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Topic: Ian Pace on Sorabji  (Read 13197 times)

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #150 on: March 26, 2011, 09:40:55 PM
How, then, are we "purging this site of stupidity"?  Such ignorance, insolence, arrogance and abuse certainly hasn't been limited to this thread.  I'm now convinced that any interaction with, or response to, this person constitutes the feeding of a voracious troll.

You're the only troll here. Ad hominem without substance. I gave you a chance to redeem yourself, you choose not to take it. You continue to attack everyone else on this forum as if you're so great, yet when I argue against you, you have nothing to back up your claims other than "No comment". Either that, or more ad hominem. Go get a life.

Offline stevebob

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #151 on: March 26, 2011, 09:44:23 PM
You're the only troll here. Ad hominem without substance. I gave you a chance to redeem yourself, you choose not to take it. You continue to attack everyone else on this forum as if you're so great, yet when I argue against you, you have nothing to back up your claims other than "No comment". Either that, or more ad hominem. Go get a life.

No comment; quoted so that you can't edit your abusive language.
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #152 on: March 26, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
djealnla:
You were the one who started attacking me.

Since you were the one who started this pointless and off-topic discussion.

I claim that you do not have intelligence because you have nothing to back up your claims.

My claims are as follows:

"Alistair is capable of writing in an intelligible manner." - You agreed with this.
"I'm intelligent." - Proven repeatedly across my life, many people would be willing to testify to that. What do you want me to do? Make a video of myself taking an IQ test and then put in on YouTube?
"Your posts are worthless." - What exactly have they contributed to this discussion? Only a load of off-topicness. It's possible Alistair and me are genuinely guilty of posting irrelevant things, but we have contributed with many useful thoughts to this discussion, so, to speak in a slightly Biblical (or even better, Lutheran) fashion, our sins are covered (by the Lamb, even if I'm only a sheep ::)). You, on the other hand, have only managed to screw this discussion up.

In short, all my claims can easily be proven true.

All you did was swear at me, and praise ahinton.

OK, please show me where exactly I praised him.

Just to avoid confusion:

Definition of PRAISE
transitive verb
1
: to express a favorable judgment of : commend
2
: to glorify (a god or saint) especially by the attribution of perfections


Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/praise

Why am I not allowed to express my opinion, while others (who happen to agree with you) are?

No one here is questioning the concept of freedom of speech, but trolling definitely isn't welcome on this site.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #153 on: March 26, 2011, 09:57:23 PM
wow, some people really are shameless, aren't they. My abusive language? How about your abusive language. "ignorance, insolence, abuse... voracious troll" and you're saying I'm using abusive language? You make a good comedian, I give you that much.


I've explained why I feel that such a topic does not make sense.


Quote
In short, all my claims can be easily be proven true.

If you really are intelligent, you won't use the word "proven" so lightly. They are your opinions. So if I kill a guy, and saved another guy (in two completely unrelated instances) then I've done no bad and no good? I don't see that logic.

Again, my contribution is the recognization that it's pointless to argue on how somehow else thinks, since you can only say for certain how you think yourself. After all, people's minds change, right? Perhaps Mr. Pace has already changed his opinions on Sorabji.

Doesn't it make more since to you to simply talk about sorabji's music instead?


YOu never directly praised ahinton. But the implications are there when you defend him so much, and say how he'll write a 26 paragraph whatever, saying that he is intelligent, etc etc etc...

EDIT: Not that praising Ahinton is a bad thing;

Point is, you shouldn't start swearing at someone after seeing two posts from them. Agree?

Offline stevebob

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #154 on: March 26, 2011, 10:00:08 PM
wow, some people really are shameless, aren't they. My abusive language? How about your abusive language. "ignorance, insolence, abuse... voracious troll" and you're saying I'm using abusive language? You make a good comedian, I give you that much.

Come sopra.
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #155 on: March 26, 2011, 10:01:59 PM

"Alistair is capable of writing in an intelligible manner." - You agreed with this.
"I'm intelligent." - Proven repeatedly across my life, many people would be willing to testify to that. What do you want me to do? Make a video of myself taking an IQ test and then put in on YouTube?
"Your posts are worthless." - What exactly have they contributed to this discussion? Only a load of off-topicness. It's possible Alistair and me are genuinely guilty of posting irrelevant things, but we have contributed with many useful thoughts to this discussion, so, to speak in a slightly Biblical (or even better, Lutheran) fashion, our sins are covered (by the Lamb, even if I'm only a sheep ::)). You, on the other hand, have only managed to screw this discussion up.


