Composition

[ajspiano]

Welcome to the composition thread, or perhaps composition project - (still in its infancy)

In this thread participants can observe and learn from each others creative process, and from significant composers throughout music history. We steadily add new and different 'tasks' for participants to complete. At this stage the instructional material is scattered, and I have no intention of cleaning it up yet so you'll just have to read for a bit and see what you find.

You will need a scorewriter in order to particpate fully, if you do not have one please check out musescore.org - its free and works.

.....

You can find the progressive versions of the following tasks throughout the thread, completed pieces will be added here. If I fail to add your completed piece and you would like to see it up here send me a PM.

Task 1 - minuet (presently the only task we have done)

• ajspiano (Minuet in G major) - https://musescore.com/user/26500/scores/43794
  
• nystul (Sweet Dance in Eb Major) - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45729.msg499245#msg499245 (you can download the PDF file here, this is reply #69 in this thread)
  
• candlelightpiano (Minuet in G major) https://musescore.com/user/26449/scores/43881 - this is choo's first ever complete composition!! - many congrats
  
• austinarg (G major) - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45729.msg499194#msg499194 (download PDF here, reply #66)
  
• j_menz (Promethean Minuet - an atonal minuet [how awesome?!] influences from scriabin!) https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45729.msg499710#msg499710 - (PDF here, thread post #95)
  
• fleetfingers (Minuet in G) - https://musescore.com/user/26470/scores/45433
  
• keyofc (Minuet in Eb) - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45729.msg500470#msg500470
  

______________________________________

Following is the original post I made to see if anyone was interested.

Buried deeeep into a couple of other threads, I've been discussing some theory with a few forum members and working towards practically applying that knowledge to write ones own music. Woot.

A couple of people are suggesting we take it public and see if anyone else wants to get in on the shenanigans. Ideally I'd like to see at least 5 or so people (I'd be one of them) that want to have a crack at composing their own music, and sharing their ideas - however simple they start out.

Within this thread we would observe and learn from compositions by the greats, learning about form/harmony/melody etc. etc. by setting compositional tasks such as "Everybody writes a piece in the style of composer x" or "everyone writes a rondo" - or even just part there of if composing a whole piece seems like far too big a task.

When I am able to do so (constrained by time/knowledge) I will make every effort to explain how to go about the task, or at least point people toward what to think about in order to figure it out on their own. As well as comment on other peoples ideas, and I would hope that others would tell me how I can improve too.

Anywho - if anyone is keen to give it a go please say so, and give me an idea of what your background is as far as both performance and composition. Then I'll think about how we can start in a way that benifits all.

[candlelightpiano]

Count me in for sure and since your composition lessons were buried deeeeep into my thread, and you've been following my progress from the get go, you know my history.    

What on earth is Woot?

[ajspiano]

What on earth is Woot?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woot

[candlelightpiano]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woot

 

[danhuyle]

I've always wanted to write music.

I've got a music degree. Play classical music. Composition is all new to me.

[starstruck5]

Count me in.   

[jeffkonkol]

ajs - i've actually been debating putting my most recent composition, or at least the audio of it (as ive been too lazy thus far to score it) up here for opinions or shredding ... i've found all the project threads really a breath of fresh air in the forum world, and I guess it has been enough to draw me out of my shell.

i dont know if deconstructing that kind of thing would be useful to you for illustration purposes or if your vision for compositional discussions goes completely in a different direction....

[zoecalgary]

AJ - I would love to join in! My background is about 5 years of organ lessons as a kid (with limited rudiments of music and not really any focused work on theory). I'll be focusing on theory more after I do my grade 4 RCM exam in April. I have a bunch of fragmented pieces of information/knowlege acquired over the years but I need to pull it all together.

I'm guessing I'm going to be your most junior student (in knowledge/ability - not age! haha) but I'm willing to do the work and anything else to get me to a minimum level of knowledge to participate.

[candlelightpiano]

No, Zoe, you won't be AJ's most junior student in terms of knowledge and ability.  I am!  I've only had 2 1/2 plus years of piano plus 2 months of coaching from Birba and AJ.  If you add your 5 organ years to your nearly one year in piano, you have 6 years.  That's nearly 3 more years than me!   

