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Topic: How far do you think it will go in Iran?  (Read 2621 times)

Offline Bob

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How far do you think it will go in Iran?
on: June 21, 2009, 01:07:11 AM
(and based on what?)

Will it be put down?  Are they... revolting?  Revolution?
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 10:59:14 AM
1. I don't care.
2. The more they kill each other will simply leave less people for the Americans to kill

Thal
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Offline alessandro

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 11:25:58 AM
1. I don't care.


Thal

Yeah why not.  But I'm slightly interested (in everything, I presume).
Iranian leadership is stupid, Ayatollah's behaving like Gods, stupid spokesman such as Ahmadinejad who stated for example whilst being major of Teheran that elevators shouldn't be used by man and women together, stated also not more than a year ago that homosexuality did not exist in Teheran, no really, their leaders are such a drama over there.

To make a small sidestep to music, I'm actually reading a book "Romanticism" by Rüdiger Safranski, which states that romanticism is inconceivable without the idea of revolution.   The whole world was looking at France in 1789, and the "idea" of revolution did make (not always a great) impression on philosophers, writers, artists.  Both, revolution and romanticism aim at an ideal, an 'other' world, a world in which the individual has its value.

There is such a long way to go in Iran.  But I'm certain that it is very beautiful country, with beautiful people, and I sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that they get the leaders they really want, that there are more 'human' rights there, less harsh- and angriness and more feminity.  

Kindly.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 12:08:22 PM

There is such a long way to go in Iran.  

Until what??

Until we have imposed upon them our Western Ideals?

Which governments do not have people behaving like Gods and stupid spokesman?. Power corrupts no matter who is in charge.

I do not care what the Iran people do, as long as they do not come to England.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 01:28:57 PM
Who said: "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Any country or community that is run by people who (claim to) have a direct line with the divine is by defenition corrupted. Also any country or community that is run by a principle that is not open to question or critique.
Can anyone explain to my why our PM (a Christen Democrat) says the invasion on Iraq was a good thing because of the oppressive government while at the same time being big pals with the Saudi government? (Surely this is not about oil, or the desire to be USA's lapdog!?). Or why he doesn't want to receive the Dalai Lama "in order not the harm the critical dialogue with China about human rights"? Yea, China mighty afraid of Big Brother Netherlands!

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I do not care what the Iran people do, as long as they do not come to England.
Hmm, a bit strict, no? That said, I would like my country to be open to those who flee oppression because of their own free mind, and who can and wish to contribute to this land. Saying "I was beaten" doesn't count when you beat your wife because that's your culture, though! And parasites and criminals we've got more then enough of ourselves, thank you very much!
I try to be no racist (but am a culturist, in the sense that I believe some cultures to be inferior to others. So far I  haven't seen superior ones, though...), but would not want to live in a country of which the PM is Brown....

What will happen in Iran? Let me guess: there is a partial recount after which it is proven that Ahmedinedjad had even more votes. Subsequently a link between his opponent and Israel and Washington will be uncovered, he will then be tried and shot and his followers will be squashed.
Lets see how premonitious I'll be! :P
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline alessandro

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 01:55:50 PM

Until we have imposed upon them our Western Ideals?

Thal

I don't want to impose anything, on nobody.   I just think 'human rights' are a very nice concept.  I also think that separation of "church" and state is necessary too.  And I absolutely get terrified by the idea that you can get hung (only the idea of being hung or stoned alone terrifies me) for your sexual orientation.  Whomever that wants to live his life praying and obeing to whatever God, I think it is pity, but I don't want to make a war over it.

Your answer reminds me of two things,  in the zone of 'freedom of speech'.   I once helped kids doing there homework after school.  I always carried with me a little book in which I took notes for myself (ideas, sketches of letters etcetera...).  A kid laid hand on that book, for a reason that is not clear to me (my distraction ? did the kid steal it ?)   The kid showed the book to his dad, the dad got back to the school, the principal went to the major, it was in a few days almost something of national public concern.  A right hand to the major invited me in his office, showed me a chair and said severely while pointing a finger at my book "What is this ?" he said.   I was very surprised, I was missing my book and here it reappeared.   To make the history short; the language i wrote in my "by the way" private book was "obscene", he said.   I presume he was talking about the word 'f*ck' that was once or twice used in my notes, but nothing obscene as far as I know.   Now, I got fired for that.

Second similar.  Not more than 50 years ago a Dutch novellist "Gerard Reve" was sued to court for his writing in which he claimed that God appeared to him in the form of a donkey and that he f*cked him in the *rse.

