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Topic: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?  (Read 6547 times)

Offline jbmajor

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IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
on: August 23, 2004, 07:26:14 AM
I really like some of Beethoven's, but haven't heard much of anyone else's.  

I'm going by sheer range of dynamics, interesting melodies, counter melodies, and not necessarily the most difficult.  
Mostly, what sonatas stand out to you as being great works?

Offline Daevren

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #1 on: August 23, 2004, 04:02:55 PM
To me, Scriabin. Most of his sonatas are absolutely stunning. No.5 7 8 9 and 10 are great. The first movement of 3 and the last of 2 are also nice.

But its also a matter of taste. Sure Beethoven, Haydn and Scarlatti all have great piano sonatas. But I prefer something more romantic and harmonic advanced.

Offline Nightscape

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #2 on: August 23, 2004, 04:28:00 PM
I will second the Scriabin sonatas.  I really like them all, because each one has something different to offer the listener - each is a portrait of some mood, or concept.  The first is very dark and dreary, and the second is a bit dreamier.  The third has a fresh, energetic feel, and the fourth has a mysterious, exotic feel.  The fifth is exciting and joyous.  The sixth is wicked and spiteful.  The seventh is very mystical and brilliant.  The eight is downright depressing - full of melancholy and anxiety.  The ninth is unafraid - it is an up front statement of the darker human emotions.  And finally the tenth is to me the most unusual, it has a certain lightness about it yet still something feels strange...

And if you include Vers la flamme as a sort of "11th sonata"(may have been a sketch of one), you get a piece that provides a very vivid picture to the listener.

All in all a great set.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #3 on: August 23, 2004, 04:55:36 PM
Well, there are so many great sonatas out there, it's hard to pick just one.  However, to my mind, the greatest overall Sonata composers in the standard repertoire were Beethoven, Scriabin, and Prokofiev.

Offline jbmajor

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #4 on: August 24, 2004, 04:46:58 AM
Thanks everyone; I'll check these out. :)

Offline jcromp78

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #5 on: August 24, 2004, 08:24:13 AM
I would also recommend the Rachmaninoff B flat op 36.
Difficult piece but nevertheless but full of interesting ideas, melodie and harmonies.

For truly romantic sonatas don't pass over the Schumann Sonatas. These are amazing pieces especially the F# minor one.

Offline rohansahai

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #6 on: August 31, 2004, 12:04:48 PM
Hey, you missed out a great composer there, Rohan Sahai!!! My 544th sonata (op. 3090 no. 33) is just awesome!!! Okay, just kidding!
For me, its Beethoven and Schubert. Scriabin is good too but i hate Prokofiev!
Waste of time -- do not read signatures.

Offline blindmouth

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #7 on: August 31, 2004, 10:13:34 PM
three strikes for scriabin and he's out.

his etudes are good but his sonatas never cease to amaze me. for second place it would have to be a four way tie between scarlatti, liszt (just that one sonata), chopin, and beethoven.

does anyone know if there is a nickname for the fourth sonata?

Offline bachmaninov

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #8 on: September 01, 2004, 04:14:54 AM
Ehhh.. Im not a HUGE fan of Beethoven. But i admit that his sonatas cannot be beat... Here are my favorites

1. Waldstein
2. Pathetique
3. Hammerklavier
4. Appasionata
5. Moonlight

Those are probably his best ones too heh.

Offline liszmaninopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #9 on: September 01, 2004, 04:23:49 AM
Don't forget op. 7, the Tempest, op. 101, op. 109, op. 110, and, greatest of all IMO, op. 111.

Offline janice

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #10 on: September 01, 2004, 04:27:36 AM
Beethoven Sonatas are the best!!!  Haydn sonatas are also awesome!!!
Co-president of the Bernhard fan club!

Offline klavierkonzerte

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #11 on: September 01, 2004, 10:33:28 AM
check out mendelssohn G minor sonata (amazing) and grieg sonata.

Offline piglet

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #12 on: September 04, 2004, 02:56:37 PM
Scriabin. Absolutely.

Offline alextryan

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #13 on: November 12, 2004, 10:42:20 PM
Of course, how many noteworthy composers wrote in the sonata form?  Brahms gave it up before he got really good.  Debussy didn't write any I know of.  Chopin only wrote two or three.  Not Gershwin, not Granados, not Grieg.  Not Mendelssohn, not Albeniz. 

(Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'll go listen to them.)

Schubert wrote many sonatas, some of them spectacular.  Richter really seemed to like them. 

