Technique

[technique]

Hi....I would like to discuss technique, specifically the approach Chopin developed in his teaching
style re J Feild and Listz.   From what I understand the wrist moves slightly inward and out as the hand travels along accomodating the thumb pass.  Each note should not only be perfectly equal in timing ect but should actually be sustained as the next note is struck allowing for a legato.  Now....I watched a clip on line from a Univercisty in US and decided that something was wrong with the demonstrration....so I slowed it right down on my computer and sure enough there were gaps in legato as well un-eveness,,,He was the prof.....comments?

[keyboardclass]

Chopin was happy for gaps in the legato in arpeggios.  As you say it's the timing that's important.  As for wrist movement - yes both sideways and up and down. Here's a vid I made:

It's not related to field or liszt though - if anything more Bach.  His technique was purely his and revolutionary!

[thalbergmad]

There will be trouble ahead.................

[keyboardclass]

Too right.

[technique]

Chopin was happy for gaps in the legato in arpeggios.  As you say it's the timing that's important.  As for wrist movement - yes both sideways and up and down. Here's a vid I made:

It's not related to field or liszt though - if anything more Bach.  His technique was purely his and revolutionary!

Thankyou
I want you to know something . That something is that Chopin the teacher never gave his etudes to anyone unless they were highly developed pianists. This is important.  Reason being is that trying to execute at even a very very slow speed can damage your hands and at very least increase everything there is to obstructing progress. Because your hands have not been developed properly this piece is throwing your hand and thumb way out of position , exerting over emphasized abnormal expectations on your whole hand. Enthusiasm is very important of which you definately have but you gotta get back to basics and introduce scale work with proper form.   I enjoyed the playing and played that piece a while ago.

[keyboardclass]

Hey, thanks for the advice!  but I do have a diploma in performance (some of it of Chopin).  The vid illustrates the technique you mentoned - 'From what I understand the wrist moves slightly inward and out as the hand travels along'

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi....I would like to discuss technique, specifically the approach Chopin developed in his teaching
style re J Feild and Listz.   From what I understand the wrist moves slightly inward and out as the hand travels along accomodating the thumb pass.  Each note should not only be perfectly equal in timing ect but should actually be sustained as the next note is struck allowing for a legato.  Now....I watched a clip on line from a Univercisty in US and decided that something was wrong with the demonstrration....so I slowed it right down on my computer and sure enough there were gaps in legato as well un-eveness,,,He was the prof.....comments?

Was it audible at regular speed? It would be interesting if you could post the clip. The big issue is whether you can hear it in normal listening. Arguably Chopin was right but his words are often bastardised to excuse thoroughly audible sloppiness. In particular, if you can hear tonal unevenness and significant gaps in a slow execution, the odds that any illusions will occur at speed are zero. Chopin's words should never be used to excuse low standards of expectation regarding control.

[keyboardclass]

In particular, if you can hear tonal unevenness and significant gaps in a slow execution, the odds that any illusions will occur at speed are zero. Chopin's words should never be used to excuse low standards of expectation regarding control.

Exactly!  Ignore Chopin.  After all his audience didn't have computer manipulation which allowed them to slow down performances and point out tedious minutiae!  Jeez if only they'd realized what crap they'd been listening to Kaulkbrenner would now be our main man!  - no uneveness there (not much music either).

Anyway, anything so long as you can get your platitudes out there, eh N?

[nyiregyhazi]

Exactly!  Ignore Chopin.  After all his audience didn't have computer manipulation which allowed them to slow down performances and point out tedious minutiae!  Jeez if only they'd realized what crap they'd been listening to Kaulkbrenner would now be our main man!  - no uneveness there (not much music either).

Anyway, anything so long as you can get your platitudes out there, eh N?

Keep the strawman arguments to yourself. You saw what I wrote- ie. consider what Chopin said, but don't twist his words into supposedly forgiving the kind of sloppiness that is on display in your video. People hear what their ears pick-up, not with reference to historical quotations about how they are meant to be fooled. No computer is needed to hear the very immediate holes in the playing in your video. I do not force students to strain for legato myself. However, neither do I give them a pat on the back for extremely choppy playing, simply because of a single quote from Chopin. Although my thumb does not literally connect in arpeggios, I do not casually tolerate audible breaks in the sound- because the results suffer. For that matter, in a slow tempo I will not tolerate any audible gap at all. It's totally anti-melodic.