Do you think it is normal that you have to hide and fear for your life after making a cartoon in which you portray Mohammed ?

Is it modern to rip out the heart of young women with a sword if they not behave as their husbands wish them to behave ?

Is it normal to stone people ?
Is it normal that there is famine also in Iran, let stand the world ?





Which governments do not have people behaving like Gods and stupid spokesman?. Power corrupts no matter who is in charge.

Thal

I don't feel governed by megalomaniacs.  Not here.  We had also some affairs with corruption with tax payers money, and of course the gap between rich and poor is too big, also here in Belgium.  But I do not think that power necessarily corrupts, no, I speak for myself, I have some power, over the kids I live with, but I don't think I abuse that power.
No frankly, Thal, it is a rather cool life here in Belgium, definitely if I compare it with life in Iran.




Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 03:50:51 PM
No frankly, Thal, it is a rather cool life here in Belgium, definitely if I compare it with life in Iran.

You make valid points, but i cannot help but feel that the West must not interfere with what is happening in Iran and they should be left to sort their own problems.

A lot of their actions might seem atrocious to us, but I am sure the average Iranian would be appalled if he/she went for a night out in London and saw half naked girls wandering around, pissed out of their heads and having sex in the street.

They would be sickened by the amount of pregnant schoolgirls, un married mothers and fatherless feral children. They could not cope with gay vicars and murderers that are let out of prison after serving pathetically small sentences.

Human rights are a nice concept, but they cannot be evenly applied to all cultures.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline oxy60

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 07:49:05 PM
If you take a moment and study how revolutions (worldwide) progressed you can predict how this one will go. Pay special attention to pivotal events that changed the balance of power, not only militarily but financially. At this point I'm looking at where the opposition can get power from inside Iran. If they can get part of the army on thier side..

You fill in the rest.
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."  John Muir  (We all need to get out more.)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 08:30:45 PM
Hmm, a bit strict, no? That said, I would like my country to be open to those who flee oppression because of their own free mind, and who can and wish to contribute to this land.

I have more tolerance towards those who wish to contribute, but the amount of immigrants a Country can take must have a limit, since resources have limits.

As a Country, England has taken in the crap of Europe and Asia without even the slightest thought as to how this might affect the existing population. MP's, politically correct do gooders and out of touch Church leaders seem to be happy to let in all and sundry, but it is not them who suffers from the negative effects of large scale immigration.

Again, i say that i don't give a sh*t what the Iranians do to each other in their own Country, as long as they do not come here and do it.

Thal

Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline minor9th

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 01:39:17 AM
As long as it's a theocracy, I doubt there will ever be much fundamental change.

Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 01:16:25 PM
Quote
Your answer reminds me of two things,  in the zone of 'freedom of speech'.   I once helped kids doing there homework after school.  I always carried with me a little book in which I took notes for myself (ideas, sketches of letters etcetera...).  A kid laid hand on that book, for a reason that is not clear to me (my distraction ? did the kid steal it ?)   The kid showed the book to his dad, the dad got back to the school, the principal went to the major, it was in a few days almost something of national public concern.  A right hand to the major invited me in his office, showed me a chair and said severely while pointing a finger at my book "What is this ?" he said.   I was very surprised, I was missing my book and here it reappeared.   To make the history short; the language i wrote in my "by the way" private book was "obscene", he said.   I presume he was talking about the word 'f*ck' that was once or twice used in my notes, but nothing obscene as far as I know.   Now, I got fired for that.
If I understand you correctly, this happened in Belgium. Which surprises me, since I've always thought Belgium was a rather free country. THIS sounds more what you would expect from the more rural backcountry in the US (based on what we hear and see from that, that is!). So stealing someone's private property isn't a problem, giving it to read to anyone whomever isn't a point, but having your own free thoughts is. How hypocrite! Sorry to hear you've lost that job, but even more sorry that such people can run such schools!

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A lot of their actions might seem atrocious to us, but I am sure the average Iranian would be appalled if he/she went for a night out in London and saw half naked girls wandering around, pissed out of their heads and having sex in the street.

They would be sickened by the amount of pregnant schoolgirls, un married mothers and fatherless feral children.
Yes, I'm sure the Iranian people keep all those things behind doors. That there may be fewer pregnant schoolgirls in Iran may be due to the fact that the maritable age for girls there is 13 (and hes been raised to that recently; it used to be 9). So they may be pregnant alright, but they're no longer schoolgirls, but the wives of faitfull men by that age...