Are you John's sister ;D
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Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #156 on: March 26, 2011, 10:08:41 PM
Since there has been multiple posts after mine, I'll just post it as a new post.
I'm not sure whether or not you are hirsute (and it's none of my business anyway), but either way you do appear to having quite a bad hair day, as you suggested earlier, so perhaps we are all supposed to forgive you for ranting as you have now done.

Again, you are pretending to be an idiot.
That almost sounds like a kind of failed ad hominem to me - or at least it might do so were it not a fatuous notion that anyone who is not an idiot would seek to pretend to be one.

It is clear that "on my side" refers to the people who are, on your side. Or are you really incapable of comprehending the fact that besides literal meanings, words can also have figurative meanings, or be used a metaphors and examples?
What you evidently fail to comprehend here is that I am not "taking sides" or inviting anyone else here to do so; I do, however, agree that words can indeed have many meanings and the English language has more of them than most and offers many more opportunities for varieties of interpretation.

Also, I must say, multiple posting is the most typical act of spammers, and to not even have one of those posts be on topic, I really don't think you have the right to say anyone else is off topic.
Multiple posting is a typical activity of spammers only when the content of the posts concerned indicates that it is such. You may observe as you choose as to what rights you think I may have, but that is a matter for you and you alone.

But this sentence explains it all; You've got nothing to argue against my point, so you have to take such desperate measures to avoid this argument.
There is no need to take any measures, desperate or otherwise, to "avoid" anything that is not actually present, as in this case; no point, therefore no opportunity for arguments for or against one.

I might as well say "I will ignore your compliment" to your whole post, but I feel like ranting today.
I have not complimented you, but you may nevertheless say so if you so choose; the fact that you feel like ranting is patently obvious and I'm sure that we'll all read your rant as such, rather than as the submission of interesting points for discussion.

If stating the fact that your own posts are off topic was "obvious", why would it be any different for mine?
Did I suggest that it is?

Why do you take the initiative of commenting on how my post was off topic? Why not any of the people who are ON YOUR SIDE? Because they didn't criticize you?
It was hardly an "initiative" and, as I have already observed, I'm not even interested in side-taking here.

Again, off topic red herring.
What is?

It doesn't matter who said what, that doesn't lower the value of the statement itself.
When the statements have little or nothing useful to offer, I agree with you that it matters little who may have made them.

But the fact is, my quoting of gyzzzmo's words shows two things:

1. I clearly intended to credit gyzzzmo, or else I wouldn't have quoted what he said, and just said it myself.

2. I clearly agree with what he said, which was why I quoted it in the first place. I'm not crediting myself with coming up with those words, but I am certainly trying to make the same point he was making; or am I not allowed to agree with him? What he wrote wasn't poetry or anything sophisticated; it is clear on how to interpret it.
OK, so your quoting of gyzzzmo was intended to reveal that you agree with what you quoted rather than credit yourself with having written it; that was not especially clear previously but at least you have made it so now. Of course you are entitled to agree with gyzzzmo, just as I am to write as I did in response to that post.

You clearly were responding to me with your post, which means you were arguing against me, my values and my opinions.
The two do not necessarily go together, but if I do disagree with any of your "values and opinions", as is indeed the case, it would be dishonest of me to suggest otherwise.

Thus, I am responding from my perspective. If I happen to agree with gyzzzmo, that doesn't mean I'm stealing his statement and giving credit to myself. Such a notion is laughable.
I even pointed out my point, which you convienently chose to ignore and say there is no point.
We've already covered the first part of this but, as to your actual "point", I cannot ignore what is not there and I believe that you have failed to make one worthy of the name.

Ad hominem attack.
A thing to which you'd never personally stoop, of course...

Whether I write with perfect grammar or not does not lessen my argument.
No, indeed not; having little or no argument does that far more effectively.

No one is expecting everyone to have the same vocabulary.
I agree entirely; indeed, I have already said the same myself.

After all, there are many professional jargon that only professionals know. However, for the purpose of a forum such as this, there is basically no need to use any complicated words that other people wouldn't understand to get your point across. You can just as easily use simpler words. In fact, it may be easier. But you choose not to, and instead write wordy sentences, which makes me think that you are trying to show off your writing.
Where are the "complicated words" in what I write? Some words might be unfamiliar to some, but none are of themselves "complicated" - which is the wrong descriptive term in any case, "complex" being the correct one. Something is only "complicated" is someone or something has enhanced its inherent complexity or turned something simple into something more complex. If it pleases you to think that I am "showing off" my linguistic prowess, so be it; I cannot agree, however, since I possess so little of it.

But obviously you're not showing off your intelligence.
That is presumably your personal opinion but, in any case, I am not trying to "show off" anything for the sake of so doing.

