New category/forum for "midi-edited" piano performances

[johnlewisgrant]

The time has arrived.

There are too many "live" contributions arriving that are, to a small or huge extent, midi-edited.  Midi-editing... which I personally am very into... is or can be the antithesis of piano technique.  One of its main purposes, after all, is to correct technical deficiencies.

There has to be a new forum created for this material.  Those who are prepared to be honest about it can put their intepretations there.

Video is universal now on all computers.  So you could sort things out even better by requiring video recordings of all alleged "live" recordings.  

But, at the very least, make it easier for folks who are really only interested in live performances, to listen to just that, and only that, if they wish to.

JG

[quantum]

There are people, including myself, that favor a non-visual listening experience regardless of the type of performance: live, MIDI-edited, fully electronic, or otherwise.  IMO making video a requirement is far too strict a constraint for submitted media to the Audition Room.  This is a piano forum, and we are here to discuss and listen to music.  Music after all is an aural experience.  

Even though video recording devices saturate the consumer market, the accompanying audio recording abilities of such devices are notably lacking, especially with regard to the capture of music.  Such devices are often optimized for speech, as opposed to the highly dynamic and broad frequency spectrum needed for music recording.  To at least get decent sound in the video from such consumer recorders, one would have to invest in additional audio equipment.  

On the other hand, there are many good sound only recorders available suitable for the recording and critical listening of music.  Many of them are in the same budget range one would expect to pay for a compact digital camera.  

For those that wish to contribute music yet are not very tech savvy, an audio only recording presents far fewer complications than that of video.  

[pianoplayjl]

The time has arrived.

There are too many "live" contributions arriving that are, to a small or huge extent, midi-edited.  Midi-editing... which I personally am very into... is or can be the antithesis of piano technique.  One of it's main purposes, after all, is to correct technical deficiencies.

There has to be a new forum created for this material.  Those who are prepared to be honest about it can put there intepretations there.

Video is universal now on all computers.  So you could sort things out even better by requiring video recordings of all alleged "live" recordings.   

But, at the very least, make it easier for folks who are really only interested in live performances, to listen to just that, and only that, if they wish to.

JG

I'm not saying that is a bad idea but that would make the audition room  a lot messier.

[oxy60]

What exactly is midi editing?

BTW, don't quit gambling, quit losing!

[pianoplayjl]

I think MIDI editing is when you play a piece of music and then use some software to edit and improve the quality of the playing and edit out some mistakes. I have no problem with that. LIke another member said, midi editing is just like playing a piece 50 times over so that you get minimal errors.

JL

[ajspiano]

What exactly is midi editing?

BTW, don't quit gambling, quit losing!

When you record in midi you don't record sound, you record computer instructions that are then sent through other software to produce sounds based on the instructions.

The midi data can be edited extensively. You can change notes, change the velocity of notes (loud/soft), change the notes position in time.. Even speed up or slow down the entire performance. .. Add notes you missed..

Once you have made your perfect instruction set you pass it through the other software and it makes all the actual sound.

And it's not the same as playing 50 times to get a good take, because when you played it 50 times, the take you use you did actually play with your hands.

[johnlewisgrant]

Midi technique and piano technique are 2 totally different things.   Midi is, or can be, a gigantic short cut in the analysis and final recording of a piece.

It can be done at the piano, nowadays, with portable devices that you attach to the keyboard; or it can be done through piano samples entirely using a computer.

Really "good" midi can't easily be distinguished from a good recording of a good piano performance.  It's that powerful.

It's ubiquitous; so it needs its own home.   

[pianoplayjl]

 This is a piano forum, and we are here to discuss and listen to music.  Music after all is an aural experience.  

Wow, what an answer. Who cares when people edit their music and use MIDI too? For what I know, might as well ask Beethoven not to edit his music. Maybe people are just editting their music to enhance the audio quality also took the opportunity to take out wrong notes.

JL

[ajspiano]

I don't mind the idea of music being edited and to be listened to from a purely aural perspective.

However, my understanding was/is that the audition room was designed for people to get advice on their physical ability to play a piece of music, and how to bring more/better interpretive elements into their live performance.

Edited music defeats the purpose of this..  I agree that the two should be separated.

[quantum]

Wow, what an answer. Who cares when people edit their music and use MIDI too? For what I know, might as well ask Beethoven not to edit his music. Maybe people are just editting their music to enhance the audio quality also took the opportunity to take out wrong notes.

JL

Not sure how you interpreted that statement.  I have absolutely no problem with edited music, or even music edited on a note-by-note level through MIDI instructions.  Sound remains sound no matter how it was modified or what instructions it was fed to reach the final result. 

[pianoplayjl]

Not sure how you interpreted that statement.  I have absolutely no problem with edited music, or even music edited on a note-by-note level through MIDI instructions.  Sound remains sound no matter how it was modified or what instructions it was fed to reach the final result. 

I was in agreement with ur quoted statement.