[m1469]

Cool idea I'd love to, but alas, for now I will just have to be an observer unless something changes.

[ajspiano]

Glad to see there's been some response over night. We also seem to have a fairly ranging knowledge based, from those of us who are technically capable of some fairly advanced work down to an intermediate performance level.

I think in the immediate future that best approach would be to start with simpler shorter ideas. The advantage of which would be that there would be limited technical difficulty in playing our own works, and that all of us would be able to play each others works as well. This means focusing on the composing more than learning to play the music.

One possibility for this would be to tackle 1 or 2 baroque suite pieces - ie. sarabande, gigue, gavotte, minuet etc. - before taking on anything more complex, because it would be impractical for us to say lets all write a sonata, it would be beyond some of us, and take far too long.

@jeffkonkol - I'd be more than happy to see your composition up here, though people posting their own isolated ideas was not where I was thinking about this going. I'm hoping for us to be able to all work on similar ideas and similar levels at least initially so that we can all learn from and feed off each others learning and ideas - at least until we are all comfortable with turning ideas into music without too much help.

[ted]

I too will be in the "watching with interest" category. I've composed hundreds of things over the years but theory, traditional forms and I are total strangers and may it ever remain so. Or to rephrase it more truthfully, I don't understand it and probably never will. My background would only render me a hindrance to those wishing to interactively learn and practise orthodox methods. I did take lessons in it once, from a very prominent composer here, but as I came out of it still preferring my "wrong" sounds to his "right" ones, the whole exercise was a complete waste of time and money.

In short I am unsuitable. Nonetheless, I wish everybody well with the project and look forward to hearing some interesting music.

[m1469]

meh, I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose this battle of resisting ...

[ajspiano]

@ted

As an improviser, I strongly suspect you have an inner sense of the 'rules' and how they can be bent - its not concious, its just natural - as is my experience.

I use rules in the teaching realm to get people started, for those who are staring blankly at a page or the piano and have no idea how to begin. A fixed form, rhythm or chord progression limits their choices and gets them out of the creative quicksand and moving forward. And, new different forms help them expand on their ideas, its like drawing influence from a recording just in a different way.

It also gets them experimenting with and listening to what they are playing - some are just so focused on reading the notes and hitting the right keys that they are never observing and understanding what a transition from C to G sounds like. - and realising that it always sounds like that, and that you can have an inner sense of what every note(s) sound like.

[keyofc]

I'm interested!  I was just looking on the forum for something about composition and saw your post.
My background is worship music.
I have not a lot of  the other traditional forms either, but would like to observe and give it a shot.
thanks for doing this!
Ted - I'd love to hear your music.

[jeffkonkol]

AJ - that's why I asked.  I will send it directly, or I will post it on a different thread in here when I get a decent recording but keep it separate from this as you are looking more at a compositional workshop experience, which is a good thing.  :-)

[starstruck5]

meh, I'm pretty sure I'm going to lose this battle of resisting ...

lol -I am sure this is a good thing.

[williampiano]

I think I will also join this thread. I have a little experience in composing. I wrote a few pieces a while ago, back when I was around 11 or 12, but I haven't done any composing in a few years. Lately though, I've been thinking of getting back into composing, so I think this thread might be an interesting way to do so.

[austinarg]

I'm in. I've never composed, I think I'll give it a try  

EDIT: I've just had a -somewhat daring  - idea. How about AJ (or someone else) composes a short theme, let's say about 12 bars (feel free to add more, if you want to), and everyone else makes up a variation for that theme? This could be fun  

[ajspiano]

How about AJ (or someone else) composes a short theme, let's say about 12 bars (feel free to add more, if you want to), and everyone else makes up a variation for that theme?

I think this is a cool idea - though initially it will likely present as too much of a challenge for some people - i'm gradually putting together a post that will give us all a basic task, with some guidance, and we will see where everyone stands..  who can do what and how easily I mean..

Not that I wish to isolate anyone as better or worse at composing - rather I want to try and maximize involvement so I don't want to set something that is beyond anyone at this point. And even within a simpler task, those who find it too easy can take it further of their own accord, this will stimulate the learning of others..

