Ian Pace on Sorabji

[djealnla]

Here are some of the things Ian Pace has stated about K. S. Sorabji, his music and his fans in the past (not quoted verbatim):

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."

Discuss. 

[ahinton]

Here are some of the things Ian Pace has stated about K. S. Sorabji, his music and his fans in the past (not quoted verbatim):

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."

Discuss. 

"Discuss"? Why? Or at least might it not be more appropriate and enlightening to begin by discussing what might have motivated these observations before progressing(?!) to discussions of the observations themselves?

Anyway, since you ask, let's start the ball rolling by examining each of them as briefly as they might appear to deserve, albeit in the form of questions.

How is it possible to express "extremely misogynistic sentiments" in music? And, if so, is it possible for the listener to detect that this is what the composer is doing?

What does music "obsessed with itself" actually mean?

Which particular "compositional techniques" are being referred to here and on what grounds would their exploration by Sorabji or (by implication) anyone else "require no talent"?

Where and what is the evidence that Sorabji "sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis"? and how, in any case, might such sympathies (even if they existed) demonstrably manifest themselves in Sorabji's music written at the time that the Nazis came to power and/or at any time since during his lengthy creative career?

What precisely is meant by the claim that "there's always a right wing clique around" Sorabji? Of whom did and/or does such a clique consist and, once again, how might this (even if true) impact specifically upon the nature and content of Sorabji's music or the way in which his listeners perceive it? Is Sorabji's music only for "right-wing" listeners? If so, where is the proof that performances of it are attended and recordings of it purchased mainly or solely by such people? And what of those who put on concerts of his work or record it? - are these, too, necessarily (and demonstrably) people and organisations of right-wing persuasions? And are the scholars who write about it likewise? and, if so, woudn't Prof. Paul Rapoport be wise to change his name? And what of the performers (of whom it may be noted that Mr Pace is not one)? Is Fredrik Ullén a neo-Nazi? Is Kevin Bowyer one? Or Jonathan Powell? Or Donna Amato? Or sopranos Sarah Leonard or Loré Lixenberg (who might also be wise to change her name if so)? Could such a label have been pinned on John Ogdon (some of whose own music Mr Pace has performed)? And, if so, would it not have been even wiser still for the late Yonty Solomon to have changed his name? As Sorabji's literary executor and the founder and curator of The Sorabji Archive, am I not perhaps the biggest neo-Nazi of the lot?

Last question (I promise!) - for now, at least? Do you now wish that you hadn't started this?(!)...

Best,

Alistair

[john11inc]

I've spoken to Pace quite a number of times about Sorabji; he has plenty to say (more than I would bother trying to recite for you here), so if you have a question or want amplification on one of those statements (or others) just let me know.

[djealnla]

"Discuss"? Why? Or at least might it not be more appropriate and enlightening to begin by discussing what might have motivated these observations before progressing(?!) to discussions of the observations themselves?

Anyway, since you ask, let's start the ball rolling by examining each of them as briefly as they might appear to deserve, albeit in the form of questions.

How is it possible to express "extremely misogynistic sentiments" in music? And, if so, is it possible for the listener to detect that this is what the composer is doing?

What does music "obsessed with itself" actually mean?

Which particular "compositional techniques" are being referred to here and on what grounds would their exploration by Sorabji or (by implication) anyone else "require no talent"?

Where and what is the evidence that Sorabji "sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis"? and how, in any case, might such sympathies (even if they existed) demonstrably manifest themselves in Sorabji's music written at the time that the Nazis came to power and/or at any time since during his lengthy creative career?

What precisely is meant by the claim that "there's always a right wing clique around" Sorabji? Of whom did and/or does such a clique consist and, once again, how might this (even if true) impact specifically upon the nature and content of Sorabji's music or the way in which his listeners perceive it? Is Sorabji's music only for "right-wing" listeners? If so, where is the proof that performances of it are attended and recordings of it purchased mainly or solely by such people? And what of those who put on concerts of his work or record it? - are these, too, necessarily (and demonstrably) people and organisations of right-wing persuasions? And are the scholars who write about it likewise? and, if so, woudn't Prof. Paul Rapoport be wise to change his name? And what of the performers (of whom it may be noted that Mr Pace is not one)? Is Fredrik Ullén a neo-Nazi? Is Kevin Bowyer one? Or Jonathan Powell? Or Donna Amato? Or sopranos Sarah Leonard or Loré Lixenberg (who might also be wise to change her name if so)? Could such a label have been pinned on John Ogdon (some of whose own music Mr Pace has performed)? And, if so, would it not have been even wiser still for the late Yonty Solomon to have changed his name? As Sorabji's literary executor and the founder and curator of The Sorabji Archive, am I not perhaps the biggest neo-Nazi of the lot?

Last question (I promise!) - for now, at least? Do you now wish that you hadn't started this?(!)...

Obviously I agree with your remarks and objections here. I always found Pace's statements about a "right wing clique" laughable (mainly because of Yonty Solomon). I have also met both Asian and black people who enjoy Sorabji's music.

[djealnla]

I've spoken to Pace quite a number of times about Sorabji; he has plenty to say (more than I would bother trying to recite for you here), so if you have a question or want amplification on one of those statements (or others) just let me know.

Would you mind elaborating on them all? If you would, here they are arranged in order of interestingness, so answer either only the first, or only the first two, etc.:

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."

[ahinton]

I've spoken to Pace quite a number of times about Sorabji; he has plenty to say (more than I would bother trying to recite for you here),

Although I have never actually spoken to Mr Pace or met him, I have had a number of exchanges of correspondence with him in which he made statements similar to some of those put forward here. Subject to the nature and content of any further responses here, however, I think that I've said all that I have to say on the subject for the time being.

Best,

Alistair

[john11inc]

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."

Honestly, I think your questions are backwards, if they're supposed to be in order of how interesting the answer might be D:

1- He feels that Sorabji was a one-trick pony.
2- He feels the incredible density and muscle of the majority of Sorabji's work innately convey masculinity.
3- I'm not familiar with that quote, so I don't know what context it might be in; I'm sure wherever you plucked it out of explains it.
4- Right wing as in continental thinking and conservative sense of aesthetics.
5- I'm sure he wouldn't simply say something like this, but I only know about Sorabji's misogynistic writings.


Just really brief answers because I'm going to ask him to explain them more thoroughly himself when I get a chance tomorrow.

[ahinton]

Honestly, I think your questions are backwards, if they're supposed to be in order of how interesting the answer might be D:

OK, but the level of interest in them is in the mind of the questioner, methinks! But let's look at your immediate answers.

1- He feels that Sorabji was a one-trick pony.

Perhaps he does, but on what grounds? Which of Sorabji's 105 or so works does he know? How familiar is he even with all the Sorabji works currently available on CD? Which of the scores has he studied? (he's never ordered any from us, for starters).

2- He feels the incredible density and muscle of the majority of Sorabji's work innately convey masculinity.

If so, what does that tell us that might not equally well apply to many other composers' works? And, more importantly, what neuroscientific evidence is there for such a notion in the first place? - i.e. to whom and how might such musical characteristics "convey masculinity" at all, let alone in a readily recognisable and identifiable manner that registers with the majority of its listeners? We need some clarification here - and by that I do not mean McClaryfication...

3- I'm not familiar with that quote, so I don't know what context it might be in; I'm sure wherever you plucked it out of explains it.

I'm not either, so I rest my case until and unless its context is revealed.

4- Right wing as in continental thinking and conservative sense of aesthetics.

