Chopin's Etude Op.10 no.1 or Liszt's Un Sospiro?

[paulturtle92]

I've been studying Chopin's "waterfall" etude for about half a year now, but still miss many notes (around 1 in 10!!) when playing them at the actual speed. As for Un Sospiro, I've been playing for a month, and can get through about half of the etude without mistakes.  If I'm lucky, of course. 

So, basically what I would like to know is which one is better for an intermediate amateur?  I'd like to pick just one for studying purposes, as I haven't got enough time for both. ><

Any suggestions would be helpful, thanks!

On an unrelated note, what do you guys think about Haydn's Piano Sonata, H. XVI?

[pianisten1989]

Okey, so... intermediate amateur is just words, they don't really mean anything. It depends on who you ask. So, pick any of them...

But here's the thing. Why do you try to play it in the actual speed if you miss that many notes? Take down the tempo, and don't raise it until you hit all notes, and don't raise it like a crazy person. You have to be smart to play the piano (I'm not saying you are dumb, we've all been there) so don't play it fast if you can't...

[paulturtle92]

@ pianisten1989
I just tried it at the actual tempo to see how "good" I was.  I normally practise at around 75% speed, with no pedaling.  On that matter, should I practise with or without the pedal?  And about the "dumb" part, no offense taken 

As for Un Sospiro, the cadenza passages really put me off.   Just venting my anger at Liszt, ignore this line. 

[stevebob]

What is "actual speed" here?  If you're aiming for 176 bpm or even 144, which are the tempi commonly given in various editions, that's almost certainly unrealistic unless one is (or aspires to be) a performing professional.

I was never able to play Op. 10 No. 1 with reliable accuracy faster than around 124, but I still found it musical and beneficial at that tempo.

[paulturtle92]

What is "actual speed" here?  If you're aiming for 176 bpm or even 144, which are the tempi commonly given in various editions, that's almost certainly unrealistic unless one is (or aspires to be) a performing professional.

I was never able to play Op. 10 No. 1 with reliable accuracy faster than around 124, but I still found it musical and beneficial at that tempo.

I normally practise at around 120, if I'm having a bad day then maybe 90.  The "actual" speed for me is 176.  Come to think of it, it's pretty impossible to practise at that speed for me. Maybe I'll stick with getting 100% accuracy at slower tempos before speeding up.  Thanks steve, and thanks pianisten!

[stevebob]

Though I didn't explicitly say so before, I do agree with pianisten's advice to you.

Here are a couple of other things worth mentioning:

• It's said that the pianos of Chopin's era had lighter actions and shallower key-dips, which may have made such an extreme tempo as 176 more easily achievable then; and
  
  
• Also, while some contemporary professionals certainly can (and do) play extremely fast, it's become fairly standard to play most anything that's merely "fast" as fast as possible (probably just because they can!).  But consider that Chopin marked only two of the etudes Presto, and Op. 10 No. 1 is a plain, unqualified Allegro (no matter what M.M. setting is apparently authentic).

[keyboardclass]

It doesn't really matter which one, just go slowly (as the posts above say).

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin's 10/1 is more of an etude, so if you want to right hand arpeggio's and strength its much better to 'use' the chopin etude.

Un Sospiro is not really an etude btw, so you cant use it for studying purposes like -most of the- chopin etudes.

[keyboardclass]

Chopin's 10/1 is more of an etude,

Is that all?

[gyzzzmo]

Is that all?

What would you like to add thats relevant? 

[keyboardclass]

What would you like to add thats relevant? 

I think it's more taking away the 'more of an etude' bit.  It's a bit nonsensical.  I believe the Duke of Wellington summed it up best - just cause you're born in a stable doesn't make you a horse (did you know he was a violin teacher?)

[gyzzzmo]

Should i have said, 'the chopin etude is more an etude than Liszt's Un Sospiro because it is more focussed on one particular difficulty'? Does that make you happer?

[omar_roy]

Given what you've said about these pieces, I feel like you're not ready for either of them.

Especially if you've been working at that Chopin etude for 6 months now.  Neither of these pieces are meant for "intermediate amateurs."

It doesn't do you any good to pick out pieces that are too far above your technical ability.  Of course you should always look to expand your musical and technical abilities by choosing pieces that are slightly more difficult than your technique allows; that's the only way we become better pianists, but you have to be careful that you don't pick something so far out of reach that you end up building bad habits.

[pianisten1989]

I though about it... I don't think I've played any chopin etude in full tempo the first time I play it.
Take like 140 bmp, and aim for hitting at least 90%, then don't play it for a year. The next time you play it, aim a bit faster and a bit better.. Go on like that until you play it as fast as you want

[john11inc]

I think it's more taking away the 'more of an etude' bit.  It's a bit nonsensical.  I believe the Duke of Wellington summed it up best - just cause you're born in a stable doesn't make you a horse (did you know he was a violin teacher?)