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They could not cope with gay vicars and murderers that are let out of prison after serving pathetically small sentences.
I find it a bit (more than a bit!) disturbing that you name those two in one sentence. Surely you would not equate gay vicars with murderers? Besides, I think that in Iran a man that kills his "unfaithful" wive doesn't get any sentence whatsoever. And do you really think there are no gays in Iran? (Well, they have a tradition of having young boys "entertain" older men, but that's no homosexuality, since these boys are still beardless; homosexuality is sex among men, these boys aren't men so raping them isn't homosexuality)

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Human rights are a nice concept, but they cannot be evenly applied to all cultures.
Yes they can, and they should be. There are fundamental rights any human being should have. Any culture that makes differences between various groups for reasons that don't make sense (skin colour, gender, age, place of birth, social level, income, religion, you name it) is by definition no civilisation worthy of the name. If it's OK to judge other people based on such things, you could be judged on the same principle. Surely you would wish to have all other people to have the same basic rights you demand for yourself?
\As said, there are basic rights, and any and every culture should apply them. Why should it be not OK to judge people based on gender in the UK, but OK in Saudi Arabia?

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At this point I'm looking at where the opposition can get power from inside Iran. If they can get part of the army on thier side..
...they would probably become the next oppressive force in the country, I fear. Most countries in that region are run on barbaric principle, which is the right of the strongest. I fear that will not change any time soon...

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Do you think it is normal that you have to hide and fear for your life after making a cartoon in which you portray Mohammed ?

Is it modern to rip out the heart of young women with a sword if they not behave as their husbands wish them to behave ?

Is it normal to stone people ?
The crazy thing is: as long as you claim it is because of religion you'll probably be OK. Overhere in The Netherlands a politician who openly says he thinks Islam is a bad thing is prosecuted, and a Muslim that preaches all gays should be thrown head-first from the highest tower has freedom of religion and cannot be touched. When someone wanted to ride a bus with the text "GOD PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST" could freely do so (and rightly so), but the organising people did not wish to ride another bus with the text "ALLAH PROBABLY DOESN'T EXIST", because they thought that would be a security problem. WHY that should be a problem, and how to eliminate that problem, they chose not to discuss. Because we're a civilised country, I guess.

All best,
Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 04:32:42 PM
I find it a bit (more than a bit!) disturbing that you name those two in one sentence. Surely you would not equate gay vicars with murderers?

Of course not. Those were just the first two examples that came to mind.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 04:37:29 PM
I think that in Iran a man that kills his "unfaithful" wive doesn't get any sentence whatsoever.

And do you really think there are no gays in Iran?

1. What is wrong with that.

2. Looking at their women, probably a lot.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline zheer

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 04:39:36 PM
1. What is wrong with that.

2. Looking at their women, probably a lot.

Thal

  Women from Iran are actually very nice. The thing about gay men in Iran, I've heard there are a lot of gayz in the mid-east in, it doesn't suprise me really.

  As far as politics go, nothing will change, Ahmad Djeni- whatever aint moving an inch.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #14 on: June 24, 2009, 04:45:55 PM

Women from Iran are actually very nice.

I was not being serious, just trying to irritate our resident Dutchman.

I think it would be fair to let the pretty Iranian girls wear a lot less, with the mingaz having to keep covered.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline zheer

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #15 on: June 24, 2009, 04:56:38 PM
I was not being serious, just trying to irritate our resident Dutchman.

I think it would be fair to let the pretty Iranian girls wear a lot less, with the mingaz having to keep covered.

Thal

  Agreed.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #16 on: June 24, 2009, 06:31:51 PM
Should also be applied to English girls.

I know a few that should be forced to wear a burka.

Thal
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Concerto Preservation Society

Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 05:49:59 AM
I was not being serious, just trying to irritate our resident Dutchman.

I think it would be fair to let the pretty Iranian girls wear a lot less, with the mingaz having to keep covered.

Thal
Assuming you're referring to me as "resident Dutchman" (I know there are more Dutchies here), you have failed, for I did not believe you were being serious!
I would agree that if men are troubled by women going out in such a garb that you can actually see that it are women, those men should cover their eyes! Perhaps it would be a good idea to force such men as that want thei (or all) women to cover themselves to wear a burka for a month. In July preferably.

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Should also be applied to English girls.

I know a few that should be forced to wear a burka.

Thal
*thinking of the spectacle of these overweight women aged 50-60 who want to look like skinny 16-s by way of eye-searing hairdo, 20 pounds of makeup and garishly coloured clothes that make them look like colour-noisy saussages*
Agreed, but not just in the UK I fear. Some of those peno-paused males should be kept on a leash too. You know the type (think of all those tiny Berlusconi's!).

Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline birba

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 06:35:59 AM
We've sort of wandered from the original thread (What have you got against Berlusconi? ::)) but after last night I feel this revolting is going to get bigger.  I read that the son of Khameni is eyeing the office of president and this is one reason the government is not backing down.  At any rate, it's becoming a very tragic situation.

Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 09:01:20 AM
We've sort of wandered from the original thread (What have you got against Berlusconi? ::)) but after last night I feel this revolting is going to get bigger.  I read that the son of Khameni is eyeing the office of president and this is one reason the government is not backing down.  At any rate, it's becoming a very tragic situation.
It is...
Sadly, history teaches us (for those who want to be teached) that revolutions have rarely (if at all) brought better lives to the people. Many people in poor and/or oppressing countries have had a dream that 'when the revolution comes we will be free and have a better life'. Sadly it turns out that in almost all cases after whatever revolution there has come, freedom and a better life do not follow, rather the opposite. "Revolutions devour their own children", as they say. I have little doubt that should there be an exchange in power in Iran it will be no more than that: a new man in charge.
Lots of people who want "more freedom" find it hard or impossible to swallow that more freedom to you means also more freedom to everybody else. You may want the right to say what you want, but no way that right extends to your neighbour, or your wife, or your children! And you never get rich overnight. Look at the Balkan lands after the revolution of the 1990, or South-Africa, or Russia, or the Middle East.
It is hard to change people, and even more hard to change communities, let alone countries or cultures. We've taken 1,000 years to come from the dark Middle Ages to where we are now, and the layer of acquired civilisation is very thin. Ten million years ago we were monkeys trying to keep the other monkeys out of our tree by way of making a racket and throwing things. Much has changed since....
The human brain is the most complex organic thing that has evolved on this planet. Looking at the use most people put it, one must assume that the reason it got so large and complex are similar to the reason behind the peacock's tail and the antlers of dear: impressing the opposing side but useless for everything else.

In short, yes the situation in Iran is very tragic indeed. But I do not think we will see a free and open country there is our lifetime.

Don Silvio? I think a country usually gets as a leader is an enlarged version of the general vices typical for that country. The Dutch have been characterised as "The vicar and the salesman", already in the 17th century (i.e. preach high and severe, but do not let it in any way stand in the way of commerce). Boy, do we have examples thereof running the shop now!

All best,
Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 12:41:13 PM
Whilst it would be difficult not to concur with Thal's statement that the West should be very careful about interfering in the ways of nations outwith itself, his implication that all immigrants into England (I suppose those entering Scotland, Wales, etc. don't count in the same way, whatever way that may be) are spongers, scroungers and advantage-takers simply admits of no credibility whatsoever; it also takes no account of the reasons why the not insubstantial numbers of people who leave England each year do so. I'm not sure how seriously he expects his remarks on this to be taken, but if, as he states, he doesn't care what Iranians do as long as they don't come to England and do it, why does he not likewise consider the possibility that what some English people do in England is such that their deportation might be to his liking? Mightn't he prefer civilised Iranians as near neighbours than uncivilised English ones? In any case, if the West should not interfere in what Iranians do, why in principle should it seek to interfere with the wishes of some of them to come to England and make valuable contributions to English society? Of course each country has only room and economic power to sustain a certain number of people of any nationality (and the fact that England is merely a part of a small island makes this a particular case in point), but Thal's frequently self-proclaimed racist attitudes to the extent that they appear to advocate keeping England "English" and Iran "Iranian", etc. make neither practical nor human sense, nor do they sit comfortably with the obsessive colonisation of other nations in which the English indulged widely in the past. Would Thal advocate, for example, that Iran refuse permission for any of its citizens to leave their country?