Even so, has IP read sufficient evidence to convince others besides himself that this was the sum total of KSS's stance on such issues and, in any case, what's this got to do with his music?

5- I'm sure he wouldn't simply say something like this, but I only know about Sorabji's misogynistic writings.

...which do not of themselves provide the full picture of KSS's attitude towards women, as I know and IP does not know from personal experience; I knew KSS frokm 1972 - i.e. for the final 16½ years of his life, whereas IP never met or corresponded with him.

Just really brief answers because I'm going to ask him to explain them more thoroughly himself when I get a chance tomorrow.

I wish you luck!

Best,

Alistair

[john11inc]

Perhaps he does, but on what grounds? Which of Sorabji's 105 or so works does he know? How familiar is he even with all the Sorabji works currently available on CD? Which of the scores has he studied? (he's never ordered any from us, for starters).

I know that he is familiar with a decent amount of Sorabji's output, both from a listening standpoint and a familiarity with scores, some of the pieces he's knowledgeable of being fairly esoteric.  I don't have a handy catalog of which 105 (or so) works he knows x, y, z about to a, b, c degrees of proficiency, nor am I going to ask.  But he is quite knowledgeable on the subject of Sorabji's work, yes.

If so, what does that tell us that might not equally well apply to many other composers' works? And, more importantly, what neuroscientific evidence is there for such a notion in the first place? - i.e. to whom and how might such musical characteristics "convey masculinity" at all, let alone in a readily recognisable and identifiable manner that registers with the majority of its listeners? We need some clarification here - and by that I do not mean McClaryfication...

It could or couldn't tell us all sorts of things (or assert to tell us such things) depending on further elaboration and specification, so we'll just have to wait to see what he says.  I tend to doubt Ian Pace has done any neuroscientific research regarding aural semiotics, but then again, that would assume that there actually is something that Ian Pace hasn't written a forty page paper on, so it's a tough call.

I'm not either, so I rest my case until and unless its context is revealed.

Not being aware of what this assumedly-aforementioned "case" is, I can only hope that it is of reticence to comment on that which we clearly require more information to be able to speak of in any way in which we know to be relevant.

Even so, has IP read sufficient evidence to convince others besides himself that this was the sum total of KSS's stance ion such issues and, in any case, what's this got to do with his music?

I'm not sure it has anything to do with the acousmatic listening experience of his music, nor am I sure that Ian meant it to be construed in such a way.  I am not an expert on Sorabji and disagree with most of what he wrote (that which I have read, which I'm sure is a small percentage of his output) so I do not consider myself to be in a position to speak on trends in philosophies of Sorabji's fans, or listeners, or those officially associated with his music (which one(s) not being clear, here).  However, it is true that his musical language and aesthetic, while certainly iconoclastic and very personal, was almost completely rooted in music of the past, where its sensibilities remained.  Of course one could say all music is, but I'm sure you know what I mean if I use that phrase in comparison between him and, say, Stockhausen or Cage.  And I can say with impunity that Ian is an almost militant proponent of aesthetic innovation, so I think he views Sorabji as someone who clung to old forms when it is his opinion that composers should have been working to expand the language of music.

...which do not of themselves provide the full piture of KSS's attitude towards women, as I know and IP does not know from personal experience; I knew KSS frokm 1972 - i.e. for the final 16½ years of his life, whereas IP never met or corresponded with him.

Well, we're talking about racism if we're talking about Pace's comment, not misogyny.  I brought up the misogyny.  Based upon empirical evidence available to me, I can take the stance that Sorabji was a misogynist in a more logical manner than I can take the counter, both modally and epistemologically, which means that the same will hold true for anyone who is also in my situation (not having personally known Sorabji, but being familiar with some of his writings).  If you can present evidence to the contrary, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only person interested.


Anyway, I'm not going to ask him all of your follow-up questions, as that would be a bit much, but being familiar with his writing style, I'm sure he'll address a number of them on his own accord, as he is exceptionally wordy (even by my or your standards).

[djealnla]

1- He feels that Sorabji was a one-trick pony.

In what respect (that is, what was his "specialty")?

2- He feels the incredible density and muscle of the majority of Sorabji's work innately convey masculinity.

Muscle? Didn't Sorabji dislike people who banged on the piano? After all, he admired its "singing qualities". And why does he perform Finnissy, then?

Also, masculinity and misogyny are not synonyms (although some radical feminists have succeeded in spreading this notion).

3- I'm not familiar with that quote, so I don't know what context it might be in; I'm sure wherever you plucked it out of explains it.

I've been googling it but with no luck, so Pace will probably have to elaborate on it. He said it in the context of the OC.

4- Right wing as in continental thinking and conservative sense of aesthetics.

Fredrik Ullén conservative? Kevin Bowyer conservative? Jonathan Powell conservative? Finnissy conservative? Reinier van Houdt conservative? Something strikes me as odd here, unless your definition of conservative is "composes music with specific pitches".

5- I'm sure he wouldn't simply say something like this, but I only know about Sorabji's misogynistic writings.

He did say it, but as I remarked above, Google has been useless so far.

Just really brief answers because I'm going to ask him to explain them more thoroughly himself when I get a chance tomorrow.

I'm interested in hearing the results of that!

[ahinton]

I know that he is familiar with a decent amount of Sorabji's output, both from a listening standpoint and a familiarity with scores, some of the pieces he's knowledgeable of being fairly esoteric.  I don't have a handy catalog of which 105 (or so) works he knows x, y, z about to a, b, c degrees of proficiency, nor am I going to ask.  But he is quite knowledgeable on the subject of Sorabji's work, yes.

There's probably no need to ask in any case - or at least not in any great detail; that said, as far as I am aware, Mr Pace has never performed any of Sorabji's works in public and has only very rarely in correspondence with me referred to individual Sorabji pieces or performers by name.

It could or couldn't tell us all sorts of things (or assert to tell us such things) depending on further elaboration and specification, so we'll just have to wait to see what he says.  I tend to doubt Ian Pace has done any neuroscientific research regarding aural semiotics, but then again, that would assume that there actually is something that Ian Pace hasn't written a forty page paper on, so it's a tough call.

I, too, am pretty sure that he has undertaken no such research (nor am I aware that he would be qualified to do so in the first place) and none of his 40+-page papers indicates that this has ever been an area of his investigations, but then no one else has yet come up with conclusive proof of anything much in this area either, so my observation here is not intended to be read as necessarily criticising Mr Pace for having done insufficient research here. My point was also (as I mentioned) that his remark here could as easily be applied to the music of a considerable number of other composers and, accordingly, stands to tell us very little that is specifically pertinent to Sorabji.

Not being aware of what this assumedly-aforementioned "case" is, I can only hope that it is of reticence to comment on that which we clearly require more information to be able to speak of in any way in which we know to be relevant.

In British English(!), "I rest my case" means just as you have assumed it to mean here; I am indeed reticent in terms of commenting at this stage on information that we have yet to see from Mr Pace himself and would therefore not seek to attempt to do so. In other words, let's wait and see first!

I'm not sure it has anything to do with the acousmatic listening experience of his music, nor am I sure that Ian meant it to be construed in such a way.

Fair enough from your own point of view but, again, your experience is not by definition Mr Pace's, so we will have to wait and see if he comes up with further statements that seek to clarify whether or to what extent the initial one demonstrates beyond doubt that it does or does not have "anything do with the acousmatic listening experience of (Sorabji's) music".

