a modern popular artist might be searching for something beautiful and might succeed,

but the rest of the time, they are indeed writhing lewdly around, rapping about hoes, bitches, and killing cops, doing drugs, and a whole host of other horrifying things.

That doesn't make their art NOT music, it simply makes it vulgar. It seems to me any self respecting human being should prefer music which does not glorify vulgarity, sin, or violence.

There is of course a bit of subjectivity there---instrumental boogie woogie could be construed to some to have "vulgar" rhythm in it, and since the genre was invented in bars the association would seem reasonable to parents of children growing up in the era of boogie. However since it is instrumental there is no objective reason to make these associations, and boogie woogie merely becomes a life affirming, even beautiful style of music for those who enjoy listening.

A lot of melodic metal is also primarily life affirming. In the polished mainstream ones we find very little imagery or lyrics that glorify satanic things or vulgar things, or what have you. You merely have fantastical, gothic lyrics reminiscent of poe or a gothic horror novel perhaps, combined with gorgeous instrumental music.


Allow me to add, like most on this thread, I know little about rap. I actually like the pure sound of rap, but so far I have not yet heard any examples of rap which are not vulgar and which do not glorify violence. I suppose this is because they are very "honest" about their lives...but then...who said that criminals couldn't posess the virtue of honesty?

[steve jones]

It's pretty safe to make this generalization because I have proof that no one has listened to every rap song and album on this Earth. I have a private collection of self-made rap and hip-hop albums in my bedroom that I'm sure no one has listened to.

Indeed, but would you suggest that it's necessary to hear the entire rep to understand the style and its subgenres? This seems to be what you were eluding to.

I think, as with most styles, that a sample can be satisfactorally representative - you dont need to hear every piece written during the Baroque period to understand the music.

Id say that I have a broad enough knowledge of rap and hip hop music (along with other urban styles) to justify the comments made in this thread. Its easy to prejudge the people on this forum, assuming they are born and raised on classical music and just dont 'get' anything else.

My point was that this is a dangerous assumption to make, first and foremost because its completely incorrect.

[randmc]

Indeed, but would you suggest that it's necessary to hear the entire rep to understand the style and its subgenres? This seems to be what you were eluding to.

I think, as with most styles, that a sample can be satisfactorally representative - you dont need to hear every piece written during the Baroque period to understand the music.

Id say that I have a broad enough knowledge of rap and hip hop music (along with other urban styles) to justify the comments made in this thread. Its easy to prejudge the people on this forum, assuming they are born and raised on classical music and just dont 'get' anything else.

My point was that this is a dangerous assumption to make, first and foremost because its completely incorrect.

I do think it necessary to hear the entire rep so as not to make the mistake of assuming you know all about the music. Understanding the music is different from judging the music. A majority of these repliers are judging the music; claiming that it is only about drugs, sex, pimping, cars, money, etc. when in actuality, it is much more.

[Derek]

I do think it necessary to hear the entire rep so as not to make the mistake of assuming you know all about the music. Understanding the music is different from judging the music. A majority of these repliers are judging the music; claiming that it is only about drugs, sex, pimping, cars, money, etc. when in actuality, it is much more.

Could you give me some examples of rap that do not feature all those things? I do like the pure sound of rap, but as it does, at least in mainstream varities of it, glorify all sorts of terrible things, I do not listen to it out of principle.

But if there exist some rap artists who realize that English does indeed have a rich vocabulary to use for expressive purposes, who write interesting/thoughtful lyrics, I'd love to read/hear them!

That they write about their difficult lives is fine, all artists do. But my problem with mainstream rap is that it makes criminality seem COOL or mysterious or fun. And it is none of those things.

I was in a restaurant today which always plays MTV on the tv. I looked up at it, what did I see?
writhing bodies.  guns and bullets spilled out on a table.  people walking through dark allies.  some guy driving an expensive car.

Okay okay, so this is the mainstream. Where are all these rap artists who are respectable as well as honest?

[4tissimo]

Denotatively, physicists say music consists of "regular" vibrations and consequently most rap doesn't qualify.  Rap, as practiced in the U.S., is essentianlly rhythmic recitation, lacking melodic/harmonic and sometimes even formal structure.  The only Rap I've ever cared for was Bart Simpson's Yellow Rap CD.  Lisa's tune on it about feminine empowerment is terrific.  The rest of rap is nothing I'd ever spend any money on.

[bearzinthehood]

MTV isn't rap just like VH1 isn't rock.  The whole music TV concept is crap and I spit on it.

[emmdoubleew]

Well, James Joyce onced defined art as being 'static' and not 'kinetic'.

Therefore, you are correct, rap is not 'real' music.  

Of course, if James Joyce says it, it must be true right?

https://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Right?

When Rites of Spring was first performed it wasn't "music."
When the Beatles first arrived on the scene it wasn't "music."
Now rap isn't "music."

It has strong rythmic foundations with clear African-American roots, it is percussive music. You may not like it, and you may not like the message that some rap tries to pass, but once you get passed the lyrics, it is clearly music.

And here, you know how we can do this? Foreign rap:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005HU2/ref=m_art_li_3/103-3296015-9090214?s=music&v=glance&n=5174

Listen to the samples.

[donjuan]

Rap used to bug me, because like 5-10 years ago, it was everywhere!  But nowadays, people dont like it as much.  Therefore, I dont hear it everyday, so it doesnt bother me so much.   

