New E-book/print book about practicing

[gret49]

Hello Everyone,

Although Piano Forum has been active for years, I've just found it via a link from Twitter.  Happy to be here!

You may find a book I've just published to be of interest.  It's called "Goal-oriented Practice:  How to Avoid Traps and Become a Confident Performer," available in PDF and print formats.

The book identifies the things that slow us all down, and shows how to make steady progress.

It's getting great comments from readers!

For more info, including several reviews by pianists, please go to my website:
[link removed]
Looking forward to reading your posts!

Gretchen

[ask_why]

Looks like 35 pages of crap, and it's $12.95?  Go spam your junk somewhere else.

There's already a longer, better, FREE book for people truly interested in learning:  https://www.pianofundamentals.com/

[gret49]

Thanks for sharing.  Maybe you'd like to read the book before posting your opinion.

[stevebob]

Looks like 35 pages of crap, and it's $12.95?  Go spam your junk somewhere else.

There's already a longer, better, FREE book for people truly interested in learning:  https://www.pianofundamentals.com/

Gretchen's post may have the appearance of cross-posted spam, but I don't find your reaction to it any less inappropriate.  You don't speak for this forum, and you have no idea whether the book in question is "crap" or "junk" unless you actually did buy it and read it.

I can't understand why you didn't just report the post as inappropriate instead of cross-posting your identical rude responses.

[perfect_pitch]

Gretchen's post may have the appearance of cross-posted spam, but I don't find your reaction to it any less inappropriate. 

Maybe not - but when someone signs up to this forum, and the first bloody thing they do is post a thread all about their materials (three in fact - exactly the same)... I usually call spammer.

I don't come to this thread to self-publicise myself... I'm not an egotistical moron who needs some self-indulgence... I come here for the wisdom that others have to offer, and to help offer my wisdom to anyone who needs it.

Personally - I'm already uninterested, because I find it pathetic that people self-publicise like this.

[avguste]

personally, I think self-promotion is the best way for someone to get known.
In any case, it is an interesting subject.

[keyboardclass]

Hey, no way to treat a lady!  Still, if it's only 35 pages...

[thalbergmad]

I can't understand why you didn't just report the post as inappropriate instead of cross-posting your identical rude responses.

Indeed, but this is one thing that makes my blood boil so I can understand it.

It would not be so bad if it was from a longer standing member, but anyone who joins for the sole prupose of flogging their overpriced wares should be removed.

Advert reported.

Thal

[gret49]

I joined because I wanted to get to know other pianists.  But never mind.  I quit.

[thalbergmad]

Best to get to know people before you start to try to sell to them.

I think what you have done is bad manners.

Bye.

Thal

[birba]

Yeah, like where's your tact?

[stevebob]

The most curious thing is that Gretchen still gets her free advertising!

If I appeared to defend her, it was only because I felt the insults were unjustified.  The advertisement was inappropriate, especially as the first "contribution" from a brand-new member.  It could have been summarily removed without the attacks and drama that ensued (and perhaps it still ought to be).

[ask_why]

Gretchen's post may have the appearance of cross-posted spam, but I don't find your reaction to it any less inappropriate.  You don't speak for this forum, and you have no idea whether the book in question is "crap" or "junk" unless you actually did buy it and read it.

I can't understand why you didn't just report the post as inappropriate instead of cross-posting your identical rude responses.

It does look like 35 pages of crap (did you bother to read the preview?  It's just garbage about her personal life), it does cost $12.95, and her post definitely was spam.

Also, the 250+ page FREE book I linked is undoubtedly far superior.  Did I mention it's FREE... and the author doesn't pollute random piano forums with their self-promoting spam?

[stevebob]

I think you overreacted to the original post, and you're overreacting again.  The capitals, bold and scoring are evidence of that, and the substance of your points is stifled by their style.

For what it's worth, one of the teachers on this forum has opined that the book referenced by your link is "toilet paper" compared to the established works of piano pedagogy.