I am not an expert on Sorabji and disagree with most of what he wrote (that which I have read, which I'm sure is a small percentage of his output)

I wouldn't be so sure about the latter part of this if I were you; I am not aware that Mr Pace has written extensively about Sorabji and his music, however forthright and trenchant what he has written about these subjects may be.

so I do not consider myself to be in a position to speak on trends in philosophies of Sorabji's fans, or listeners, or those officially associated with his music (which one(s) not being clear, here).

If such as he has written about Sorabji is anything by which to go, Mr Pace, on the other hand, might be seen as appearing to consider himself to be in such a position although, not having met or corresponded with the composer, played any of his music in public or being especially well acquainted (as far as I am aware) with most of those who have performed it in public and recorded it, the grounds upon which such an assertion of authority might be made here (if indeed that's what it purports to be) remain unclear.

However, it is true that his musical language and aesthetic, while certainly iconoclastic and very personal, was almost completely rooted in music of the past, where its sensibilities remained.  Of course one could say all music is, but I'm sure you know what I mean if I use that phrase in comparison between him and, say, Stockhausen or Cage.

Yes, of course I do - and you make a very valid point here (but see below)...

And I can say with impunity that Ian is an almost militant proponent of aesthetic innovation, so I think he views Sorabji as someone who clung to old forms when it is his opinion that composers should have been working to expand the language of music.

In which case it might be a wonder that J S Bach has not come under Mr Pace's hammer. In my view, there is ample room for the co-existence of those who overturn and those who consolidate and develop what exists (or even both, for that matter) - a fact which, it might be argued, the trajectory of Boulez's career illustrates admirably (if still to a somewhat limited degree). That said, Sorabji did not just "cling to old forms"; he expanded some of them (variation sets and fugues in particular) beyond any precedent and developed one of them in ways which are almost unparalleled other than in Sibelius - I refer here to the symphonic "first movement form" that Sorabji developed in many of his mature multi-movement symphonic works where a myriad of themes and motifs are presented in a substantial "exposition" leavened with little or no episodic material, whereafter the movement grows organically and the sense and relevance of each of those thematic and motivic characters only gradually becomes apparent as the movement progresses. Then there's the "tropcial nocturne" genre which, whilst having its roots in late Chopin, Skryabin and Szymanowski, is taken to unprecedented lengths in piano works such as Le Jardin Parfumé, Djami, Gulistan, The Garden of Iran (from Symphonic Variations) and others, none of which are obviously "rooted in old forms".

Well, we're talking about racism if we're talking about Pace's comment, not misogyny.  I brought up the misogyny.  Based upon empirical evidence available to me, I can take the stance that Sorabji was a misogynist in a more logical manner than I can take the counter, both modally and epistemologically, which means that the same will hold true for anyone who is also in my situation (not having personally known Sorabji, but being familiar with some of his writings).  If you can present evidence to the contrary, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only person interested.

Actually, it was djealnla who first raised the misogyny issue and I fear that I may subsequently have become somewhat confused as to which question and which answer were which (following your suggested re-prioritising of the former), so I apologise if I have answered "what's the time?" with "colder than usual for the time of year"! Anyway - overt and clear expressions of "racism" - i.e. racial prejudice - do not usually sit especially well with (or indeed emanate from) those who happen to be of mixed race themselves as Sorabji was; being proud of one's racial origin/s (rather than of what might happen to be emblazoned on one's passport) does not in any case have to be synonymous with a sense of racist aggression and superiority. In such issues, Sorabji's principal stance was one where the distinction between nationality (as recorded on passports and such like offical documents) and racial origin/s (by birth) ought not to be ignored; that does not, of itself, mark him out as what we understand today to be a "racist".

Anyway, I'm not going to ask him all of your follow-up questions, as that would be a bit much,

Nor did I either assume that you would do so or expect that you would do so.

but being familiar with his writing style, I'm sure he'll address a number of them on his own accord, as he is exceptionally wordy (even by my or your standards).

That will, of course, be up to him and, as I have already stated, we will need to wait and see what (if anything) he says and then address it rationally as far as possible in order to assess its reasoning, value and correctness.

In the meantime, let's just

(a) remember that IP
1. never met Sorabji
2. never corresponded with Sorabji
3. has never performed any Sorabji in public or recorded any of Sorabji's music
4. appears not to be intimately acquainted with anyone who has done any of the above

and

(b) give some consideration to whether and/or to what extent the views apparently expressed in those statements accord to any that we know to have been expressed by any of the prominent Sorabji scholars (Rapoport, Roberge, etc.), editors (Abercrombie, Rice, Abrahams [oops - awkward name there, once again!], etc.), performers (Powell, Ullén, Amato, van Houdt, Solomon, Hamelin, Bowyer) or surviving personal acquaintances of the composer

in order best to assess and develop a duly informed and proportional view of IP's assertions.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Muscle? Didn't Sorabji dislike people who banged on the piano? After all, he admired its "singing qualities".

Indeed so, in both cases!

Also, masculinity and misogyny are not synonyms (although some radical feminists have succeeded in spreading this notion).

True - again, in both cases; that said, some of the more bizarre and scientifically unfounded assertions of certain practitioners of the quaintly-named "femmunistfeminist musicology" seem to me to be a good deal more off the wall than the spreading of such a notion, actually; I realise, of course, that this is not the female composers' thread but, as I have never tired of pointing out to some people, it's impossible to tell just by listening whether a piece of music has been composed by a man or a woman or by a heterosexual, homosexual or celibate composer unless one is provided with these items of data beforehand (for what they may or may not be worth in terms - and in the context - of anyone's subsequent appreciative responses to the music); i.e the music itself reveals - and at the present stages of neuroscientific research remains capable of revealing - no such factoids and there is in any case no obvious reason why it should do so or indeed why it might be expected to do so.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Here are some of the things Ian Pace has stated about K. S. Sorabji, his music and his fans in the past (not quoted verbatim):

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."

Discuss. 

Ow gods, this pops up every now and again….
Yes, I have seen Mr. Pace’s remarks on Sorabji various times at various places, and John, if you manage to get Mr. Pace to provide written evidence for his claims, I for one would be MOST interested to read them, for it would mean he, for the very first time ever anywhere, would provide at least some reasons for his claims. The more usual, if not single, reply to requests to give reasons and evidence for his claims is something on the line of “I will do that when time permits”, followed by silence. Ah well, so of my responses to Mr. Pace’s claims then…

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."
Ah, that probably explains why I hate all humanity du moment I hear a note of Sorabji. Straywinsky said once “music cannot express anything”. A piece like “Le Jardin Parfumé” sounds indeed aggressive to the extreme. I think Sorabji once said something like “I hate humanity, I love humans”. Anyone taking a careful look at what humanity usually is up to van deny the logic of that thought…

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."
As opposed to, say, Finnissey…?

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."
I await your duplication then. Personal experience tells me that when a composer can write a nine-hour long piece that claims my attention from the beginning to the very last has at least a slight talent.

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."
Quotes please!

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."
Sure, a whole secret organisation, with “Heil Sorabji” greetings and all. He wrote music for the KuKluxKlan’s cross-burning ceremonies, right? Well, at least I know what I am now. Pretty strong that, that Mr. Pace knows me while not knowing me…

Now, if Mr. Pace would he he cannot stand the music of Sorabji, that would be totally fine by me. But this, dare I say it, fascists approach (i.e. damning something on non-relevant grounds) turns Mr. Pace exactly into that he accuses Sorabji of.

Requiescat, Pace; you’re fine pianist, stick to that please!