Oh, jeeze!  Did the Duke of Wellington really say that?!?

Well, I'm going to have to change my whole opinion, now.  That Duke of Wellington: what an insightful man.  I certainly can't disagree with him, much less the reaching way in which you analogously use what he said in a completely different context.

[keyboardclass]

I certainly can't disagree with him, much less the reaching way in which you analogously use what he said in a completely different context.

As I said he was a violin teacher - surely that's some context?

[gyzzzmo]

As I said he was a violin teacher - surely that's some context?

Or should that context refer to you, since you're in a keyboardclass?

[ahinton]

Oh, jeeze!  Did the Duke of Wellington really say that?!?

Well, I'm going to have to change my whole opinion, now.  That Duke of Wellington: what an insightful man.  I certainly can't disagree with him, much less the reaching way in which you analogously use what he said in a completely different context.

Well, never mind the Duke of Wellington - Sorabji once said that a kitten born in a kennel could not be a puppy (although, to be fair, he was very much a cat lover).

Best,

Alistair

[lisztomaniac]

un sospiro

[pianisten1989]

un sospiro

I really love answers without any comment. Just a simple answer, like music is the same thing as mathematics.

[keyboardclass]

...or cussing.

[gyzzzmo]

Btw, at paulturtle92:

It is abit of a strange choice whether to pick 10/1 or 'Un Sospiro' for study purposes.
Those 2 etudes are quite different from each other, technically seen, you should pick an etude based on your technical weaknesses.

[ch101]

practicing waterfall right now.
did i take it up to 176? no.
did i take it up to half that?
um, no.

[keyboardclass]

Good for you.  Do easy.

[stevebob]

practicing waterfall right now.
did i take it up to 176? no.
did i take it up to half that?
um, no.

Waterfall?  Eeeew.

[ivory88]

Considering all that has been said throughout the conversation above, I believe that anything said about Un Suspiro being an Etude is completely opposite of what it is. When Liszt wrote Un Suspiro, he wrote it, not as an Etude, but such as a poem. Although, just through the sheer way it is written, it does help the pianist in question gain more technical abilities in his fingers.

On another note (pun intended), I do agree with those that say practice it slowly.  I heard a recording, and tried to take it up to tempo almost immediately, and consequently, I memorized it wrong, therefore I had to relearn it in order to play it rightly. Any reader must keep in mind, that I have dissected this piece completely, having worked on it for almost a full 12 months now... (talk about dedication. Although, it has gotten a bit frustrating at points.  )

Completely off topic... Even as I am a piano student of only 8 years, I find, that more difficult than any piano piece written, is the ability to play the Organ with as much discipline as a virtuoso pianist does the piano.  As I strive for this level of virtuosity on the organ, I am asking if anyone knows of any piano exercises that would be beneficial to my playing of the organ.

[j_menz]

I believe that anything said about Un Suspiro being an Etude is completely opposite of what it is. When Liszt wrote Un Suspiro, he wrote it, not as an Etude, but such as a poem.

Nope. Liszt's Etudes are actual etudes, always a study of one (or more) technical bits or tone productions.

"[Un Sospiro] is a study in crossing hands, playing a simple melody with alternating hands, and arpeggios. It is also a study in the way hands should affect the melody with its many accentuations, or phrasing with alternating hands." [ source Wikipaedia, so unarguably gospel  ]

[ivory88]

Well, considering that that information is from Wikipedia, it has to be true right? (sarcastically)

And now that I finally find a paper that I printed off a long time ago, I must agree; and therefore i withdraw what I said earlier about "Un Suspiro" not being an etude.  I refer to fact that it was the third written from Liszt's Trois études de concert.

Regardless, to the original question stated a long time ago, I believe that it isn't a matter of being and Intermediate Amateur or not. Those are just words, I have been playing eight years, consistently, but to a virtuoso pianist (such as Wilhelm Kempff) I would be considered a beginner. Therefore, my answer to the question is to pursue both. But only work on one at a time. The way in which you would do this is to work on whichever piece you wish to first, for about, say, three months. and then let it go for three while you work on the other piece. And keep doing this in three month increments. Occasionally, during each three month period, pull out the piece your laying off, and play through it once or twice during the second month.  This way, you keep switching styles, and therefore you are challenging your brain to think about the music much more than you (it) would normally. If any of that makes sense.

[pytheamateur]

Yes, practise slowly.

See the latest blog from Graham Fitch: https://practisingthepiano.com/, "Practice Makes Permanent".  He suggests practising, if necessary, at a quarter of the speed.

"The deepest form of satisfaction comes, surely, from a job well done, from seeing an investment mature (I always think of practising as investing, and playing as spending)."
 
Interesting metaphor.