Just as well, you can quote my views on Sorabji, or even gyzzzmo's, although I'm not sure what the point would be. Similarly, there isn't a point in purely discussing about Ian Pace's views. It is much more productive to just discuss about Sorabji's music, and in the process bring in some comments from other musicians, which may or may not be Ian Pace.
I did not initiate this thread, so you should address your concerns as to its validity or otherwise to the forum member who did so - not to me.

Again, you resort to a literal reading of my words. "Told" does not have to be him using his voice to say directly to someone. Written work counts as well.
I know that, but I pointed out that john11inch has quoted what Mr Pace has written and this has been put forward as material for discussion; if you consider that material unworthy of discussion, all you ever needed to do is say so and then back off from further comment.

Either way, there is no argument on what he thinks, if he thinks it he thinks it. What productive discussion can come from that?

"Mr. Ian Pace thinks x"

"I agree with Mr. Pace"

"I disagree"

/thread

*The above is an example, not to be taken literally. So please, don't say "I have no idea what x is, so I can't comment on whether Ian Pace believes in x or not, or something to that effect.*
Again, you take the literal meaning of my quote. Clearly people's opinions can change. But it doesn't change simply because someone thinks something. Or at least it shouldn't.

A change in perspectives and opinions can occur with a productive discussion. Discussing whether a believes b is not (see example above)
I do agree with quite a bit of what you write here but, again, you seem to be writing from the perspective of assuming that it doesn't matter what Mr Pace thinks or why - and that his thoughts, valid or otherwise, should not and indeed cannot influence what others may think about Sorabji and his work; the member who began this thread has opened it up for discussion, as he is entitled to do, s I suggest once again that you address your concerns to him.

Basically, all you've done is red herring across my arguments and use ad hominem attacks against me and my writing.
You're a far more experienced ad hominem maker than I, so I bow to your superiority in this talent. I prefer red mullet to red herring anyway.

You've not cleared yourself of the FACT that you're both a hypocrit
"Hypocrite" ends in an "e" and, since I've not been placed in a court of law to answer charges of hypocrisy and since no one has proved that it is a FACT that I am a hypocrite, I have no more interest in "clearing" myself thereof than I have any need so to do.

...a show off spammer with nothing significant to say, other than using a plethora of logical fallacies to argue against something that was not said...
Try to make sure that your mirror doesn't crack while you're holding it...

you have good writing skills, which I must admit
This time I'll accept your compliment, although I make no claim for it myself.

On the other hand, I really have nothing to say to djealnla.
Then please don't!

Not only does this person only use ad hominem
Really? And your evidence for this is...(?)...

but even their writing
"her" writing...

is unsophisticated and dull
Whereas yours is a model of intellectual brilliance and cultured intelligence?

But I guess that's why this person faithfully follows you, ahinton (again, not literal).
Or figurative either. I do not know who does any such thing.

Those with no intelligence do follow like sheep.
True in some instances, to be sure - so who do you follow, then? No, don't bother to answer - there's no need, really...

Back to topic, anyone?

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #157 on: March 26, 2011, 10:13:16 PM
I went back and read through this thread a bit. Since reply #94, there has been maybe 3 on topic posts, two of which were by geb.

Note that I started posting here at around 120, so it started going offtopic, way before I posted here, and really, I was commenting on how offtopic this topic was going. So it's quite ironic, really.

But if we look closer, post 94 is exactly what I was talking about, and why this thread doesn't have much value.

If you're saying that Ian Pace does not back up his claims, then what more is there to talk about? Can't talk about justification anymore...

So really, the only thing left is about Sorabji's music. Which has nothing to do with Ian Pace! I will try to make my point one last time:

It should not matter what Ian Pace thinks of Sorabji's music. A discussion on Sorabji's music centered around someone who won't even justify his own position is a waste of time, and won't bring about productive discussion. It makes much more since to directly talk about Sorabji's music itself, and occassionally bringing in the opinions of others, suh as Ian Pace.

Furthermore, it is also more fruitful to write in such a way that everyone can understand, as opposed to only a few people.

@ahinton: I really cannot believe you.

You don't realize the hypocracy in your posts? I can similarly say that you have no argument whatsoever just as you do, but I choose not to, because it isn't very fruitful. You really don't realize how none of your "arguments" against "mine" are really arguing against what I'm saying? Stop distorting what I'm saying.

EDIT:

Ahinton, I put a quote of what you said, and right under it I said "off topic red herring". Yet you're asking me "what is?"

Can you please enlighten me on how to make this clearer? That I was referring to the quote RIGHT before that sentence?

Offline richard black

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #158 on: March 26, 2011, 11:55:15 PM
Potatoes.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #159 on: March 27, 2011, 12:35:01 AM
What is this chap on about??