All best,
gep

[ahinton]

As a minor P.S., Mr Pace could always join this forum and express his thoughts directly if so he might choose; I won't hold my breath, however, any more than I'd especially wish so to do...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Requiescat, Pace

Nice one, but should it not read "Requiescat i(a)n Pace"? (although quite what kind of "cat" that would en-tail remains - perhaps mercifully - unclear)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Oh what excitement. You could turn this thread into a soap opera.

Will Ian Pace personally respond to these questions?
Will Alistair notice a spelling mistake in his answer?
Will John11ft provide 3 pages of maths to prove he is wrong?
Will gep remove all the Sorabji photos from his bedroom ceiling?
Will djealna manage to do the dishes in the time it takes to play Djami?
Will Sorabji's ghost take revenge on his critics?

Tune in tomorrow folks for the next thrilling episode of "The Sorabji Chronicles"

Thal

[ahinton]

Oh what excitement. You could turn this thread into a soap opera.

Will Ian Pace personally respond to these questions?
Will Alistair notice a spelling mistake in his answer?
Will John11ft provide 3 pages of maths to prove he is wrong?
Will gep remove all the Sorabji photos from his bedroom ceiling?
Will djealna manage to do the dishes in the time it takes to play Djami?
Will Sorabji's ghost take revenge on his critics?

Tune in tomorrow folks for the next thrilling episode of "The Sorabji Chronicles"

All very amusing, I'm sure, but the answers to each of your intentionally spurious questions are as follows:

No.
N/A (since the answer to the first question is "no")
To prove that who is wrong? Ian Pace? Me? John himself? The man in the moon?
Why do you assume that he has any there?
The forum ID is djealnla, not djealna (since you mention spelling mistakes above)
Let's wait and see if there are any actual such "critics" here first before speculating on whether or not any "ghost" might take revenge upon anyone...

If "The Sorabji Chronicles" - if such there were to be - were necessarily to be dependent upon the anticipated (or otherwise) lucubrations of Mr Pace, the prospect of their being "thrilling" must surely be open to question; that of their being turned into a "soap opera" would be so unwelcome that I'd - er - be inclined to "wash my hands" of it...

Just a thought.

Best,

The non-misogynist non-Nazi Alistair whose own music is neither self-obsessed nor obviously technically deficient (he hopes!) nor the work of a one-trick pony (since he's never even ridden such a creature)...

P.S...

To anyone who has ever sought to make unwarranted accusations of a composer for being an alleged "one-trick pony", let us remember Chopin's (albeit regrettable) remark prompted by some operatic transcriptions by his otherwise friend Liszt, namely that, in such works, Liszt was seeking to "attain Parnassus on another man's Pegasus".

One person's response to me to the notion that anyone who believed Sorabji to be a "one-trick pony" as a composer was that the accuser himself must be a "non-runner" - which thought prompted the thought that anyone who would shout the kinds of accusation listed at the beginning of this thread might (mercifully) himself soon be a little ho(a)rse...

[thalbergmad]

Very interesting, but perhaps you could use your knowledge to answer my question in the Surinach PC thread.

Thal

[ahinton]

Very interesting, but perhaps you could use your knowledge to answer my question in the Surinach PC thread.

Why "but"?

Your question there has already been answered by two other members.

That question is in another thread because it belongs there (as you must surely realise, having put it there), so let's stick to the subject of this one in this one, shall we?

Having said that - and while we await (albeit without holding our breath) for the wisdom of Mr Pace to be bestowed upon us, almost certainly via the medium of john11inch rather than directly, it might be instructive and revealing to focus on the extent to which, if at all, any of his observations about Sorabji have also been made by others or whether they are peculiar to Mr Pace and, if the latter, why they may be so.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Your question there has already been answered by two other members.

It had not been at the time I asked you.

As you say, it has now been answered (by two clever and helpful members) and probably could have been answered by you, if you were not blowing hot air in this thread.

Thal

[ahinton]

It had not been at the time I asked you.

But then I wasn't at the computer when you did so!

blowing hot air in this thread.

What I have provided in this thread is answers as far as I am able to provide them at this stage, which is more than you have done (not that, if you either have no opinions on the subject matter at hand or if you do but prefer not to express them, is other than fair enough as far as it goes); if that, in your opinion, constitutes the blowing of hot air, however, then you might care to ask yourself either whether you are correct in so surmising or whether the very subject matter consists of it and therefore any considered responses thereto would inevitably risk doing the same.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

This man is definately related to Lawrence Logic.

Thal

[littletune]

Oh what excitement. You could turn this thread into a soap opera.

Will Ian Pace personally respond to these questions?
Will Alistair notice a spelling mistake in his answer?
Will John11ft provide 3 pages of maths to prove he is wrong?
Will gep remove all the Sorabji photos from his bedroom ceiling?
Will djealna manage to do the dishes in the time it takes to play Djami?
Will Sorabji's ghost take revenge on his critics?

Tune in tomorrow folks for the next thrilling episode of "The Sorabji Chronicles"

Thal

    

[ahinton]

You could turn this thread into a soap opera.

Actually, I couldn't - or rather wouldn't - turn this thread (or indeed anything else, for that matter) into any kind of opera. Forgot to mention that earlier.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Actually, I couldn't

You already have.

I am glued to my chair in anticipation.

Thal

[john11inc]

Ian Pace:

Some of these comments look like they are something of a simplification of what I would have said (or maybe came out rather simplistically when typed in a hurry), but basically:

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."
I think the sentiment was to do with how Sorabji's abilities in terms of harmonic and contrapuntal writing seem deeply limited, in terms of his ability to distinguish between the quality of results - running through the motions with little or no refinement with respect to the result. Hence those interminable fugues, for example. It's a few years since I looked at quite a bit of his music in detail, though - definitely remember finding the compositional ability deeply limited.

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."
There's one of his essays in which Sorabji's total and utter contempt and dismissal for female musicians, and anything social constructed as 'feminine' in music. I would argue that his music has a lot to do with eliminating all such elements.

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."
Definitely. Totally wrapped up in its own 'inner world'.

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."
Quite a number of the Sorabji devotees are also involved with right-wing economic ideas and the like, and some seem alarmingly sympathetic towards Sorabji's own ultra-elitist, ultra-right-wing views.

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."
I think what I said was that Sorabji's absolutist theories on race, in which ethnicity is everything (and environment and culture count for little) - to the extent that he can make extravagant claims for ethnic origins for which one has to go back many centuries to find any individual in the genealogy actually resident in the geographical area with which he associates this ethnic group - bear a disturbing resemblance to the sort of racial fundamentalism associated with the Nazis. Claiming that a 700-year old Persian ancestry is all-determining, whether the conclusions are positive or negative (and all positive claims made for such things inevitably imply negative sentiments towards other ethnic groups) is not so different from a policy of exclusion based on the fact that someone may have a distant Jewish ancestor, say.


So, here are my followup questions, before you guys freak out.  Numbering refers to the question I will ask regarding each topic:


1- So would you say his composition displays an inability, or a lack of interest in displaying an ability whose existence we're unsure of?  For instance, are you saying you see that which indicates poor ability, or simply believe he pigeonholed himself somewhat?

2- Are you saying that there is a causal link between his views on female pianists and the type of music he writes vis-a-vis so-as to, in his mind, be inaccessible to a woman performer, for instance?

3- Do you mean that it is more of a voyeuristic listening experience as opposed to an engrossing or involving one?  Or do you simply mean that it's iconoclastic, which isn't inherently an insult?