I still can't understand why this entire thread hasn't been deleted, as the original post clearly met the criteria that define both advertising and spam.

[avguste]

I think this thread really brings the discussion on self-promotion. Many people are not comfortable with self-promotion and don't like people doing it. This in my opinion is really old and outdated.
In this day and age, there is no better way to promote one self than self-promotion.

[thalbergmad]

I agree, but if you met someone for the first time, would you not wait a little while before starting to sell yourself.

Thal

[avguste]

I agree, but if you met someone for the first time, would you not wait a little while before starting to sell yourself.

Thal

Not necessarily. Each person makes its own decision on how to do it and it is based on how comfortable they feel.
Personally, I do lots of cold emailing. This means simply that I have a database of over 10000 names of presenters worldwide and on a regular basis I send them an introductory email about performing.
Cold emailing is similar to what this user, myself and others are doing on any forums.
Because at the end of the day, while you might be comfortable if we wait 1 month, some other people might still not be comfortable.

At the end of the day, each person cannot be pleased and for those of us involved in self-management and self-promotion, there is only one main item we are concerned about: our success

[stevebob]

This is not about "self-promotion."

In the context of a discussion forum, self-promotion in the form of announcements and links in sig lines of contributing members is generally tolerated.

Soliciting strangers to buy a product or service is advertising, and cross-posting of advertisements is spam.  We should be thankful that such practices are unacceptable, else message boards like this one would quickly go the way of Usenet.

[thalbergmad]

Cold emailing is similar to what this user, myself and others are doing on any forums.

Then you are no better than viagra spammers.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

For 'cold emailer' read SPAMMER!!

[avguste]

Then you are no better than viagra spammers.

Thal

My record of concert engagements speaks for itself. You can check this out at https://avgusteantonov.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=55

In this business, you can't hope for someone to discover you and offer you contracts and the likes.
One has to be proactive.

[thalbergmad]

You are incredible. Even in this thread you cannot resist posting a link.

Perhaps we need a special thread in this forum for spammers and self promoters.

Thal

[pianist1976]

But there are more spammers by here. There is some guy named MrFreeman whose ten out of his eleven messages are written only to promote his piano shop. Just an example:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=2741.msg438058#msg438058

(That was an incredible and surreal answer to the question "What (which) piano do you have?").

I think that this people should be more polite in a forum. A blatant advertising is (in my opinion) an offense to the rest of forum members.

[thalbergmad]

Interesting and also unwise as it appears that this person has his own forum.

Two can play at this game.

Thal

[Bob]

Avguste has participated in the forum though.  I don't think it's the same as a single post/advertisement.

Maybe there could be a board just for advertisements.  As in people selling music or instruments too.  If someone wanted to sell something of theirs then they might come in with one post and what they sell might be useful.

[stevebob]

Outside of this forum, Avguste is an e-mail spammer (by his own proud declaration).

I guess the end justifies the means—or so those who achieve success through an attitude of entitlement and MFFY would claim.  I think it's sad.

[richard black]

There's no hard and fast dividing line, is there? Someone who comes to this or any other forum in an attitude of friendship and humility and mentions that (s)he has something to offer that may interest members of the forum, whether that something is paid for or otherwise, isn't necessarily unwelcome if the something is of genuine value. But most certainly, people who pop up out of nowhere and open with a hard sell, especially when it's disguised as something other than a hard sell, are seldom going to endear themselves to anyone.

[stevebob]

Perhaps spam has something in common with pornography then.  Most people know it when they see it. 

[avguste]

Outside of this forum, Avguste is an e-mail spammer (by his own proud declaration).

I guess the end justifies the means—or so those who achieve success through an attitude of entitlement and MFFY would claim.  I think it's sad.

wrong!!!Spam (as quoted by Wikipedia) is the use of electronic messaging systems (including most broadcast media, digital delivery systems) to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately.

None of us do that. What we do is contact each presenter, each music director, each presenting organization informing them of our existence, of our accomplishments and of our availability for events and the likes.