Paragraphs of nothing.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #160 on: March 27, 2011, 12:36:34 AM
What is this chap on about??

Paragraphs of nothing.

Thal
why is this chap spamming?

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #161 on: March 27, 2011, 07:01:41 AM
I've explained why I feel that such a topic does not make sense.

Your explanation is logically fallacious.

1. Ian Pace has made several statements about Sorabji in the past.
2. Several people have found those statements offensive.
3. Some people (or, in this case, me), decided to discuss what possible arguments he could present to defend his own claims or what motivation he might have for making such statements.
4. Just like we may discuss Hanslick's relationship towards Bruckner, so can we talk about Pace's relationship towards Sorabji's musical and literary output.
5. According to your absurd logic, no one should comment on any single human relationship. So, when one of your descendants gets married, you better not tell him/her "it's quite clear you love her/him", since you would be commenting on a human relationship, which according to you is redundant, as you have implied in this thread.

If you really are intelligent, you won't use the word "proven" so lightly. They are your opinions. So if I kill a guy, and saved another guy (in two completely unrelated instances) then I've done no bad and no good? I don't see that logic.

I was talking about you, OK?

YOu never directly praised ahinton. But the implications are there when you defend him so much, and say how he'll write a 26 paragraph whatever, saying that he is intelligent, etc etc etc...

Can't you read? I said JOHN ("john11inch", just to be clear) would reply to your claim that this discussion is pointless. I didn't defend him (i.e., Alistair) "so much"; if I'm not mistaken, I defended his English only once in this thread. Defending somebody is not the same as praising him (or, as you implied elsewhere, blindly following him), and I can say I'm quite critical of Alistair at times. Just because I decided to deal with your claim about Alistair's English does not mean I venerate him (i.e., Alistair) as if the Pope had beatified him.

Point is, you shouldn't start swearing at someone after seeing two posts from them. Agree?

Probably yes, but you shouldn't expect people to treat you nicely if you post something entirely off-topic, while also slightly mocking others (in this case, Alistair and "thalbergmad").

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #162 on: March 27, 2011, 07:21:55 AM
Are you John's sister ;D

Actually, John only has a brother, as far as I know. ;)

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #163 on: March 27, 2011, 08:29:12 AM
Potatoes.
Chipped. And on certain shoulders, it would seem. And some with excessively thick skins; others with blight...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #164 on: March 27, 2011, 09:09:34 AM
If you're saying that Ian Pace does not back up his claims, then what more is there to talk about? Can't talk about justification anymore...

So really, the only thing left is about Sorabji's music. Which has nothing to do with Ian Pace! I will try to make my point one last time:

It should not matter what Ian Pace thinks of Sorabji's music. A discussion on Sorabji's music centered around someone who won't even justify his own position is a waste of time, and won't bring about productive discussion. It makes much more since to directly talk about Sorabji's music itself, and occassionally bringing in the opinions of others, suh as Ian Pace.
Broadly, I agree with you in principle, but I also agree with djealnla's point (which I have also made myself) that, as Mr Pace has made numerous forthright comments on the composer and his work, there is something to discuss if anyone wishes to initiate such a discussion as has been the case with this thread. Of course, however, there will be far less mileage in any such discussion that would be the case with a "Marc-André Roberge on Sorabji", or Jonathan Powell, Simon Abrahams, Donna Amato, Alexander Abercrombie, Paul Rapoport, etc., since all have worked extensively and productively with Sorabji's material over a good many years as scholars, performers and editors, so each would have far more useful things to say.

Furthermore, it is also more fruitful to write in such a way that everyone can understand, as opposed to only a few people.
"Everyone" - regardless of age, mother tongue, etc.? Quite a challenge, that!

@ahinton: I really cannot believe you.
Your problem.

You don't realize the hypocracy in your posts? I can similarly say that you have no argument whatsoever just as you do, but I choose not to, because it isn't very fruitful. You really don't realize how none of your "arguments" against "mine" are really arguing against what I'm saying? Stop distorting what I'm saying.
It's hypocrisy", not "hypocracy". There is none in any case. You may say what you wish, as indeed you have done, despite claiming in one instance that you choose not to. You distort your own contributions far more effectively than I could.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #165 on: March 27, 2011, 09:13:47 AM
Just because I decided to deal with your claim about Alistair's English does not mean I venerate him (i.e., Alistair) as if the Pope had beatified him.
Thank God (sorry!) for that; I cannot imagine any pontiff giving so much as a moment's thought to implementing so drastic and inappropriate a measure - and there would surely be international riots within the Roman Catholic Church if any one ever did...

