how deep do the hoaxes go?

[Derek]

Sometimes I've pondered just how deep the hoaxes on this site go. I've noticed some patterns that crop up now and then, but under different handles, which make me feel there's a possibility that one person is actually many on this site. Am I the only one who feels this way? Just for the record, it can't be me; I'm too busy with work, making an NES game for fun, playing piano, improvising, and family to have enough time to perpetrate a hoax like that. If I had enough spare time, I'd try to deduce exactly which handles are in fact the same person. Why? I dunno, for fun I suppose.

One way that occurred to me that such a hoaxter gets attention is, with multiple handles, he can create the illusion that more than one member gives a damn about this that or the other thing. It exploits a psychological flaw in human nature: "other people care, so I think I ought to as well." If we knew they were all the same person, we'd laugh and probably ignore it. Maybe the last three digits of a person's ip address ought to be displayed to signed in members or something---of course collisions could occur, but it may help dissuade this sort of behavior. Of course, a clever enough person could probably even get around that...oh well.

[Bob]

That whacky Nils... Making hoaxes and other users to fall for and uncover the hoaxes... All that time on his hands.

I don't think there's a way to defend against it much.  Not without a lot more work on Nils's part or the poster's part, although someone could always prove a little more about themself if they wanted to put in the work. 

Someone will just change their ip address or post from someplace else.  Different ip address.

The more people hoax, the more it's going to be ignored.  If/when it happens again, it won't be given as much attention.

[Derek]

I don't just mean fake recordings. I mean multiple handles having conversations with themselves, all written by the same person.

[lostinidlewonder]

One way that occurred to me that such a hoaxter gets attention is, with multiple handles, he can create the illusion that more than one member gives a damn about this that or the other thing

Yep I have seen this on pianostreet in multiple threads. You can tell that they are the same people responding to their own threads because if you look at the pattern of which threads they have responded to they are constantly responding to each other. Either that or the responder has such few posts one wonders why they started to post responding to useless posts.

If you don't want to investigate so far all you have to do is look at the content of what is being talked about. When you find one poster type something empty of REAL knowledge then someone responding to it like it was something amazing, this is an obviously weak attempt at one person talking with themselves with multiple accounts.

The funny thing is that these fraudsters are only impressing themselves, and they are so stupid to think that EVERYONE is being fooled by them. I make it a habit to ignore these morons and only ever ravage them if they try to quote me. Beat them to a bloody mess

[Derek]

I think it would be nice if this were made impossible, or at least inconvenient and difficult. It's like our piano street has litter all over it. It'd be nice if we could clean it up, and all that would be left would be pianists, students, teachers, sincere amateurs. Occasional silliness and maybe a friendly prank every now and then, big deal. But dozens of handles talking to themselves, hoaxes, mountains of pointless remarks, it is just annoying. It makes me wonder what sort of person spends time doing this sort of thing.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is a shame that a lot of great members from the past have vanished and we have certain individuals who come here to use pianoforum for purposes other than sharing USEFUL information.

Pianostreet has always been a place to store some of my ideas musical and otherwise, I really couldn't be bothered what other people write sometimes but it does get boring when I return to the forum after a few days and notice nothing interesting has been posted :|

I know a few members who have joined this year where BANNED from other forums for their arguing and hoaxes, yet they have remained here. It doesn't really matter and it is hilarious to watch how their personas change overtime online, almost as if they are like, "ah i must change this little bit to become more convincing". I have prodded at all of these users with serious questions at least once and unfortunately there IS NOT a very intelligent mind behind those usernames, at least not one that knows much about piano.

I would actually like an IGNORE function so you could add usernames and ALL posts from those users are blocked or require a manual click to open. That would reduce the amount of garbage for sure. It is difficult to control who posts and who doesn't, those rules are difficult to enforce, but at least we should have the ability to filter for ourselves what we want to be subjected to.

[Derek]

That's a great idea. I feel like I posted a similar suggestion just the other day, or started to and didn't sumbit it.

Yeah, actually I remember now, I suggested that we have the ability to individually ignore members whose posts we never like. If enough people have ignored that member, they could be notified automatically that few people are reading their posts. It could say something like:

"Your last 100 posts have been read by a total of (1) person. Are you sure you are on the right forum?"

The post was here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=43697.msg477441#msg477441

I think I was suggesting up and down votes for members. But I like your "ignore" function idea, it is simpler.

It'd be fun to see what would happen. If almost everyone ignored the obvious hoaxes and conversations, it'd be like a crazy person suddenly alone in a room talking to himself. And he couldn't even be sure if he was really alone, except he might get the picture as fewer and fewer people participate in his threads.