I'm not going to ask about #4 because to get to the bottom of this would take a lot of questioning and amplification about Sorabji's political views, which I really don't care about.  Perhaps I'll leave it up to you, Alistair, to tell us if you think the statement is factually accurate?  I'm sure you don't find it apropos to Sorabji's music (nor do I, of course), but Ian does value music on its social criteria, so to him it may be important.

I'm also not going to ask about #5, as that seems to be what Alistair figured it would be about, although Ian's argument isn't exactly unconvincing, I must admit.  However, it does make the comparison to Nazism quite a bit less derogatory as some of the other possibilities, certainly.


As a random, gloating aside, he might play a short piece in memoriam of Babbitt that I'm writing <:

[djealnla]

Ian Pace:

Some of these comments look like they are something of a simplification of what I would have said (or maybe came out rather simplistically when typed in a hurry), but basically:

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."
I think the sentiment was to do with how Sorabji's abilities in terms of harmonic and contrapuntal writing seem deeply limited, in terms of his ability to distinguish between the quality of results - running through the motions with little or no refinement with respect to the result. Hence those interminable fugues, for example. It's a few years since I looked at quite a bit of his music in detail, though - definitely remember finding the compositional ability deeply limited.

Well, maybe we should get some Schenkerian analysis going. 

[john11inc]

Well, maybe we should get some Schenkerian analysis going. 

Schenkerian analysis wouldn't show whether or not the use of such counterpoint was in the best interest of the musical experience, though, so I don't see how it would be appropriate.  Also, I know that his fugues often have to be edited a fair bit, so again I don't think it would even be in your best interest xD  Hopefully Ian will explain himself further, but I think he's speaking more about contrapuntal figures/motifs in works like the OC or the larger symphonies: the sort of brute force inclusion of all of this density on top of a harmony that might not have been benefited by it.

[djealnla]

Schenkerian analysis wouldn't show whether or not the use of such counterpoint was in the best interest of the musical experience, though, so I don't see how it would be appropriate.  Also, I know that his fugues often have to be edited a fair bit, so again I don't think it would even be in your best interest xD  Hopefully Ian will explain himself further, but I think he's speaking more about contrapuntal figures/motifs in works like the OC or the larger symphonies: the sort of brute force inclusion of all of this density on top of a harmony that might not have been benefited by it.

Excessive density, then? That seems to have more to do with texture and pedaling.

[john11inc]

Excessive density, then? That seems to have more to do with texture and pedaling.

So you think that if I played a piece by Takemitsu will full pedal it would be more "dense" than if I played the OC without a pedal?  I really can't agree with your definition.

[djealnla]

So you think that if I played a piece by Takemitsu will full pedal it would be more "dense" than if I played the OC without a pedal?  I really can't agree with your definition.

I'm talking about the way Sorabji wished his music to be played and about what he wrote.

[ahinton]

Schenkerian analysis wouldn't show whether or not the use of such counterpoint was in the best interest of the musical experience, though, so I don't see how it would be appropriate.

I'm afraid that I don't, either.

Also, I know that his fugues often have to be edited a fair bit

Then you know more than I do! All of Sorabji's mss. require editing and typesetting in order to create practical documents for use when preparing performances and the editing process has in every case meant that editors have had to make decisions about specific notes. Som editors have also given consideration to varying the number of staffs per system at various points in order to aim for clearer presentation for the benefit of the would-be performer. In neither case, however, have Sorabji's fugues come in for greater attention than any of the rest of what he wrote.

Hopefully Ian will explain himself further, but I think he's speaking more about contrapuntal figures/motifs in works like the OC or the larger symphonies: the sort of brute force inclusion of all of this density on top of a harmony that might not have been benefited by it.

This opens up quite a can or worms. Ian would certainly need to explain himself further if he is to justify the terms "brute force inclusion" and "all of this density"! By "on top of", in this context, one presumes him to mean "in addition to" (i.e. elsewhere in the non-fugal portions of works that include fugues).

To begin with, there is no evidence of greater textural "density" (and I'll have to presume him to refer to the textural variety until and unless other evidence of what he's talking about is provided) in any of his fugues than there is in his non-fugal writing, nor are the fugues necesarily of unremitting textural density in any case - indeed some are models of textural clarity (viz. the first one in OC and those in the fifth and sixth piano symphonies, for example).

But what (if anything) is supposedly meant by this notion of "brute force inclusion"? Even were one to presume the alleged brute to be the composer, what specific form does this alleged brutishness supposedly take and against whom is it directed - the performers, the scholars, the audience? - all three? And for what reason and to what end? Given that the fugues in Organ Symphony No. 1 and OC were the only ones ever heard in public during the composer's long life and that, between them, they had been performed on less than a dozen occasions by the time that he died, it would appear not to be the audiences!

Many of Sorabji's large-scale works (i.e., those that occupy in excess of, let's say, 2 hours) include a fugue, but let it be remembered at the outset that OC - the one that Ian surely knows better than any of the others - is in every sense an exception, in that it contains four fugues, whereas all of those other works each include only one. Also, a higher proportion of the whole of OC is taken up with fugal writing than any of Sorabji's other works but, given that this is a significant example of that work being to some degree modelled upon Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica, would Ian make the same remark about the "brute force inclusion" of fugues in that work as well?

The fugues in Sorabji's other large-scale compositions are not even disproportionate to the remainder in any case. The first major one has the lion's share (though is not the whole) of the middle movement of a three-movement symphony and that movement is not the symphony's longest either (I refer here to the first example of all - Organ Symphony No. 1). Even the largest (by far) Sorabji fugue ever performed occupies only part of a movement of a work - a movement that has been playing for around an hour before the fugue even begins and is the last of three; that this fugue occupies a credibility-stretching 2 hours has again to be considered in due perspective in that it closes a work that takes a total of almost 9 (I refer here to Organ Symphony No. 2).

For all the above reasons and more, Ian's observation here clearly holds no water at all - but then I wonder how many of these works he has studied; OC and perhaps Organ Symphony No. 1, perhaps, as they were first printed 80 and more years ago, but what of the second and third organ symphonies, six of the seven piano symphonies, Toccatas 2 & 4, the fourth and fifth piano sonatas and the transcendental studies of which there are to be found a whopping one among a total of one hundred pieces? Of these, sonatas 4 & 5, Toccata 2 and Piano Symphony No. 5 are available in typeset editions and Organ Symphony No. 2 has been around as a handwritten edition for almost two decades, but Ian has never ordered any of these from us so, since they are not available from any other source, he would only have been able to consult these at libraries which have them or by borrowing them from colleagues who possess them. Whilst I cannot be certain of the precise extent of Ian's experience of Sorabji's fugues in the context of the composer's work as a whole, I take leave to doubt that his knowledge of the subject is sufficient to warrant such a remark as he has made here, even were it true (which demonstrably it is not).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

OK - so let's start to try to unpack the following examples of the wisdom of Mr Pace as communicated to us via our resident 11-inch vessel (sorry, John - no rudeness intended, so please don't take it as any!)...

Ian Pace:

Some of these comments look like they are something of a simplification of what I would have said (or maybe came out rather simplistically when typed in a hurry), but basically:

"Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent."
I think the sentiment was to do with how Sorabji's abilities in terms of harmonic and contrapuntal writing seem deeply limited, in terms of his ability to distinguish between the quality of results - running through the motions with little or no refinement with respect to the result. Hence those interminable fugues, for example. It's a few years since I looked at quite a bit of his music in detail, though - definitely remember finding the compositional ability deeply limited.