Sure, some people, especially those that don't like or know about self-management or self-promotion may consider that spam, but at the end of the day, it is not spam. It is being proactive.
In this business you can't just sit and wait for someone to find you.

Forums are a bit similar. The only difference is that instead of reaching 1-2 persons, we reach thousands.

Now, I do agree with one item: everyone should be contributing to discussions
But again that is more or less common sense.

Now, to get back to this thread. I don't really understand what everyone's problem with it is. This person wrote a guide on piano practicing. And what best place to post than on a piano/music forum.

[furtwaengler]

I've got to say, reading this thread is a bit of a shock by the inflammatory reactions to what is in a sense, intelligent people doing their jobs making connections based on the technology of this time and the way the world is operating. Why be incensed with that!? It seems a bit insane.

What really boggles my mind is the negative reactions to Avguste, who, though I've not met him, strikes me as as tasteful and respectable and wise a self promoter as I've seen...even to make the point to both openly help others learn to create opportunities based on what has given him success, as well as include people he's never met in the process of building a structure for success, bringing mutual edification (in the physical sense...I couldn't find another word) - his own and those benefiting from his openness. As a result he's put himself in a situation where people like me, who's never met him, really take joy in his success and care about the things that he is doing in his career. What on earth is inflammatory about that? I'll state it here, at the end of December I'll have two sisters and a brother-in-law living in Dallas. When I go visit them I will also take it as an opportunity to go to Avguste Antonov, and pay his price to get some feedback on my playing. Every indication says I'd only benefit from such, and how would I have known of the opportunity with out his efforts using technology to promote his work?

Just my two cents...

(I should add, btw, the joy of discovery his investment in living composers has given!)

[stevebob]

Now, to get back to this thread. I don't really understand what everyone's problem with it is....

It's an issue of etiquette, and it's been explained.  You don't understand it, and you've made that clear.  But it's also a matter of rules:  different people and cultures may have differing standards of behavior, but we agree by our consensual presence here to follow the same set of rules.

I'll reiterate that Gretchen's actions cannot be defended as mere self-promotion, and Avguste continues to muddle the underlying issues.  Gretchen didn't engage in self-promotion in a customary way; she registered for the purpose of cross-posting ads for the product she is selling.  And when she was chastised, she responded with a classic sour grapes reaction.

If Avguste, by his own self-promoting behavior, has "put himself in a situation where people like [Furtwaengler], who's never met him, really take joy in his success and care about the things that he is doing in his career," he's also put himself in a situation that alienates and turns off other people.  Self-promotion can be accomplished without assuming, or defending, an attitude of entitlement and MFFY.

[thalbergmad]

It's an issue of etiquette, and it's been explained. 

Indeed it is and it has.

Avgust is more acceptable to me personally as he has contributed in other ways to the forum. I spit my venom at those who attempt to flog their wares on their first posts and then bugger off never to be seen again.

As you say, culture differences might explain some of the posts and why some members are more comfortable than others with spam/adverts and self promotion.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

Etiquette??? Goodness me, I think that members here have been ruder than merely spamming advertising in a forum and no one calls them up on that. What about the snide simplistic and useless remarks that some members post in response to serious discussions? How is that any ruder than posting business spam?

I think some people need to calm down and look at themselves before calling up other peoples on their manners. Obviously the forum moderators do not mind it. Who gives a damn really what someone else says, if you don't like it move on and stop thinking you have to prove something.

I also think that anyone promoting a book through the weak scatter gun approach of internet spamming hasn't got much of a product to begin with. Books are generally very difficult to sell to a publisher but that is not to say that you can sell them to music schools and directly approach your market. Personally I don't think that many members here are interested in purchasing goods on this website as most of us are not even gold members and merely want to promote musical discussion. So let these advertisers spam their product, it really shows how weak their product actually is.

[stevebob]

There's no evidence that "the forum moderators do not mind it."  Although this particular thread has indeed been condoned, similar threads launched under the same circumstances for the same transparent purpose have been summarily deleted.  It has happened regularly, and has happened even during the period that this singular discussion has been active.