I'm sorry, but a diploma does not mean you have impeccable technique and you should have the basic humility to stop trying to put yourself on a pedestal- particularly considering how choppy the playing in that film is. If you want to put your videos out there, the least you can do is take criticism from more accomplished pianists on the chin. I have taught two students to Diploma level and would not have wished either of them to attempt that particular study (especially not if they thought it was okay to employ such major inconsistency of articulation). Incidentally, you said in another thread that a half-speed Chopin study speeds itself up? So, considering that you believe your video sets a good example, when are we going to see the results of it automatically speeding itself up? If you want to try to give advice to those working seriously at advanced repertoire, you need to start by dealing with your own playing.

[keyboardclass]

Keep the strawman arguments to yourself. You saw what I wrote- ie. consider what Chopin said, but don't twist his words into supposedly forgiving the kind of sloppiness that is on display in your video.

Rant all you like - there's no sloppiness it that video.

[nyiregyhazi]

Rant all you like - there's no sloppiness it that video.

That single assertion speaks volumes. I don't need to add anything more, as it could not possibly reveal anywhere near as much as that lone sentence.

[keyboardclass]

I don't need to add anything more,

Heaven be praised!

[thalbergmad]

Kaulkbrenner would now be our main man!  - no uneveness there (not much music either).

It is Kalkbrenner old chap. I am sure it was just a typo

The next Hyperion Romantic Piano Concerto release might interest you. The Adagio & Allegro di Bravura is a blast.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

Thanks, I ordered it.  It'll be great to hear what all the fuss was about.  Howard Shelly should be the man for the job.

[starstruck5]

There will be trouble ahead.................

Nostradamus returns -lol -you were right though.

[nyiregyhazi]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=g8S4nY9LQ8MC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=chopin+legato&source=bl&ots=2AuQGqDDRE&sig=NIXd8FtpFUp146zuAOEmCzKpkPE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xAYwT6H-CcWZ8gOf7PGQDw&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=chopin%20legato&f=false

There's a nice quote in the link- about how Chopin called playing that is not legato a "pigeon hunt". It's all very easy to take single instances out of context come up with a superficially face-value interpretation that might appear to forgive technical laziness. Out of context, even my own words could easily be used to suggest that legato is not important in arpeggios- seeing as I tell students  that the most literal of joins will not occur at speed, myself. However, I tell them that they have to listen to whether it SOUNDS legato.

A few years ago, I used to take a rather blase attitude, based on the same premise. However, I came to realise that the non-legato sound was very much audible in my playing and that the size of the gap was spoiling the continuity of my arpeggios at high speeds. Some of the most important work I did was based on literal overlapping during the thumb passing. If you have a foundation in literal legato, you can maintain a legato sound when beginning to let go and allow a tiny disconnect. If you just never bother learning to connect, the loss of legato tends to be quite blatant.

I just filmed myself playing the Tchaikovsky/Pletnev Pas de Deux. While I have no delusions of having attained anything close to perfection (and still have plenty of work to do on arpeggio technique in general), I'll post a link later- to illustrate the results of taking the time to work on a sense of genuine connection- and only then letting go of it.

[keyboardclass]

The man himself: 'No one will notice the inequality of sound in a very fast scale, as long as the notes are played in equal time' 

[nyiregyhazi]

The man himself: 'No one will notice the inequality of sound in a very fast scale, as long as the notes are played in equal time' 

Virtually all teachers exaggerate aspects to students, when that particular student is coming from a specific place. Often teachers will give two different students literally opposite advice.

Regardless, the problem with basing it all on Chopin is that it comes down to whether people notice. Not whether Chopin said that they will. One significant factor is that modern pianos have much faster dampers and are often much less forgiving of inequality than the pianos of Chopin's time. Ultimately, nothing matter but how these things manifest themselves in sound.

[keyboardclass]

Virtually all teachers exaggerate aspects to students, when that particular student is coming from a specific place. Often teachers will give two different students literally opposite advice.

The quote's from his Projet de methode dummy!  A textbook for all.

[nyiregyhazi]

The quote's from his Projet de methode dummy!  A textbook for all.

Fine. I refer you back to the second half of my post, which contained the most important points yet which you failed to provide any counterargument against. Also, the quote doesn't even appear to be made in reference to legato? On that issue, I'll stick with the quote he made about non-legato playing.

[keyboardclass]

On that issue, I'll stick with the quote he made about non-legato playing.

Oh dear,    that quote's from Von Lenz.  You really ought to leave the Chopin scholarship to those who know what they're doing.