[Bob]

I don't just mean fake recordings. I mean multiple handles having conversations with themselves, all written by the same person.

That probably goes on.  That would be a lot of work though.  I just ignore them and they'll probably go away.

[Derek]

If there were a function as lostinidlewonder described, "ignoring" would basically mean that anyone who does not wish to read posts by a given member could sanitize the site for themselves. A sufficiently large number of ignores heaped on a given member could produce an automatic notification. That way, the member in question would have the option of either

1) leaving the site entirely
2) deciding to post when they have something to say
3) learning about piano music so they do not appear to be an idiot

In fact, I think if I were running things I'd go so far as to say that if a member gets ignored enough times, their name AND all of their posts would simply get deleted (or at least hidden in a semi permanent way even to members who have not chosen to ignore a given member). The ignore function should probably only be available to users that have survived a long enough time that they are established and almost never ignored because they post interesting, useful or entertaining posts.

I'm hoping that such a function wouldn't mean that members with alternative viewpoints would suffer, though. It's kind of a tricky thing. Overly judgemental members could cause damage with an "ignore" function, as it might turn the site into a boring place with only "accepted" thoughts on things.

Perhaps it could be tried in an experimental way---and something as drastic as automatically deleting members and posts wouldn't be the first thing implemented, just the automatic notification.

Either way---it would allow people to filter the spam. That's really what it is, a spam filter for a thoughtful forum.

Idea....once someone is ignored enough times, they would not be prevented from continuing to post, but their name would be labelled "suspected spammer (ignored 1000 times)" underneath their handle.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yep I have seen this on pianostreet in multiple threads. You can tell that they are the same people responding to their own threads because if you look at the pattern of which threads they have responded to they are constantly responding to each other. Either that or the responder has such few posts one wonders why they started to post responding to useless posts.

Could you give examples?

[Derek]

Could you give examples?

Why would you or anyone want examples....unless... 

[nyiregyhazi]

Why would you or anyone want examples....unless... 

Well, just wondering. I've never noticed anything that immediately made me think someone was secretly having a conversation with themself. I'm 90% sure this opium guy is the same crank from before though. If not, the details of his paranoia are astoundingly similar.

[emill]

I think it would be nice if this were made impossible, or at least inconvenient and difficult. It's like our piano street has litter all over it. It'd be nice if we could clean it up, and all that would be left would be pianists, students, teachers, sincere amateurs. xxxxxx......

Please include the parents of pianists and/or lovers of classical music ... classical piano.

YES ... some posts are highly suspicious even for the non-pianist.  Another aspect which needs some reform or cleaning up would be the monotonous, annoyingly interminable arguments over trivial and silly topics/comments which at the least causes fear in the new or uninitiated members and creates a "bad reputation" for PS.  Oh well !!!

edit:  My I missed something!!! Haven't been to this forum for a while.  I noticed that the posts of KellyC have all been deleted and locked.... just the way it went with Ladypianist.  She?? he?? was beginning to reap praises for the way she was playing and contributed actively to "teaching" and advising posters.  I hate it as she gave advice to my son ENZO regarding some of the pieces we posted and we appreciated it much.... just the way ladypianist did.  I can almost say with confidence that they are the SAME person and that she?? he?? will be BACK soon!!

How can you possibly ignore persons as suggested above, who seem very knowledgeable??  Another sad day in PS.

[Bob]

The ignore idea would be quiet.  I was thinking a hoaxer would just start making even more personalities, but they wouldn't know they were being ignored.  Although the more personalities they make, the more obvious it would be for Nils to spot them. 

I don't think Nils is going to spend much time playing detective though.  If enough people complain about something, that's when he's more likely to do something.  Except he doesn't always announce that he's done anything.  I'm not sure that's the best way, responding to the masses, but I think that's what happens.

[fleetfingers]

Well, I think that it's natural for certain people to become "friends" on piano street, and they end up responding to each other's posts all of the time. Enemies do it, too. So, I don't think it's so obvious when two or more users frequently respond to each others posts. There are many who do that, and I have no reason to doubt they are real.

Some of them, like opium/thompson/russ, are very obviously fake. But, who knows? Maybe he is a real schizo. The ones with short posts are often young people, so it's hard to know if they are fake. kellyc was very obvious to me, but only because she sounded just like becky. And becky may not have been so obvious if there wasn't also a ladypianist.

I wonder about the option to hide certiain posts. Then, if it doesn't show posts from that user, but there are responses to their comment, it would be confusing. What about the "like" button idea or enabling the "was this post useful?" button? If a user gets too many "dislikes" or "unusefuls", then nils can investigate.

