Showing off for students?

[mcdiddy1]

Do you think it is a good idea to show off for students in order for them to see you know what you are talking about ? I came across a documentary on Beethoven and saw this clip and thought about it how demoralized this student appeared. What do you think?

[aeriec]

I think it really depends on how you frame it.

Showing off can either inspire a student ("you too can do this if you keep practicing diligently"), or demoralize them ("you're terrible, you'll never be this good no matter how hard you try").

Obviously the latter of these is not very helpful for a student's morale in any case.

If you're showing off for a student, it should always come from the first place (inspiration), and you should always make it clear to them that it is possible for them to become as good as you if they continue to practice. Even if you have a snarky student who is challenging your knowledge or skill, you shouldn't just show off to "put them in their place" so to speak.

It's like any teaching tool, really; it has its uses, and it can be harmful if abused/misused.

[keypeg]

There is something personal and creative about playing, and I think I felt that way about it as a child too.  If a teacher shows his stuff, what sense of achievement can the student get from his efforts?  It is not exactly true that if you are diligent you will be able to play as well -- not this month or this year.  The teacher's playing is the result of a whole pile of different skills coming together that he developed over years.  The student has to follow the same path and get those same skills, and then eventually he'll know how to play like that.  But he has to aim for the skills, not the wonderful piece.  If his teacher is trying to get him to develop an even tone, learn to read notes, recognize chords to play them without hesitation - that's what he has to aim for in his practice.  Then eventually he has his own paintbox with which to paint.  We can easily be led astray aiming for the results, (and fail), rather than the means to the results.

I have always been uncomfortable with this idea of emulation or shiny example.  Each musician develops his own voice, but it will reflect a lot from his teacher(s).

I think however if a teacher shows what you can with the piece, and what you can bring out with the different skills you're learning, then it is a whole different thing.

About the clip: I think it's about attitude.  The Beethoven character is not interested in this student.  He is teaching her because he has to, he likes playing music and gets absorbed in what he actually enjoys.  He is not demonstrating what he can do in order to inspire her.  He's ignoring her because she doesn't matter.  That is not lost on the young woman.  She hoped to be helped and he does not help her.  The narrative makes it clear.  I think attitude matters a great deal.

[quantum]

I've studied under a number of concert pianists, and absolutely loved it when they would show off their stuff.  There is a lot that can be gleamed from listening to music, rather than trying to verbally articulate the infinite nuances of an art. 

A agree with keypeg, as attitude is really an important factor.  In my experiences, it wasn't about "I am so much better than you, here is what I can do."  Rather, it was more about exploring possibilities and encouraging detailed observational skills. 

[lostinidlewonder]

We had a similar discussion last year here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38790.0

Personally I think it is good to play for your student and to show them impressive music if they ask for it. It is also good to play their pieces for them so they can get an overall idea of what it should sound like when mastered. We do however have to be careful with certain students who may in fact start thinking less of themselves or that mastery is a distant dream when they see it done with such effortlessness by someone else.

[vandermozart3]

I think that one of the best opportunities a teacher has to "show off" to a student is when they have just been given a new piece. For example, the teacher gives the student the music and says "well, this is what it sounds like" and then plays it fully.
(This is just in addition to what the others have been saying)

[lukebar]

My college piano teacher would play my pieces through for me, and I loved it.  He would say, "It's not that you have to play this exactly as I do. Of course, if you can, you're doing pretty damn well!"

It is important that our students hear us play, at least a little bit, at every lesson.

[go12_3]

I don't feel that a teacher "shows off".  It depends upon the piece the student is learning and the teachers needs to play a section of the piece to  show what it ought to sound.    I would play a part of a piece.  It's not showing off, it's showing how my student should  play a passage.  It's like
"this is how you play it."  Also, it depends upon the student's level. 

[chopinspride]

Hi,

I just want to make it clear that I am a student, and so hopefully I can give another side to this story. Personally, I would jump at the chance to see my teacher at a concert or something like that, but I think that playing a whole piece for a pupil is wasting their lesson time. Demonstrations are good however. My teaching room has two pianos in it, and so my teacher will demonstrate a passage for me. Others may think diffirently, and I sure it inspires and demoralizes some students, but I think playing "Mazeppa" at the start of a lesson really wastes a pupil's time.

Thank you,

[mike_lang]

I don't feel that a teacher "shows off".  It depends upon the piece the student is learning and the teachers needs to play a section of the piece to  show what it ought to sound.    I would play a part of a piece.  It's not showing off, it's showing how my student should  play a passage.  It's like
"this is how you play it."  Also, it depends upon the student's level. 

Yes -- perhaps it would be better to substitute the word "demonstrate?"

[go12_3]

Yes -- perhaps it would be better to substitute the word "demonstrate?"