Oh dear - sorry - I seem to have wondered off the topic of Ian Pace. Ah, well - at least I admit it; maybe I should actually "confess" - and then attend Mass (a Symphonic High one, naturally)...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline gep

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #166 on: March 27, 2011, 09:46:12 AM
Quote
geb
Off topic, but gep, please. With the p of bicycle. I aint no Egyptian god.... ;D
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #167 on: March 27, 2011, 11:14:59 AM
While I have already dealt with "ongaku_oniko"'s claims regarding the usefulness of discussing the issues presented in this thread's opening post, I should perhaps point out, that this discussion is not limited solely to Sorabji's music and his published criticisms (musical and non-musical), but also deals with the political, economic and philosophical views of those who like Sorabji's music.

So, for starters, I'm an anarchist. ;)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #168 on: March 27, 2011, 11:19:43 AM
why is this chap spamming?



HEHE, i am being accused of spamming by someone who averages over 15 worthless posts per day.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #169 on: March 27, 2011, 01:42:54 PM
Chipped. And on certain shoulders, it would seem. And some with excessively thick skins; others with blight...

Best,

Alistair
Yet of course, such a worthless comment you choose to ignore (In case you still can't comprehend, ignore means to not use a bunch of ad hominem attacks as you've done with me.). It is more than clear that you do take "sides".

Oh well, I must compliment you again; you're the first person that I've seen who is so full of his own BS to be able to use such silly arguments without being embarassed. Or maybe you are embarassed, I don't know. Either way, your comments are more worthless than mine; I've nothing more to say to you.
@Thal:

HEHE, I don't have over 12,000 posts.

If you can't understand my posts, that's fine. But they're only worthless to you, and perhaps the others in your little group. And yes, there is a little group, if you don't know who the members are, tough luck, I'm not going to explain to you elementary logic that any 6 year old would know.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #170 on: March 27, 2011, 02:48:30 PM

HEHE, I don't have over 12,000 posts.

That has taken me over 5 years. At your current rate of spam, you will have many more than this if you last as long.

Any 6 year old can work out averages, but it appears you cannot.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #171 on: March 27, 2011, 04:00:52 PM
Yet of course, such a worthless comment you choose to ignore (In case you still can't comprehend, ignore means to not use a bunch of ad hominem attacks as you've done with me.). It is more than clear that you do take "sides".
It was an appropriate response to the post by the estimable Mr Black, I believe.

Oh well, I must compliment you again
There's no need, really, there isn't...

you're the first person that I've seen who is so full of his own BS to be able to use such silly arguments without being embarassed
I'm not even full of that of others, fortunately.

Or maybe you are embarassed, I don't know.
No. You don't know. As you have amply demonstrated over and over again.

Either way, your comments are more worthless than mine
On which and whose value-judgemental scale (if any), might I ask?

I've nothing more to say to you.
The relief is incalculable!

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #172 on: March 27, 2011, 04:06:16 PM
resonse

beleive

I've never heard these words.

Anyway, will anybody else tell us about their political views?

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #173 on: March 27, 2011, 05:12:59 PM
I've never heard these words.

Anyway, will anybody else tell us about their political views?
Nor have I - any more than I could ever type decently; apologies, thanks for pointing out the errors and corrections duly made.

That said, I am by no means convinced that, even though quite a lot of what Mr Pace has had to say about and around Sorabji concerns matters of politics - party politics, racial politics, gender politics et al - and economics, it would be especially informative to seek to ascertain and then discuss the views on such matters of those who study, edit and perform Sorabji's music; what would or could that usefully tell us or anyone else about them or about Sorabji? By that, I do not mean that I couldn't care less, or that I am aligning myself in any way with o-o in his apparent disinterest in such issues per se, but I have no reason to assume that any commonality in such matters might emerge were one to examine these things in the cases of those seasoned Sorabjians (and why would it?) and, even more importantly, since none of those phenomena manifest themselves in his music in any provable way, the point of such an exercise seems all the more elusive and remote. One might as well assume until proven otherwise that all music written by women is especially attractive to feminists - or indeed even to all women more than it is to men...

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #174 on: March 27, 2011, 06:14:07 PM
That has taken me over 5 years. At your current rate of spam, you will have many more than this if you last as long.

Any 6 year old can work out averages, but it appears you cannot.

Thal

As Mr. Ahinton is not on any "side", I'm not sure why he hasn't torn this piece apart yet, but since he hasn't, let me do the favours.

First of all, I don't know many six year olds who understands the concept of averages, or even fractions, let alone be intelligent enough to work out averages.

But I'm glad you can understand the concept of averages, thal. Let me teach you a more complex idea now; it's called limits.

The problem with your statement, is that you are assuming linearity. But the fact is, the number of posts does not grow at a linear rate. Thus you cannot simply multiply the average by the number of days".

