Much bla bla about nothing

[ignaceii]

I quit the fora. Ok, I'm here a last time to tell you why.
As a middle-age piano amateur I find the fora non-structured, and talking about, yes about what really ?
Try perhaps to structure more in subcategories : I don't know (phrasing, technique in romanticism, ...). I know, it's difficult but now, all crazy stuff is being dumped randomly now.
But the essence is that fora just are yet another place to discuss, ok, but also to ridiculize each others point of views, and finally to find yourselve wasting your time trying to prove your point of view.

It's just a waste of time and space on those servers, killing the earth more and more with every bit being written down, for no purpose at all. And then people complain their kids don't do well at school. Sorry for the waste of space and time as you were reading this.

[littletune]

What's a "fora"?  (In my language "fora" means a joke or trick or something like that ). But I'm getting tired of people saying that Pianostreet is not ok and that they're leaving and that it's a waste of time and all that...  I really love Pianostreet! And I think it's great!! 

[stevebob]

This reminds me of the recent grand departure by that member who was preaching that the internet is evil, computers are bad ... blah blah blah. 

I don't agree with most of what ignaceii wrote, and it doesn't generally reflect my own experiences with internet forums over the past 15 years.  Though it sometimes can seem that there's a dearth of helpful, interesting or informative posts, on occasion a sense of community and collegiality is cultivated, too.  I guess it's not for everyone, but that's to be expected.

There's one thing I didn't understand at all:  what does any of this have to do with kids not doing well in school?

[birba]

Well, for one thing, it seems like Becky was always sending me PM during class...

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

What's a "fora"?   (In my language "fora" means a joke or trick or something like that ). But I'm getting tired of people saying that Pianostreet is not ok and that they're leaving and that it's a waste of time and all that...   I really love Pianostreet! And I think it's great!!  

I think fora is plural for forum right? Except I usually use the word "forums". And I love pianostreet too.

A bit off topic... but are you Slovenian? haha sorry it's just that I'm a bit of a linguaphile ... and Slovenian is one of those languages I attempted/am attempting/ will attempt to learn and remember the word fora had something to do with jokes...

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I think fora is plural for forum right? Except I usually use the word "forums". And I love pianostreet too.
EDIT: Fora is the plural of forum in Latin, but some people like to use it in English anyway.

A bit off topic... but are you Slovenian? haha sorry it's just that I'm a bit of a linguaphile ... and Slovenian is one of those languages I attempted/am attempting/ will attempt to learn and remember the word fora had something to do with jokes...

Oops... Sorry! I meant to edit my post but I clicked "quote" instead =/

[littletune]

Well, for one thing, it seems like Becky was always sending me PM during class...

Really? She was sending you private messages?? Oh if I knew that I would be even more jealous!!       Was she sending messages to everyone from here? I mean she never sent one to me! You would think she would want to talk to someone her age sometimes... but no... I guess I just wasn't grownup enough for her    

I think fora is plural for forum right? Except I usually use the word "forums". And I love pianostreet too.

A bit off topic... but are you Slovenian? haha sorry it's just that I'm a bit of a linguaphile ... and Slovenian is one of those languages I attempted/am attempting/ will attempt to learn and remember the word fora had something to do with jokes...

Really? You were or are trying to learn Slovenian? That's cool!   Bob was learning it for a while too! There's a thread where I was teaching him a little Slovenian    

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Really? You were or are trying to learn Slovenian? That's cool!   Bob was learning it for a while too! There's a thread where I was teaching him a little Slovenian    

:O So you are Slovenian? That was really a random guess. I thought there must be some other language where fora means  "joke".
That's really, really awesome... I hardly know any Slovenians in real life.
Yeah like I said, I like learning languages   I wish I could learn every language in the world, actually, but that's not possible. *sigh*
 And also, a few years ago I did a project on Slovenia at school, that's what got me interested...
You were teaching Slovenian here? Wow, cool! I never noticed that thread. It must have been from a long time ago, before I joined pianostreet? I'm not sure who Bob is either (sorry). Will you teach me some Slovenian too???  Prosim? Moja slovenscina je slaba. <- one of the only phrases I remember, and I'm not even sure if it's correct. (Also, I can't type accents) ^^  

[littletune]

:O So you are Slovenian? That was really a random guess. I thought there must be some other language where fora means  "joke".
That's really, really awesome... I hardly know any Slovenians in real life.
Yeah like I said, I like learning languages   I wish I could learn every language in the world, actually, but that's not possible. *sigh*
 And also, a few years ago I did a project on Slovenia at school, that's what got me interested...
You were teaching Slovenian here? Wow, cool! I never noticed that thread. It must have been from a long time ago, before I joined pianostreet? I'm not sure who Bob is either (sorry). Will you teach me some Slovenian too???  Prosim? Moja slovenscina je slaba. <- one of the only phrases I remember, and I'm not even sure if it's correct. (Also, I can't type accents) ^^  

Yes I am Slovenian And I think "fora" must be from some other languages too... I'm not even sure if it's like a word that's in a dictionary  I mean you know if it's not just a word we say when we talk... I'm not sure... Well yes sure I can teach you
You really don't know who Bob is??  He's like a legend here  He's been here for reallyyy long time! 
Here's a link for that thread
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38593.0
And no I guess it wasn't from before you joined, it was just from about the time you joined september 2010. 
And your phrase is correct and for the accents I guess you have to have a keyboard with those letters if you mean the: č, š,ž 
But I think I better don't teach you Slovenian here cause I think it will get removed... 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Yes I am Slovenian And I think "fora" must be from some other languages too... I'm not even sure if it's like a word that's in a dictionary  I mean you know if it's not just a word we say when we talk... I'm not sure... Well yes sure I can teach you
You really don't know who Bob is??  He's like a legend here  He's been here for reallyyy long time! 
Here's a link for that thread
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38593.0
And no I guess it wasn't from before you joined, it was just from about the time you joined september 2010. 
And your phrase is correct and for the accents I guess you have to have a keyboard with those letters if you mean the: č, š,ž 
But I think I better don't teach you Slovenian here cause I think it will get removed... 