What seems to be most "limited" here is the information that Mr Pace provides. I note with interest but no surprise that he admits to having not examined Sorabji's music in detail for some time, but what does he really tell us here? He does not expand at all on what he perceives Sorabji's harmonic and contrapuntal "limitations" to be, still less offer examples with explanation. What does he mean by "his ability to distinguish between the quality of results"? Is he suggesting that some of Sorabji's works are noticeably better and less harmonically and contrapuntally flawed than others but that the composer could not tell the difference between them? If so, which are the better and which are the worse ones and on what specific grounds might such value judgements be made? Alas, Mr Pace refrains from revealing his secret here, as elsewhere. By what measure are Sorabji's fugues "interminable" (which term is, of course, to be taken not literally but as an analogy for "over-long")? And is he claiming this disproportionality for all of them or only some and, if the latter, which are OK and which not - and why? Oddly enough, he doesn't tell us this either!

"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments."
There's one of his essays in which Sorabji's total and utter contempt and dismissal for female musicians, and anything social constructed as 'feminine' in music. I would argue that his music has a lot to do with eliminating all such elements.

Well, go on, then - argue it, Mr Pace! But, of course, he doesn't, apparently believing it sufficient to state that he "would" seek to argue it! It isn't.

Sorabji certainly did take issue with the adequacy of the physique of certain performers and, in just one of around 60 chapters in his two books of essays, made some trenchant remarks on this subject, many of which were directed towards women performers.

At this point, I should perhaps point out that, in a number of Ian's written observations, he has decided to conclude that I wholly support every word that Sorabji wrote and spoke and every thought that he ever had. Why he should do this, other than in a pointlessly desperate attempt to support one of his arguments, is unclear. As it is, of course, neither I nor any of Sorabji's performers, editors or sholars are mere "clones" of the composer in the way that such a sentiment appears to suggest.

Anyway, whilst by no means seeking to defend Sorabji's every word about women instrumentalists, I do feel that it is sensible and proportional to point out that he was not backwards in coming forward when the performances of particular women delighted him; examples that spring immediately to mind are Guilhermina Suggia, Eileen Joyce, Myra Hess and a number of singers, but there were certainly others among his critical writings. Has Ian read any of Sorabji's published criticism other than those two books of essays? Again, I cannot be certain, but I doubt it. In any case, Sorabji wrote almost no music criticism for the final 45 years or so of his life although he was still compositionally active until he reached the age of 90; as Ian did not know Sorabji personally or correspond with him, it would be unlikely that he would know about the high regard in which he held performers such as Jacqueline du Pré, Yvonne Loriod or Martha Argerich - but then Ian seems not to feel the need to equip himself with overmuch factual knowledge in order to make some of the remarks about Sorabji that he has done here.

But then I digress somewhat; Ian's accusation was that Sorabji's music "expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments"? How does it do this - indeed how could it do it? He doesn't tell us. Surprise, surprise!

"Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself."
Definitely. Totally wrapped up in its own 'inner world'.

But what does that mean? He doesn't even begin to tell us, any more than he bothers to state why he thinks (as presumably he does) that this is a "bad thing"! If, in the absence of any supporting explanation whatsoever, Ian is nevertheless willing to trot out the phrase "totally wrapped up in its own 'inner world'" as though a pejorative dismissal requiring no elaboration and brooking no argument, I don't think that I'd care to know his view of the last five quartets of Beethoven...

"There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."
Quite a number of the Sorabji devotees are also involved with right-wing economic ideas and the like, and some seem alarmingly sympathetic towards Sorabji's own ultra-elitist, ultra-right-wing views.

Really? Does it occur to anyone here at this point that the expectation that such a statement might be followed by a citation of names as examples would be less than reasonable? So, once again, we have a bald statement with no names mentioned and no proof of anyone's involvement in "right-wing economic ideas" or explanation of what "the like" is supposed to represent in this context. We have no list of Sorabji's alleged "ultra-élitist, ultra-right-wing" views, let alone a brief desciption of them that might at the very least seek to distinguish between those of, say, Margaret Thatcher and Adolf Hitler even if that wouldn't of itself illustrate anything about Sorabji's own views.

And what is this élitism" in context and why is it, by implication, something of which only to accuse Sorabji? Have there not been ample other examples from even before the days of Beethoven's remark about the quartet player's "puny violin"? Wasn't Busoni guilty of this? or Alkan before him? and, more recently, Babbitt, Carter, Birtwistle, Boulez and heaven knows how many other composers who have not built their respective careers on abjectly trying to write what they're told that the public wants to hear? No - this really doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

"Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis."
I think what I said was that Sorabji's absolutist theories on race, in which ethnicity is everything (and environment and culture count for little) - to the extent that he can make extravagant claims for ethnic origins for which one has to go back many centuries to find any individual in the genealogy actually resident in the geographical area with which he associates this ethnic group - bear a disturbing resemblance to the sort of racial fundamentalism associated with the Nazis. Claiming that a 700-year old Persian ancestry is all-determining, whether the conclusions are positive or negative (and all positive claims made for such things inevitably imply negative sentiments towards other ethnic groups) is not so different from a policy of exclusion based on the fact that someone may have a distant Jewish ancestor, say.
[/i]

Again, none of this stands up to serious examination. Yes, Sorabji placed racial origin above national identity, but his principal reason for doing so was that the former cannot be changed by history whereas the latter can and often does fluctuate according to political shifts of many kinds - a sort of immutability as distinct from a changeling, in other words. Sorabji's Parsi origins are of a good deal more than a mere 700 years' vintage and were on his father's side only in any case and, as I have already pointed out, "racist" sentiments from people of mixed race are something of an improbability. Mr Pace seeks to argue that Sorabji "can (by which he presumably means "did") make extravagant claims for ethnic origins for which one has to go back many centuries to find any individual in the genealogy actually resident in the geographical area with which he associates this ethnic group", but Sorabji did nothing of the kind - nor would he have done, since he knew well that generations of his father's family were based in and around the city that we now know as Mumbai, which is, of course, in India, not Iran.

It is sadly all too well known that the "racial fundemantalism associated with the Nazis" by definition involved a belief in the need to exterminate a certain race; Mr Pace's implication that Sorabji's racial views "bear a disturbing resemblance to" those is an allegation of great gravity that is wholly unsupported by any evidence that Sorabji sought even to support, let alone to participate in, the extermination of any race. Once again, however, Mr Pace seems to believe that such evidence in not necessary in order for his argument to be convincing; sadly, his belief is once again wholly misplaced.

So, here are my followup questions, before you guys freak out.  Numbering refers to the question I will ask regarding each topic:

1- So would you say his composition displays an inability, or a lack of interest in displaying an ability whose existence we're unsure of?  For instance, are you saying you see that which indicates poor ability, or simply believe he pigeonholed himself somewhat?

It's a fair question, although you might do well to try to probe further and elicit more specific detail here (but perhaps that's your intention following suchever answer as you might get to this)...

2- Are you saying that there is a causal link between his views on female pianists and the type of music he writes vis-a-vis so-as to, in his mind, be inaccessible to a woman performer, for instance?

If that is indeed the case, I hope that you don't merely get "yes" as the answer, for it would need far more than that even to begin to aspire towards credibility. Someone ought to tell Donna Amato, too, methinks! And why did Sorabji wrote most of his songs for soprano and piano?

3- Do you mean that it is more of a voyeuristic listening experience as opposed to an engrossing or involving one?  Or do you simply mean that it's iconoclastic, which isn't inherently an insult?

It will be interesting to read what he comes up with here!...