Indeed, thank you for enlightening me with the word  "demonstrate"   

[mike_lang]

Indeed, thank you for enlightening me with the word  "demonstrate"   

I was actually simply agreeing with you, and using your post as a basis upon which to suggest the change of language to the original poster :-)

[go12_3]

I was actually simply agreeing with you, and using your post as a basis upon which to suggest the change of language to the original poster :-)

 I appreciate what you suggested (the word) and your agreement upon my post.  Thank you.  (: 

[mcdiddy1]

Well yea "showing off " is a bit subjective. I just saw the clip and felt this kind of playing blurs the line between demonstrating how to perform a passage and basiclly proving how superior a young Beethoven is to his student.  It made me wonder if people avoid demonstrating altogether for this very reason.

[dancingkeys]

I think it depends on the circumstances, as to how "showing off/demonstrating" will make the student feel.

At my very first ever lesson, I asked the teacher if she would play something for me to inspire me to learn.   Without a word, she rose up from the banged up Yamaha upright, led me into another room, where she uncloaked her Kimball grand.  She played a Chopin waltz for me (sadly at the time my knowledge of classical pieces was not developed enough to know which one) so beautifully.  I really was inspired and just awestruck.

Many years later, and with a new teacher, I sometimes find it demoralizing when he dashes off a piece so effortlessly, which I have been struggling just to sight read.  And other times, he'll play something for me, which just takes my breath away, and I feel so lucky to have him for a teacher.

[danhuyle]

You can show off just to show them why they need to do something.

E.g. using a metronome and counting. I tell my students that I still do it and I play a piece like Chopin Etude Op10/4 to demostrate it. Maybe play the first 8 bars.

Playing scales - Plenty of scales and arpeggios in pieces you can name. That'll show'em a thing or two about the basics.

It's to give them a reason for doing it. Most students just need direction and the most important thing is they trust you.

[dcstudio]

Tough one!   I have problems with this one--it seems the more I try to demonstrate that I know what I'm doing, the more my students tell --me they can't do what I'm trying to teach them.  I have spoken with my students recently on this subject.  I have found that from the moment they walk in my room, they pretty much equate me with Beethoven--before I ever even try to play for them.  If I decide to "show them what I can do" -- I must do it very carefully, so I can convince them they CAN do this if they just try. 

Showing off--for me-- has never worked out well--but I've done my share of it over the years.
Demonstrating, supporting, encouragement yields far better results, for me anyway.

[lukebar]

Most people would agree that, over the decades, the technical proficiency of pianists has increased. I would venture to say that we have many more individuals playing at a virtuoso level in this day and age than ever before in history. A lot of this has to do with the wide availability of great recordings.

If you don't have someone demonstrating for you what is capable, you are often limited by your own present level abilities. We've all had moments when we've heard a performance or recording that reshaped our idea of a piece, or even of music in general. Has anyone else experienced the phenomena of going to an outstanding recital and coming home to practice and finding their own playing completely transformed (albeit, often times temporarily). When we hear great musicians, our knowledge of what music making CAN be is expanded. And it is actually easier to reach those heights when our mind's ear is no longer limited by what we've been hearing ourselves pound out in the practice room for weeks.

Now, the truly great, the genii, are able to transcend their own abilities merely through the creative power of their own imaginations. I suspect our students might need a little more inspiration.

If students are feeling depressed because they can't already do something as wonderful as they perceive their teacher to be able to do it...they're kind of missing the point of why they are there. Would they rather go find a teacher who plays at about their same level, or maybe just a little bit better? Their ego might benefit, but it wouldn't do much for their playing.

As long as the teacher isn't being condescending, demonstrating for a student in the lesson is an important part of their musical education. Students who have a problem with it are going to need to learn this lesson sooner or later. We truly grow only when we surround ourselves with people who know a little more than we do, who have experienced a little more than we have, and, in this case, who play better than we do.

[cjp_piano]

Everything depends on the individual situation. There's a time and a place for everything. A good teacher can tell when it's appropriate to demonstrate a section or entire piece.

Sometimes my students want me to "show off." In group classes sometimes they say, "Play something really fast and hard for us!!"

[DeusExMachina]

I suppose it's possible for a teacher to demoraliaze a student by playing for them. But, I would think this is rare. There are abusive teachers, however, I don't think that applies here for this question.

For the most part, it is the students position to be in a state of mind that they are there to learn. It is inappropriately sensitive to take the teachers playing personally. I also have been fortunate to study with teachers who were phenomenal performers; that's why I studied with them. There is nothing they could play, or have any reason that would make me less than thrilled to here them play. Chopin and Beethoven always demonstrated for their students, and not always to make the student feel good. If I were studying with either of them, my attitude would be "Yes, Sir!!". Not, poor me. When I took swimming lessons, I was not to good at it. I felt awful. But, I knew that everyone else had to carry on anyway. Did I resent my teachers demonstration of a perfect dive? Of course not. What would a person so sensitive do in a master class? There, one not only has to listen to everyone play their best, but everyone, including other teachers there, get to critique your playing, going around a circle. Weekly. What do you think all these students do? They cope. It's the only way to survive in a performance oriented occupation such as playing an instrument.

