What qualifies for Atrocity

[illuminist]

what is atrocity?

it interests me that notably the National Socialists have always been targeted for crimes against humanity, yet it's a recurring theme throughout all empires/nations and cultures

in terms of a political model that exemplifies murder without lucid explanation, well first  genocide has and will always be committed throughout history, look at what happened to the native americans during the American revolution, you cannot tell me they didn't get screwed over to put it blunt as with the aboriginals of Australia, Joseph Stalin  launched the Great Purge (also known as the "Great Terror"), which was a campaign to purge the Communist Party of people accused of corruption or treachery; he extended it to the military and other sectors of Soviet society. Targets were often executed, imprisoned in Gulag labor camps or exiled. In the years following, millions of ethnic minorities were also deported killing far more than a mere 6 million jews if you are looking for numbers to justify a nations crimes, look at the efforts attempted to establish colonial power by the British Empire - they instigated the same racial prejudices as the nazi's whence establishing power and control in the name of the crown(india and africa as a notable example), another brilliant example would have to be the native's of New Zealand(the maoris) when they had settled there they committed acts of cannibalism eating the actual native inhabitants of the land(the moriori's.

so you see - the concentration camps was not a relatively new idea nor was the attempt to justify and exterminate a entire race - realistically how else do you think the nazis managed to assume political power and control? without having basis of history of previous empires of which to model their goals.

criticize National Socialism as much as you want for the atrocities that were committed under it's banner, yet it has been done over and over again throughout history throughout all cultures


What does everyone else think?

[scottmcc]

what qualifies for trolling?  is it multiple posts pseudo-defending the nazis?  or is it something more?

[Bob]

I've run out of milk.  If I don't stock up soon, I will find that atrochious tomorrow.  What torture!  Yep, it can't get much worse than that. 

[ahinton]

My piano playing (or at least it would if I did any)...

Best,

Alistair

[go12_3]

I think atrocity will occur in the human race no matter what time element we are at.  I think is it a concept within our minds that makes atrocity if we but allow it to.  What we need to focus upon is Art, Music and Literature to enable us to arise  from the so called atrocities in humanity.  We can look around us and there are atrocity in the world.  But , I believe that when we seek for goodness and enlightenment, then our world and humanity will be a much better place for us and furture generations.  What we need to keep in mind is that we can learn from the histories of what mankind has done, and then concentrate what the present, the nows, and the hereafters, would offer and therefore be benefical to all humanity.  I believe that respect, tolerance, kindness and love are the key elements to rid  atrocity.  And hopefully that peace will prevail upon this earth as humankind continues to progress and become more unitied  in purpose.

best wishes,

go12_3

[illuminist]

Well said Go, i couldn't agree with you more here.

like i said before and i will say it again, there is no way to justify racial prejudice of which without a doubt the nazi's were a victim of.

yet all i am trying to point out is this same crime has been committed countless times by nearly every empire or nation, as for an example the aboriginee's of australia, the english settlers(mainly the aristocrats) used birth control on the natives to establish control over a situation of which they deemed a problem that has to be dealt with, how did they deal with the problem, i will tell you, out of naive speculation it was assumed that by inbreeding with  those of european blood, over the generations they could eventually solve the problem of the native inhabitants of which they were trying to exterminate a race purely on the basis of prejudice. how is this any different from what had happened to the jews.

[michel dvorsky]

Well said Go, i couldn't agree with you more here.

like i said before and i will say it again, there is no way to justify racial prejudice of which without a doubt the nazi's were a victim of.

yet all i am trying to point out is this same crime has been committed countless times by nearly every empire or nation, as for an example the aboriginee's of australia, the english settlers(mainly the aristocrats) used birth control on the natives to establish control over a situation of which they deemed a problem that has to be dealt with, how did they deal with the problem, i will tell you, out of naive speculation it was assumed that by inbreeding with  those of european blood, over the generations they could eventually solve the problem of the native inhabitants of which they were trying to exterminate a race purely on the basis of prejudice. how is this any different from what had happened to the jews.

I hope you get ebola.

[richard black]

No, Michael, ebola's not good - he'll pass it on to someone else. Couldn't it be something slower and less transmissible?

Back back on topic, I can't for the life of me see any possible justification for the statement that the Nazis were _victims_ of racial prejudice. I really hope that's a mistake.