Best,

Alistair
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Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 01:53:32 PM
If I understand you correctly, Thal, you would want to (almost) completely close the UK bordes for foreigners because according to you (a large?) part of the people wanting to come in are of criminal or at least parasitical intend. May I remind you of the fact that all other countries might do the same. I recall you writing about a visit to Amsterdam you made recently. That means you came to my country. How would you have liked it if the border was closed to UK people in order to keep those out that are criminal? (Please do not try to tell me there would be no people coming from the UK with crinimal intend).
That said, what we also do not need with respect to foreigners coming in is the kind of "political correct" looking away. For instance, we've got an increasing influx of Polish people here. Most come here to work, and will work hard for way too little money (a fact not unnoticed among Dutch employers!). However, among those coming are such as to want to earn their money a little easier. An estimated €800,000,000 worth of stolen money and property is transported to Poland each year. A fact our politicians choose to ignore, since we've got open borders and Poland is in the EU. What this leads to is that ALL polish people are looked upon with suspicion. Much better then would it be to indeed do some checks on the borders, in order to keep out the known criminals, at least next time they try to come in.
But to say that your country has taken in "the" crap from Europe and Asia is rather nonsense. What is "the" crap from Europe and Asia? Anyone born there? Are you sure the rest of the world hasn't, now or in the past, taken in "the" crap from the UK? (You might want to study the history of Australia, for instance...). Surely there are those who come to the UK with criminal or parasitical intend, as much as such people come to any country. That those are screened out is something I would support, we've got enough muck of ourselves, no need to import it. But to shoehorn pretty much anything that is from outside the UK into the wastebin is rather, what's the word, fascistic. Perhaps we overhere should screen those types out when they want to visit my country?
I'd like to think my country being open to those who wish to contribute to it, and to be closed to those who merely want to profit the easy way without wanting to give anything in return. Likewise I would like all natives here to want to contribute to the country, and put a stop to those who merely want to profit from it the easy way.

All best,
Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline communist

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 02:03:15 PM
If I understand you correctly, Thal, you would want to (almost) completely close the UK bordes for foreigners because according to you (a large?) part of the people wanting to come in are of criminal or at least parasitical intend. May I remind you of the fact that all other countries might do the same. I recall you writing about a visit to Amsterdam you made recently. That means you came to my country. How would you have liked it if the border was closed to UK people in order to keep those out that are criminal? (Please do not try to tell me there would be no people coming from the UK with crinimal intend).
That said, what we also do not need with respect to foreigners coming in is the kind of "political correct" looking away. For instance, we've got an increasing influx of Polish people here. Most come here to work, and will work hard for way too little money (a fact not unnoticed among Dutch employers!). However, among those coming are such as to want to earn their money a little easier. An estimated €800,000,000 worth of stolen money and property is transported to Poland each year. A fact our politicians choose to ignore, since we've got open borders and Poland is in the EU. What this leads to is that ALL polish people are looked upon with suspicion. Much better then would it be to indeed do some checks on the borders, in order to keep out the known criminals, at least next time they try to come in.
But to say that your country has taken in "the" crap from Europe and Asia is rather nonsense. What is "the" crap from Europe and Asia? Anyone born there? Are you sure the rest of the world hasn't, now or in the past, taken in "the" crap from the UK? (You might want to study the history of Australia, for instance...). Surely there are those who come to the UK with criminal or parasitical intend, as much as such people come to any country. That those are screened out is something I would support, we've got enough muck of ourselves, no need to import it. But to shoehorn pretty much anything that is from outside the UK into the wastebin is rather, what's the word, fascistic. Perhaps we overhere should screen those types out when they want to visit my country?
I'd like to think my country being open to those who wish to contribute to it, and to be closed to those who merely want to profit the easy way without wanting to give anything in return. Likewise I would like all natives here to want to contribute to the country, and put a stop to those who merely want to profit from it the easy way.

All best,
Gep

Doris, your talking like all Polish people are bad. If you do that again I am going to have to give you a time out.
"The stock markets go up and down, Bach only goes up"

-Vladimir Feltsman

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #23 on: June 25, 2009, 02:38:22 PM
I recall you writing about a visit to Amsterdam you made recently. That means you came to my country.

Indeed, but i came legally. I had a passport and arrived on the Train.

I spent a lot of money (mainly on prostitutes) that contributed to your economy.

Thal
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #24 on: June 25, 2009, 02:46:38 PM
Whilst it would be difficult not to concur with Thal's statement that the West should be very careful about interfering in the ways of nations outwith itself, his implication that all immigrants into England (I suppose those entering Scotland, Wales, etc. don't count in the same way, whatever way that may be) are spongers, scroungers and advantage-takers simply admits of no credibility whatsoever; it also takes no account of the reasons why the not insubstantial numbers of people who leave England each year do so. I'm not sure how seriously he expects his remarks on this to be taken, but if, as he states, he doesn't care what Iranians do as long as they don't come to England and do it, why does he not likewise consider the possibility that what some English people do in England is such that their deportation might be to his liking? Mightn't he prefer civilised Iranians as near neighbours than uncivilised English ones? In any case, if the West should not interfere in what Iranians do, why in principle should it seek to interfere with the wishes of some of them to come to England and make valuable contributions to English society? Of course each country has only room and economic power to sustain a certain number of people of any nationality (and the fact that England is merely a part of a small island makes this a particular case in point), but Thal's frequently self-proclaimed racist attitudes to the extent that they appear to advocate keeping England "English" and Iran "Iranian", etc. make neither practical nor human sense, nor do they sit comfortably with the obsessive colonisation of other nations in which the English indulged widely in the past. Would Thal advocate, for example, that Iran refuse permission for any of its citizens to leave their country?