I'm not going to ask about #4 because to get to the bottom of this would take a lot of questioning and amplification about Sorabji's political views, which I really don't care about. Perhaps I'll leave it up to you, Alistair, to tell us if you think the statement is factually accurate?  I'm sure you don't find it apropos to Sorabji's music (nor do I, of course), but Ian does value music on its social criteria, so to him it may be important.

I hope that I've already done this adequately above and, indeed, I do not find this kind of consideration à propos to Sorabji's music or indeed anyone else's; it may indeed be important to Mr Pace because he values music as you say he does, but that is surely a matter for him personally rather than for the composers or their listeners and should therefore be regarded as such, no more, no less?

I'm also not going to ask about #5, as that seems to be what Alistair figured it would be about, although Ian's argument isn't exactly unconvincing, I must admit.  However, it does make the comparison to Nazism quite a bit less derogatory as some of the other possibilities, certainly.

I don't quite get what you mean here, but I hope that what I've written above will be of some help in exposing the sheer nonsensical nature of this "proto-Nazi" accusation.

Finally, in wishing you luck with your further questioning, I would once again counsel all who are reading Mr Pace's views here - including any additional ones that he may yet deign to provide - to give due consideration at all times to the extent, if any, to which any of Sorabji's performers, editors, scholars, listeners and the rest - or indeed those in charge of A&R and the like at such record companies as Altarus and BIS - concur or idenfity with any of them or whether they are purely the thoughts of Chairman Pace.

As a random, gloating aside, he might play a short piece in memoriam of Babbitt that I'm writing

Who cares if anyone listens? No, of course I don't mean that and it's only a (rather bad) joke - and one that I know will not be lost on you, otherwise I would not have cracked it! I hope, however, that other pianists consider performing it as well. Let us know more about this if you will. Just make damn' sure you don't include any subliminal Sorabji quotes in it!...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You would make a bloody good barrister.

Thal

[ahinton]

You would make a bloody good barrister.

On the contrary, I would make a very poor barrister, notwithstanding your flattering remark; for one thing, I do not have so much a single law degree. In any event, even if I could make a very good one and had actually chosen that profession, I cannot see how I could make out a convincing case for the prosecution were Mr Pace to assume that rôle.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I'm afraid that I don't, either.

See this:

I think the sentiment was to do with how Sorabji's abilities in terms of harmonic and contrapuntal writing seem deeply limited, in terms of his ability to distinguish between the quality of results - running through the motions with little or no refinement with respect to the result.

I understood this quote this way: "Sorabji's voices (in his fugues) achieved melodic independence at the expense of the quality of his harmonies." Thus I supposed that Schenkerian analysis might be done to have a look at the harmonies in Sorabji's fugues and how they compare to the harmonies contained in his non-fugal movements. Even Tellef Johnson, who arguably is one of Sorabji's most active promoters, has stated something similar:

"What is frustrating about Sorabji’s fugues is a problem not unique to him but to all 20th century composers who essentially are attracted to the fugue’s linear or horizontal aspects (the entrance of the various subjects and countersubjects to build textural density and dramatic intensity), but not the vertical (i.e. harmonic) parameters. Therefore, the finest modern fugues tend to focus on idiosyncratic themes that can be easily identified by the ear and simultaneously generate a wild excitement in their reiterations, as to hopefully compensate for the lack of harmonic beauty or mastery that the finest fugues of previous centuries were able to attain."

[ahinton]

See this:

I understood this quote this way: "Sorabji's voices (in his fugues) achieved melodic independence at the expense of the quality of his harmonies." Thus I supposed that Schenkerian analysis might be done to have a look at the harmonies in Sorabji's fugues and how they compare to the harmonies contained in his non-fugal movements. Even Tellef Johnson, who arguably is one of Sorabji's most active promoters, has stated something similar:

"What is frustrating about Sorabji’s fugues is a problem not unique to him but to all 20th century composers who essentially are attracted to the fugue’s linear or horizontal aspects (the entrance of the various subjects and countersubjects to build textural density and dramatic intensity), but not the vertical (i.e. harmonic) parameters. Therefore, the finest modern fugues tend to focus on idiosyncratic themes that can be easily identified by the ear and simultaneously generate a wild excitement in their reiterations, as to hopefully compensate for the lack of harmonic beauty or mastery that the finest fugues of previous centuries were able to attain."

There may be some point to be made here, but Mr Pace was talking about what he claims to perceive as the contrapuntal as well as the harmonic shortcomings in Sorabji writing in general and his fugal composition in particular - and, let's face it, fugues without good counterpoint don't get one anywhere much, as I'm sure you'd agree. Then again, I'm not convinced that Sorabji's fugues should be analysed as though they are entirely independent of the works in which they are cast, where there is much non-fugal writing as well; surely the whole needs to be considered in each case for the fugues themselves properly to be appreciated in context?

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

There's one of his essays in which Sorabji's total and utter contempt and dismissal for female musicians, and anything social constructed as 'feminine' in music, and I would argue that his music has a lot to do with eliminating all such elements.

sic. I would argue that his music has a lot to do with eliminating all such elements.

I wonder which one; I do know he admired greatly at least one female musician (Gola Martin-Smith). Perhaps he just didn't like the distinguish "female" (and/or, for that matter, "male") in "musician". (Like Ives didn't like "the pretty ladies of both genders in the audience"). Like Ustvolskaya detested the idea of a festival for "female composers".  Moreover, I think that quite a bit of the outside "picture" presented by Sorabji may not be equal to the "inside" real person. Reading Sean Owen's "Oral Biography" convinces me of that quite a bit, perhaps Ian could pace through that.
But I am lost at understanding what Ian Pace means by

anything social constructed as 'feminine' in music.

Music is MUSIC, full stop. Finding anything in any music 'feminine' is nonsense. And what is 'social constructed' in music?? Sorabji's music is 'constructed', no extra additives ('social', feminine') needed. It is pure music (and I even say that of the music that is inspired by things outside of music, such as literature).

I would argue that his music has a lot to do with eliminating all such elements.

Then I am really interested to read the proves and arguments on that. I think Donna Amato has a far better sense of what Sorabji's music is "about" than Mr. Pace has. And, for that matter, I think that if one would have asked Sorabji what, say, OC was "about" he might have answered "about 4 hours". (yes that's an adapted quote, but I forgot from who).

If Mr. Pace doesn't like either Sorabji the composer or Sorabji the man, such is his perogative. But then why not just let it be and get on with something else? Btw, has Finnissy's music "anything social constructed as 'feminine' "?

Oh, and those fugues? Well, if a total layman like myself can follow and enjoy a 2 hour fugue, and that after 7 hours of complex music, I'd say that they are not that barren, or "without talent  ...

all best,
gep

[djealnla]

There may be some point to be made here, but Mr Pace was talking about what he claims to perceive as the contrapuntal as well as the harmonic shortcomings in Sorabji writing in general and his fugal composition in particular - and, let's face it, fugues without good counterpoint don't get one anywhere much, as I'm sure you'd agree. Then again, I'm not convinced that Sorabji's fugues should be analysed as though they are entirely independent of the works in which they are cast, where there is much non-fugal writing as well; surely the whole needs to be considered in each case for the fugues themselves properly to be appreciated in context?

Best,

Alistair

Sure, but in that post (the one which I didn't manage to find with Google) Pace was talking about the OC, which is centered around its four fugues. Also, his remark about Sorabji's counterpoint was followed by a comment on his fugues:

I think the sentiment was to do with how Sorabji's abilities in terms of harmonic and contrapuntal writing seem deeply limited, in terms of his ability to distinguish between the quality of results - running through the motions with little or no refinement with respect to the result. Hence those interminable fugues, for example.