[Bob]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+Atrocity+&aq=f&oq=

Apparently it has to be shocking.

[michel dvorsky]

It's beneath the dignity of civilized people to respond to this Nazi-sympathizing, fascist crackpot with anything other than contempt and derision.

[illuminist]

In no way do i sympathise with what crimes against humanity the nazi's supported, so before you state such a prejudice against my opinion, i suggest you keep you're politically correct mouth shut(before you get ebola)

i will say it again and hopefully someone actually reads what i am typing. doesn't anyone recognize the justification for exterminating a race did not begin with National Socialism(clearly not), i will say it once more and only once with a notable example - the Native aboriginee's of Australia faced the extermination of their entire race due to the english settler's belief of them being a inferior specimen to be blunt and that is a fact, how did they enact exactly what was firmly held as truth? - they ignorantly believed by inbreeding with those of european blood they would eventually after the 3rd or 4th generation destroy their entire race by pseudo-genetics (huh? what's that ) not only that they also detained the aboriginee's in camps(concentration camps eh?) to keep hold on the native's population - hence making it easier to act on what was trying to be achieved

although we can definitely agree it's not to the same degree of what the nazi's were trying to implement, needless to say the same justification for the exact same result and cause was and has been enacted countless times throughout history

[indutrial]

You ability to spew tiresome horses**t is somewhat of an atrocity.

[illuminist]

what exactly does "tiresome horses" mean exactly lol :

LET ME STATE THIS AS A CLEAR FACT FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT HISTORICAL ACCURACY EXACTLY IS,
THE BRITISH EMPIRE'S CONQUESTS TO ESTABLISH COLONIAL POWER was essentially the same as the Nazi's being a project on a grand scale, involving military conquest and dictatorship, extermination and genocide, martial law and "special courts", slavery and forced labour, and, of course, concentration camps and the transoceanic migration of peoples. (wow what a *** eye - opener, who would of thought the British empire showed the Nazi's how to utilise "CONCENTRATION CAMPS"), the only possible argument to result from this fact is "uhhhhh uhh but.... the British empire utilized the concentration camps through "positive means" - seriously what a f***king joke, politically correct bullshit

a fact is a fact, for what insults one can be subjected to, it doesn't negate the fact majority of the human race sees the greatest atrocities in the ideals propagated by the National Socialists with good reason to which i certainly don't deny(let me state i am not a nazi sympathizer because if i was i would have blood banner's swastikas etc.... of you're typical stero-typical neo-nazi nut head)when it is fact as i have stated over and over again
with perfect factual evidence that in this particular case the extermination of an entire race has been committed throughout history over and over again, it is not my fault for the limited intelligence of a few politically correct assholes of which such a topic of conversation offends.

seriously, some of you would make brilliant nazi's with such naive speculation
and blind fanaticism to a single point of view "Sieg Heil" lololol

[alexis_]

I don't see the point of this thread. Of course other civilisations and empires done the same kind of act in the past, so what ? That doesn't tone down theirs acts just because some people before also did it.
We take them always as an example because it's the nearest one in our history (occidental world), and also because we won against them I guess...

[illuminist]

No sh*t sherlock.

the point is to illustrate what you have just proclaimed(apart from being pointless)

because the fact will always remain that the crimes against humanity that the national socialists committed are equal in comparison to nearly every empire/civilization.

second of all, the reason it is remembered so much in the occidental world is so we don't forget
hence the saying "lest we forget", which in some cases is a load of garbage considering no one can recognize the atrocities throughout history of previous civilizations, that is the point.

no kidding - it doesn't tone down there act to justify such a prejudice because it has been committed time and time again throughout history, - but if we are to learn from humanities mistakes we cannot blindly point a finger to "hitler" and say that is where it began, that is what is pure evil, that is what is wrong with the world.(just to say it one more time for those who think i am a nazi sympathizer, i do not share any belief in nazi ideology, politics etc....)

[Petter]

but if we are to learn from humanities mistakes we cannot blindly point a finger to "hitler" and say that is where is began, that is what is pure evil, that is what is wrong with the world.

No one able to put 1+1 togheter has ever claimed that. What's your point?