Best,

Alistair

We have enough indigenous scum without importing any more. Undoubtedly there are many English that do not deserve to live in this Country, but we cannot deport them.

As a Country that is already overcrowded, it is utter madness to have the open door policy that we already have. We simply do not have the infastructure to cope.

The pro immigration lobby, often consist of people who's existance is in no way affected by large scale immigration. People who live on farms out in the Country for instance.

Thal

I am not against all
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Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #25 on: June 25, 2009, 04:35:12 PM
Doris, your talking like all Polish people are bad. If you do that again I am going to have to give you a time out.
"Gep" is not Doris and when he writes
we've got an increasing influx of Polish people here. Most come here to work, and will work hard
he is hardly talking as you suggest. I would give yourself some time out if I were you if you conclude as you have from what "gep" wrote there...

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Alistair
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Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #26 on: June 25, 2009, 04:39:02 PM
Indeed, but i came legally. I had a passport and arrived on the Train.
I daresay that you did, but then most Polish people who come to the Netherlands, UK or other EU countries also do as you did, so I don't see how that makes you any different.

I spent a lot of money (mainly on prostitutes) that contributed to your economy.
Were any of them Polish? The extent to which your expenditure benefitted the Dutch economy would presumably depend upon the amounts of tax and social charges subsequently paid to the Dutch authorities by those on whom you spent that "lot of money" as well as the extent to which the recipients of your moeny spent in in the Netherlands rather than sending it back to Poland or somewhere in any case...

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 04:46:50 PM
I daresay that you did, but then most Polish people who come to the Netherlands, UK or other EU countries also do as you did, so I don't see how that makes you any different.

I went home after 4 days.

Is that different enough for you.

Thal
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Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 04:49:06 PM
We have enough indigenous scum without importing any more. Undoubtedly there are many English that do not deserve to live in this Country, but we cannot deport them.
Someone in an unassailable position of authority and with the requisite intelligence to make due judgements would have to be charged with deciding which inhabitants are "scum", based upon appropriate judgemental parameters; sadly, not everyone would ever agree on all cases.

As a Country that is already overcrowded, it is utter madness to have the open door policy that we already have. We simply do not have the infastructure to cope.
Whilst that is not untrue in itself, I think you will find that it would be illegal for UK to refuse entry to all those who wish to come to it and who have a right to do so, be that right based upon citizenship of other EU countries or on that of other nations outside EU which had in the past been colonised by Britain; the colonising countries (including Spain, Portugal, France and the Netherlands as well as UK) should perhaps have given thought to that possible future consequence before meddling in the affairs of other nations to the extent that they once did.

The pro immigration lobby, often consist of people who's existance is in no way affected by large scale immigration. People who live on farms out in the Country for instance.
And should one conclude from this that you believe that the UK anti-immigration lobby consists only or mainly of British people who live in urban communities in which the majority population is immigrant? And what of all those emigrants from Britain who absence makes more room for immigrants? In addition, do bear in mind that if all British people living outside UK decided to return to UK at the same time, the resulting over-population would be considerably more serious and unmanageable than it would be under what you call the current "open door" policy towards foreign immigrants.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #29 on: June 25, 2009, 04:50:14 PM

Were any of them Polish? The extent to which your expenditure benefitted the Dutch economy would presumably depend upon the amounts of tax and social charges subsequently paid to the Dutch authorities by those on whom you spent that "lot of money" as well as the extent to which the recipients of your moeny spent in in the Netherlands rather than sending it back to Poland or somewhere in any case...

No, both of them were from Hungary.

I understand from my Amsterdam Guide Book that a lot of prostitutes in Holland do fill in tax returns.

Thal
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Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #30 on: June 25, 2009, 04:53:10 PM
Doris, your talking like all Polish people are bad. If you do that again I am going to have to give you a time out.
Please do read more carefully what I wrote. Using the people coming from Poland as an example, I stated that ignoring those with criminal intend among groups of people coming into the country leads to a bad name for the whole group, i.e. including the goodwilling people (who are usually in the majority, I'd add). But if you still feel troubles from misreading my message, feel free to substitute Dutch tourists in Spain, of whom a number each year seem to go to Spain to boose and fornicate (I'll keep it nice...) as much as they possibly can, thereby giving all Dutch tourists a bad name in some areas.
I doubt you're in a position to do anything to or about me, actually. And copying Thal isn't very original, or funny, or mature. But then communists have never been of sound mind.....