[thalbergmad]

This is brilliant

[keyboardclass]

We aim to please.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh dear,     that quote's from Von Lenz.  You really ought to leave the Chopin scholarship to those who know what they're doing.

Fine. Let's write off that point altogether, for all I care. And now for the important one, that you keep ducking out of?

"Regardless, the problem with basing it all on Chopin is that it comes down to whether people notice. Not whether Chopin said that they will."

Do you reserve your responses for the least significant issues, or do you address important points?

Here is a film featuring some rapid-fire arpeggios (approx 4.30 EDIT- sorry 3.30) in.

I used to play this a few years back, when I had not bothered taking the time to focus on legato in arpeggios. While I could make the passages sound acceptable, they were frankly very messy and frequently inaccurate. The lazy attitude that purports that "nobody can hear legato anyway" used to make for notably audible bumps in the lines.

Seeing as I don't have any kind of God-complex, I'm not under the delusion that the current film now represents flawless execution. In fact, I am very much aware that I still need to make the thumb passing smoother. However, it illustrates how much more becomes possible when you do not settle for the idea that poor quality thumb passing will do, just because of some old quote. If it aint smooth, you need to practise making it smooth- not quote Chopin.

If you're serious about giving advice on advanced repertoire that is played at high speeds, you should start by developing the ability to play advanced repertoire at high speeds. If you haven't put the effort in to gain first-hand experience, you have no business encouraging others to limit themselves by taking the same sloppy attitudes. Interpretation of historical quotes may excuse such an attitude on paper, but it does not produce real-world results.

[keyboardclass]

How come this thread has become yet another one about me?  There is an OP ya know.  Sheesh.

[nyiregyhazi]

How come this thread has become yet another one about me?  There is an OP ya know.  Sheesh.

If you do not have a point to make on the subject matter, please stop posting (or rather trolling). The thread became about you when you posted a video featuring a truly atrocious example and then had the egotistical audacity to claim that your technique is beyond criticism. Ironically, I suspect that your video and posts have made various issues loud and clear to the original poster (if not for the reasons you might hope).

If you feel you have something to contribute, contribute a film of some fast arpeggios- to illustrate the efficacy of your stance. The proof is in the pudding.

[keyboardclass]

The thread became about you when you posted a video featuring a truly atrocious example

IYHO

[nyiregyhazi]

IYHO

If it's only my opinion then stop clogging up these threads with your tedious delusions of expertise and capability. Everytime someone expresses dismay at your examples you claim they are the "only" one. Instead of posting words, post a film that proves the effectiveness of what you preach by involving something that is played at speed. Seeing as you claimed that this happens automatically if you play a study well at half-speed, this shouldn't be hard. Or was that simply an expression of misplaced smugness- rather than a remotely accurate observation, that you chose to mask as meaningful advice to another poster?

I don't know whether it disgusts me more that you are intent on portraying your delusions of first-hand expertise or that you respond with literally no humility at all whenever anyone questions it. The OP made an extremely polite criticism and as you usual you respond in a dismissively condescending tone and reference a meaningless piece of paper, rather than listen to him. Stop wasting everybody's time with your claims. If any of what you preach works outside of slow tempos, stop telling people how great you are and prove it. With the example you posted above, I'm amazed that you're even allowed to post in this forum, given the description of the expected criteria for posters.

[keyboardclass]

I don't know whether it disgusts me more

Don't be such a drama queen.  The OP is quite capable of answering for himself.  Sadly he logs on....and logs off.  I wonder why?

[technique]