[illuminist]

Back back on topic, I can't for the life of me see any possible justification for the statement that the Nazis were _victims_ of racial prejudice. I really hope that's a mistake.
[/quote]


oh, by the way this is where the topic left of

[illuminist]

the point is what do you think is the lesser of two evils lol - the nazis or the british empire, or Joseph stalin, hell why not Alexander the great, Napoleon Bonaparte, or Ghengis Khan, Atilla the Hun, etc.......(i suppose they are a bit off the time scale for historical value) lol

personally i think atrocity is something you have to accept, or try to change, i prefer the former in all cynicism, either hitler and the British monarchy are as evil as each other, or both wanted to achieve an ideal motivated by altruistic ideals, the facts are the facts of which what was being instigated by the Bristish monarchy was a project on a grand scale, involving military conquest and dictatorship, extermination and genocide, martial law and "special courts", slavery and forced labour, and, of course, concentration camps and the transoceanic migration of peoples

[michel dvorsky]

personally i think atrocity is something you have e to accept, or try to change, i prefer the former in all cynicism, either hitler and the British monarchy are as evil as each other, or both wanted to achieve an ideal motivated by altruistic ideals, the facts are the facts of which what was being instigated by the Bristish monarchy was a project on a grand scale, involving military conquest and dictatorship, extermination and genocide, martial law and "special courts", slavery and forced labour, and, of course, concentration camps and the transoceanic migration of peoples

You are either ignorant or sick.

The values of the British Empire were primarily those of the Enlightenment - Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries was fueled by the intellectual and moral influence of men like Hume, Locke,  Acton, Gladstone, and Smith.  The British Empire was imperialist, sure, and inflicted a deal of suffering... (Amritsar, South Africa etc.) but the effect and influence of British institutions in all parts of the world was far more positive than negative.   (Ironically, India fared better in the period preceding independence than the period directly following it).   

It is disgusting and appalling to suggest a moral equivalence between the occasional shameful but relatively minor acts of cruelty inflicted by the British and the wholesale, intentional, systematic destruction of countless MILLIONS of lives at the hands of the totalitarians fascists and communists during the 20th century.

[illuminist]

WOW, brilliant job you quoted historical fact of which cannot be negated as it's the truth of the situation you cannot seem to face, seriously are you f*****king stupid with which you cannot accept a fact with the only reprimand you can proclaim is oh you're a nazi sympathizer, you must be an idiot

Seriously michel, you and you're partially founded views on historical fact is nothing more than an attempt to stand politically correct, the "British Empire" invented the concentration camps for the subjugation of what is naively termed an inferior race for F***cks sake, what don't you understand about that, seriously you would make a brilliant Nazi with such speculation and willingness to call another ignorant due to unfounded belief.

i suggest you read an open minded scholarly study into the British empire by "David Cannadine"(that is if you're capable of reading a book), well known historian, the information is nothing pseudo-historical or completely unfounded without a prior knowledge to the subject matter at hand unlike the f***cking bullshit you are presenting.
oh and the book is called Ornamentalism, did you get that or are you still convinced of you're politically correct bullshit, seriously..........................

once you have read this historians studies(don't forget other studies by different historians if you wish to be open-minded lol), i will then take you're statements with some seriousness and accuracy, until then please do everyone a favor and drop the facade of what's the ideal political model or form of governance during these periods of history.


P.S - WHAT IS THE SOURCES OF YOU'RE INFORMATION FOR THE ARGUMENT YOU JUST PRESENTED TO ME!!! - BY THE LOOKS OF IT YOU HAVE EITHER BEEN WATCHING THE NEWS, THE HISTORY CHANNEL, OR READING MAGAZINE ARTICLES OR A COMBINATION OF ALL THREE.......(may i inquire as to whether you are on any medication or mentally deficient) lol

[minor9th]

Claudio Arrau playing Liszt's Mephisto Waltz! 

[go12_3]

Right now I think *atrocity* is the lack of communication between people in general and between individuals in their interpersonal relationships.  Apathy can lead to uncaring and unkindness towards one another.  That's when the heart of the problems begin in humankind and as individuals.  There is not much connection between people unless we make that effort to reach out and make a difference in lives that are less fortunate than ours.  We all hack away into our world of the Internet and even there I find it difficult to *connect* with anyone, and sometimes in real life.   