JL

[oxy60]

Thanks for the clarification.

My Yamaha keyboard generates a file when I record. I didn't know I could edit that file on my computer. Now I do several takes one behind the other and choose the best to transfer though the headphone jack. On occasion and I have cut and pasted sections from the takes to get a "final" version I like. (As if I were cutting and splicing audio tape "old school.")

This opens up new frontiers...

 

 

[johnlewisgrant]

The following hits the nail on the head...

"I don't mind the idea of music being edited and to be listened to from a purely aural perspective.

However, my understanding was/is that the audition room was designed for people to get advice on their physical ability to play a piece of music, and how to bring more/better interpretive elements into their live performance.

Edited music defeats the purpose of this..  I agree that the two should be separated."

There's still trust involved.   Lot's of folks edit a little or a lot; so it'll be a judgement call on the poster's part.  But the point is, where questions are put about technique at the piano, those questions can be asked at the right forum, in the right context, and a relevant interchange, response, whatever, can be expected.  For example, I don't want to talk about somebody's "great technique" at the piano where a piece has been midi-edited.  If midi, I want to know, maybe, things like "was that quantized?"  "what ssample"  "how much reverb, and which reverb?" etc. etc...

JG

[pianowolfi]

Well imo they fit quite nicely into the "miscellaneous" board

[pianoplayjl]

If there was going to be a board for midi performances I suggest it be a childboard because it is part of the listening experience of the audition room.

JL

[oxy60]

Which software is your favorite for midi editing?

I've got the software for transferring the file to my computer, now I need to choose an editing software for my XP Pro platform.

Thanks!

[Bob]

Are there enough to jusify their own board?

It's probably already on there, but why not just ask users to include something about how they recorded and any editing that was done.

[oxy60]

I wonder if we have any midi edited submissions. My reason above for asking for a software recommendation is that editing midi is very complex. Achieving any fluency is very difficult and time consuming. What I would love to know is which software our midi people are using and how difficult it was to learn.

Thanks!

[perfect_pitch]

I would prefer if the MIDI files were separated into a new board. No offense to those who use it, but our goal as a piano player is to refine our skills in our piano playing.

I find it bizarre that someone may spend weeks or months learning a song, to play it once of twice with mistakes - spend several hours using a computer to eradicate those mistakes, when they could be spending the same amount of time to eradicate their mistakes by practicing a little more.

Take for instance one of the users who used to be on here "s_c_p"... As far as we know, there could be people who play as bad as that, yet spend hours and hours of time fixing up their performances to make them sound rather perfected.

I don't believe that computers should be used to enhance someones playing - especially on a PIANO FORUM. And I don't expect people to be uploading nothing but Grade 8+ pieces with no mistakes, but I do feel insulted with is a piece of music that's been uploaded because it's been edited and no longer remains the result of hard practice and determination to better ones skill.

I seriously do want a new section for midi-edited programs, and those that use sound libraries as well, should be put in the same category. I think it would be insulting not to (but no offense to those who can't afford a proper upright piano, but spend hard work perfecting their pieces on a clavinova/keyboard WITHOUT editing them. )

[pianoplayjl]

In the end it doesn't matter. I guess that new childboard will mostly be fileld by compositions because sometimes the compositions can't be played by the composer.

I doubt NIls is following up this discussion.

JL

[johnlewisgrant]

The MOST PERSUASIVE argument for 2 boards is this: Piano samples are TOO convincing!  Many of them are INDISTINGUISHABLE from the real thing!

As a result, I'm running across more and more discussions here (and elsewhere) about a pianist's "technique" where the work was, to my ears, obviously largely a product of midi editing.

It's getting a little embarrassing.

JG

[perfect_pitch]

The MOST PERSUASIVE argument for 2 boards is this: Piano samples are TOO convincing!  Many of them are INDISTINGUISHABLE from the real thing!

Are you KIDDING ME??? It took me about 10 seconds to recognise that the recordings in the original post were from a software program. I used to toy with them a while back, but only to get a rough idea of how my arrangements would sound when played on a real piano.

There have been many people who have uploaded midi-synthed files in the past year or two, and if you've got a careful ear, you can pick them out rather easily.

It is an interesting point you bring up - some may have trouble distinguishing the difference. This is why I believe it's only fair to have those who go to the trouble to perfect their playing and technique, instead of their MIDI should be able to upload in the Piano forum, and have a sub-category for Midi-edited or synthed files.

[john90]

Are you KIDDING ME??? It took me about 10 seconds to recognise that the recordings in the original post were from a software program. I used to toy with them a while back, but only to get a rough idea of how my arrangements would sound when played on a real piano.

There have been many people who have uploaded midi-synthed files in the past year or two, and if you've got a careful ear, you can pick them out rather easily.