Quote
Quote
Quote from: thalbergmad on Today at 02:38:22 PM
I spent a lot of money (mainly on prostitutes) that contributed to your economy.
Were any of them Polish?
I could add here that that might have been the case, and then perhaps sadly so, for we have a problem with illegal prostitution in which women are lured here (either by Dutch people, or fellow country people) with prospect of decent work with a good pay, and upon coming here are forced into prostitution. One reason for legalising prostitution was doing so might help suppress such atrocities, since all legal sex workers are knwon, hence unknown might be illegal/forced workers.
Did you check if the lady/ladies were legal Thal, or were you in such a hurry there was no time?

Quote
I went home after 4 days.

Is that different enough for you.

Thal
Spending UK money outside of the UK. Is that legal?
By the way, I heard on the news a while ago Dutch sex workers saw a decline in bussiness. That explains then, I guess...

Quote
I understand from my Amsterdam Guide Book that a lot of prostitutes in Holland do fill in tax returns.
And you will fill in the receipts you got in your tax return as expences? Or aren't you high enough in the goverment?

Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #31 on: June 25, 2009, 04:53:40 PM
I went home after 4 days.

Is that different enough for you.
Yes, of course, but it is so different from the circumstances that you describe that it undermines the very point of your own original reference to having gone to the Netherlands by train carrying a valid EU passport. Should we presume that after those four days you had run out of money and had no more to spend as you say you'd spent it? If so, you'd presumably by that time used up your entire credit limit on that £6M credit card of which you wrote in another thread. You must have encountered some pretty expensive - er - service providers, then...

Best,

Alistair
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 04:54:04 PM
the colonising countries (including Spain, Portugal, France and the Netherlands as well as UK) should perhaps have given thought to that possible future consequence before meddling in the affairs of other nations to the extent that they once did.

If only they did, but they did not.
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Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 04:55:02 PM
I understand from my Amsterdam Guide Book that a lot of prostitutes in Holland do fill in tax returns.
Not while providing service to you, one hopes...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 04:56:31 PM
Did you check if the lady/ladies were legal Thal

Well, the services were advertised in the hotel brochure, so i assume they had been "checked out".

Thal
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Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 04:57:10 PM
Not while providing service to you, one hopes...

Best,

Alistair
Out of pure boredom, perhaps?
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #36 on: June 25, 2009, 05:00:58 PM
If only they did, but they did not.
OK, so don't lay all the blame on the immigrants, then.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 05:00:58 PM
Yes, of course, but it is so different from the circumstances that you describe that it undermines the very point of your own original reference to having gone to the Netherlands by train carrying a valid EU passport. Should we presume that after those four days you had run out of money and had no more to spend as you say you'd spent it? If so, you'd presumably by that time used up your entire credit limit on that £6M credit card of which you wrote in another thread. You must have encountered some pretty expensive - er - service providers, then...

Of course it is bloody different.

As for my credit card, it could have been used to hire the services of the young lady i saw. However, i could not find where to swipe it.

Thal
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #38 on: June 25, 2009, 05:03:23 PM
OK, so don't lay all the blame on the immigrants, then.


I don't blame them for wanting to come here.

I hope they don't blame me for wanting to keep them out.

Thal
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #39 on: June 25, 2009, 05:04:38 PM
Out of pure boredom, perhaps?

Well, she would have if you were the client Doris.

Would you have played her one of your Sorabji CD's?

Thal
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Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #40 on: June 25, 2009, 05:07:10 PM
Of course it is bloody different.

As for my credit card, it could have been used to hire the services of the young lady i saw. However, i could not find where to swipe it.

Thal
Really? No arrow "swipe here"? What did you do then? Try to put coins in the slot?

Merely (or merrily) looking at the girl would have been free, I think...

What did she look like? Revolted, nauseated, intrigued, suddenly tired ("oh no, not another of those foreigners with no money!")?

Quote
Well, she would have if you were the client Doris.
Which you base on...?

Quote
Would you have played her one of your Sorabji CD's?
Assuming I'd ever need the service of such a lady, and she would be interested, why not?
OC is 4,5 hours, might need to run it twice....

btw, I see you have a "peabrain" and "superdick" icon by you name. It may be asking for the obvious, but why these?

Now I must leave all of ye, other things to do, people to see....
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #41 on: June 25, 2009, 05:12:59 PM
At 160 Euros an hour, it would have been rather expensive to play the OC to a prozzie.

Whatever turns you on Doris.

Thal
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #42 on: June 25, 2009, 05:14:33 PM
Now I must leave all of ye, other things to do, people to see....