Anyway, point is that there were only a few composers who really did the sonata thing -- basically Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Scarlatti... and who else?  I personally love the symphonic feel of a sonata, with great contrasting movements that mysteriously make up a whole.  But I would caution against putting too much enthusiasm on a composer just because he wrote great sonatas.

I say this as I launch into Beethoven's 109.  What a terrific piece of music!

Offline hodi

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #14 on: November 12, 2004, 11:52:24 PM
mendelssohn wrote only 3 sonatas but they are really great
he wrote the g minor sonata when he was 12!!

Offline presto agitato

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #15 on: November 13, 2004, 01:28:07 AM
Schubert and Beethoven are the masters of sonatas.
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline chozart

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #16 on: November 13, 2004, 02:14:29 AM
Schubert and Beethoven are the masters of sonatas.

heh yeah

Haydn's sonatas are good too. Mozart has a select few that are very good, but sonatas were not his strong suit, in my opinion.

I generally agree about the Schubert & Beethoven comment, though :)
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music."
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #17 on: November 13, 2004, 06:07:33 PM
The Beethoven Sonatas are the best ever written, but I also like Mozart, Scarlatti, Schubert or Brahms Sonatas.

Offline Piazzo22

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #18 on: November 13, 2004, 06:24:49 PM
It´s all about genres but I think the greatest sonatas are Prokofiev´s.
August Förster (Löbau) owner.

Offline Goldberg

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonata
Reply #19 on: November 13, 2004, 07:19:19 PM

Offline DarkWind

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #20 on: November 16, 2004, 07:12:03 AM
I would say Prokofiev, and Ravel. Ravel, you ask? He didn't write any sonatas! Well, you are somewhat right there. However, he did compose a piece that is basically in a perfect form of a sonata, that piece being none other than the notorious Gaspard de la Nuit! Think about it. Ondine, fast, but not too much. Le Gibet, slow and lyrical. Scarbo, fast, scherzo-like, crazy!

Offline Regulus Medtner

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #21 on: November 16, 2004, 11:31:35 AM
Medtner's sonatas are absolute masterpieces as well.

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #22 on: November 20, 2004, 02:09:53 PM
Medtner's sonatas are absolute masterpieces as well.

thats what i was gonna say!

mednter's sonatas - in my opinion, taken as a whole - are the richest set of romantic sonatas in the whole literature.

Offline Tibor

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #23 on: November 20, 2004, 05:47:39 PM
I think that Beethoven's sonatas are the best.

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #24 on: November 20, 2004, 05:53:07 PM
agreed, but when i used the term 'romantic' i meant post-beethoven

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #25 on: November 21, 2004, 04:35:22 AM
Liszt Eb, you know it, you love it. Good night.

Offline Daniel_piano

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #26 on: November 21, 2004, 05:19:14 AM
Liszt Eb, you know it, you love it. Good night.

Scarlatti:

Sonatas:

366, 103, 387, 383, 349, 413, 210, 104, 487, 118, 352, 391

You can find anything on these Sonatas
Despite being baroque, there a bit of Romanticism, Impressionisn e Neorelism as well in these masterpieces

Haydn Sonatas are very underrated, many of them are beautiful and full of musical ideas

Hummel Sonatas are wonderful as well


Daniel
"Sometimes I lie awake at night and ask "Why me?" Then a voice answers "Nothing personal, your name just happened to come up.""

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #27 on: November 21, 2004, 05:54:11 AM
Of course, how many noteworthy composers wrote in the sonata form?  Brahms gave it up before he got really good.  Debussy didn't write any I know of.  Chopin only wrote two or three.  Not Gershwin, not Granados, not Grieg.  Not Mendelssohn, not Albeniz. 

(Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I'll go listen to them.)

Schubert wrote many sonatas, some of them spectacular.  Richter really seemed to like them. 

Anyway, point is that there were only a few composers who really did the sonata thing -- basically Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Scarlatti... and who else?  I personally love the symphonic feel of a sonata, with great contrasting movements that mysteriously make up a whole.  But I would caution against putting too much enthusiasm on a composer just because he wrote great sonatas.

I say this as I launch into Beethoven's 109.  What a terrific piece of music!
liszt sonatas are in a very complex sonata form (b minor and dante sonata as far as i know)...as im sure other romantic sonatas were in a very complex sonata form thats almost impossible to interpret

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #28 on: November 21, 2004, 05:57:16 AM
I would say Prokofiev, and Ravel. Ravel, you ask? He didn't write any sonatas! Well, you are somewhat right there. However, he did compose a piece that is basically in a perfect form of a sonata, that piece being none other than the notorious Gaspard de la Nuit! Think about it. Ondine, fast, but not too much. Le Gibet, slow and lyrical. Scarbo, fast, scherzo-like, crazy!
if gaspard de la nuit is considered a sonata ...then so are most symphonies, piano concertos, quartets, etc. for they are usually written in sonata form

Offline chelsey

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #29 on: November 21, 2004, 06:05:53 AM
First and Foremost, Beethoven was the greatest composer of the genre. Scriabin and Prokofiev wrote some really cool sonatas. My favourite being Scriabin's Sonata #5. I love listening to Hamelin's Medtner Also I recently heard Bartok's Sonata (written in 1926, I think) performed, I quite enjoyed it.