Thankyou all and if you notice I just joined the site last night and am absolutely thrilled to discuss , talk and enjoy with all the great topic.
I'm on the fly right now and noticed last night that theres lots of beginners with very impressive enthusiasm. This is great.  Now, my feeling is that an approach to sitting down on the bench should be one of  relaxed, non-arguementative mentally focused disposition. Keyboardplayer is showing us the opposite. The hands ability complain, argue and procrastinate against the piece.
He or she cannot play the piece at any speed with reasonable comfort at all. Since this is true, what we hear represents exactly what is going on....an arguement. The arppegios should in principal have absolute legato at slow speed. A way of checking is trying formula pattern hands seperate for discerning issues. Anyone can try very slow with thumb passing scale work and as each note is struck ....stop....is the remainder of hand tensed up, any finger or area and this is important....NOT SUPPLE..?
We can together keep people from wasting time with bad instruction. The hand must be supple at all times...otherwise it will be heard and as well interfere with developement...the clip from the university is WHY...frustration is abounding in the progress as well fun....it should be enjoyable....The most difficult thing is concentrating on the proper approach to get the hand into the habit of playing with suppleness.  If any of you know the golf swing....have a look at the pros....theres a reason why the fundemental golf swing looks basically the same with all the pros...theres really only one swing...you just can't pick up the golf club like a baseball bat and take a wack at it, as keyboard shows in approach to the pianoforte.  The golf ball and the music will go into the woods where it belongs.....I'm looking forward to getting the fun back into this instrument for people and hope this helps....Keyboard player , if you want to play that etude you will have to back up with getting your hands prepared properly. If you just want to argue then that is fine....but, people should have the option of deciding for themselves what makes sense. As pointed out in a previous post here, theres no way a good excersize in that study is in advantage here, this shows the reason why people get frustrated....improper instruction. It would be better to do say two or three very well focused but relaxed 15 minutes of proper scale work a day then 6 hours of scales, playing and what most people do....fight the piano

[keyboardclass]

The hands ability complain, argue and procrastinate against the piece.
He or she cannot play the piece at any speed with reasonable comfort at all.

Great you can join us!  Sorry, but disagree with the above.  There's a special (Chopin) technique going on in that vid - one you don't seem aware of.

[nyiregyhazi]

If any of you know the golf swing....have a look at the pros....theres a reason why the fundemental golf swing looks basically the same with all the pros...theres really only one swing...you just can't pick up the golf club like a baseball bat and take a wack at it, as keyboard shows in approach to the pianoforte.

Check out some of these!

&feature=related

The cross-handed one is pretty remarkable!

I'm very much with you in principle though. At the root of it, certain things must be the same for success to ensue. Get certain things wrong, and you go nowhere.

You can see how misguided this particular poster's approach to technique is and so can I (and countless others who have previously commented). Unfortunately, he is too busy enjoying the ego-boost he gets from portraying personal expertise to take any advice. I've actually learned a lot about the problems with the methods he preaches, by seeing how they limit him. My fear is for those that he tries to give advice to, who may not immediately pick up on how poorly it serves him. Regardless, trying to help him out with advice inevitably results in an extremely undignified attempt to defend himself. He is not interested in learning or bettering his playing. He'd sooner come out with a quote than admit that he is light-years away from playing that study. It's a shame really, as it's never too late for a person with an open-mind to develop. If I was clinging on to some of the things I was originally taught, I'd have gone nowhere (and I say that from a position of still having countless ground to cover).

[keyboardclass]

He'd sooner come out with a quote than admit that he is light-years away from playing that study. .

If anything is light-years away is your, and I would assume the OP's, ability to play that etude with the accents as written (going up as well as down).

[technique]

Great you can join us!  Sorry, but disagree with the above.  There's a special (Chopin) technique going on in that vid - one you don't seem aware of.

Then you can show playing it at top speed, in a fluid manner without tagging along all the mistakes in the demonstration...otherwise please explain how playing it slow with mistakes , un-eveness, ect ect
can be even come close to what was intended in the excersize...

Its like trying to do a top level gymnist move on those rings without proper , gradual developement in the muscle power and flexability...or dropping your head trying to do curls with to much weight. The reason why a mirror is in the weight lifting room is to keep the neck and head straight, not bent down over exerting...The neck is the easiest muscle in the body to over exert.

Look at your thumb....play the excersize very very slowly, now when you strike the forth and fith fingers....stop....where is your thumb and is it supple ....NO. it is reaching out like a rang atang to zero in on the next note.....part of that stability in the thumb portion of hand is required for the forth and fioth note strike....you are not allowing for this. and consequently using your forearm to offset your very very weak forth and fith fingers...try a few trills with thios portion of your hand...how do they sound?   well thats how your demonstration sounds...you gotta work up to things...therers a reason for everything, consequence in playing sound will perfectly reflect proper practice.
Why should people who take the time, concentrate and patiently follow the right path not be rewarded for the effort? ....i gotta fly

[keyboardclass]

and consequently using your forearm to offset your very very weak forth and fith fingers..

Sorry but you're rather hard to follow.  Just to say this - the forearm is supposed to be playing finger 5, both going up and down.  As I say, I don't think you're familiar with using arm weight.  As Chopin said 'Just as we need to use the conformation of the fingers, we need no less to use the rest of the hand, the wrist, the forearm and the arm. - one cannot try to play everything from the wrist, as Kalkbrenner claims.'