Time for your clog dancing class is it.

Hope you enjoy.

Thal
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Offline zheer

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #43 on: June 25, 2009, 05:31:52 PM
   I bet you voted BNP thalb, I agree that illegal immegration is a problem. However a large number non English in the UK are contributing to the nation in a positive way. The English continue to live where-ever they wish in the world and still exploit other nations. What you guys need is a modern William Wallace, insted you have the BNP pathetic.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #44 on: June 25, 2009, 05:51:21 PM
   I bet you voted BNP thalb, I agree that illegal immegration is a problem. However a large number non English in the UK are contributing to the nation in a positive way. The English continue to live where-ever they wish in the world and still exploit other nations. What you guys need is a modern William Wallace, insted you have the BNP pathetic.

Indeed, we have a large Asian community for instance that over the years has contributed massively to our Nation and i count myself very fortunate to have a couple of very good Asian friends.

I am going to try to be sensible for once as I want to make it clear that I am NOT totally against immigration and i am aware of the benefits, but i am totally against ILLEGAL immigration. The French rightly complain about the amount of immigrants in Calais for instance, as those people are only there because they want to come here. They want to come here because we are a soft touch.

Our piss pathetic governments inability to control this flood and to even have a open debate on the subject, has done more to increase the membership of the BNP than they could have ever done themselves. I did vote for the BNP in the European elections along with a rather disturbing 950,000 other people.

If my vote goes some way to getting the powers that be to eventually listen to the fears of ordinary working class Brits and to actually address the problem, it was worth voting for BNP.

The moment the government starts to do something and realise there is a problem, the BNP will be sent into the political abyss.

Thal
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Offline communist

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #45 on: June 25, 2009, 06:45:24 PM
Please do read more carefully what I wrote. Using the people coming from Poland as an example, I stated that ignoring those with criminal intend among groups of people coming into the country leads to a bad name for the whole group, i.e. including the goodwilling people (who are usually in the majority, I'd add). But if you still feel troubles from misreading my message, feel free to substitute Dutch tourists in Spain, of whom a number each year seem to go to Spain to boose and fornicate (I'll keep it nice...) as much as they possibly can, thereby giving all Dutch tourists a bad name in some areas.
I doubt you're in a position to do anything to or about me, actually. And copying Thal isn't very original, or funny, or mature. But then communists have never been of sound mind.....



I was actually mocking Thal. Nothing against you.
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Offline ahinton

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #46 on: June 26, 2009, 01:16:58 AM
At 160 Euros an hour, it would have been rather expensive to play the OC to a prozzie.
But then how much might it have cost you to sit and watch the service provider concerned fill out a Dutch tax return? (paying such a provider for the dubious privilege of obeserving such an activity is probably not the most bizarre contract ever entered into between provider and client)...

Whatever turns you on Doris.
Not quite sure who you're supposed to be addressing here, but what turns you onto "Doris" (whoever she may be), just out of interest?...

Anyway, how far does anyone think that whatever the initiator of this thread meant by "it" will go in Iran? (just thought that a brief aside about the topic might not come entirely amiss)...

Best,

Alistair
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Offline gep

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #47 on: June 26, 2009, 06:31:12 AM
Quote
Indeed, we have a large Asian community for instance that over the years has contributed massively to our Nation and i count myself very fortunate to have a couple of very good Asian friends.
These then not falling under the "Asian scum the UK has taken in"?
I wonder if these friends of yours should count themselves very fortunate having you for a friend...

Quote
Time for your clog dancing class is it.

Hope you enjoy.
And what would your problem be if I did?

Quote
Anyway, how far does anyone think that whatever the initiator of this thread meant by "it" will go in Iran? (just thought that a brief aside about the topic might not come entirely amiss)...
Indeed..
Iran? In short, I think it will go the way these things tend to go: bloody, messy and deadly. After which either the sitting powers are still sitting, and being worse then they were, or new powers will emerge and they will be worse than the once they replace.
Sad indeed, but I fear that this is the way such things usually go. Nothing changes more slowly than whole societies.

Gep
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #48 on: June 26, 2009, 07:30:44 AM
I wonder if these friends of yours should count themselves very fortunate having you for a friend...

They seem to think so. We have talked about immigration in the past and they are for strict controls as well.

Since all of them were born in England they probably consider themselves as much English as they do Asian.

Thal
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: How far do you think it will go in Iran?
Reply #49 on: June 26, 2009, 07:33:03 AM
And what would your problem be if I did?

No problem.

I would just think you are even more of a twat than i do now.

Thal
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Concerto Preservation Society
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