What drives people away from one another is the lack of interest and care, whether in real life or in the Internet.  When there is no commonground, there is no thread to tie us together as a people and individuals.  Empathy is needed in this world, which I find there isn't much of anyway.  Therefore , depression and loneliness is the major cause of mental and physcial breakdown of most populated areas  in the world, especially in the United States.  There is pressure added to become better in what we do and become, so there is no time to relax and enjoy the company of a friend and family.  There is more noise and commotion in which we have to deal with in our daily lives, which makes it difficult for us to escape from unless you sit in a remote area in the world. 

I find another atroctiy, is how people treat one another with no regard to the human feelings of the heart.  Such expressions of "I like you", or "I love you"  apparently isn't being said or heard enough.  Or we are afraid to express those inner feelings for fear of rejection. And then sensitivity becomes more diminished as confusion, lack of understanding  and distrust becomes apparent in the ideology of relationships.  Then there is no value in who and what we are as people in general, which can tear apart an individual's self worth and esteem.  Time keeps moving on as hearts become more harden when there is no room for forgiveness and not holding grudges.  There would be no room to open up to speak to someone freely of the feelings from within.  The misunderstandings becomes apparent due to diverse backgrounds because of the language barrier and expressions which are different in cultures  from all over the world.  Of course, the unity of mankind depends upon these factors of love, kindness and caring for one another.   But keep in mind, a gentle heart is indeed a very rare gem to find and which is needful in a successful interpersonal relationship, no matter what circumstances we find ourselves in.   

best wishes, 

go12_3

[Petter]

Well said Go, I like you 

[go12_3]

Well said Go, I like you 

How nice, petter! I like you too,   

[illuminist]

what you illustrated go is a nice vision to say the least, but with all due respect it's nothing more than a false image of "utopia" devoid of any realism, the closest thing that can result from such an ideal you proclaimed is democracy, may not be perfect, but it's far more enlightened than a Monarchy or Imperialism.

the subject matter at hand is the difference between the Nazi's and the British empires political model

i still stand by my point regardless, the British Empire instigated the exact same war crimes against humanity as the National Socialists, the most open-minded study on this fact is by the historian David Cannadine - Ornamentalism which illustrates my claim beyond a doubt, it's not speculation or fact without reason, it's accepted truth.

[go12_3]

what you illustrated go is a nice vision to say the least, but with all due respect it's nothing more than a false image of "utopia" devoid of any realism, the closest thing that can result from such an ideal you proclaimed is democracy, may not be perfect, but it's far more enlightened than a Monarchy or Imperialism.

the subject matter at hand is the difference between the Nazi's and the British empires political model

i still stand by my point regardless, the British Empire instigated the exact same war crimes against humanity as the National Socialists, the most open-minded study on this fact is by the historian David Cannadine - Ornamentalism which illustrates my claim beyond a doubt, it's not speculation or fact without reason, it's accepted truth.

I didn't mean to change the subject at hand, because what I was merely illustrating is what is happening in this world between people at present, although it has nothing to do with the British Empire against the humanity as the National Socialists.....perhaps with such atrocity, wars begin as human life was disregarded as naught and freedom and democracy is the means of being able to express ourselves and be rid of the control of people's way of life.    

[illuminist]

well i couldn't agree more, and as a democracy we should be open-minded enough
to see that the atrocities committed in name of the British empire are equal to that
of the National Socialists as it's historical fact that shouldn't be overlooked in order to make reality a system based upon "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity"

this is the point i am trying to illustrate here

[michel dvorsky]

well i couldn't agree more, and as a democracy we should be open-minded enough
to see that the atrocities committed in name of the British empire are equal to that
of the National Socialists as it's historical fact that shouldn't be overlooked in order to make reality a system based upon "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity"

this is the point i am trying to illustrate here

As a "democracy" we should be academically disingenuous revisionists and moral relativists?  Whatever you say, champ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#1915_to_1950

British "Atrocity":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_massacre

Nazi Atrocity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar
"as part of a program of deliberate and systematic state-sponsored extermination planned and executed by Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler." (wiki: Holocaust)

You're either an ignorant moral relativist a shameless Nazi sympathizer / apologist

If it's the former, you can be educated.  If it's the latter, crawl back under the rock you came from.