[nyiregyhazi]

Sorry but you're rather hard to follow.  Just to say this - the forearm is supposed to be playing finger 5, both going up and down.  As I say, I don't think you're familiar with using arm weight.  As Chopin said 'Just as we need to use the conformation of the fingers, we need no less to use the rest of the hand, the wrist, the forearm and the arm. - one cannot try to play everything from the wrist, as Kalkbrenner claims.'

So why is it not working? Why can't you play it with accuracy or eveness at such a slow speed? And why are you in denial about this self-evident fact? If what you claim works really does, spend a week practising it and then record at 3/4 of the expected speed. Why are you not willing to face up to reality? If you insist that what is on display on that video represents an acceptable standard, you should not even be posting in a forum that is supposed to be reserved for serious pianists and professionals- nevermind under the pretence of authority.

It's one thing to want to put a stance out, but the patronising tone you take (implying that anyone who sees how inept your execution is obviously doesn't understand Chopin's technique) is deeply offensive. Ignorance is one thing when a person behaves with sincerity and humility, but it's a whole different kettle of fish when coupled with delusions of grandeur- and will resort to any means to protect that delusion.

[keyboardclass]

So why is it not working? Why can't you play it with accuracy or eveness at such a slow speed?

It's as even as it needs to be.

[nyiregyhazi]

It's as even as it needs to be.

If that's your idea of even enough, you should only be allowed to post in the students corner. You have no business trying to give advice, when coming from a place of such low expectations. Anyway, I'm tired of fuelling your incessant trolling. I'm glad I'm not the only one who is prepared to expose you for once, but I have had enough of this nonsense for now. There's no point arguing against a person who does not have any capacity for self-criticism. I just wish you weren't given free reign to air your delusions- because you never know who might be taken in. You should not be allowed to advise people to take up the same attitudes that restrict your own technique so severely.

[keyboardclass]

. I just wish you weren't given free reign to air your delusions- because you never know who might be taken in.

Our own forum vigilante!  How sweet.  How about you playing this etude with the accents?  You've only demonstrated you can't in the past.

[nyiregyhazi]

Our own forum vigilante!  How sweet.  How about you playing this etude with the accents?  You've only demonstrated you can't in the past.

Fine. I'll post a video of the same section your video contains tomorrow. I don't believe in exaggerated accentuation in the Etude, however it's no problem to emphasise the fifth finger to order. When I post the link, I will be expecting to see an up-tempo version from yourself in return. I am tired of seeing your patronising pseudo-intellecualism about "Chopin technique". "Chopin technique" does not mean playing everything at half-speed. It's time for you to either illustrate that your supposed "Chopin technique" works, or stop trolling this forum with fraudulent bravado that is thinly disguised as meaningful advice.

[keyboardclass]

Fine. I'll post a video of the same section your video contains tomorrow. I don't believe in exaggerated accentuation in the Etude, however it's no problem to emphasise the fifth finger to order. When I post the link, I will be expecting to see an up-tempo version from yourself in return.

Demand away!  You can't do those accents, you haven't the technique.

[pianowolfi]

Hi....I would like to discuss technique, specifically the approach Chopin developed in his teaching
style re J Feild and Listz.   From what I understand the wrist moves slightly inward and out as the hand travels along accomodating the thumb pass.  Each note should not only be perfectly equal in timing ect but should actually be sustained as the next note is struck allowing for a legato.  Now....I watched a clip on line from a Univercisty in US and decided that something was wrong with the demonstrration....so I slowed it right down on my computer and sure enough there were gaps in legato as well un-eveness,,,He was the prof.....comments?

Well, I'd like to watch that video clip

[j_menz]

so I slowed it right down on my computer

Umm... to what possible end???

Each note should not only be perfectly equal in timing ect

Bleah!! No! Yuck!! Horrible!!

You seem to believe that THE perfect performance would be generated by a MIDI controller.  No mention of the feel for the music, just the "perfection" of the technical aspects.

I'm not going to like your posts, methinks. I suspect you won't much like mine either.

[keyboardclass]

Found another of the first page with accents but without so much splashing:

[nyiregyhazi]

Umm... to what possible end???

Bleah!! No! Yuck!! Horrible!!

You seem to believe that THE perfect performance would be generated by a MIDI controller.  No mention of the feel for the music, just the "perfection" of the technical aspects.

I'm not going to like your posts, methinks. I suspect you won't much like mine either.