[wsmith]

Well, I guess you would have to specify what constitutes 'fake'? Using multiple accounts? Using pseudonyms? Typing idiotic posts?

When I joined Piano forum years ago I was a young teen and its obvious that I changed alot from there. Accordingly, I too have had several accounts (and hence slightly different personalities) over the years.
Now, three countries and two continents later, I'm back once again.

[pianoplayjl]

Just because you are typing idiotic posts doesn't mean you are a 'faker', 'hoaxer' or have multiple accounts. Maybe it's an idiotic person posting (like me ). it's jsut a PS publicity stunt when you have conversations with yourself just to attract more people to post or to increase your posts. Despite my rapid increase in posts I swear on my life it is NOT a publicity stunt am I'm sorry for what I do.

For fakers who post fake recordings on this site, maybe if they are once discovered to be scammers then maybe they can be banished temporarily or even permanently if they do it again.

[lostinidlewonder]

You get the haoxers who want people to look at them and be impressed, these type of hoaxers are pretty easy to work out. The more difficult ones are those who appear to ask serious questions but the more they get comfortable getting responses the more they try to push the limitations.

A look through ones history will easily highlight many points of interest. I can understand writing styles very well and when someone says that they are say a mid 50 year old woman and uses slang like a teenager (even slang as a 30 year old I don't use!) you start to put tongue in cheek.
    An adult has a much more developed planning mind (a part of the brain that is developing through our whole life and is undeveloped in children/teenagers/young adults) it is easy to see the lack of planning in young hoaxsters who pretend to be older people. You see lack of planning in covering their stories, so when we go back and read through their history we start to see all these holes and inconsistiencies. You also when you read about how they do things in life, it highlights the mentality of someone much younger. I could point twenty plus points on each hoaxster that comes in, but in the end I type pages for no reason and it will only get removed and I get a warning from admins. So the majority of hoaxsters are younger people, although I have come across some older ones which is very sad, for them.

When hoaxsters start to describe a made up event that happened to them, it often highlights the imagination of someone much younger. The thought processes and what is focused on indirectly reveal to us the type of person that is hiding behind the computer.

So hoaxsters you need to pretened to be someone your age and your sex and from your cultural background, then you might be able to be more convincing. Oh, but yes, that limits the "role-playing" in an online forum.

Most of us treat pianostreet as a place to share knowledge and we merely be ourselves. There are however those who have nothing very interesting to contribute, so they then create personas that fufils their need for appreciation/attention from others. A psychologist would have a lot of material to draw study from on an internet forum!!

[ted]

I knew one "great pretender" personally and another, rather famous one, through a relation of his. At the core of their personality, reality just isn't exciting enough for them and they prefer their fantasies. The two I knew both had serious problems with alcohol and other addictions, but psychiatric treatment did not work; probably because there was nothing wrong with their ability to function perfectly well in society to the degree they wished, whenever they wished. They very rarely deceived for material or personal gain, just for the satisfaction of perpetrating the deceit itself.

The ones on this forum may or may not be affected to that extent, probably not I would say, and more in the nature of simply playing tricks.

[fftransform]

Just for the record, it can't be me; I'm too busy with work, making an NES game for fun, playing piano, improvising, and family to have enough time to perpetrate a hoax like that. If I had enough spare time, I'd try to deduce exactly which handles are in fact the same person. Why? I dunno, for fun I suppose.

Don't forget that you're just so smart, awesome, and skilled in such a variety of important fields there is no chance that more than one person would ever be as intelligent/crazy as you.  Crazy like a fox, of course.  Not crazy like, "what, is that narcissism, paranoia, or both?!?"

The fact that this thread has any responses is proof that no such "hoax" exists; the average IQ of the membership of this forum is too low to perpetrate anything more complicated than tying one's shoes.

[fleetfingers]

the average IQ of the membership of this forum is too low to perpetrate anything more complicated than tying one's shoes.

Ouch. 

The fact that this thread has any responses is proof that no such "hoax" exists

You probably haven't been around long enough, but the reason for this thread is that there was such a hoax. About a year ago, one person created 3 personalities (that we know of) who each told some interesting stories: a pre-teen who learned and performed a concerto in less than a month, an elderly woman who had played in the same Chopin competition as Martha Argerich, and an older gentleman who played nothing but Hanon for a year before magically pulling off Beethoven Pathetique to technical and musical perfection. For a few months, the stories went on, the personalities interacted with each other and became quite popular on the forum. They even posted recordings of other people, claiming them as their own - always amazing performances that received much praise in the audition room. Supposedly, that person was banned, but then kellyc recently appeared, and it was obvious to many that the hoaxster was back. All that is being discussed here is whether or not there are other users who could be doing the same thing - or if the hoaxster still has other personalities not yet exposed - or if there is a long-time user of piano street who is playing a game with the rest of us. It does cause a bit of paranoia when you consider that the people you're conversing with online could possibly be trying to fool you. But only a bit; I still enjoy reading posts from many users here.