[ajspiano]

Ok, so I’d like to state that while I’m taking a sort of leadership role here I do not mean to be perceived as all knowing. While I may know a bit more than some other participants I intend this to be a learning experience for myself also. As such, what I’m posting here, is not just off the top of my head, I’ll also be collecting information (Yay for GOOGLE!!!) – please correct me if I post anything that is wrong, and add information if you feel you can, either from your own knowledge or through research.


Minuet – (ref. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/minuet)
n.
1. (Performing Arts / Dancing) a stately court dance of the 17th and 18th centuries in triple time
2. (Music / Classical Music) a piece of music composed for or in the rhythm of this dance, sometimes as a movement in a suite, sonata, or symphony

It should also be noted that the form of the minuet in music is not fixed throughout history, it changed and developed, and was the forerunner of the scherzo.

I’m going to start around bach’s time for this task. When the form was binary – which later developed into a rounded binary or ternary type feel. The binary form could be described as two sections, A and B. I’m going to give a bit more detail though. Also, just consider this as a guide not a rule, I’m not here to tell anyone how to be creative. There is no right or wrong, there is just certain conventions that tell us the form/style.

Section  A
Consists of 16 bars – There is a four bar phrase, which may often include a 2 bar sequence that is repeated in a different chord/mode. Check out the famous bach (or not bach) minuet in G to see what I mean about a repeated sequence. There is then another 4 bar phrase that likely ends on the dominant chord, this leads into a repeat of the first 8 bars, often with an alteration to the last 1-2 bars.

Thus, section A could be broken up into A – A(altered) – 16 bars total.

For the purpose of learning perhaps someone else could describe what happens in section B, you’ll need to look at several different minuets, there are ofcourse a few simple and famous ones in bach’s notebook for anna magdelena. You can also find examples in his French sweets, in haydn sonatas, Mozart has a number aswell – and ofcourse you can find your own examples.

…

There is also a “minuet rhythm”


^this was on Wikipedia

Now I can’t find a single example (I haven’t looked to hard) that follows this exactly – but there is a feel of accentuated first beats that is fairly consistent, along with 4 bar phrases always coming to a clear resolution (often that appropriately leads to the next) and a new one beginning. What must be considered really is that there is a dance for which this music is intended so the rhythm must fit the dance. You can find some videos of this on  youtube to get an idea, and observe the variations that are used in the literature to get an idea of whats acceptable.

Now I propose that we all write atleast the first 8 or 16 bars of a minuet (this may be enough for some, others may do more if they like) – I also realise that I haven’t given enough information to really explain how to do this, but I feel I need to reference actual examples to do that and I cant get that organised right now, hopefully I’ll be able to soon.

AJ

EDIT: oh dear - I seem to have written "sweets" instead of suites. Facepalm.

Also - https://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.05.11.2/mto.05.11.2.eckert.pdf - I havent read this yet, but for anyone that really wants to nail this there's probably a lot of good info in there, and it'll save me writing it all out ...its a look into mozart, with reference to a composition textbook. Worksheets included. Good find.

[ajspiano]

Getting the ball rolling - I've written in G major, because it'll be easy for everyone to get their head around.

Attached is my section A (16 bars) - melody only.

I will add accompaniment later with explanation. If you look at my melody you'll see that I have used several of the ideas from my post above.

• bars 1-4 and 9-12 use the rhythmic pattern I found on wiki.
• bars 5-6, 13-14 use a repeated sequence
• bar 8 finishes on a "D" to allow for harmonizing with the dominant chord
• while bar 16 is altered to a G which makes for resolution of the whole section.

It follows the rules enough to make ted vomit

[austinarg]

Well, here's my first try, although I have to admit I got carried away on this one 

[candlelightpiano]

I haven't done any composing yet but I've printed out both your minuets.  Austin - quite a composition!  I'll go and play it out on the piano.  Yours, too, AJ.  Austin, are you also using musescore?  I can't figure out how to use it. Can you guys write up a simple 1 2 3 method of using musescore so I can learn to use it without having to spend a week doing so? 

AJ: I'm looking at 2 minuets, both in G. By Bach and Mozart.  Mozart only had 8 bars in A and another 8 in B but they were both repeated.

[ajspiano]

AJ: I'm looking at 2 minuets, both in G. By Bach and Mozart.  Mozart only had 8 bars in A and another 8 in B but they were both repeated.