Also if you enjoy grand sonatas, check out Hamelin's (I think it was his) performances of the Ives Concord Sonata or Wright's Sonatas... Comparatively unheard, they are a lot of FUN to listen to!

Chelsey

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #30 on: November 21, 2004, 06:12:18 AM
as far as composer who is greatest sonata writer? well i would have put it down as a fact that beethoven is the greatest sonata writer ever to live. Why does this crazy 15 year old teenager think he can declare beethoven as the best sonata writer to ever live? well i have one reason for this...to be a true sonata writer one must write in "sonata form".  Beethoven didnt only write in sonata form (as did mozart haydn and others) but he used unimaginable creativity in his writings. Especially his later sonatas. The thing about beethoven is he also developed over time while writing his sonatas (for most beethoven biographies are separated into three periods of beethovens life) His first sonatas are basically very similar to mozarts and haydns later sonatas yet still add that tid bit of beethoven genius to them. His later sonatas revolutionized the era and basically started the romantic era due to how rebelious they were. Well I dont know if i have really explained myself. Forgive me if you believe I am wrong. I have only been listening to classical music and playing piano for two years. But I do seriously believe that the majority of music historians would declare Beethoven as the greatest sonata writer ever. (I am not saying that I don't like other composers sonatas for liszts sonatas are truely my fav.)

Offline Ludwig Van Rachabji

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #31 on: November 21, 2004, 06:37:52 AM
I personally think that no composer could ever come close to what Beethoven has achieved with his sonatas. Really, it is impossible.
Music... can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable. Leonard Bernstein

Offline Daniel_piano

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #32 on: November 21, 2004, 06:38:50 AM
Quote
Anyway, point is that there were only a few composers who really did the sonata thing -- basically Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Scarlatti... and who else?


Well, they're more than the one you mentioned:
Mendelsohnn, Liszt, Chopin, Clementi, Soler, Kabalevsky, Saint-Saens, Hummel,  Grieg, Cimarosa, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Griffes, Scrijabin, Weber, Field, Cramer, Dussek, MacDowell,  Kuhlau, Ives, Stravinskij, Copland, Chaminade, Hindemith

Daniel
"Sometimes I lie awake at night and ask "Why me?" Then a voice answers "Nothing personal, your name just happened to come up.""

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #33 on: November 21, 2004, 12:47:40 PM
i think scarlatti for baroque, beethoven for classical, and since beethoven - medtner

i say this partially because he composed a greater quantity than prokofiev, scriabin, rach etc.

Offline Sketchee

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #34 on: November 21, 2004, 01:51:57 PM
I would say Prokofiev, and Ravel. Ravel, you ask? He didn't write any sonatas! Well, you are somewhat right there. However, he did compose a piece that is basically in a perfect form of a sonata, that piece being none other than the notorious Gaspard de la Nuit! Think about it. Ondine, fast, but not too much. Le Gibet, slow and lyrical. Scarbo, fast, scherzo-like, crazy!
if gaspard de la nuit is considered a sonata ...then so are most symphonies, piano concertos, quartets, etc. for they are usually written in sonata form

True.  Ravel's Sonatine can count, but it' not going to hold up to the other sonatas mentioned here.

I'll be the 143rd person to say Beethoven. Liszt's Bminor is an amazing evolution of the Sonata.  The other composers mentioned have music that shouldn't be missed as well.   The looseness and versatility of form is somethin we saw in Beethoven's "Sonate quasi una fantasia" pieces, too.  He worked well in strict and loose form, and each Sonata has it's own character while still maintaining the distinct voice of the composer.
Sketchee
https://www.sketchee.com [Paintings. Music.]

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #35 on: November 21, 2004, 08:10:00 PM
I personally think that no composer could ever come close to what Beethoven has achieved with his sonatas. Really, it is impossible.
true you would have to write beethovens 32 sonatas all over again...backwards too
by the way my oxford music dictionary says he wrote 36 sonatas (4 juvinile ones) has any1 heard them?