Just listen to how those McDonalds commercials have changed over time!  I think they changed the target age of those things since there was a big baby boom in the mid 80's.  in 1990, we had Ronald McDonald dancing around, in mid to late 90's they had that "all beef patties special sauce..." saying and then after 2000, they started doing that stupid rap "ba dup ba ba baaaa" thing.  Lately, they have been doing techno, hiphop, R+B, and pop versions of that same 'ba dup...' theme.  Nowadays, we also have movies about gay cowboys, so that should really show you how open stuff is getting in the fine arts.

So what does this mean?  Rap had it's time.  Of course it's music, but obviously not very good music, because once those kids born in mid 1980s grew up, the McDonalds advertisers had to change their music, because generally, people were growing out that stage and getting tired of it.

There you go!  Proof (not just an opinion) that rap is not very good music.  You know why classical music will never go out of style?  many people grow up and listen to it in their adult life, and then never grow out of it!  It's just that good!

Music like rap is just that phase adolescents go through when their brains are still forming and they think they need to listen to something old people don't, just to set themselves apart.  These people will grow old, have kids, and those kids will have some new form of crappy music style adults dont listen to... vicious cycle!  That's why music has been sucking so much in the past century!  ^%&*ing negative feedback loop going on here

[bearzinthehood]

You know why classical music will never go out of style?

Oh, I don't know.  Maybe because it's not in style and therefore can't go out of style.

[Derek]

Hmm that says something about music like Opeth (death metal) because I'm confident I'll still be listening to it when I'm in my 90's, just like classical music.

[steve jones]

I do think it necessary to hear the entire rep so as not to make the mistake of assuming you know all about the music. Understanding the music is different from judging the music. A majority of these repliers are judging the music; claiming that it is only about drugs, sex, pimping, cars, money, etc. when in actuality, it is much more.

I know what you're saying yes. Rap is a style that is so easy to stereotype like this, but to be fair, they have no one to blame but themselves. The companies who back the commercial rap artists dont seem to mind to much.

I mean, how about this recent fad (well, not so recent!) of rap porn? Many a commerical artist has gotten involved, and it is stuff like this that will tarnish the entire style.

So I can understand people opinions. The kind of rap music that 99.9% of the population hear is nothing but money spinning garbage. I feel totally sound about saying that. But like you wisely point out, if you look under the surface, there is definately rap music that has more substance and depth. It is just greatly over shadowed by the rubbish.

[musik_man]

People listen to rap as music; therefore, it is music.  Pretty simple.

[Derek]

I think of it more as poetry accompanied by music. The focal point is generally the rhymes and the rhythm, rather than a coherent whole exhibiting melody, rhythm and harmony all operating in concert.  That doesn't necessarily diminish its quality.  I'm still hoping someone will direct me to an artist whose lyrics are not disgraceful, then I would certainly listen with an open mind (to rap).

[randmc]

I think of it more as poetry accompanied by music. The focal point is generally the rhymes and the rhythm, rather than a coherent whole exhibiting melody, rhythm and harmony all operating in concert.  That doesn't necessarily diminish its quality.  I'm still hoping someone will direct me to an artist whose lyrics are not disgraceful, then I would certainly listen with an open mind (to rap).

Here are some examples: Common-not all of his music is good, but alot of it is; J. Ivy-he rhymes about love and different issues in the world; Kanye West-rhymes about some important topics, but otherwise more mainstream crap; Rhymefest-again, rhymes about different issues in the world today; the Welfare Poets, GLC, Floetry. Need I go on?

[pianorama]

Like I said, most of you have not listened to real rap music.
Pianorama, isn't most (if not all) music just combinations of noise, sound and beats? By stating that rap is 'just nonsensical monotonous ramblings and swearing' has just eliminated all validity in your reply. But don't fret, you, like many other part-takers in this thread, do not have much prior knowledge of the subject.


P.S. How come I never see any threads questioning the musicality of punk rock, or metal, or pop, or electronic, or alternative, or even folk?

Sorry this has taken me so long but.....

You make a good point but I once read a book, and there was a father, who was an artist, and he once said to his daughter,
 "A painting is more than a sum of its parts." This applies to many things. For example, some sheep, a blue sky and a bunch of green grass isn't simply those things combined, you have a beautiful sunny meadow. A roof, walls, floors, furniture and windows aren't just those things together, you have a comforting home. This applies to music too. In most forms of music, you don't have simply many combinations of sounds and beats, you have a song. When I hear (most) rap I'm afraid I only hear many sounds.
And how does saying that rap is 'just monotonous ramblings and swearing' invalidate my reply?

[randmc]

And how does saying that rap is 'just monotonous ramblings and swearing' invalidate my reply?

Because it obviously shows that you are ignorant of true rap music, and that it is actually poetry with the addition of beats, harmonies and melodies.

Just because it does not meet your approval or standards of music does not mean it is not.

[zheer]

.

Just because it does not meet your approval or standards of music does not mean it is not.

  We have Rap music in my country, and these rapers are 50-60 year old men living up the mountain raping about god knows what.

     Anyway nothing wrong with Rap, its just when rapers talk about killing him/her doing drugs, saying my n***r this my n***r that, that it becomes crap and not poetry. Its about attitude and most of them have bad attitude, for example M & M, this guy raps about haw he haets his own mother and makes money from it, then he sings a song about killing his girlfriend, you cant possibly call that poetry. However i must also add that there are some Rap ballads that are really nice to listen to.

[cfortunato]

How about the Talking Blues?  Is that an early form of rap?  If not, why not?

Or is Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues the first rap song?