Well I have no idea where I learned what "fora" meant. But I know I learned it somewhere, and that it was Slovenian... could it be a part of a folk song or something? Because for my project, I remember I had to present a Slovene folk song I don't know, I did that project like 4 years ago.
   Do you speak any other languages??
I took a look at the thread, I have a lot to learn! I think the first phrase I learn in every language is "I don't speak_______" or "My _______ is bad".  
I thought you meant someone whose name is Bob, but with a different username! I've seen Bob's posts before, but I don't think I ever replied to them... I don't remember. Sorry, Bob, if you're reading this. I haven't been around for very long, that's why...  Maybe once I learn some Slovenian we can have a 3 way conversation
Yeah, this is really off topic...  Where shall we continue this so that you can teach me some Slovenian?

[littletune]

Well maybe you can use Bob's thread (I'm sure he wouldn't mind  ) Or maybe make your own (in Anything but piano forum)... if you want... whatever you want... I liked teaching Bob but then he didn't have time anymore I guess... so I'll be happy to teach you
Oh about the fora... hmm... I'm really not sure... I don't even know if that's like an old word or a more new one...  maybe if you ever heard some Slovenian kids talking or something... I'm really not sure Cause I think kids use it more than grownups But maybe that's just cause grownups usually talk more correct than kids... 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Haha, I doubt I would go up to kids talking in Slovenian and say "Hey, I just heard you say fora. what does fora mean?" 

Anyway, I think I'll start a new thread... That's going to feel weird, I haven't started a new thread in a long time. But I don't want to hijack Bob's thread, and it looks like the Slovenian in that thread got way more advanced than what I know.

[rachfan]

Fora is the plural of forum in Latin.  The word is neuter gender, so doing the declension of nominative, genitive, dative, accusative and ablative case, it would be fora, fororum, foris, fora, and foris respectively.  I hope that helps.

P.S. "Bla" (as in bla blas) would be blae, blarum, blis, blas, and blis in the plural.  

[goldentone]

P.S. "Bla" (as in bla blas) would be blae, blarum, blis, blas, and blis in the plural. 

 

That reminds me of the Latin professor in Dead Poets Society, "Agricoli, Agricola. . ."

[quantum]

P.S. "Bla" (as in bla blas) would be blae, blarum, blis, blas, and blis in the plural.  

  hehehe

[rachfan]

Hi goldentone,

Yes, to be exact, agricola (farmer) would be:

Singular noun: agricola, agricolae, agricolae, agricolam, agrigola

Plural noun: agricolae, agricolarum, agricolis, agicolas, agicolis

I haven't had to deal with that since 1962, but once it's in your head it never leaves.  The downside is that as one gets older, it takes up too much RAM in the brain at the expense of more important information, or at least more important trivia.  

[littletune]

Thanks Rachfan for explaining "fora" !

(but in my language I still don't know where this word came from  I should ask someone ).

Oh and Thinkgreenlovepiano, I forgot to answer about other languages... well I speak well only Slovenian and English... but I understand kinda ok German and French too (if it's not something too complicated!) 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

@ littletune
That's awesome! Did you learn all those languages in school, or what?
 I don't know German at all... 
As for French, whenever I don't know a word in any other European language I try to speak, I have a tendency to just use the French word! It's weird, because French is my third language...  But I might accidentally start mixing French into my Slovenian, and then you can correct me

Ok I'm going to start a thread right now, I forgot to start one yesterday...

P.S. "Bla" (as in bla blas) would be blae, blarum, blis, blas, and blis in the plural.  

Cases make my head spin! 

[littletune]

@ littletune
That's awesome! Did you learn all those languages in school, or what?
 I don't know German at all... 
As for French, whenever I don't know a word in any other European language I try to speak, I have a tendency to just use the French word! It's weird, because French is my third language...  But I might accidentally start mixing French into my Slovenian, and then you can correct me

Ok I'm going to start a thread right now, I forgot to start one yesterday...
 

Cases make my head spin! 

Yes I learned them in school and from TV  but I also know some people who speak French
Oh don't worry about mixing French and Slovenian I would really like to learn French better anyway 

And oh... Slovenian has really a lot of cases  I mean I don't want to scare you... you don't need to learn them that well... people would still understand you even if you used the wrong cases so don't worry about that  yes start a thread 

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Well schools in Slovenia must be really good at teaching languages! French is an official language here but most schools here hardly teach any French and most kids don't care about learning it So after 5 years of mandatory French most students quit with hardly any knowledge at all.

But I really love French... right now I'm a volunteer French tutor because if I get good enough at French, maybe I'll be a teacher in a French immersion school one day

No it's just that I'm not that used to cases! I plan to learn to the best of my ability. I used to go to a Ukrainian church, so I had to learn some Ukrainian 101 , and it has cases too. (Do you know if the cases are the same?) But the first time I heard people speaking about me, I was just thinking, "why do you keep changing the ending of my name??? My name is _______a not ________e!  "  

[littletune]

Well I don't know if schools here are so very great      but yes we do learn a lot of languages! I mean I guess we have to when so little people speak our language

Yes I love French too I guess you could teach me French 

Well I don't know Ukranian but yes probably there are some things that are the same as in Slovenian (cause they're related languages). And yes we would be changing your name too  (well except if it ends with a letter like "i" or "s" then it usually stays the same, for girls).

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Well I don't know if schools here are so very great      but yes we do learn a lot of languages! I mean I guess we have to when so little people speak our language

Yes I love French too I guess you could teach me French 

Well I don't know Ukranian but yes probably there are some things that are the same as in Slovenian (cause they're related languages). And yes we would be changing your name too  (well except if it ends with a letter like "i" or "s" then it usually stays the same, for girls).

Hmm well if everyone speaks English like you, they must teach it really well!  I would never have guessed English wasn't your first language! And Slovenian seems like a cool language... more people should learn it. 

I don't think I'm good at French enough to teach you... (Wanna learn Chinese instead ?) I can tutor kids here because I learned all the stuff they need help with before, but I'm just not as comfortable with French as I am with my native languages. But what about a French conversation thread??? 
I looked it up, Slovenian has 6 cases... Ukrainian has 7! So maybe Slovenian cases won't make my head spin as badly. (Not that I ever mastered the Ukrainian ones, I make mistakes all the time and my friends tease me.. a lot)  My name ends with an "a". And thinkgreenlovepiano ends with "o". So I guess my name will change a lot, either way.