[fftransform]

You probably haven't been around long enough, but the reason for this thread is that there was such a hoax. About a year ago, one person created 3 personalities (that we know of) who each told some interesting stories: a pre-teen who learned and performed a concerto in less than a month, an elderly woman who had played in the same Chopin competition as Martha Argerich, and an older gentleman who played nothing but Hanon for a year before magically pulling off Beethoven Pathetique to technical and musical perfection. For a few months, the stories went on, the personalities interacted with each other and became quite popular on the forum. They even posted recordings of other people, claiming them as their own - always amazing performances that received much praise in the audition room. Supposedly, that person was banned, but then kellyc recently appeared, and it was obvious to many that the hoaxster was back. All that is being discussed here is whether or not there are other users who could be doing the same thing - or if the hoaxster still has other personalities not yet exposed - or if there is a long-time user of piano street who is playing a game with the rest of us. It does cause a bit of paranoia when you consider that the people you're conversing with online could possibly be trying to fool you. But only a bit; I still enjoy reading posts from many users here.

Excluding Bob, I have been on this site longer than anyone who has posted in this thread.  The tone of this thread is ridiculous, and belongs in an Oliver Stone movie, not in the real world (that necessarily excludes one perceived and induced by schizophrenia).  If somebody has a legitimate suspicion, it should be reported.  If somebody is just posturing, as I assume the case is in this thread, and has no rationale behind their claims, then, by definition, they are being irrational, and other people should not be so willing to get sucked into it.  In either case, this thread is pointless, useless and obnoxious.

[birba]

Am I the only one thinking of a multiple-personality 5-letter member?  To me, it's SO obvious. 

[pianoplayjl]

Am I the only one thinking of a multiple-personality 5-letter member?  To me, it's SO obvious. 

What are your suspicions, who is it?

[fleetfingers]

Excluding Bob, I have been on this site longer than anyone who has posted in this thread.  The tone of this thread is ridiculous, and belongs in an Oliver Stone movie, not in the real world (that necessarily excludes one perceived and induced by schizophrenia).  If somebody has a legitimate suspicion, it should be reported.  If somebody is just posturing, as I assume the case is in this thread, and has no rationale behind their claims, then, by definition, they are being irrational, and other people should not be so willing to get sucked into it.  In either case, this thread is pointless, useless and obnoxious.

Really? Your profile says that you registered in July. Maybe you were a lurker for years or had another profile set up previously?

I agree that legimate suspicions should be reported, but I don't see why it is obnoxious to wonder, along with other users of the forum, if there are other hoaxes or if the preexisting hoax runs deeper than we know.

[go12_3]

I am an active member in an art forum, and in that forum(which is huge)you visit the users' profile pages and there you can get an actual idea if that member is a hoax or not.  I've learned to ignore them.  The comments are about the artwork and photos in the forum.  Eventually members do get to know one another through their activity and viewing their works that they submit.  I do a lot of drawings and members have come to know me and my works there. I have a hard time in this forum because I only read the posts here and  listen to the pieces being played by members in PS.  I feel that being in this forum is a catch all for anyone to enter and those that want to contribute by uttering some nonsense, then that's their call.  I don't have the time to analyze each and every post here because I have a real life.  I stop by here to check out the posts that interests me.   

[nyiregyhazi]

Excluding Bob, I have been on this site longer than anyone who has posted in this thread.  The tone of this thread is ridiculous, and belongs in an Oliver Stone movie, not in the real world (that necessarily excludes one perceived and induced by schizophrenia).  If somebody has a legitimate suspicion, it should be reported.  If somebody is just posturing, as I assume the case is in this thread, and has no rationale behind their claims, then, by definition, they are being irrational, and other people should not be so willing to get sucked into it.  In either case, this thread is pointless, useless and obnoxious.

How about the poster who referred to getting 91 in their ABRSM grade 8 (the pass mark is 100/150) and also referred to level 9 (which does not exist in ABRSM)? Makes me rather suspicious. They also referred to "majoring" in a degree- a term which is not used in the UK, where ABRSM exams primarily reside. If realising that internet forum users frequently make up nonsense is irrational, what is writing off the possibility that anyone would make up nonsense?