Of course, averages are also very deceiving when the sample is small; Let's say I flip a coin and get heads. Can I say that you can always expect to flip heads when flipping a coin?

Thus, we need another concept, the limit.

As the number of flips tend to infinity, the number of heads and the number of tails will tend to 50% each, assuming that it is a fair coin.

Now, if we use limits in this case, clearly that as time tends towards infinity, the average number of posts tends towards 0.

This mean that if I stay for 5 years, more than likely my number of posts per day will still drop sginificantly, because things happen and people can't always have so much free time. I certainly hope that I will have enough free time everyday for the next 5 years, though.

Of course, I highly doubt that you don't have days or weeks where you exceed 15 posts per day.

Quote
On which and whose value-judgemental scale (if any), might I ask?

Since you're not taking sides, please ask thal by whose value-judgemental scale is he using to say that I am going on about nothing, and that every one of my posts are spam?

Please ask yourself, whose value-judgemental scale are you using when you declare that I am not making a point?

Since you were kind enough to fix so many of my typos, spelling mistakes, and gramatical mistakes, let me do you a favour and teach you a new word: It's called context. If you can undestand this concept, your world wll get a lot bigger.

Of course, as you still don't understand the meaning of context, let me demonstrate what you are doing with my post by doing the same to yours.

I'm not sure whether or not... I am... a... spammer  
Best,

Alistair

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #175 on: March 27, 2011, 06:21:54 PM

This mean that if I stay for 5 years, more than likely my number of posts per day will still drop sginificantly


From what I have seen so far, I hope this is the case.

Thal
Curator/Director
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Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #176 on: March 27, 2011, 06:24:01 PM
From what I have seen so far, I hope this is the case.

Thal
Right back at you, thal :)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #177 on: March 27, 2011, 06:26:56 PM
As long as I have spammers to deal with, I cannot see my rate dropping much ;D.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #178 on: March 27, 2011, 06:31:03 PM
As long as I have spammers to deal with, I cannot see my rate dropping much ;D.

Thal
where are these spammers, thal? I definitely have to give them a piece of my mind

;D ;D

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #179 on: March 27, 2011, 06:38:14 PM
where are these spammers, thal? I definitely have to give them a piece of my mind

;D ;D
That would presume not only the actual presence of spammers but also that you have a mind of which to donate a piece to each.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #180 on: March 27, 2011, 06:39:07 PM
As Mr. Ahinton is not on any "side", I'm not sure why he hasn't torn this piece apart yet, but since he hasn't, let me do the favours.

First of all, I don't know many six year olds who understands the concept of averages, or even fractions, let alone be intelligent enough to work out averages.

But I'm glad you can understand the concept of averages, thal. Let me teach you a more complex idea now; it's called limits.

The problem with your statement, is that you are assuming linearity. But the fact is, the number of posts does not grow at a linear rate. Thus you cannot simply multiply the average by the number of days".

Of course, averages are also very deceiving when the sample is small; Let's say I flip a coin and get heads. Can I say that you can always expect to flip heads when flipping a coin?

Thus, we need another concept, the limit.

As the number of flips tend to infinity, the number of heads and the number of tails will tend to 50% each, assuming that it is a fair coin.

Now, if we use limits in this case, clearly that as time tends towards infinity, the average number of posts tends towards 0.

This mean that if I stay for 5 years, more than likely my number of posts per day will still drop sginificantly, because things happen and people can't always have so much free time. I certainly hope that I will have enough free time everyday for the next 5 years, though.

Of course, I highly doubt that you don't have days or weeks where you exceed 15 posts per day.
Since you're not taking sides, please ask thal by whose value-judgemental scale is he using to say that I am going on about nothing, and that every one of my posts are spam?

Please ask yourself, whose value-judgemental scale are you using when you declare that I am not making a point?

Since you were kind enough to fix so many of my typos, spelling mistakes, and gramatical mistakes, let me do you a favour and teach you a new word: It's called context. If you can undestand this concept, your world wll get a lot bigger.

Of course, as you still don't understand the meaning of context, let me demonstrate what you are doing with my post by doing the same to yours.
Carrots.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #181 on: March 27, 2011, 07:10:04 PM
Should we have a massive group hug and start afresh??

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #182 on: March 27, 2011, 07:16:28 PM
Carrots.

Best,

Alistair
I personally prefer potatoes over carrots, but that's just me.

Best,

Ongaku_Oniko

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #183 on: March 27, 2011, 07:45:11 PM
Sorry "ongaku_oniko", but you are a loser with no life (as your fifteen posts per day clearly show). I usually detest the use of words such as "loser", but here it is entirely appropriate.

Where is John to deal with all this illogical crap?