And this thread has really gone off topic (thanks to me  ).  But the title is "Much bla bla about nothing"!

[ongaku_oniko]

Hmm well if everyone speaks English like you, they must teach it really well!  I would never have guessed English wasn't your first language! And Slovenian seems like a cool language... more people should learn it.  

I don't think I'm good at French enough to teach you... (Wanna learn Chinese instead ?) I can tutor kids here because I learned all the stuff they need help with before, but I'm just not as comfortable with French as I am with my native languages. But what about a French conversation thread???  
I looked it up, Slovenian has 6 cases... Ukrainian has 7! So maybe Slovenian cases won't make my head spin as badly. (Not that I ever mastered the Ukrainian ones, I make mistakes all the time and my friends tease me.. a lot)  My name ends with an "a". And thinkgreenlovepiano ends with "o". So I guess my name will change a lot, either way.

And this thread has really gone off topic (thanks to me  ).  But the title is "Much bla bla about nothing"!

你是中国人吗？你会说中文？！！！ ：O：O：O：O

而且你说法语是你国家的官方语言。。。难道你也是加拿大人？温哥华还是多伦多?

and yeah, the European school system totoally trumps the North american chool system. I mean seriously, people who learned english as a second/third language in europe speak better english than people in canada or US... I mean a lot of them do. Just take a random sampling from a random highschool here. How many of the kids do you think will write "how r u" instead of "how are you'? I bet over 89%. But my cousins who live in france learned latin, english, spanish, french and chinese, and they are better than me in all of them... and they're younger, too.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

你是中国人吗？你会说中文？！！！ ：O：O：O：O

而且你说法语是你国家的官方语言。。。难道你也是加拿大人？温哥华还是多伦多?

and yeah, the European school system totoally trumps the North american chool system. I mean seriously, people who learned english as a second/third language in europe speak better english than people in canada or US... I mean a lot of them do. Just take a random sampling from a random highschool here. How many of the kids do you think will write "how r u" instead of "how are you'? I bet over 89%. But my cousins who live in france learned latin, english, spanish, french and chinese, and they are better than me in all of them... and they're younger, too.

是的！你说国语？广东话？还是别的中国语言？
中文是我第一个语言, 但是我是生长在加拿大的。。。我的 “Canadian-ness” 不明显吗？  
温哥华还是多伦多... 你怎么那么确定我住在那两个城市之一？ ：P  
  I completely agree! I mean, I love Canada and my awesome teachers, and I'm really glad we have access to education, but the education system could really be improved. I know education is mostly provincial but I have a feeling it's not just only *Ontario*   with this problem. I mean we're complaining about learning our two OFFICIAL languages. Many people have the attitude that the French language isn't really an important part of Canada, even though its part of our history and culture. But it's not like we do better in English, like you said. Languages and arts are just seen as non-important subjects...  at least at my school. Even though I don't think the science and math curriculum is so well designed either. It's so, so easy in elementary school, and then BAM! in high school many students suddenly start to struggle. Sorry for the ranting, I realize there is no perfect system, but it makes me really sad sometimes.    

If I become a teacher, and if I have the ability, it would be my dream to change all this...  I would start a revolution and improve our school system!  

[ongaku_oniko]

teachers don't change anything. The school board does.

It's really sad, but every year the graduation rate declines. To cover up for this, instead of thinking of ways to improve education, they water down the corriculum so that more students can graduate. Of course, this method doesn't work at all. So they water it down again.

Can you believe that a few decades ago calculus was part of the grade 10 corriculum? Now it's for advanced students who finished grade 12 math a year early...

I know too many students in grade 12 who have trouble doing simple algebra. And by simple, I mean 3 + x = 7. I'm not even joking. Yet all the school board does is water down the corriculum, all the teachers do is complain.

I don't know much about the Ontario school board, but the BC school board just makes me want to throw up. That the graduation rate declines every year shows that the teachers failed at their jobs, not that the corriculum is too hard. Why do private schools, with a much harder corriculum have higher graduation rates? Including the ones that do not have any entrance requirements? You can argue that private school students generally are better off socio-economically, but the root of the problem is simply that the teachers fail to do their jobs.

Yet, in the mere five years I was in Secondary school, the teachers went on strike once, and almost went on strike again, wanting even more money. How much more greedy can they be? They're failing at their jobs, and they want MORE MONEY?

I'm sorry, my experience with the Canadian school system just pisses me off. There are so many things that just don't make sense, teachers can give you whatever mark you want. It doesn't matter if you know the material or not; if the teacher likes you, A. If not, C. It's just soarbitrary, and in the years of highschool, students don't learn the material they're taught; they learn how to make the teacher like them.

And what happens in University? 50% dropout rate in first year.

and 'Cause tht's where all the Chinese people are btw for vancouver I'm including vancouver, north van, west van, surrey, richmond, burnaby, delta, new westminster

for toronto I'm including missisauga, scarborough, oshwa, toronto, and everything in between.

and I can see from your chinese that you grew up here
我七岁来到加拿大的。

BTW: I'm assuming you speak mandarin; I don't think Canto has that kind of a word structure. So it should be obvious what I speak as well, since I'm not sure what kind of a sentence structure canto has

[littletune]

Hmm well if everyone speaks English like you, they must teach it really well!  I would never have guessed English wasn't your first language! And Slovenian seems like a cool language... more people should learn it. 

I don't think I'm good at French enough to teach you... (Wanna learn Chinese instead ?) I can tutor kids here because I learned all the stuff they need help with before, but I'm just not as comfortable with French as I am with my native languages. But what about a French conversation thread??? 
I looked it up, Slovenian has 6 cases... Ukrainian has 7! So maybe Slovenian cases won't make my head spin as badly. (Not that I ever mastered the Ukrainian ones, I make mistakes all the time and my friends tease me.. a lot)  My name ends with an "a". And thinkgreenlovepiano ends with "o". So I guess my name will change a lot, either way.