Yes that's the case with a number of Mozart's works. Effectively the same thing as in Bach's works where the first 8 bars are very similar to the second 8 - creating a section of 16 bars. Without delving to much into my limited knowledge of 18th century france - I might suggest that the minuet dance may have had a fixed/set number of steps that everybody learnt, and that it fit into an 8 bars, and was then repeated. Then it may have been varied, for the varied B section of the piece..  I'm just guessing though..

If you look at that PDF file I linked too earlier you'll see a whole series of mozart minuets that all follow this 8 bars repeated for A, then 8 bars repeated for B structure.

[ajspiano]

although I have to admit I got carried away on this one

That's the idea..   I plan to take a closer look at your piece later on tonight - do you want me to critique it at all?

I'm a bit hesitant as I hate the idea of seizing control over someone creativity, and I don't believe that there is a right or wrong way to write music...  or that there is any valid argument for "this note is better than that note" - there is only  music "theory" that states generally the ear likes these notes better, and forgets to tell you that not everyone agrees.

[candlelightpiano]

So what is our assignment?  Are we supposed to do a composition like Austin's (I doubt I can do one as complicated yet)  or just a right hand composition like the one you did following the above rules?

Austin:  Your composition was harder to play than my Consolation!!      That tells you how poor a pianist I am and why I'm still struggling with FI!   

[ajspiano]

So what is our assignment?

The objective would ultimately be an entire minuet - however, realising that that may be beyond some people I put up my section A melody only example as a starting point.

You can create a melody by trial and error at the piano, just playing notes and finding a pattern you like - if its easier, decide on a rhythm first - thats what I did in my example by using the 'minuet rhythm' I found on wikipedia. - you could take your rhythm from there, or from haydn, mozart, bach, handel..  whatever you like, just have something to get you going until you are comfortable enough to create your own.

You can consider the idea of a sequence of notes repeating but moved, as I've used too. Generally, you're going to be in one key for the whole of section A, no modulations, so you can stick to the notes of a major or minor scale. Whatever key you choose.

.....

I'm going to do a separate post about writing the accompaniment, because its a whole other idea that involves discussion of the harmony and developing the ideas in the second half of section A. It's too much for me to write up all at once, and would leave those who've not composed before with an awful lot to think about.

I was expecting to have to help some people, and that others would just go full steam ahead like  austin has. Its good that way, as others get to observe his ideas, and learn from them.. compare them to the pieces written in the 18th century etc.

[zoecalgary]

So, I've read all that AJ provided and decided I would try this before looking at anybody elses examples because I was worried I would be stuck with their ideas in my head and that I wouldn't be able to come up with something of my own.

I only worked on right hand melody. Any and all comments welcome. I'll look at all the other posts tomorrow. I'm too tired to take anything else in right now. 

Just wanted to say this was fun! But I feel exhausted.

Some of my thoughts:

- Is a minuet supposed to be happy sounding (because it's a dance?) I think mine sounds sad (maybe it's in the key of A minor so it has that mood to it??)
- Does the theme repeat after 4 measures or 8?
- I originally had fun with different rhythms but wondered if somebody could actually dance to this?

[zoecalgary]

Choo - I downloaded Musescore - and looked at some of the online tutorials. It took be a bit to figure out how to edit something once I got it entered but as you see I managed to create and upload a document using this software. I imagine hooking my laptop to my digital will make this whole process easier. (especially with working out ideas on the keyboard vs on a computer screen). 

I think if I had worked out my idea on the keyboard first I would have made much faster progress of it all. But it is very late so I don't dare trying that now or I'll be up for a few more hours and I need my sleep!!

[fleetfingers]

Hi ajspiano and everyone else:

I have played piano since a young age . . . tried composing a couple of times but don't know how to develop ideas. I don't have knowledge of the rules, nor ted's level of creativity to complete anything. There is a tendency to start playing familiar tunes. As I was "composing" my Minuet just now, I came upon a delightful melody and started to write it down . . . then realized it is from The Ash Grove; a cute, little piece my student is playing. For a while there, I proudly thought I had come up with it myself.  

I will give this project a try because it sounds do-able . . . and non-threatening. I like the idea to start off very simple.    I read your notes about the Minuet and tried to stick to the pattern.