Anyway, perhaps one of the reasons why Sorabji's fugues last so long has to the with the length of the themes? Take Beethoven's Op. 106 (the 4th movement) and Op. 133; the motifs aren't very long, yet these fugues are very large, so if we compare Sorabji's fugues with them, there actually isn't much of a proportional difference in length (consider the themes in the Second Organ Symphony's fugue).

[djealnla]

six of the seven piano symphonies

Why did you leave out one of them? I remember having read somewhere that Sorabji wasn't particularly happy with the unnumbered one; perhaps that was your motivation? Or maybe it simply lacks a fugue and my question is silly?   

[ahinton]

Sure, but in that post (the one which I didn't manage to find with Google) Pace was talking about the OC, which is centered around its four fugues. Also, his remark about Sorabji's counterpoint was followed by a comment on his fugues:

But this is about the fugues in OC only, the contrasts between each of which seem somehow to escape Mr Pace's attention in any case and, as i have already observed, if so much fugal input within one work is so anathematic to his sensibilities, why not likewise castigate Busoni's FC?

Anyway, perhaps one of the reasons why Sorabji's fugues last so long has to the with the length of the themes? Take Beethoven's Op. 106 (the 4th movement) and Op. 133; the motifs aren't very long, yet these fugues are very large, so if we compare Sorabji's fugues with them, there actually isn't much of a proportional difference in length (consider the themes in the Second Organ Symphony's fugue).

The length of the subjects in Sorabji's many fugues varies immensely, just as does their nature and other characteristics; there's no hard-and-fast norm that dictated that Sorabji only wrote long fugue subjects. I've already referred to those in the last two piano symphonies and the first one in OC, none of which have lengthy subjects. Your Beethoven analogy strike a particular chord with me, even if in so doing we have to depart momentarily from fugal considerations into those of variation sets (another major Sorabjian area of expression, so still a very pertinent one). The middle movement of my string quintet is a long theme and a small number of variations, just as are the second movements of Beethoven's Op.127 and Op.135 quartets. My variation movement occupies just ten minutes, so we're not talking vast durational terriotory here. Sorabji's fugues are all as long or short as they need to be and, in so saying, I accept that one reason why the fugue in Organ Symphony No. 2 is as long as it is centres around the sheer length of the second and third subjects of that triple fugue.

How much of this material is intimately familiar to Mr Pace, however, remains to be revealed (or not, as the case may be).

Best,

Alistair

[john11inc]

Music is MUSIC, full stop. Finding anything in any music 'feminine' is nonsense. And what is 'social constructed' in music??

Take it up with Nono, Cardew or Rzewski.

[ahinton]

Take it up with Nono, Cardew or Rzewski.

...or not, as each possible contender may or may not please, surely? Yes, of course some composers and performers care deeply about these social connections and seek to "express" them in some way in their work (and why should they not try to do this?) but, ultimately, it seems not to be absolutely necessary for their listeners to subscribe to these concerns in order for them to be able to derive something valuable from the music itself. In any case, the three composers that you quite understandably cite here are not perhaps necessarily typical of composers in more general terms in the context of how this "social" input pertains in the creation and reception of their music.

The English composer Alan Bush (1900-1995) was a deeply committed Communist. Sorabji was, rather obviously, not one. Why, then, was it that Sorabji phoned me one evening to tell me with considerable urgency that I absolutely had to listen to Bush's fourth (and last) opera Joe Hill: The Man Who Never Died, to which he had responded so positively having listened to a broadcast thereof? I would not waste my time in putting that question to Mr Pace, suspecting as I do that I would get pages of unenlightening pseudo-intellectual paragraphs in return, but I thought nevertheless that it might not come amiss to mention this here.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

The length of the subjects in Sorabji's many fugues variues immensely, just as does their nature and other characteristics; there's no hard-and-fast norm that dictated that Sorabji only wrote long fugue subjects. I've already referred to those in the last two piano symphonies and the first one in OC, none of which have lengthy subjects.

I didn't necessarily say that, but even when you consider the fugues with short subjects, their lengths do not seem inappropriate when compared with the lengths some of those that Beethoven created (although he also wrote a very brief triple-fugue in his Op. 120).

Also, I used the adjective "lengthy" as in "lasting many seconds", not as in "comprised of many notes".

Your Beethoven analogy strike a particular chord with me, even if in so doing we have to depart momentarily from fugal considerations into those of variation sets (another major Sorabjian area of expression, so still a very pertinent one). The middle movement of my string quintet is a long theme and a small number of variations, just as are the second movements of Beethoven's Op.127 and Op.135 quartets.

But then we have Op. 131 and its 4th movement... short theme, long variations. 

I hope the Symphonic Variations get recorded someday... well, maybe I should keep dreaming. 

[ahinton]

I didn't necessarily say that, but even when you consider the fugues with short subjects, their lengths do not seem inappropriate when compared with the lengths some of those that Beethoven created (although he also wrote a very brief triple-fugue in his Op. 120).

Also, I used the adjective "lengthy" as in "lasting many seconds", not as in "comprised of many notes".

But then we have Op. 131 and its 4th movement... short theme, long variations. 

I hope the Symphonic Variations get recorded someday... well, maybe I should keep dreaming. 

Indeed - in all cases. There are, as I said, no hard-and-fast rules about this kind of thing; only the resultant music stands on its own two feet and justifies itself or otherwise. Yes - keep dreaming! "We are the music makers / And we are the dreamers of dreams"; that goes for KSS, you and I and others reading this thread and who can possibly know how many others...

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Take it up with Nono, Cardew or Rzewski.

Or Ligeti.

Oops, he's dead.   

[ahinton]

Or Ligeti.

Oops, he's dead.   

As are Nono and Cardew.

So's Rosemary Brown...

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

So's Rosemary Brown...

LOL, I didn't hear this name for several years, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm listening to a piece by her/"Liszt" right now and so far it's not making a very good case for her claims.  

Nah, the piece definitely isn't Liszt's. Diminished chords are positioned too conventionally, too much New Age, odd sequences of chords, a weird, non-Lisztian way of closing a piece, and not many arpeggios and octaves. I win.  

[ahinton]

LOL, I didn't hear this name for several years, thanks for jogging my memory. I'm listening to a piece by her/"Liszt" right now and so far it's not making a very good case for her claims.  

Nah, the piece definitely isn't Liszt's. Diminished chords are positioned too conventionally, too much New Age, odd sequences of chords, a weird, non-Lisztian way of closing a piece, and not many arpeggios and octaves. I win.  

No one wins! - certainly not Liszt himself! In any case, I only introduced RB's name as another not very good joke in the present context on the basis that she might have been capable (not) of "bringing back" some of these deceased composers in some form; even the Requiescat in Pace connection did not occur to me at the time that I did this (and it still doesn't)...

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

No one wins! - certainly not Liszt himself! In any case, I only introduced RB's name as another not very good joke in the present context on the basis that she might have been capable (not) of "bringing back" some of these deceased composers in some form; even the Requiescat in Pace connection did not occur to me at the time that I did this (and it still doesn't)...

Best,

Alistair

I find it amazing how irrational some people can be. For instance, Wikipedia states the following:

In 1969 she was put to a test by the British Broadcasting Corporation, who set her at a piano where she waited for the spirit of Liszt to appear to her. In due course she produced a piece, supposedly dictated by Liszt. Brown claimed the piece was too hard for her to play so another pianist was engaged to play it.

My question is as follows: How did they know she didn't compose the piece prior to that test?