And this thread has really gone off topic (thanks to me  ).  But the title is "Much bla bla about nothing"!

Well sure I would wanna try to learn Chinese too but I don't know if I could... it seems really difficult! But I could try 

Oh and yes French conversation thread would be cool too!!  But I don't speak very well... I mean I can say things but just not right   

I was thinking about the title of this topic too  Although we're not talking about nothing... we're talking about important linguistic things!!!     

[ongaku_oniko]

Mandarin chinese should be just about the easiest language to learn ever.

Like perhaps if you new spanish than portugese would be easier, but if you didn't know any languages before, Chinese will be one of the easiest languages to learn


TO SPEAK.

The writing system is slightly more difficult, though

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

teachers don't change anything. The school board does.

It's really sad, but every year the graduation rate declines. To cover up for this, instead of thinking of ways to improve education, they water down the corriculum so that more students can graduate. Of course, this method doesn't work at all. So they water it down again.

Can you believe that a few decades ago calculus was part of the grade 10 corriculum? Now it's for advanced students who finished grade 12 math a year early...

I know too many students in grade 12 who have trouble doing simple algebra. And by simple, I mean 3 + x = 7. I'm not even joking. Yet all the school board does is water down the corriculum, all the teachers do is complain.

I don't know much about the Ontario school board, but the BC school board just makes me want to throw up. That the graduation rate declines every year shows that the teachers failed at their jobs, not that the corriculum is too hard. Why do private schools, with a much harder corriculum have higher graduation rates? Including the ones that do not have any entrance requirements? You can argue that private school students generally are better off socio-economically, but the root of the problem is simply that the teachers fail to do their jobs.

Yet, in the mere five years I was in Secondary school, the teachers went on strike once, and almost went on strike again, wanting even more money. How much more greedy can they be? They're failing at their jobs, and they want MORE MONEY?

I'm sorry, my experience with the Canadian school system just pisses me off. There are so many things that just don't make sense, teachers can give you whatever mark you want. It doesn't matter if you know the material or not; if the teacher likes you, A. If not, C. It's just soarbitrary, and in the years of highschool, students don't learn the material they're taught; they learn how to make the teacher like them.

And what happens in University? 50% dropout rate in first year.

and 'Cause tht's where all the Chinese people are btw for vancouver I'm including vancouver, north van, west van, surrey, richmond, burnaby, delta, new westminster

for toronto I'm including missisauga, scarborough, oshwa, toronto, and everything in between.

and I can see from your chinese that you grew up here
我七岁来到加拿大的。

BTW: I'm assuming you speak mandarin; I don't think Canto has that kind of a word structure. So it should be obvious what I speak as well, since I'm not sure what kind of a sentence structure canto has

Well I don't think it's the teachers, its the education philosophy and the culturally-ingrained mentality of students (as long as I pass, who cares? It's all about grades, who cares about learning). I know some countries that teach calculus in grade 10, but there's a lot of things the kids didn't learn before that that would help them understand calculus. And they don't go as in depth. I just wish we sped things up in elementary school. In grade 7, you learn to multiply fractions. But you don't learn to divide them till grade 8?!?

I could totally change things. Climb up the ranks of the Ontario ed. system, and then become a curriculum specialist. Or start my private own school.  

Yeah, I speak Mandarin. But, I know you can tell I grew up here, my Mandarin's been influenced by a lot of different things.. Although I mostly speak Mandarin at home, unless I'm talking about schoolwork. There is no way I could have a discussion with you on calculus in Chinese My brain thinks in a jumble of different languages, mostly English and Mandarin, but sometimes French... o.o My grandma babysat me when I was little, so I only knew Mandarin, and a bit of her dialect. The only English I learned before I was 4 was from TV. Only my English teacher can tell though  , LOL. But most (almost all!) of my Chinese friends here speak Cantonese... and my Chinese school that I went to for like 8 years taught Taiwanese Mandarin. And I'm exposed to my parents dialects a lot, I can understand them but I don't speak it. 

Well sure I would wanna try to learn Chinese too but I don't know if I could... it seems really difficult! But I could try  

Oh and yes French conversation thread would be cool too!!   But I don't speak very well... I mean I can say things but just not right    

I was thinking about the title of this topic too   Although we're not talking about nothing... we're talking about important linguistic things!!!      

You seem to be really good with languages, why can't you learn Chinese? The grammar isn't nearly as complicated as French. Or Slovenian I'm teaching one of my friends, she's doing well. Maybe ongaku_oniko can teach too, haha. And who cares if you don't speak French very well, neither do I Let's start one.
Yes, linguistics are very important! No matter what the people at my school think.  
If I don't become a teacher maybe I'll study linguistics. Or cultures. Or something like that.


@ your new post ongaku, I think its the tones that trip up a lot of people when speaking. But we're all musicians here, so that shouldn't be a problem, right  

[littletune]

Wow really?? Chinese is easy? Cool!   Now I really wanna try learning it   Well but not writing I guess.  

@ your new post ongaku, I think its the tones that trip up a lot of people when speaking. But we're all musicians here, so that shouldn't be a problem, right 

The tones? You speak with tones? Wow cool!  Now I REALLY want to learn it!!!   

[ongaku_oniko]

It's one of the reasons scientists think why a significantly larger %age of Chinese people have perfect pitch than other people.

And yet I still don't have it

@think:
The tones aren't that hard. I know at least 5 white people who learned chinese after they're 30, and speak perfectly. In less than a year. Without going to China.

On the other hand, I don't know ANY person (from anywhere) who can speak English without an accent if they learned it after they're... say around 14.

I came here when I was 7, so my main language is English too. I never went to Chinese school, but I can still speak chinese fluently because well, I speak chinese at home. And after around 2005, so many chinese people started immigrating to canada, especially vancouver. My school was like 80% chinese... 7%korean and 7% indian

So yeah, we spoke more chinese in school than english... It sucks, because my English pronounciation used to be flawless, but now it's.. You can't really say I have an accent persay, but you can certainly tell that I'm asian.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

@littletune
Yup, it's a very "musical" language... so it totally belongs on these forums! Let's start a Chinese thread too

@ ongaku_oniko Don’t be sad, I don’t have it either. My sister has perfect pitch, and English was really her first language. She can speak Mandarin and doesn’t really have an accent, but you can tell it wasn't her first language. And on occasion she mixes up tones. .   
As for your white friends, you have to give them (and their teachers, if they had any ) credit; it must have been because they worked hard (and were smart!), not just because Chinese is easy. Learning any language in less than a year is quite a feat. 
7 means you went to school in China though… right? I have no problem speaking Mandarin, words just come out of my mouth and I never have to think. But when I write, (esp formal writing), it suddenly becomes tricky, because you can’t always write what you would say colloquially. I’m sure there are some expressions/ phrases I use that aren’t even standard Mandarin...