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #36 on: November 21, 2004, 08:14:20 PM
Quote
Anyway, point is that there were only a few composers who really did the sonata thing -- basically Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Scarlatti... and who else?


Well, they're more than the one you mentioned:
Mendelsohnn, Liszt, Chopin, Clementi, Soler, Kabalevsky, Saint-Saens, Hummel,  Grieg, Cimarosa, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Griffes, Scrijabin, Weber, Field, Cramer, Dussek, MacDowell,  Kuhlau, Ives, Stravinskij, Copland, Chaminade, Hindemith

Daniel
he means composers who really wrote in sonata form
by the way i believe ravels sonatine does match up to the other sonatas already mentioned. It's is probably the biggest sonatine ever written (biggest small sonata  ;D) and it is written in sonata form  :o 8)

Offline Daniel_piano

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #37 on: November 21, 2004, 08:23:34 PM
Quote
Anyway, point is that there were only a few composers who really did the sonata thing -- basically Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert... Scarlatti... and who else?


Well, they're more than the one you mentioned:
Mendelsohnn, Liszt, Chopin, Clementi, Soler, Kabalevsky, Saint-Saens, Hummel,  Grieg, Cimarosa, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Griffes, Scrijabin, Weber, Field, Cramer, Dussek, MacDowell,  Kuhlau, Ives, Stravinskij, Copland, Chaminade, Hindemith

Daniel
he means composers who really wrote in sonata form

Yes, all the composers I've mentioned wrote in sonata form with three movements

Daniel
"Sometimes I lie awake at night and ask "Why me?" Then a voice answers "Nothing personal, your name just happened to come up.""

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #38 on: November 21, 2004, 08:30:06 PM
oh ok thanx for that....i learned something new
i had no clue they wrote in sonata form

Offline zemos

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #39 on: November 21, 2004, 09:18:49 PM
the greatest piano sonatas ever written were definitely beethoven's and schubert's. i can't compare, but they're in the first place imo...
Too bad schubert didn't write any piano concertos...

Offline Daniel_piano

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #40 on: November 21, 2004, 10:22:35 PM
the greatest piano sonatas ever written were definitely beethoven's and schubert's. i can't compare, but they're in the first place imo...

I think we just can't say "who wrote the best piano sonatas" because it's not that fair comparing sonatas from different period, so that eventually by judging the sonatas from the period one loves we're not judging them but their style hence the period instead of the sonata itself

So imo a better way to rephrase this question would be:
1) Who has written the best piano sonatas in the baroque period?
2) Who has written the best piano sonatas in the classical period?
3) Who has written the best piano sonatas in the romantic period?
4) Who has written the best piano sonatas in the post-romantic period?
5) Who has written the best piano sonatas in the modern period?

Now that would result in a better "sonata opinion" instead of a "period opinion"

Daniel
"Sometimes I lie awake at night and ask "Why me?" Then a voice answers "Nothing personal, your name just happened to come up.""

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #41 on: November 22, 2004, 12:40:22 AM
the baroque period undoubtedly goes to scarlatti, beethoven i think of as classical - so he takes that.

medtner is late/post romantic, the other eras i will have to think about more

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #42 on: November 22, 2004, 02:30:37 AM
i feel bad  :(  :-[ iv never heard a medtner sonata in my life

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #43 on: November 22, 2004, 02:34:51 AM
buy the hamelin recordings - you will treasure them

but beware - they take time to sink in

Offline rachlisztchopin

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #44 on: November 22, 2004, 03:40:08 AM
ok thanx

Offline Ludwig Van Rachabji

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #45 on: November 22, 2004, 03:47:51 AM
I have Arrau's recording. The quality is a bit old, but otherwise, I love the CD.


Ludwig Van Rachabji
Music... can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable. Leonard Bernstein

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #46 on: November 22, 2004, 03:53:50 AM
I have Arrau's recording. The quality is a bit old, but otherwise, I love the CD.


Ludwig Van Rachabji

arrau's recording of what?

Offline Ludwig Van Rachabji

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #47 on: November 22, 2004, 03:56:31 AM
Of the Beethoven sonatas.
Music... can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable. Leonard Bernstein

Offline julie391

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #48 on: November 22, 2004, 04:01:18 AM
i was going to say, id love to hear his, or any other 'golden age' pianist's medtner

Offline Ludwig Van Rachabji

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Re: IYO, who has written the greatest piano sonatas?
Reply #49 on: November 22, 2004, 04:05:23 AM
Haha, yes, I was still on another topic. That would be interesting to say the least, however.

Ludwig Van Rachabji
Music... can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable. Leonard Bernstein
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