In fairness even "perfectly even" does not necessarily mean in the sense that all MIDI velocities would be equal. The word perfect is often used in exaggeration, and very few people mean literal 100% evenness when they refer to something being even. Evenness can simply mean without audible breaks and bumps that disturb the continuity of the line. I like pianists who employ the most extreme variety. However, I'd still criticise with regard to a lack of "evenness" if a pianist could not control his tone. I don't think we should jump to the assumption that the poster's language implies a pedantic viewpoint. The question is whether he slowed down with a computer to merely verify what he felt he had already detected as a problem in the sound, or whether it was done out of pedantry. From his tone, I suspect the former- although he can tell us for himself.

Either way I'd rather like to see the film in question. Could the poster please provide a link?

[nyiregyhazi]

Found another of the first page with accents but without so much splashing:

It's not terribly hard to accent at that tempo. To be honest, I actually find the sense of accentuation really rather slight, from someone who is so obsessed with the accents. Why don't you exaggerate, if you think it's such a big issue? At that speed, I'd be inclined to make vastly more contrast, if I were wanting to make an issue of the accents. When sped up, the level of accentuation on become inaudible altogether. You'd need to exaggerate way more to make it stick. Owing to so little finger movement, the sense of distinction is really rather slight at times, I'm afraid (and elsewhere depends on notes failing to sound altogether- you still need to control the other tones, otherwise the vagueness of touch will make it break down altogether at speed). Bringing the fingers properly into play allows much more differentiation between levels. And it makes it possible to play faster than half-tempo.

[j_menz]

Evenness can simply mean without audible breaks and bumps that disturb the continuity of the line. I like pianists who employ the most extreme variety. However, I'd still criticise with regard to a lack of "evenness" if a pianist could not control his tone. I don't think we should jump to the assumption that the poster's language implies a pedantic viewpoint. The question is whether he slowed down with a computer to merely verify what he felt he had already detected as a problem in the sound, or whether it was done out of pedantry. From his tone, I suspect the former- although he can tell us for himself.

Fair point.  I agree about tone control.

I also confess to suspecting the latter rather than the former. Perhaps OP could clarify.  I would also be interested in seeing the vid in question for further illumination.

[technique]

Ok I think we can make some progress , I see some well thought out posts, no doubt about it.
Most of the talk about accent is interfereing with the objective. An accent as we know is a dynamic, not a componant of equality in timing and connectivity. Don't worry about a noticed dynamic in this piece...in fact if seriously learning...forget about it at start up.. Its not ...why....the piece is an effective study.....you should be able to count it out loud with the metronome and more clearly see where issues are...this goes into another area and I think we will be touching on it later



Now some post , I forget who exactly is going off into a smokescreen about
tempo ect.....We are NOT talking about artist discression....we are talking about form, control, habbit, power, suppleness, flexibility, ease in execution...the important stuff...Now before I forget someone asked for the clip I referred to in the OP....I will try to find it and believe I can....I have to eat...do practice and will fully feel obliged to have it for you tommorow morning...Thankyou for reminding me....this clip will help us get down to zeroing in on bad instruction, if...we deem such.
Although the clip should bring a little unity into breaking down exactly what were talking about.

A great pianist could have never seen that etude were talking about and play say...the first two lines at top speed in about an hour or two max.Now Im sure you mean well keyboard but I notice we have another angle on this demonstration....hiding the thumb( I call it stunned banana syndrome)  Your second kick at the cat sounded a little more fluent but still note values are terribly biased-inconsistent.

 I'm hoping that we can make exact determinations in where the thumb and second finger are to be in scale as the hand progress up and down...remember ...the movement of the thumb for the entire scale should be perfectly even throughout.It cannot just be stationairy at any moment...then move to accomplish something. It should follow the general path of direction in an even manner. I think we can piece this together.....Oh...travino has the worst swing...but they all have exact weight distribution...backswing....weight on right inner side of foot ,pause at the top, hip movement starts the backswing....sorry if this was to long and if we can confirm some basic rules we
will be getting somewhere ,I think anyway....I will get that clip and if i can find it ....post before i turn in...which is ussually a while from now  

[j_menz]

this goes into another area and I think we will be touching on it later

I can't hardly contain my excitement 

May need a good stiff drink first, though. 

[technique]

I'm still looking fror the clip I mentioned and came across this.....anyone know why this guy doesn't know what hes doing ?   I will continue to look for the one mentioned