Actually, I know someone on my street who came to Canada four years ago when she was 14 (from Russia). She learned a little English in Russia, but honestly when she first came here she could hardly say anything. Now she speaks with *almost* no accent. If I listen hard, I can hear it, but it could be my imagination. She was really outgoing and extroverted, so she spoke English A LOT, wasn't afraid of mistakes, and improved really fast.

Like I said, there’s a lot of Asians here too, but I almost never speak Chinese to my friends. Don't wanna make my non Asian friends feel left out   I think my Chinese comes out more in my writing, not my speech.  It’s not something noticeable like incorrect grammar or syntax; it’s more the way I phrase things and the words I use. Something that can only be picked up by a pro like my English teacher.     

But seriously, to the people who wanna learn Chinese but think it's hard.. stop being scared of it It’s a really cool language, if I must say so myself.

[ongaku_oniko]

I went to grade 1 for like 2 months, and then I got really sick, so sick I almost died.

But I did go back for a year (grade 4). So yeah, I had a little education in Chinese. I can't write Chinese though. I mean I can type pinyin, but I can't write characters.

They learned chinese in a year, meaning they can say simple sentences and understand really slow chinese. But with no accent. Not like they're perfect at it or anything. And I guess sort of like your sister, no accent but you can tell they're not native speakers.

你说国语？广东话？还是别的中国语言？
中文是我第一个语言, 但是我是生长在加拿大的。。。我的 “Canadian-ness” 不明显吗？   
温哥华还是多伦多... 你怎么那么确定我住在那两个城市之一？ ：P 

I speak colloquial chinese too, but here's why I say your chinese doesn't sound like a native speaker:

First of all, we call mandarin 普通话。I think either canto/HK/tw people started calling it 国语. But not mainlanders.

Normally, we would add 还是 in front each choice, so a or b or c, as opposed to a,b or c.

Now here's your biggest mistake: 还是别的中国语言
Dialects are not called 中国语言". Dialects are called "方言". Normally we would say 还是另一种方言？

Also, 中文是我第一个语言 in this case, you don't need a "个". Better yet, you should've said "母语".

 但是我是生长在加拿大的 would be roughly equvalent to "But I have been growing up in Canada".

It's not really wrong, but people don't usually say it that way. They say "我在加拿大长大的"


And that's about all :p

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I see. I only went to preschool in China, during a 6 month vacation. (So much for vacation  ) I was 3! What was school in China like, do you remember?
 
About me not sounding like a native speaker (which I don't expect to sound like), you bring up some pretty interesting points. A lot of my "non-native sounding-ness" comes from nuances I want to express in writing, that I wouldn't think about while speaking. I'm kind of OCD about my word choice. Even in English, my word choice is based on a lot of personal interpretations of what a word means... and nuances just matter a lot to me.

Seriously, linguistics fascinate me, so please don't be annoyed by the possibly long post that follows.  

First of all, we call mandarin 普通话。I think either canto/HK/tw people started calling it 国语. But not mainlanders.

Hmm I didn't notice there was a difference. I use them interchangeably but I'm more used to 国语.    In my family  I think we use  国语 more! Or just 中文, actually.   And like I said, I went to a Chinese school run by Taiwanese teachers. So it was always  "国语学校".. "讲国语!“ etc...   (in traditional characters, of course, but my computer only does simplified )  

Now here's your biggest mistake: 还是别的中国语言
Dialects are not called 中国语言". Dialects are called "方言". Normally we would say 还是另一种方言？

Actually I'm glad you brought this up! I wasn't sure how to say this one...Because I was reading about how some Chinese people object to their language (or should I call it dialect? topolect??? ) being called a "dialect" or 方言.
My parents don't mind so I call their "dialect" a dialect, but haven't you read the blogs and campaigns or whatever saying: ___语不是方言，而是一种语言! Or something along those lines. I didn't want to offend you. (I know, silly for a politically incorrect person like me )   BUT  What word what you use if you didn't want to call it  "方言" ?   I just used what popped up in my head first...

Also, 中文是我第一个语言 in this case, you don't need a "个". Better yet, you should've said "母语".

 但是我是生长在加拿大的 would be roughly equvalent to "But I have been growing up in Canada".

 

Yes you're right , thanks (: This is what I mean by not knowing how to write stuff. Like colliqually, I wouldn't say the 个... but in writing I just add stuff to make it sound less casual.
 Seriously, when I'm done high school, I have to go to summer camp in China or something and perfect my Chinese.
 And I wanted to emphasize that it was the first language I learned. If I'm Chinese, isn't Chinese automatically my 母语? Or is my assumption about this wrong?  
(Even in English, I still don't know what the widely accepted distinction is. For me, native language= your best language, mother tongue= your mother's language that you learned as a child.)  

 As for 但是我是生长在加拿大的, it's another one of my writing flaws. I would colloquially say 我在加拿大长大的 without thinking, but when I thought about it, I wanted to emphasize that I was born here too... My parents use it (生长在加拿大) when describing me to their friends though...

Where in China are you from, if you don't mind me asking? (:

[ongaku_oniko]

Hi, you would love my grand father. He is an expert in Chinese linguists and history. Like probably one of the best there is in the world alive right now. He isn't a professor or anything (Do you know NanKai DaXue in Tianjin? One of the best in China? Well, the current chair and my grandfather once wrote a test to see who would be taken under the wing of this really famous history in Nankai, and eventually become a history prof in Nankai. My grandpa scored 80% on the exam, the current chair scored 60%. Everyone else got like failing marks, lol. but the other guy was chosen because of connections My grandfather was offered to try out at Nanjing University, but he declined since his family was in Tianjin)

He is very interested in linguistics, and has learned from many of the most famous professors in Peking, Tsinghua, Nankai, etc etc etc... so he's a real expert.