Have you ever played or sung in an ensemble? You will be called out and corrected in front of everyone if you have something wrong. That's just the way it is.

If the student's self esteem is so low that they feel they have a right to compare themselves with the teacher, then they are going to have a rough time of it, and not just in music. Piano playing is performing, and it is not healthy to imagine oneself deserving to be handled with kid gloves. This is simply immature.

I am a teacher, and I play regularly for my students and I play their pieces for them sometimes. Most students smile eagerly when I step around to the bench. Do you think I should stop doing this if a student looks sad or defeateded because of this? No, because it's all part of growing up.

I felt that this needed to be said bluntly because it is dangerous to try to control educators in this way. One day, the student may find themselves in the role of teacher. I would hope they will then see how childish it was to feel slighted by a good performance.

Learn! Be happy that your there! Don't take things so personally. I really find this to be a personality issue more than anything. Smile!

[kellyc]

So much depends on the development of the student and what the teacher is trying to show them. A beginner or intermediate student might need to be shown how to execute a technical movement in a more efficient way, but an advanced student might need to be shown a different artistic interpretation of a given passage.

If the piece is not we'll known to the student the teacher might want to play it for them, to give them a clear goal in there mind on what there shooting for. This is of course based on the piece in question being within the students abilities within a reasonable length of time.  Showing how to play a Chopin etude to a first year student is a waste of time. 

Finally it is not so much a question of demoralizing a student when you play for them as it is accomplishing something positive and conveying some useful information to that student.

Kelly

[DeusExMachina]

How true, Kelly.

I believe it is very important for all students to have exposure to good piano playing. In our current modern times, there are far few opportunities for students of all levels to hear and observe a pianist.

I play for my students so that they can listen, on a regular basis, to virtuoso playing. I also play easier pieces, but you know how it depends on the skill of the player, not the level of the piece to make it beautiful.

Why should students have to wait to get into college before someone makes them listen to performances? All students should be exposed to advanced-professional level playing all their lives. It is convenient for them to watch the teacher, and intimate as the teacher can answer questions, play it again, etc.

I know many teachers that perform at their students recitals. This is a good thing. If the piece happens to be stunning in it's virtuosity, then so be it. It is extremely negative to view seeing a virtuosic performance as anything other than wonderful. Healthy individuals will find this motivating, not threatening. Besides, the students do not decide such things. It's just backwards to allow an emotional student to have his/her way in any context during lessons. You will soon encourage a situation where this person believes that the world revolves around them. It doesn't, and it's not fair to the student to allow them this control as they will learn that music life just doesn't work that way. Actually, I find is a bit creepy to think that this sort of passive-aggressive behavior is tolerated. Students may try to gain the upper hand in subtle ways. I think this is one of them.

If the teacher acts like playing is to be expected then a student should develop a natural love for all music, not just that which they can play.

I was lucky to grow up being in musical circles where performing was part of the whole experience. Why should performance ever be viewed negatively? I am sure it made me a much stronger performer as a result, and I never had a single bad feeling toward my teacher or any of her students when they played their best. I knew that sulking over it was a bad thing, and I am forever grateful for learning my place in the structure of things.

[Bob]

The video clip really doesn't look like teaching.  More of a demonstration (which could be "teaching" yes, but the student isn't doing anything and it doesn't have to be done by an actual teacher.)  And it's glitzed up for a documentary.  (I was thinking it might be that she doesn't have the technique, or it might be that it's implying she's "not the one" for him and he's dismissing her.

Interesting though that people may not have understood how that was supposed to sound -- It was new.  No one could go find a recording of it. 

It's hard to tell in the clip though about her technique.  She might lack that -- which makes me wonder if she should play the piece.  She probably wouldn't perform it, but could use it to build some technique.  Or it could be a reading issue -- Maybe she's got the technique but doesn't quite understand what she's looking at.

[m1469]

Actually, her playing sounded a lot like somebody intentionally trying to sound like they don't know what they're doing.  haha, sorry, but that clip was dramatically/theatrically slightly hilarious.  Besides, Ludwig wasn't just in some state of patiently demonstrating something, he pretty much lost his temper and got caught up in his own passions and his own world and didn't care about her, that was actually demonstrated in the clip, and if you want to relate it to the topic at-hand, would be a good time to NOT "demonstrate" for a student, if it's not for their sake but rather for your own. 

Anyhoo, I really have nothing new to add to this conversation since we had the last one that LIW posted a link to.  I will add though, that I love, LOVE my teachers' playing. 

 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 V

[pianoplayjl]

My teacher usually demonstrates the parts he 's talking about and I usually get the point.