I suspect "ongaku_oniko" is either Sorabji's spurned lover or Ian Pace.

Nils, please do your job, thank you very much.

Offline stevebob

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #184 on: March 27, 2011, 09:25:44 PM
Nils, please do your job, thank you very much.

Just for clarification (as this is the second time you've made this request in this thread), what do you consider Nils's "job" to be in this situation?  What exactly are you asking him to do?
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #185 on: March 27, 2011, 09:31:19 PM
I suspect "ongaku_oniko" is either Sorabji's spurned lover or Ian Pace
I beg your pardon? What on earth is that supposed to mean - taken literally or any other way? Yes, we could all do with some unwarranted heat taken out of this thread, but I'm far from convinced that this is any viable way in which to do so..

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #186 on: March 27, 2011, 10:25:06 PM
No need to worry, dear ahinton.

I must certainly be a loser with no life, and a spammer who blabs on about nothing, since the great djealnla, who is easily proven to be extremely intelligent with an amazing memory said so.  I sincerely apologize for intruding in, and disrupting this very important discussion that you intellectuals are having. I will now go crawl back to the student's corner, improvisations and to a lesser extent, the other subforums relating to piano playing, where it seems that my spamminess and loserness is slightly more accepted.

If I must, I'll visit some of the other threads here in the Non piano board, where Mr. Thal, Mr. Ahinton and Ms. Djealnla are not having such a serious and important on-topic discussion. And if I really can't resist visiting this thread, I know that I'm better off offering the name of a vegetable rather than my illogical opinions that are about nothing.

And don't worry Ms. Djealnla, I understand that I must not prefer potatoes over carrots. Definitely not.

And with that, please go back to discussing this intelligent and important topic, Ian Pace on Sorabji. Most certainly, now that the big spammer will leave this thread, it will surely go back to an intelligent on-topic discussion with intellectuals.

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #187 on: March 28, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
I beg your pardon? What on earth is that supposed to mean - taken literally or any other way? Yes, we could all do with some unwarranted heat taken out of this thread, but I'm far from convinced that this is any viable way in which to do so..

Best,

Alistair

I don't understand why anybody would appear to have such an interest in taking this thread in an entirely unrelated direction and in harassing you, unless he had an unusual motivation for so doing. Perhaps I don't have enough experience with trolls/spammers, but most of them don't last remotely as long as this guy did.

Whatever the likely effectiveness of my post was, it seems to have worked (as the comment above mine (by "ongaku_oniko") shows).

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #188 on: March 28, 2011, 04:43:50 AM
Just for clarification (as this is the second time you've made this request in this thread), what do you consider Nils's "job" to be in this situation?  What exactly are you asking him to do?

The usual approach at this stage would be to issue a warning to him, which I think is adequate, considering how he has behaved in this thread. If it has been done, then I gladly retract my request and instead must express my amazement and the lack of change in "ongaku_oniko"'s behavior.

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #189 on: March 28, 2011, 04:57:58 AM
I must certainly be a loser with no life, and a spammer who blabs on about nothing, since the great djealnla, who is easily proven to be extremely intelligent with an amazing memory said so.

Correct on all counts.

I sincerely apologize for intruding in, and disrupting this very important discussion that you intellectuals are having.

Apology accepted.

I will now go crawl back to the student's corner, improvisations and to a lesser extent, the other subforums relating to piano playing, where it seems that my spamminess and loserness is slightly more accepted.

I'm sorry to break it for you, but spam isn't welcome anywhere on this site.

If I must, I'll visit some of the other threads here in the Non piano board, where Mr. Thal, Mr. Ahinton and Ms. Djealnla are not having such a serious and important on-topic discussion.

If you'll have some thoughtful and on-topic contribution, then nobody will complain about that (certainly not me).

And don't worry Ms. Djealnla, I understand that I must not prefer potatoes over carrots. Definitely not.

Whatever this may mean, I can only say I like both potatoes and carrots.

[T]he big spammer will leave this thread

Thank God.

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #190 on: April 02, 2011, 05:39:48 AM
There are two interesting issues to be raised here:

1. What exactly where the implications of Sorabji's racial attitudes? If he didn't seek to advocate the extermination of any race, then what was the point of emphasizing one's racial origins? Did he seek to "celebrate differences", much like it could be said that some of today's fashion magazines may emphasize either "femininity" or "manhood"?
2. I'm not convinced that Pace referred to Sorabji as an "elitist composer"; I think he actually meant that Sorabji had elitist attitudes towards music education ("give not that which is holy unto the dogs" is a well known quote in this respect). While that may be true, Pace asserted that Sorabji's supporters are guilty of embracing an exclusivist attitude towards the promotion of the arts, which seems to be in contradiction to the lengths to which some people have gone to promote Sorabji's work, as well as the contributions of Jonathan Powell, Charles Hopkins or Marc-André Roberge to contemporary musical scholarship. Is that not correct?