As for myself, I never liked languages, didn't go to chinese school... heck as you can see even my English suck... I just ... don't like languages. I mean I like to learn new languages to a point where I can understand and converse, but I don't like to go in depth, study literary devices and poems and such. Like I HATE Shakespeare. IMO the anime Romeo X Juliet is so much better than the original.


But that's beside the point. I only said all that because I know I'm not pro in Chinese, and I don' want to pretend to be. Some of my advice may not be good, and I don't want to mislead you.

In terms of school in China, I have some memories of my grade 4 year, none of my grade 1 year though. What would you like to know?

My parents use 国语 a lot now too, but I have NEVER heard this term in China. Maybe people use it abroad to distinguish it from the other dialects? I don't really know, but you know, in actuality not many people speak canto or any other dialect at all in China. I mean there is quite a bit, but they're all concentrated in one area, you wouldn't meet people who spoke canto in Beijing, for example. But it's different in Canada, where when people hear "chinese", I think the image they have in their minds is canto. I mean After all, for the first 100 years, immigration abroad was mostly people from GuangDong and HK.


Anyway, I guess I'm pretty... nationalistic? lol... I dismiss claims that dialects are not dialects so I never really thought about that question... Maybe I would say 别的语言. Adding China in front of it just sounds wrong to me. Oh well...


regarding the other part, wow. I never thought about sutle distinctions like that, and I wouldn't bother to explain it to people unless they asked. Nor would I pick up what you're trying to say (liek stressing that though it's your first language, it's not your best).

Perhaps you could've said:
虽然中文是我的母语，但是我是在加拿大生的　

If you're using 生长on others, it doesn't sound wrong to me, but when describing yourself, it sounds a bit wrong for some reason. Maybe I'm just crazy, it's better if you ask your parents about this one.

I'm from TianJin, you?

[invictious]

虽然中文是我的母语，但是我是在加拿大出生的　
That sentence would be find if it were informal.
生长 means to grow physically larger, or develop.

Chinese is not easy to learn, especially the writing system. What makes life easier is the grammatical structure, where it is very easy to change into past tense or future tense etc.

Mandarin is indeed called 普通话, but in HK, TW and some other places we call it 国语

[ongaku_oniko]

Again, don't know much about grammar, but from what I know, 出生 and 生的 both work. When you're speaking, I mean.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

@ongaku_oniko Wow, he definitely is an expert.  Yeah, your grandfather sounds really cool !.    
But you know, Chinese school sooo wasn't a choice for me. Like all "good" parents, my parents signed me up Mandarin class, Saturday school (for math), Reading club, ballet, etc from an early age.   I know they wanted the best for me, but I certainly didn't beg them to sign me up!
Well most of the literature we study isn’t easy reading, so I understand. If it weren’t for my awesome English teachers in HS who helped me appreciate English as an art…  Shakespeare, poetry, and all that would kill me too!
I just want to know how school is different from here, I guess? My parents tell me if I went to school in China, I would die, and that all the kids are overachievers.  Is it really so horrible?

Come to think of it, I remember reading that Guoyu and Putonghua were both used in China before 1950 something, when Putonghua was chosen as the official term (since it was preferred by the left wing intellectuals). So I think 国语 would be used by older people? My parents weren't born yet in the 50s, but the use of words takes time to phase out... so I guess the people in China now wouldn't use it much anymore. In Taiwan, the official language is officially called 国语 though. I've heard Canto people use both.

I'm proud of my Chinese heritage and the Mandarin language , but as a culture and language lover, I understand why people want their dialects to have more status.   I mean a lot of these 'dialects' are dying out Extinct languages= how cultures die out. Plus most of them aren’t even mutually intelligible with Mandarin. I don't get it though, when people call Cantonese "Chinese", and Mandarin "Mandarin"... grr It makes a lot of non Chinese people here wonder, “where do they speak Mandarin?”

Like I said, I have linguistic OCD...   Other people may not know or understand my nuances, but they matter to me just the same. The thing is for Chinese, my vocab is way too informal for me to do it right. Which might be why writing essays take me so long! (And why no one really understands what I'm trying to say, in any language. )

 Tianjin ? Well the dialect spoken there is closer to Mandarin than where my parents are from My family’s from southern China…

虽然中文是我的母语，但是我是在加拿大出生的　
That sentence would be find if it were informal.
生长 means to grow physically larger, or develop.

Chinese is not easy to learn, especially the writing system. What makes life easier is the grammatical structure, where it is very easy to change into past tense or future tense etc.

Mandarin is indeed called 普通话, but in HK, TW and some other places we call it 国语

Thanks for the clarification...

So have I been misunderstanding my parents the whole 10+ years of my life?   They always say "这里生长的孩子"。。。 or something along those lines..  What would that mean.
I don't think any language is easy to learn... it's a lifelong process. But no language is impossible to learn, either.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I guess what he was trying to say is that it's not as formal. I feel like I'd have the tendency to use 出生 just for that sentence, it just sounds more 'balanced' to me. Probably more of my weirdness.

[ongaku_oniko]

For me, my OCD is for pronounciation. I won't attempt a language if I'm not confident that I can get the pronounciation correctly. As in, not have an accent.

I don't care about anything else in a language. Sort of a curse, since it's hard to learn any language without an accent after you're 12, which I'm waaaaay past.

I gave a city's name, but you give half of China as a target, how fair

But yeah, I'm sure you could understand the tianjinese dialect, although there may be a few words you won't know. But I speak perfect putonghua, if I say so myself Not to brag, but I could totally be a CCTV announcer... if I only learned how to read Ma, my voice doesn't sound that nice though, so I guess not. But my chinese pronounciation is perfect. English... used to be, not so much anymore

Well, I was sort of forced to go to Chinese school too, until they realized I had no motivation whatsoever. My parents forced me to do fencing, piano, sketching, watercolor, skating, swimming, baseball, basketball, skiing, snowboarding, Wushu... but I quit them all since I just wasn't motivated. But now I'm picking up piano again.