*Please disregard the grace note; I couldn't figure out how to get rid of it!  

Now that I've submitted mine, I will play all of yours!

[austinarg]

Well, it seems my minuet has gotten some nice reviews! Maybe I should start writing commissioned pieces... 

Choo: I used Sibelius, got it from a friend, he said it's a very powerful music writer, although I doubt I'll ever use its full potential.

AJ: Well, it's always good to receive feedback on things you are learning, in order to correct mistakes and gain a better understanding on the subject. So, feel free to say anything about it!

[ajspiano]

Here's some more help - just one way of doing things, not how I normally work but may be good for first (or second or third) timers.

Oh yes, and it's sideways - Oops    Don't really know how to fix that, sorry.

[candlelightpiano]

Okay.  I found some youtube tutorials for using musescore so I'll try and work on that today.  AJ, I guess music can be read sideways, too, or upside down!   

[austinarg]

That's a very interesting video, I'll compose another minuet based on your ideas. Is your cat going to join us too? 

[austinarg]

Ok, here's my second try... this seems to be easier than I thought, the music just comes out of me.

[candlelightpiano]

I learned how to use musescore but I cannot figure out how to get a pdf link like the rest of you have got.  I can only get a pdf that prints.  So HOW ON EARTH DO YOU GET A PDF LINK?

Here's my composition without the pdf (I really want to learn how to get that so please give me some instructions):

https://musescore.com/user/26449/scores/43752

Thanks.

[austinarg]

Nice work Choo, I love it! I can't wait for the accompaniment!!

About your problem, try looking for an "Export to PDF" feature. Every music notation software has one.

[fleetfingers]

I like yours a lot, Choo! Actually, the link is better because then I can push play to listen.

OK, so I'm working on the left hand of mine and realizing that I didn't stick to the I IV V chords when writing the melody. I have a ii in there (at least I think that's what it is). Is that OK for a Minuet??

Edit: (attached an updated version)

Listen here: https://musescore.com/user/26470/scores/43769

[zoecalgary]

Choo, On Musescore do this to generate a pdf document of your music:

- Top left menu option: click on File, then Save As
- In the box that pops up scroll down in the Save As Type drop down (near the bottom) and choose .pdf.

Then you can attach that file to your post. I haven't played anybody's yet. I'm going to go do sme changes to mine and do that soon.

[ajspiano]

@fleet -
To the best of my knowledge chords ii, iii, vi and vii are fine too. However the further you go back in history the less common they are going to be. Particularly vii with it's tritone. The only reason I used I, IV and V exclusively is because it's simpler for people's first go, less choices = easier descisions. Personally I'd be happy to see ted join us with a minuet written in the the 5th mode of a minor scale or some other such very non baroque period harmony.

I'm glad people are writing whole accompaniments too without my guidance.

One thing I didn't touch on on my video is that a main focus for me with the left hand will be rhymic and harmonically complimenting the RH and as such I may change the melody. Like Zoe has done, there's no need to be too stuck on keeping your melody exactly as is.. Everything can be refined along the way.

@choo -
I quite like your melody, and the fact that I was able to hot the play button and save myself the sight singing. Im very keen to see it come together with some left hand, zoes too.

@Austin -
Not that I care much for following the rules but your second minuet "looks" better than the first. I'm not quite sure how to explain what that means, I guess just that I can see in the score what theoretically good music looks like, because the hands/parts compliment each other better and the melody has a "curve" with gentle ups and down rather than jumping all over.. Not that pieces that don't look that way are wrong, just ones that do usually sound good.

[austinarg]

You're right, I did notice some dissonance in my first minuet, fortunately the second one came out better, but I think there's still plenty of work for me to do. Just out of curiosity, what will be our next musical form?

[ajspiano]

Just out of curiosity, what will be our next musical form?

I'm undecided on this front - I chose the minuet because its short, has a very clear form, easy enough rhythm and because it became a sonata movement. - We could develop it further and do the minuet and trio..

The trio is probably a significant compositional leap for the newbies as managing 3 parts and keeping them all operating separately but in conjuntion is going to be a challenge - it would make more sense to do more 2 part work first, and get to writing a 2 part invention before trying to do the trio or 3 part inventions, or for those really keen..  fugue.