What about fully acoustic reproducing systems? These can play the edited Midi on a proper acoustic piano. Once that is recorded, and listened to on say PC speakers, it is practically impossible to distinguish from unedited midi or live played on the same upright or grand. What if the epianist adds extra *impossible* to play notes to key chords? This could really demoralise an aspiring pianist, unless they know they are competeing against a 22 fingered machine.

[perfect_pitch]

What about fully acoustic reproducing systems?

DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!! But yeah... That would make things impossible to distinguish. We need a new category for midi-edited stuff. I don't want to hear it, so I'd rather it was in a different category so I can avoid it like the plague.

[pianoplayjl]

DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!! But yeah... That would make things impossible to distinguish. We need a new category for midi-edited stuff. I don't want to hear it, so I'd rather it was in a different category so I can avoid it like the plague.

I can put my composition there in MIDI so that I don't have to cause controversy.

JL

[ronde_des_sylphes]

DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS!!! But yeah... That would make things impossible to distinguish. We need a new category for midi-edited stuff. I don't want to hear it, so I'd rather it was in a different category so I can avoid it like the plague.

As much as anything else, it should be about being honest. Passing off midi-edited stuff as your own piano-playing should be viewed as no different to taking a professional recording, "Hatto"ing the tempo and dynamics here and there so that it doesn't match the original, then posting it as your playing. Fundamentally dishonest and an insult to people who actually work at their own playing.

[thorn]

I don't mind the idea of music being edited and to be listened to from a purely aural perspective.

However, my understanding was/is that the audition room was designed for people to get advice on their physical ability to play a piece of music, and how to bring more/better interpretive elements into their live performance.

This.

If someone uploads an unedited recording for advice, then they actually get something from it. The compliments actually mean something, the criticisms constructive.

If someone uploads a fake recording, then compliments are empty. What have they really achieved? A bunch of people on an internet forum whom they will never meet think they're a better player than they are. Pretty meaningless. Any advice/suggestions they get will be limited and not as productive as they could be.

Seriously, chill out. I don't think it's worth the effort and if people are going to lie then they're going to lie, you will still have false recordings filtering into the main audition room.

[oxy60]

Could someone point out a recording in our audition room that was midi edited?

[Bob]

I was wondering that too.

Or is there one that completely built up from nothing, all MIDI no human? I could see tweaking note here and there as being possible, but it sounds like a lot of work to really drastically change a performance.  If it's a really sloppy performance to begin with, is it even possible -- or reasonable -- to edit a crappy performance into something stellar?

[ronde_des_sylphes]

If someone uploads a fake recording, then compliments are empty. What have they really achieved? A bunch of people on an internet forum whom they will never meet think they're a better player than they are. Pretty meaningless. Any advice/suggestions they get will be limited and not as productive as they could be.

Very true, but if they upload midi under false pretences, they aren't looking for advice, just fishing for compliments.

Could someone point out a recording in our audition room that was midi edited?

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45099.0

[Bob]

Yeah, that one does sound like MIDI.  Not much variation in key strokes.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Or is there one that completely built up from nothing, all MIDI no human? I could see tweaking note here and there as being possible, but it sounds like a lot of work to really drastically change a performance.  If it's a really sloppy performance to begin with, is it even possible -- or reasonable -- to edit a crappy performance into something stellar?

It doesn't need to have been a performance AT ALL to begin with. Even with something like Sibelius, you can produce midi just from the score - the native Sibelius midi wouldn't fool anyone, but midi played with the right software might.

[Bob]

Oh man... Yeah, the end.  I heard the repeated notes, but the end. 

I would actually like to hear a human play it that fast, but actually play it.

[Bob]

I can see people being offended my MIDI performances like that.  It's not something to listen to, not unless you have to.  And if someone is saying they're playing, that it's offending since it's lying.  I suppose someone could actually "play" each note individually and still be "playing" the piece that way.  

I was thinking of someone either tweaking a few notes with MIDI or actually shaping a piece with MIDI, making it sound more human or more like they want it to sound like.  

I wouldn't want to listen to that unless I had to, if it were the only way to hear a performance.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Oh man... Yeah, the end.  I heard the repeated notes, but the end. 

I would actually like to hear a human play it that fast, but actually play it.

Or even better.. see it..

[johnlewisgrant]

I wouldn't want to listen to that unless I had to, if it were the only way to hear a performance.

You've seriously missed the point!

Midi is NOW ACOUSTICAL: so you WILL AND CAN NEVER KNOW what is "real" and what is "midi" or, as it were, "fake and dishonest"!!!!!!

"Acoustical" means that affordable midi machines for pianos are on the market.   You hook the machine to your piano and IT does the playing, but at a REAL PIANO.

So there's really no choice.   EITHER you allow EVERYTHING--midi and non-midi

OR you ask folks to be HONEST (which is purely a matter of trust obviously), and indicate to what extent midi has been employed.

Is there anything INHERENTLY wrong with midi?   Of course not.  It's a matter of musical taste.

But there IS something wrong with suggesting that you WITH YOUR OWN FINGERS played something when you did not.