Well, let me tell you this: the worst students in the worst schools in China come here and get straight As. I know more than a few examples.

Actually when I was young and not so critical of the world, and when intelligence played more part in school achievement than hard work, I did quite well, even in China. I wasn't the very top, but about 96% average. Pretty much everyone had 90%+ though... I remember this one English test where I got 96% because appearantly my stroke order for writing the letter "E" was wrong, and I didn't put a little tail on my t's. :@

And I remember my English teacher seriously tell everyone to pronounce English words like pinyin. I almost puked. She calls giraffes "Ji Da Fu"... and the whole class followed her... poor class. This is why I'm totally against my cousins learning English in China. It probably does more bad than good...

But yeah, back in the day, students weren't that competitive (moreso than here though, definitely). When my parents were in school, it was so chill... they got half day classes and barely any homework...

But now, my cousins in grade 7 has to stay up and do homework until 2am EVERYDAY, and wake up at 6am. And it's the norm, not an anomaly. Kids in China are crazy these days. Piano, art, sports, and a hell lot of homework. everyone's competeing, since there are so many people, and only so many spots in prestigious universities, and even less in jobs.

Getting into a "good" elementary school costs 120,000 RMB. Seriously. Not private schools, but a PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. You say "but schools in China are supposed to be free". Except that that's only on the surface, and without a "gift" or connections to the top, you won't get anywhere. My 6 year old cousin "only" paid 6k RMB to get into her elmentary because she's coming to Canada soon, and so they don't really care too much about which elementary she went to.


So yeah, Chinese people areabsolutely crazy about schooling, and I highly doubt you'd survive there either. (although I don't know you, and yo might be a uber genius).

[ongaku_oniko]

BTW I reallyquestion your sources for that. My grandparents don't say guo yu. They say putonghua.

As I said, I never heard guo yu in China. And I don't hang out with kids when I go to China, since I don't know anyone my age. Only my aunts, uncles, grand parents, and their friends.

also, Sheng Zhang isn't really physically growing. It's an all around growing. Development seems right. But it's definitely not physical. So really, it can be used in that context.

I still don't think 我在加拿大生长is right though. But if you parents says it, it does sound right. I can't really figure out how to say it in first person, right now.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I said that *both* Putonghua and Guoyu were used before the 1950s. Also, maybe my parents and grandparents were influenced by the Taiwanese and Cantonese here. They’ve been living here for 2 decades. *shrugs* It doesn't really matter, both terms are understood (: My source was from some Chinese article, I can't find it right now.

I can relate about the accent thing, I’m really self conscious about pronunciation.  But I asked a friend from France about it, and she thinks our English accent when speaking French is cute!

Yeah, I have family friends from Tianjin (: Pronunciation isn't a problem for me either, but unlike you I could NOT be a CCTV announcer. First of all, I'm not good with the formal language, as you can tell. AND my public speaking is awful!! I would get so nervous I'd start stuttering, and then forget what I was talking about.

I can't give you a city name; my parents were from different cities, in southeastern* China. If you really want to know, I'll PM you. : P

 My parents told me the same thing about school being chill when they were my age. They said they didn’t have to work nearly as hard as kids here do. Yet they can still help me with all my schoolwork.

BUT Wow school in China seems really intense. I can't believe my cousins survived it.
Without giving too much away about what school I go to, I’m going to say I’m part of a program that forces students to sell their soul to academics. It’s killing me. But even so, I get at least 5 1/2 hours of sleep! (sleep at 2, wake up at 7:30).   (Thank goodness its March break and I finished all my work for once. Once it's over, goodbye pianostreet ) So if I can't handle this, I wouldn't survive in China. I'm so glad my parents immigrated here, haha.

You must be an uber genius to have gone to school in China at all!

I asked my parents, and 我在加拿大生长 makes sense to them.  But  I should just stop using phrases when writing I don't normally use…
 See we do learn things on Pianostreet, unlike what the OP said. Thanks to this thread my Chinese skills just got a tad bit better. (Now I gotta work on my English, and French, and Slovenian, and piano! )

[ongaku_oniko]

hmm... I can think of a few examples =] (of highschools)

I don't know many schools in Ontario (highschools) but I do know a few...

What grade are you, and where do you plan on going for university? The states or staying in Canada?

and yeah, I can't do public speaking either. I'm just saying my accent is good for mandarin, but otherwise I'm totally unfit.

The thing is, people have incredible adapting abilities. If you were in China, you'd probably think it's just normal and not that hard.

The word isn't that HARD, but it's so repetitive... like here's a book, copy the first chapter 20 times, or memorize this and this and this passage in a day. It's annoying work without much thinking. Although because of this, they can do a lot of complicated math problems because their basic math knowledge is so ... well... good.

I guess... Let's say 100 is god and 1 is a vegetable. And let's say The best students in Canada and America are 80s. The worst are like 3. My ranking based on my biased opinions and the little I know about different school systems:

Canada and US:
3-80
average: 20

Britian and other EU:
30-80
average: 60

China, Japan, Korea:
40-80
average: 60

But EU has a more balanced system than East asia.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, on average, North America sucks. But if you compare the best students, they're pretty much the same everywhere.

Maybe the problem is with 我在加拿大生长 vs我生长在加拿大

more importantly.. shouldn't you be in school right now?

perhaps you've been lying about your age? :O:OO

perhaps YOU'RE BECKY?!!!!!!!!!

nah, I'm just kidding. But really, shouldn't you be in school?

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

 Agh... I really don't want to think about university.  I just finished course selection for high school next year, and that was stressful enough.  I have no idea what I'm going to study, so I have no idea what uni I'm going to either. 
I want to learn it all, but I know I can't, I have to decide on something.
(Since you're in uni, I have a question: can I do anything with bio and physics, but no chem? Not that I think I'm the scientist type, I don't know, but I've always found bio and physics pretty interesting. Yet I can't stand chemistry, I've had way too many bad experiences with it. )

So yeah, I'm completely unprepared for my future. 