The rest of the barouqe suite music will be good tools for learning with their different rhythms and such, giving us options, the more common elements perhaps being these:

Allemande
Courante
Sarabande
Gigue
Gavotte
Bourrée

I'm open to suggestions, though I will try to get everyone right the way through a minuet first ofcourse.

Also, I think once we have completed compositions I'll rewrite the first post and index them up there so that any new comers, and us for that matter can find everything easily..

[austinarg]

Well, I think moving to inventions is a good idea, in order to develop more complex pieces and take our first steps into counterpoint. Learning about orchestration right now seems a little too hard for me right now, first we should gain more understanding in composition for a single instrument.

[ajspiano]

Well, I think moving to inventions is a good idea, in order to develop more complex pieces and take our first steps into counterpoint. Learning about orchestration right now seems a little too hard for me right now, first we should gain more understanding in composition for a single instrument.

Its also important for the less experienced (though i'm sure you can just barge in if you feel like it)  to start learning things like simple modulations, and how to develop an idea throughout a piece before trying to write something much more complex such as sonata, fugue, scherzo, polonaise etc. and in ways that are technically more difficult to play.

[ajspiano]

first draft for section A with accompaniment.

[m1469]

Wow, this thread is a kind of dream come true!  Today, I thought I was going to be super good about resisting, then I came here and saw that there's been tons of cool activity in this thread.  Congratulations everybody! And then I thought I'd go ahead and try to "rattle something off," (don't know if it would rattle, but that's what I'd like it to do) but then I got so tired I can hardly even stand to read anymore.  Definitely wish I slept better last night!  BUT, perhaps I'll feel better in a bit and I can read the rest of the thread and everybody's contributions ... I got to "it follows the rules enough to make Ted vomit" ... hee hee ... and downloaded AJ's melody.  I'll get my way through this at some point (soon, I hope!) ... but I think I'm begging for a nap.

[austinarg]

Since this idea has become something this big, can anyone recommend some books on the subject? I'm thinking about Fundamentals of Musical Composition by Schoenberg...

[ajspiano]

1. Is a minuet supposed to be happy sounding (because it's a dance?) I think mine sounds sad (maybe it's in the key of A minor so it has that mood to it??)

2. Does the theme repeat after 4 measures or 8?

3. I originally had fun with different rhythms but wondered if somebody could actually dance to this?

1. - taking another heavily assumptive bash into french history that I really know nothing about - No I don't think it is, rather it can go either way. For some reason I picture this and the other french suite music being played at a masquerade  ball in the 17th and 18th centuries..  I also feel like maybe the entire suites of music were played with the intention of taking the party goers through an entire range of emotions, almost so as to allow the playing out of a story in dance..

^i could be so far from the truth there.

____________________

2. the first 4 bars form the first phrase, almost like a question, the second 4 answers the question. Then it repeats in the following 8 bars, with some variation.. if i was to try and explain this with some horribly cliche lyrics it might be like the following -

I went to the beach with my favourite girl (this is bars one to four, its the opening statement, but it requires more information to be interesting)

We frolicked and played in the sand (bars 5-8 : develops the idea of bars 1-4, keeping the idea of the theme)

I went to the beach today with my girl (9-12 repeats the first 4 bars, with a slight development perhaps, the "today" and "my" - its the same thing, but more.)

We frolicked and held each others hands (13-16 - ends the story, and the section - no more information is really required, you have the whole "who, when, where, what")

....don't know if anyone else really gets how the music does this..??

This kind of story would perhaps also exist in the dance steps perhaps..?


_______________________________

3. if you look up what the dance looks like it'll make more sense, its a pretty simple and polite kind of thing..

[candlelightpiano]

Choo, On Musescore do this to generate a pdf document of your music:

- Top left menu option: click on File, then Save As
- In the box that pops up scroll down in the Save As Type drop down (near the bottom) and choose .pdf.

Then you can attach that file to your post. I haven't played anybody's yet. I'm going to go do sme changes to mine and do that soon.

Thanks so much, Zoe!  I did that and now I've saved it as PDF but how do you attach it here?  How do you attach a .pdf here? 

Thanks, Fleetfingers and Austin.  Fleetfingers, I like the way you can play mine, too, but I also want to attach a .pdf like the rest of you.  I feel left out!!!