[Bob]

I still like the idea of a separate board.  It's fun to troll through cheap ad products sometime.  Some aren't that bad or you get ideas from it.  If each ad has its own thread people can comment on it.  I was wondering if someone would give some things away for free so we could critique them.  

And when these threads do pop up, it would be an easy decision to move them all into an ad board.

I haven't minded seeing avguste's posts.  He's promoting himself in the ways I've heard, although I didn't know about mass emailing until this thread.  Website, youtube videos, etc., I've heard about as things people should be doing if they want to promote themselves.

[stevebob]

I can understand the appeal of Bob's idea, but there's a problem:  considerations of etiquette, manners and taste aside, advertising is presently against the rules of the forum.

https://www.pianostreet.com/forumrules.php

"Any kind of advertising or spamming is prohibited."

[avguste]

This is great to have such a discussion and as far as I am concerned, this type of debate is good.

To furtwaengler :

Thank you for the kind comments.
Great to hear that you will be in the Dallas area. Don't forget to check out the new Dallas Cowboys stadium   From what I have heard it is a pretty impressive sight.

It would be a pleasure to hear you play. I will send you a more detailed private message about this.
--------------

Now to respond and continue the debate.

In a way furtwaengler is correct. We are in the 21st century and in the 21st century, technology (facebook, emails, fax, skype, messengers and such) are used to connect (for personal reason or job related).
Some people are "incensed" by what some of us do (self-management, self-promotion) because it is more or less a new trend.

Self management, self promotion doesn't change from country to country. We all use the methods, same tools.

to thalbergmad

You don't where the original poster is. Maybe she got surprised and turned off by the how much negative and derogatory comments this thread has had and still has, and simply doesn't intend on coming back. Or posting.

Personally, I would be back, but again, I have a tough skin, and personally I don't care about what anyone thinks or says concerning how I do my business.

But consider that many of the comments are kinda derogatory and maybe she is reading, but has no intention of ever posting here.

By the way, I have checked her site, the reviews of her book and it is all genuine.

to lostinidlewonder

I agree with you. If people don't like something, move on.

However, I disagree with your comment that advertising on forums and so forth is a show of a weak product.
Promoting on forums is not a weak method. It is one of the best. Why?simply because on forums such as this one, such as PianoWorld and others, we reach thousands of people with one simple post.

to stevebob

One can never please everybody.

to BoB

What myself and others do is not exactly mass emailing.
Mass email is done by using softwares such as MailChimp and the likes.
What I do is email each presenter (or department faculties for schools) on an individual basis. Each email is tailored to the presenter and study the presenter site, previous seasons before I email them.

Youtube videos, website, press kit, resume and so forth will not take anyone far without a PR campaign (including self promotion)

[stevebob]

avguste,

Advertising and cross-posting aren't allowed here.  Full stop.  Why do you persist in depicting what Gretchen did (i.e., advertise and cross-post) as equivalent to what you justify doing in the name of "self-promotion"?

I find nothing "great" about this discussion; we wouldn't be having it if rules were consistently enforced.  If you find that "this type of debate is good," you should be having it with the forum's administrator.  We all accept the rules by posting here, and we don't get to decide policy.

Please stop confusing legitimate and respectable "self-promotion" with tactics that expressly violate the rules of the forum.

By the way, the commercial links in your own signature line are also a violation.  If you think the rules don't apply to you, that's the essence of entitlement and MFFY.

[avguste]

Actually, whatever way you turn it, what the original poster is doing is self-promotion.
And what a better place to post about her book than a piano forum.

My signature is nothing commercial. It is my site, my business email, the site for my management company and the contact email for my management company

[perfect_pitch]

Actually, whatever way you turn it, what the original poster is doing is self-promotion.
And what a better place to post about her book than a piano forum.

No... When you sign up to a forum and immediately start posting whatever sh*t you want to peddle - that's spamming.