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #191 on: April 02, 2011, 09:16:36 PM
There are two interesting issues to be raised here:

1. What exactly where the implications of Sorabji's racial attitudes? If he didn't seek to advocate the extermination of any race, then what was the point of emphasizing one's racial origins? Did he seek to "celebrate differences", much like it could be said that some of today's fashion magazines may emphasize either "femininity" or "manhood"?
The answer is that he did not seek to exterminate any race and that, whilst he would have had less than no interest in the fashion magazines of today or of yesteryear, he advocated due recognition of such differences even if he might have stopped short of actually celebrating them.

2. I'm not convinced that Pace referred to Sorabji as an "elitist composer"; I think he actually meant that Sorabji had elitist attitudes towards music education ("give not that which is holy unto the dogs" is a well known quote in this respect). While that may be true, Pace asserted that Sorabji's supporters are guilty of embracing an exclusivist attitude towards the promotion of the arts, which seems to be in contradiction to the lengths to which some people have gone to promote Sorabji's work, as well as the contributions of Jonathan Powell, Charles Hopkins or Marc-André Roberge to contemporary musical scholarship. Is that not correct?
Mr Pace's assertions as to the persuasions of those who care about Sorabji's work, be they scholars, listeners, performers, editors or whatever else, are founded on little if any knowledge of the subject, as your reference to that contradiction makes clear; they should be regarded accordingly.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #192 on: April 03, 2011, 04:43:22 AM
Mr Pace's assertions as to the persuasions of those who care about Sorabji's work, be they scholars, listeners, performers, editors or whatever else, are founded on little if any knowledge of the subject, as your reference to that contradiction makes clear; they should be regarded accordingly.

Well, garbage still has to be exposed for what it is.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #193 on: April 03, 2011, 03:54:48 PM
Well, garbage still has to be exposed for what it is.
I guess - although arguably it might, I think, be somewhat less than wise to elevate it above its due station by over-exposure...

Best,

Alistair
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline john11inc

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #194 on: April 06, 2011, 10:09:18 PM
lol
If this work is so threatening, it is not because it's simply strange, but competent, rigorously argued and carrying conviction.

-Jacques Derrida


https://www.youtube.com/user/john11inch

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #195 on: April 07, 2011, 02:24:52 PM
lol

Well, since I have no idea at which post(s) this is directed, I'll just hope you feel like explaining your use of the acronym quoted above.

Offline ahinton

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #196 on: April 07, 2011, 03:47:57 PM
Well, since I have no idea at which post(s) this is directed, I'll just hope you feel like explaining your use of the acronym quoted above.
Though this is admittedly unspecified (and I cannot and do not presume to speak for john11inch), I imagine that a reasonable guess might be that it is intended to refer to the post immediately above it, i.e. #193.

Best,

Alistair
Alistair Hinton
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The Sorabji Archive

Offline djealnla

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #197 on: April 07, 2011, 05:32:17 PM
Though this is admittedly unspecified (and I cannot and do not presume to speak for john11inch), I imagine that a reasonable guess might be that it is intended to refer to the post immediately above it, i.e. #193.

Best,

Alistair

I think he was just laughing at our discussion with "ongaku_oniko", but that's just as (un)likely as the scenario you described.

BTW, this has officially become the Sorabji topic with most posts on this site. 8)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #198 on: April 07, 2011, 07:28:33 PM
The answer is that he did not seek to exterminate any race

I wonder if given the chance Sorabji would have exterminated a few music critics.

In chapter III of Mi Contra Fa under the heading of "Music and Muddleheadedness", he seems to have taken a dislike to a certain Sir Walford Davies. Pretty strong stuff and amusing at the same time.

Thal
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Offline john11inc

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Re: Ian Pace on Sorabji
Reply #199 on: April 08, 2011, 12:06:57 AM
Well, since I have no idea at which post(s) this is directed, I'll just hope you feel like explaining your use of the acronym quoted above.

It was directed at the hyper-verbose, superficially intelligent responses of Ongaku that are, in fact, complete, incoherent drivel.

But more than that, it was the amount of effort put into responses to such.


Well, since I have no idea at which post(s) this is directed, I'll just hope you feel like explaining your use of the acronym quoted above.

Directed at "lol" is a pretty good example of the enormous amount of time being spent in this thread to bolster pointless and/or stupid posts with unnecessary effort.
If this work is so threatening, it is not because it's simply strange, but competent, rigorously argued and carrying conviction.

-Jacques Derrida


https://www.youtube.com/user/john11inch
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