[pianoplayjl]

How about the poster who referred to getting 91 in their ABRSM grade 8 (the pass mark is 100/150) and also referred to level 9 (which does not exist in ABRSM)? Makes me rather suspicious. They also referred to "majoring" in a degree- a term which is not used in the UK, where ABRSM exams primarily reside. If realising that internet forum users frequently make up nonsense is irrational, what is writing off the possibility that anyone would make up nonsense?

Now that you mention it clearly there is something fishy going on. Probably they are refering level 9 as the associate diploma. Maybe they are in another exam board but put ABRSM so that everybody could understand.
Hoaxes are inevitable in forums so it is almost impossible to stop them from doing in again because they might reappear as another personality.

JL

[pianowolfi]

Am I the only one thinking of a multiple-personality 5-letter member?  To me, it's SO obvious.  

I think most of these unnecessary suspicions weren't there before that becky-lady-kellyc hoaxter. So if this hoaxter's goal was to seed mistrust among the members of this forum, he/she was quite successful, I guess.

[nyiregyhazi]

Now that you mention it clearly there is something fishy going on. Probably they are refering level 9 as the associate diploma. Maybe they are in another exam board but put ABRSM so that everybody could understand.
Hoaxes are inevitable in forums so it is almost impossible to stop them from doing in again because they might reappear as another personality.

JL

I'm not sure but it's odd, to say the least. Nobody refers to level 9 in the ABRSM and 91 would be a fail. Is there another board that marks out of 100?

[pianoplayjl]

Why would the ABRSM mark out of 150? 100 would be more convenient I think. Maybe that guy is refering to percentages he got for the exam? on another note I know  there is a 'grade nine' in Australia called the Certificate of Performance which is not a diploma and is optional.

JL

[Bob]

I wouldn't worry about them too much if Nils isn't.  Annoying sometimes, yes, but a few of them have posted interesting ideas.  It doesn't really matter who posts ideas.

The bigger concern I would have is copyright on the recordings they posted. 

[pianoplayjl]

I'd say that forums must be as clean as possible unless they are very interesting and have a point. I read over kellyc's posts and despite him/her being a hoaxster there were interesting points and lessons that I learnt from it. I drew a conclusion that perhaps he/she has some sort of experience teaching or has a diploma but that's me.

The bigger concern I would have is copyright on the recordings they posted.  

I agree.

JL

[nyiregyhazi]

Why would the ABRSM mark out of 150? 100 would be more convenient I think. Maybe that guy is refering to percentages he got for the exam? on another note I know  there is a 'grade nine' in Australia called the Certificate of Performance which is not a diploma and is optional.

JL

It's not about why they "would". They do mark out of 150. Why would someone refer to it and list a recalculated percentage that nobody uses and not explain? Why not just say "x out of 150"? It sounds like someone who doesn't know the system (and assumed it would be marked out of 100) making up nonsense.

[pianoplayjl]

It's not about why they "would". They do mark out of 150. Why would someone refer to it and list a recalculated percentage that nobody uses and not explain? Why not just say "x out of 150"? It sounds like someone who doesn't know the system (and assumed it would be marked out of 100) making up nonsense.

Dunno. I was only speculating about the nature of them hoaxing because I thought there is a reason behind everything they do. Maybe they don't even play that well the piano but just made something up to get attention and help. 

JL

[jesc]

I'm thinking of uploading some of my performances to be subjected under the scrutiny of the community.

I don't understand the nature of hoaxes with regards to what they want to attain from such a shallow online/internet satisfaction. I'm sure that a lot of professional pianists, people with work etc. here are too busy in real life to do such. I mean I only get such a few moments to "really" participate in this forum.

That aside, most probably this means that a video of me playing would be preferrable to remove such "hoax" suspicions.

Why doesn't the site impose such requirements? A video recording of the user playing the piece? End of story. Unless the person in question is a master CGI from hollywood which I doubt, I mean a person of that calibre would probably spend his time making CGI that produce real money instead.

[Bob]

That's true.

I suppose someone could even have another person play pieces and post that, saying it was themself.

[williampiano]

hoaxes? what? I haven't been on the forum as long as some of you, so can anyone explain what the deal was with this kellyc person, or whoever it is you all keep mentioning?

[pianoplayjl]

I've been here like 2 months but I have a basic idea of the Kellyc hoax. Before the person appeared as Kellyc, the person had 3 different persona and with different stories. the person posted recordings in the audition room. Apparently the recordings were ripped off from others. I think the previous persona were Becky, Lady pianist and Rogers. For a point of reference you can read the 'hoaxes' thread in the miscellaneous board where you can find a more satisfying explanation.

JL