The only reason I don't consider you a spammer is because you still contribute valuable info to other forum members. Yes, you may promote yourself, but you're still a wealth of information about piano and repertoire, among other things.

[pianist1976]

Actually, whatever way you turn it, what the original poster is doing is self-promotion.
And what a better place to post about her book than a piano forum.

My signature is nothing commercial. It is my site, my business email, the site for my management company and the contact email for my management company

I have nothing to complain about your signature but regarding to a forum been the best place to do self-promotion I think you are wrong. I always thought that a forum was a place to exchange opinions, argue and learn from the others, not a place to do blatant advertising of commercial products. In order to do a fair self-promotion we have the wonderful Audition Room, for example. I don't think it's ethical to promote products in a forum which rules forbids it.

[myrrha]

Oh my God, you guys are probably just not clever enough for self-promotion and can't bear it that someone else is. People could never let other people do things that they are better at tham themselves. And so many words, all meaning 'stop doing it because I can't do it!'

[stevebob]

Actually, whatever way you turn it, what the original poster is doing is self-promotion.
And what a better place to post about her book than a piano forum.

My signature is nothing commercial. It is my site, my business email, the site for my management company and the contact email for my management company

Actually, what the original poster did surpassed ordinary and acceptable self-promotion.  It violated the rules of the forum.  By defending it, you imply that's just fine.  It's not.

The link to your management company is a commercial link.  It belongs on your website.

Oh my God, you guys are probably just not clever enough for self-promotion and can't bear it that someone else is. People could never let other people do things that they are better at tham themselves. And so many words, all meaning 'stop doing it because I can't do it!'

Less than an hour after registering, you think you know more about the participants here than we know ourselves and are making personal attacks.  That's special!

[myrrha]

It's interesting how people twist everything in favour of their condemns. A question to all the attackers:

How much are you guys paid for attacking other people on this forum?

[stevebob]

It's interesting how people twist everything in favour of their condemns. A question to all the attackers:

How much are you guys payed for attacking other people on this forum?

What are "condemns"?

[avguste]

to stevebob

actually, you are wrong. The link for the management company takes you to the roster of artists. Nothing to sell or buy on that page.

to pianist1976

I agree with you to a point. Yes, forums are about discussions, arguing, debate and anything in between.
However at the same time, it is also one of the best ways to reach hundreds if not thousands of potential listeners/clients/presenters.

[stevebob]

Actually, the misapprehension is your own.  Price Rubin is a commercial enterprise that sells the service of representing and marketing musicians.  A link to a commercial enterprise would, I believe, meet the definition of a "commercial link."

"Nothing to buy or sell on that page"?  The company's slogan:  "We take you to the market place [sic]."  What happens in the marketplace?  Commerce!

[avguste]

to perfect_pitch

Thank you for the comment. Much appreciated

to stevebob

sure, PRP is a commercial entity, nothing new about it.
It is a management company, which deals with artists, presenters and the likes. But again, that page sells nothing. Whether you go to our contracts page or not,that is up to you.
But initially, that link is to our classical division page where one can see the roster of artists.

[stevebob]

Your claim that a link to a commercial entity is not a "commercial link" seems absurd.  The page sells the artists who are depicted on it.

I’m genuinely perplexed and would be interested in the answers to several questions:

• Why does enforcement of the forum’s ban on advertising and cross-posting appear to be selective and arbitrary?
• Why is this particular thread tacitly approved as an exception to the rule?
• What defines a “commercial link” that is disallowed in signature lines?

Perhaps the forum’s management can intercede here and illuminate us.

[pianowolfi]

Well to me it seems quite simple. If I think somebody is really spamming I just hit the "report" button. (And this happens very rarely!!) And then it's up to Nils and his crew to decide.
I think Nils and his crew use to react very sensitively and objectively.

So for me there is actually no reason to even start a discussion about this.

Of course we as musicians need "self promotion"!
Sometimes we even need to do "shameless advertising"!
Of course excessive self promotion goes on everybody's nerves!
Of course spam goes on everybody's nerves.
And everybody here knows that.