I don't know if it's just repetition that works. It doesn't work for me at least. My parents are always telling me to stop doing so much math homework and actually think about the problems, try to come up with formulas by myself.
Something I was wondering about: What was Chinese class like in China...?


I don't know much about school systems, but yeah I agree you may be a little biased 
3 is almost a vegetable

 

[ongaku_oniko]

which means you're at most grade 11, a little kid :p

Well, I guess there's ONE thing you can do...

Become the US secretary of Energy

But yeah.. bio and physics without chem? kinda hard... There is biophysics and medical equipment operations and stuff that requires bio and physics, I wouldn't say it has NO chem though...

Chem is so awesome how can you hate it... it's not boring like bio and random like physics.

And well, unfortunately people here aren't much smarter than vegetable. Do drugs, have sex, get drunk in high school... don't give crap about their future... I can't stand such things. I like vegetables a lot better.


What I described was Chinese class. Forced to copy from stories and memorize them. It's supposed to help with understanding.

Their philosophy is, if you don't understand, just keep copying until you do. I always doubted this method, but somehow, it appears to work for most people.

I guess the thing is, while understanding is really important, you can't have a solid understanding without repetition. I mean you might THINK you understand, but when the tests come, you realize there are things you didn't understand after all. Ever have that happen? YOu think you know everything before an exam, and bam, the exam comes and there are questions you don't know how to do!

So repetition reenforces the concepts in your mind, and helps you find any weak points. Afterall, at least for math, you can't really repeat unless you sort of understand the concepts..

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I WISH I was still a little kid
It's funny, when I was in grade 6 I thought I was old and growing up too fast, and now I look at grade 6s and I'm thinking, wow they're so young! I wish I could be 12 again.

 

US secretary of Energy? One problem... I'm CANADIAN. Probably the most patriotic one you'll meet, since most Canadians aren't so patriotic...

You haven't taken chem at my school. Chemistry was a class of fear and terror. But basically, I don't have enough room to take the courses I should take (like chem) and the courses I like. I've already been taking summer courses every year because my school year is just overloaded.

Yeah I know what you mean, obviously you can't just read the textbook and never practise (especially for things like math) but you can't just keep doing practise questions and think, "I understand all of this, because all my answers are correct". Because that used to be my philosophy for math. I had a fuzzy understanding of concepts, got all my homework questions right, did lots of practise, memorized formulas, even did well on tests... and then when I started studying for exams, I realized I forgot half the things I learned and started to panic.
 
 

[ongaku_oniko]

I wish I was still pre-grade 12... ah, the blissfully ignorant days of childhood...

little babies...

and ha! patriotic to the 51st State of the US? pssht...

ever done pascal/cayley/fermat? If you don't get 142+ on those (okay, 136, 1 silly mistake permitted), then yeah, your math skills is seriously.... lacking.

That's why I never learn math at school. It's pointless. You don't learn anything. Forget everything by the end of the year. The questions are all like plug it in the formula, done. No critical thinking whatsoever.

[littletune]

@littletune
Yup, it's a very "musical" language... so it totally belongs on these forums! Let's start a Chinese thread too

Ok I'll start it  But a little later this week cause now I have soo many things to do till Wednesday. Tomorrow I almost won't have time to eat!  Cause I'll be at school till 4.15 pm and then my dad will drive me home and then I only have like 1 hour so I can eat something and go out with my dog and then my dad will drive me to my piano lesson... I usually don't have so many things in one day ! (I know some kids do, but I'm not used to it).
Oh how will I learn the right tones?

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I wish I was still pre-grade 12... ah, the blissfully ignorant days of childhood...

little babies...

Blissful? Ahaha, no. I actually can’t wait till grade 12, by then I’ll have all the headache causing courses out of my way.

and ha! patriotic to the 51st State of the US? pssht...

Did you pass grade 5 social studies? The US has 50 states!

ever done pascal/cayley/fermat? If you don't get 142+ on those (okay, 136, 1 silly mistake permitted), then yeah, your math skills is seriously.... lacking.

I got zero on all of them, because I never took them before. It’s ok, I know my math skills are lacking. You’re going to think I’m crazy, but I honestly had a nightmare about integrals before my math exam. (The things we admit online, thanks to anonymity…)

That's why I never learn math at school. It's pointless. You don't learn anything. Forget everything by the end of the year. The questions are all like plug it in the formula, done. No critical thinking whatsoever.

I actually have good math teachers (who are unfortunately stuck with un-mathematical students like me…)  And like I said before, thanks to the school I go to, I actually get a pretty demanding math education. Maybe you wouldn’t consider it tough, since I remember you said you were studying something math related, so you must be a math whiz... But the curriculum isn’t based on north American standards, so it would be designed for at least 30s on your scale. 



@ littletune, I’m going to be busy too, once school starts again. So take your time   But in (Mandarin) Chinese there’s only 5 tones. How many tones are there on the piano?!

[ongaku_oniko]

5 tones? five tones? Five tones? Five Tones? FIVE TONES?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*faint*


There are four tones :| and don't try to tell me that there's a "silent tone" :|

And they're not really tones, since they're not really based on any pitch. Not piano tones, anyway.

when you get to univ, you'll realize how lucky you are now.

And no, I suck at advanced mathematics. I only do noob highschool contest questions.

And my math teachers are quite pro too. Like internationally.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

YES , I’m counting the silent (or neutral) tone!! I didn’t want to confuse littletune (surprised we didn't scare you off yet, littletune  )… Because whether you count it or not, it still exists and it must be learned! It’s not like the other tones and it isn’t really silent. Kind of reminds me of a raindrop. Or staccato.
Without that 5th tone, Mandarin would sound odd. It’d kind of be like putting  the emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble. No tones aren’t the same in Chinese and in music, but they do have a relation:
    Here’s a link for you littletune , it relates the tones to music https://www.foreigners-in-china.com/learn-to-speak-chinese.html

If I make it to uni, you mean… I said I'm excited about grade 12, not uni. Uni probably means I have to stop piano, I'll be way too busy :| (Are you living in residence? How do you practise?)
 But   my friends in uni say its way better than high school. More freedom, more SLEEP. I’d like to believe them over you, not because you’re less credible, but I’m trying to combat my pessimism and I’d like to think that life gets better. (: