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Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true? (Read 26830 times)

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #100 on: June 18, 2012, 04:49:11 PM »
Famous people know when theyre writing a diary that the public is probably one day going to read it.

Still no offense, forte88, but don't you see there's a hole in YOUR argument? If it is true what you said, and Tchaikovsky hid everything from the eye, how could the Creator of the Lie have found out about it if the ONLY source he (mis)quotes is those very 11 diaries and 5000 letters? And you are talking to me about my so-called "misconstrued arguments"? C'mon, forte88, I think you can do better than that. Think of something else and challenge me.

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #101 on: June 18, 2012, 05:38:08 PM »
His marriage of convenience, looking for role models in (other) women, the very dubious circumstances of his death. This to me adds up to beyond reasonable doubt

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #102 on: June 18, 2012, 05:51:10 PM »
His marriage of convenience, looking for role models in (other) women, the very dubious circumstances of his death. This to me adds up to beyond reasonable doubt.

Marriages of convenience, looking for role models, and the very dubious circumstances of his death can be explained in MANY ways that are not strictly related to homosexuality. This is not a  forum of psychology, so I won't go there. I do find that a very weak basis to construe the argument of Tchaikovsky's being gay, especially since the diaries and the correspondence (the main evidence in the eyes of the prosecutor so to speak) have already proven to contain nothing related to the argument. One of the hidden assumptions in your reasoning is that you believe what you were told. I can't change that. End of discussion, I guess.

Paul
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Offline marik1

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #103 on: June 18, 2012, 07:10:22 PM »
My thesis was IMO composers/improvisers make the best pianists, coz they instinctively bring musicality into it and to be an improviser the technique should be 'selbstverstandlich'. But for others technicality is preferable. What I read about Bach he was an amazing keyboardist, could play with the pedals on the organ faster than others could play with their fingers. There's a playfulness to creativity, I can see it in Italian German composers but not in Russian/Jewish composers.


Sorry, it is way too hypothetical and generic. Today we have no way to know or hear Bach as a keyboardist or compare him to the modern pianists. So instead, please support your allegation with some substance and give names of, how you put it, "the best pianists", which we can hear and see how their musicality is superior to those who don't compose/improvise.

I'd start with Rachmaninov. Also (even though he is not the greatest of all composers) Pletnev. Cziffra. Who else?

Again it's the method employed. From what I know of Mozart he was dying to learn. I know of this anecdote where a friend of the family came round to play a composition, Mozart asked if he could play second violin. His father got angry coz he'd never learnt to play, he joined in anyway and the friend couldn't believe how he blended in as if he'd been playing for years.
Contrast that with the learned, forcefed approach.
Of course there will still be creativity, people are creative, only some cultures are more conducive to creativity, depending on the inherent talent, it will be able to prosper better. It's just common sense, people in a culture follow what's valued in that culture, 'naturally selects' (i.e they get to make plentiful babies)who  answer best to these ideals. Rabbis, scholars, lawyers yes, creativity not so much

So are you trying to say that Germans did not have priests, scholars, and lawyers?

May I ask you a few questions: what is creativity, to start with and how creativity achieved in reality?

What makes you think if the nation has rabbis, scholars, and lawyers then this speaks that nation does not have creativity?

Do you know anything (and I mean if you study the subject in depth and read some serious essays on the topic) about Russian system of musical education and creativity development? Which part of it makes you feel it is "forcefed"?

Do you have any at least very basic idea as for the Jewish history of 18-19-20th century?

As such, do you know anything (and again, I mean if you study the subject in depth and read some serious essays on the topic) about Jewish creativity and what in German system is different?

You are saying that Mozart was dying to learn. What makes you feel that there are not plenty of Russians, Jews, Chinese, South Americans, etc. who are not dying to learn?

And last, not least, since you are talking about superiority of German creativity, please post some names of German pianists whose amazing creativity would support your allegation (again, please do not bring Bach, or Beethoven, as we cannot hear them today).

Best, M

Offline marik1

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #104 on: June 18, 2012, 07:24:30 PM »
That he took his que from Western music and not from Russian music(implicitly recognizing its superiority). The greatest Russian composer a wannabe Western European.

Since we are on that, do you know anything about Russian entire music life and system of education of the second half of the 19th century, what is Russian Nationalism, which role had Tchaikowski to do with that?

If you do, that would answer your questions about him to be a "wannabe", and also of creativity in general.

Best, M

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #105 on: June 20, 2012, 07:14:03 AM »
Since we are on that, do you know anything about Russian entire music life and system of education of the second half of the 19th century, what is Russian Nationalism, which role had Tchaikowski to do with that?

If you do, that would answer your questions about him to be a "wannabe", and also of creativity in general.

Best, M

How does this have anything to do with Western music? And Tchaikovksy's aspiring to emulate his GERMAN idol Mozart?

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #106 on: June 20, 2012, 07:25:58 AM »
Anyway the main  difference in opinion is that I believe a good pianist is both technical and creative. The main problem I have with Horowitz's statement is that I don't believe the pianists of today are the best type of pianists. For them a adding cadenz is playing someone elses improvisation. Of course I can't know if Mozart or Bach was a better pianist/keyboardist than the Jews/Russians/Chinese of today, but if I was going to a concert I'd like a composer pianist giving not only a technical rendition, but also wow-ing me with an amazing off the cuff improvisation. The ideal today seems to be a note perfect performance of another person's work. What 'great' pianists!

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #107 on: June 20, 2012, 07:37:28 AM »
Quote
Do you have any at least very basic idea as for the Jewish history of 18-19-20th century?

It was only after the Enlightenment that Jews mixed with the hostnations. And guess where the Jewish composers came from when they did?

Perhaps it's unfair to compare the pianists of today with those of the past. I think people in general are much less creative than they used to be. But education in general is focus on leftbrain. It's why girls do better at school and why people are less creative.

Why was Chopin such a great composer(and pianist)? He was educated by a German teacher who taught him not only past masters pieces but that improvisation was also important. I think if she hadn't he would have been like your average Eastern European/Russian pianist of today.

What's up with Chinese creativity? Their confucian education system and ideas don't stimulate creativity and having millenia of that isn't helpful.


Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #108 on: June 20, 2012, 07:53:29 AM »
How does this have anything to do with Western music? And Tchaikovksy's aspiring to emulate his GERMAN idol Mozart?

I hope you don't want to suggest Tchaikovsky was a mere imitator of Western technique, as some Western sources suggest? Western-oriented, yes, but Tchaikovsky's music is basically as Russian as can be. Actually, Marik1 gave you a task to do, which you cannot have fulfilled in such a short time. It is IMPOSSIBLE to understand everything that was and is said about Tchaikovsky without digging deep into the issues marik1 raised, and do the digging INDEPENDENTLY, preferably know more about Russian culture itself, and preferably read your sources in Russian. There are many purely linguistic details that REVERSE the translations we have in meaning.

What can we find out by doing this? We would know, that Tchaikovsky was absolutely self-sufficient as a composer, did NOT need the guidance of Balakirev and/or the "Mighty Five", did NOT have to compete with Rubinstein, etc. Actually, it was the "competition" that was jealous of Tchaikovsky. They knew how he worshipped the Czar like a Samurai, knew that Tchaikovsky would NEVER do anything that would grieve the Czar, knew that he was a devout church goer. How better SET such a person with so much influence UP than to create fairy tales, a combination of which eventually brought him to his suicide?

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #109 on: June 20, 2012, 08:06:46 AM »
Let's put it this way, I'm not a great fan of Tchaikovsky, I don't know his whole oeuvre just a few of his most famous works like Swan Lake. And when it's good it's very good, and certainly not inferior to Western music(especially of that time), but it sounds Western European when it is. I'm a sucker for melody, and IMO the further east you go, the more cacophonous it sounds

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #110 on: June 20, 2012, 08:13:23 AM »
Allow me to finish this with what I hope you take as a joke:

Tchaikovsky said and wrote some very anti-semitic things, so he cannot have been a Jewish pianist.

Tchaikovsky was set up by the competition. Deducing from the Russian sources, he cannot have been a gay pianist.

Conclusion: He must have been a bad pianist. ;)

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #111 on: June 20, 2012, 08:44:52 AM »
edit

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #112 on: June 20, 2012, 08:54:55 AM »
and he was gay

Yes, yes. He used lots of diminutive for names of men, for example. Tchaikovsky "experts" explain their innocent crowd that this is something typical of gays. Hereby they think they have found the key to signs in Tchaikovsky's diaries and correspondence of his being gay.

The only thing they actually do is show that they have been so ignorant as to not first study the basic elements of the Russian culture, because the diminutive is used for ANY person, gay or straight, man, woman or child, if you want to express somehow that you like them. I am Paul, so in Russian that will be Pavel, which becomes Pasha for ANYBODY who likes me without any hints at all at homosexuality or any other kind of sexual relationship.

Besides, the Russian words for chair, glass (for tea, etc.) are also used quite often in the diminutive, often to break the ice or to make the other person feel at ease. This has NOTHING to do with homosexuality of the person using the diminutive, unless the "expert" wants to say that all 150 million Russians who use the diminutive are all gay.

What they prefer to hide from the crowd is that Tchaikovsky at least twice contracted "intimate diseases" from the use of the services of female prostitutes. Of course, that would not look too good for the gay doctrine, especially since they find the thought of a woman in itself despicable.

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #113 on: June 20, 2012, 09:08:50 AM »
Quote
What they prefer to hide from the crowd is that Tchaikovsky at least twice contracted "intimate diseases" from the use of the services of female prostitutes
.

Hmm, so he hides his gayness but flaunts going to prostitutes and contracting veneral diseases? And I thought Tchaikovsky was secretive about his private life

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #114 on: June 20, 2012, 09:13:35 AM »
.

Hmm, so he hides his gayness but flaunts going to prostitutes and contracting veneral diseases? And I thought Tchaikovsky was secretive about his private life

There is lots of contradiction; too much for comfort, and too much to believe what I was told in Holland about Tchaikovsky.

Excuses are never hard to find if the cause is "right". Some tragic historical examples of similar thinking ("We don't need no proof because what we were told is right"):

Girls and women in the Middle Ages who looked like our contemporary photo models were burned because everybody assumed they were witches. The perpetrators had no trouble finding excuses for and distract attention from what they had done because they believed what they had been told and trusted the Creator of the Lie. But who cares, right? It's not important because it was long ago.

People were systematically killed for even thinking the Earth could be round; everybody assumed it was flat. The perpetrators had no trouble finding excuses for and distract attention from what they had done because they believed what they had been told and trusted the Creator of the Lie. But who cares, right? It's not important because it was long ago.

There were no neuclear boms in a certain country X, but still a coalition of forces from [as they like to call themselves] developed countries ruined that country because they assumed there were. The perpetrators had no trouble finding excuses for and distract attention from what they did because they believed what they had been told and trusted the Creator of the Lie. But who cares, right? It's not important because country X is far away from our bed anyway.

Moral: Before you believe what you are told and start trusting the Creator of any Idea, better check independently, or you run the risk of becoming a zombie.

Paul
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Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #115 on: June 20, 2012, 10:16:29 AM »
[Off-topic]

I would like to quote a funny story that illustrates how one can go astray with the conlusions when one has to translate Russian into English.

Just imagine: Cold War, propaganda to and fro.

When Khrushchev used the phrase "My pokazhem vam kuz'kinu mat'!" in a talk with Nixon in 1959, the American translator did not know what to do with it, so with a serious face he translated it literally: "We will show you the Mother of Kuz'ma!". The American delegation understood immediately that this must have been a new kind of secret Soviet weapon, shook their heads in disbelief, and started rubbing their hands with glee. But actually, the translator should just have said: "We will show you (something)!", which is a regular English expression with a certain threat, boasting, or promise in it...

[End of Off-topic]

Paul
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Offline counterpoint

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #116 on: June 20, 2012, 10:41:46 AM »
If Horowitz' claim is true, Liberace was not a bad pianist  :D

If it doesn't work - try something different!

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #117 on: June 20, 2012, 11:50:46 AM »
Quote
Moral: Before you believe what you are told and start trusting the Creator of any Idea, better check independently, or you run the risk of becoming a zombie

Even without the gossip/rumors etc
His marriage of convenience, looking for role models in (other) women, the very dubious circumstances of his death. This to me adds up to beyond reasonable doubt, the only thing lacking is that he liked men giving him a bj, but even without that he's a paragon of gayness.

Also Russia's attitude towards homosexuality and its sole refusal to admit Tchaikovsky was (when the rest of the world accepts he was), suggests it's probably more to do with Russia's backwardness than anything that's grounded on fact.

BTW does Russia have ANY known homosexual men(writers, poets, musicians, scientists, painters, etc), or does mother Russia not spawn any homosexuals

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #118 on: June 20, 2012, 12:14:08 PM »
BTW does Russia have ANY known homosexual men(writers, poets, musicians, scientists, painters, etc), or does mother Russia not spawn any homosexuals

Of course it has. Just have a look in the wiki celebrities list. There were gays who openly admitted that, and I accept that as a given without any discrimination towards them. If someone starts lying about them (about something else than their being gay), I will also react, because that's who I am.

Some explanations for marriages of convenience:
1) I need someone to manage my business affairs
2) I need a maid around the house
3) Although I prefer my indepence as a man, I need someone really fast to make them at least stop the gossip because this is ruining my reputation

Some explanations for looking for a role model in women:
1) Oedipus complex (excessive devotion towards the mother)
1) A very dominant mother (you look for someone like your mother, but with the result that afterwards, you explain everything your spouse does as an attempt to be your "second mother", which is unbearable and makes any serious relationship with any other woman impossible)
2) A tragic "puppy love" he didn't overcome (trying to look for one who looks like her without looking deeper)

Some explanations for his death (assuming it was suicide):
1) Suicide because of unbearable Oedipus complex + artistic insecurity problems
2) Suicide because of the Samurai code in regards to the Czar, who took the gossips very seriously.
etc.

I'm sure it's not that difficult to find some other explanations.

P.S.: When you look at the evidence and you negate the main assumption that he was gay, then suddenly you realize that this must have been all a dirty set-up.

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #119 on: June 20, 2012, 12:19:01 PM »
BTW does Russia have ANY known homosexual men(writers, poets, musicians, scientists, painters, etc), or does mother Russia not spawn any homosexuals

Amongst musicians, Richter does spring to mind.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #120 on: June 20, 2012, 12:26:02 PM »
Amongst musicians, Richter does spring to mind.

Any evidence, please? He NEVER admitted being gay, which should be the main parameter to make such a statement. There were rumors, but rumors are not facts. Youri Egorov openly admitted it as a fact, so it is OK to mention him.

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #121 on: June 20, 2012, 12:31:23 PM »
Any evidence, please? He's not on the gay celebrity list and NEVER admitted being gay, which should be the main parameter to make such a statement. There were rumors, but rumors are not facts. Youri Egorov openly admitted it as a fact, so it is OK to mention him.

Paul

http://www.amazon.com/Sviatoslav-Richter-Karl-Aage-Rasmussen/dp/1555537103

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #122 on: June 20, 2012, 12:58:00 PM »
http://www.amazon.com/Sviatoslav-Richter-Karl-Aage-Rasmussen/dp/1555537103

Did you read that book? What's in there? Is there an interview there, where Richter admits that? I find that (not so) funny, because I met Sviatoslav Teofilovich on several occasions. He couldn't have known I was married. Besides, I'm actually, what they say, a cute guy. Why didn't he try to make a move on me? I didn't have that impression, really. I'd rather think that anybody who dared raise such a question would lie dead on the floor, rather than Richter admitting such a thing. I'm very surprised to say the least and I have trouble believing it for a fact.

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #123 on: June 20, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »
No, I've not read the book, but it is (I believe) the first book to actively tackle the subject.

Your anecdote seems to be based on a cliched view of male gay activity i.e. they'll hit on anyone attractive. And Richter was allegedly married too, to Nina Dorliac (or was he? there is some doubt over that).

Shura Cherkassky was gay - and married - also, fwiw. I don't see the problem regarding their orientations. Nikolai Zverev's alleged predilictions (or for that matter, those of Eugen d'Albert - who was very definitely straight), are however a different matter altogether.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #124 on: June 20, 2012, 01:18:25 PM »
I don't see the problem regarding their orientations.

That's the standard cliche when one starts asking for facts. So what? The next automatic cliche is that it is ME, who has to prove that they were NOT gay.

If it's not really a fact, then it matters. I would gather that has a certain influence on the artist, so it MUST be important. Besides, in some cultures it is a taboo, whether you find that backward, or not.

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #125 on: June 20, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »
Besides, in some cultures it is a taboo, whether you find that backward, or not.

Indeed: (if we assume that book is correct) that is one of the reasons Richter would not be likely to admit to it - if anything, it makes his achievements greater.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #126 on: June 20, 2012, 01:27:42 PM »
if anything, it makes his achievements greater.

I can imagine that if you look at it with the eyes of the gay community. Some people who are not part of that community may be shocked and think the reverse. Of course, those do not have a right to be shocked, even if it is only a rumor, but that's another problem...

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #127 on: June 20, 2012, 01:30:09 PM »

Some explanations for looking for a role model in women:
1) Oedipus complex (excessive devotion of the mother)
1) A very dominant mother (you look for someone like your mother, but with the result that afterwards, you explain everything your spouse does as an attempt to be your "second mother", which is unbearable and makes any serious relationship with any other woman impossible)
2) A tragic "puppy love" he didn't overcome (trying to look for one who looks like her without looking deeper)

But WOMEN being major influences in a man's life, surely a heterosexual male looks for male rolemodels, regardless of the dominance of the mother. Surely an Oedipuscomplex is irrelevant to not having male rolemodels. IMO rolemodels are to help you develop sexually, examples of how you should act with the other sex, if you look to other women, well...


Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #128 on: June 20, 2012, 01:35:29 PM »
surely a heterosexual male looks for male rolemodels

I'm not so sure that he had trouble with finding male rolemodels. I have the impression that his one and only role model in men was the Czar. Look at his photos; he could have been the Czar himself. When the Czar - as the role model of the missed father - started believing the gossips seriously, Tchaikovsky broke down (who wouldn't in such a desperate situation?)

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #129 on: June 20, 2012, 01:36:18 PM »
if anything, it makes his achievements greater.
I can imagine that if you look at it with the eyes of the gay community. Some people who are not part of that community may be shocked and think the reverse.

It's their problem if they want to find it shocking. I'm not looking at it with the eyes of the gay community, and I, as a straight person, think it enhances his achievements. I know he was a strong character, but he must have had to suppress so much, and doubtless suffer internal conflicts.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #130 on: June 20, 2012, 01:38:09 PM »
It's their problem if they want to find it shocking.

Even if it turns out NOT to be true?

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #131 on: June 20, 2012, 01:44:12 PM »
Exactly what is that you (or these hypothetical people who are "not part of the gay community" find shocking? The notion that great artistic figure X is homosexual?

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #132 on: June 20, 2012, 01:45:17 PM »
I'm not so sure that he had trouble with finding male rolemodels. I have the impression that his one and only role model in men was the Czar. Look at his photos; he could have been the Czar himself. When the Czar - as the role model of the missed father - started believing the gossips seriously, Tchaikovsky broke down (who wouldn't in such a desperate situation?)

Paul

If I was Tchaikovsky and not gay and people were slandering me, I'd say, ok, bring me 6 really hot women to my bedroom and then we shall see who's gay. Easy to resolve, unless of course you are gay, then it's sad that in a backward place like Russia people are driven to suicide over their sexuality

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #133 on: June 20, 2012, 01:52:49 PM »
If I was Tchaikovsky and not gay and people were slandering me, I'd say, ok, bring me 6 really hot women to my bedroom and then we shall see who's gay.

 :) I genuinely lol-ed at that.

it's sad that in a backward place like Russia people are driven to suicide over their sexuality

Product of the times, perhaps. UK (where I'm from) can't be very proud of what happened to Alan Turing.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #134 on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:12 PM »
Exactly what is that you (or these hypothetical people who are "not part of the gay community" find shocking? The notion that great artistic figure X is homosexual?

I'd like to reverse the question: What is so GREAT about it if figure X *is* homosexual to even mention it? "It's not important." "It's his or her personal life." The argument that it is "irrelevant", however, seems to be a prerogative only for people who use it against a person who DOUBTS there is anything particularly great in it. "Not politically correct" and so on. The very fact that even the person himself, who is wrongly accused, may be offended is too absurd to even discuss. No, he/she should be PROUD, even if it is not true.

On the other hand, nobody cares how many maidens exactly Schubert raped, for example.

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #135 on: June 20, 2012, 02:01:30 PM »
You answer my question, and I'll answer yours. Fair?

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #136 on: June 20, 2012, 02:08:40 PM »
You answer my question, and I'll answer yours. Fair?

Fair. Let's say Richter is my son's role model of everything a man should be. Even if I don't want it to happen, at school they are indoctrinated with certain role models, and homosexuality is NOT part of it, whether you like it or not. Now, his hero turns out to be "one of those". How do you think that affects a child's soul and inner world? Russia is full with such souls, who can't help it they have such a culture. How can any person in a free country even begin to understand what it is to be in such a society yourself and decide for them what is good and what not?

Paul
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Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #137 on: June 20, 2012, 02:34:01 PM »
To start first with the questions your response raises:

How can any person in a free country even begin to understand what it is to be in such a society yourself and decide for them what is good and what not?

Point taken, of course I can't, and it's not for me to pass judgement.

However I would suggest that, in the very long term, a more "evolved" (for better or for worse) society is one which has come to term with these issues. Do you really suppose (to give more conventional role models) every footballer, boxer, ice hockey player is straight? It just goes against statistics. I can believe the percentage of gay sportsmen is lower than in the main population, simply because they may find the associated machismo pushes them away, but I'm sure they exist, albeit keeping it quiet.

I'd like to reverse the question: What is so GREAT about it if figure X *is* homosexual to even mention it? "It's not important." "It's his or her personal life." The argument that it is "irrelevant", however, seems to be a prerogative only for people who use it against a person who DOUBTS there is anything particularly great in it.

No, there's nothing "great" about it. I wouldn't even have mentioned it bar for the context of the thread. There have been sackloads of gay musicians, some of them good, some of them bad, and there will continue to be. The argument that it is irrelevant shouldn't be used against anyone as a mechanism to prove them "politically incorrect" or whatever horrible attempt at an insulting epithet - it should just stand on its own as a statement of fact. It may have some societal relevance in the context of the musician's life, but I can't see other relevance: it's not like gay musicians play "pretty girly pieces" or whatever cliche you wish to apply.

The very fact that even the person himself, who is wrongly accused, may be offended is too absurd to even discuss. No, he/she should be PROUD, even if it is not true.

Yes, agreed with you here; I view the aggressive appropriation of certain musicians, artistic figures, etc by more militant "activists" with some distaste. In the case of Richter, the rumours have been around for a long long time; as you say that doesn't automatically make them true, but they are persistent and if you really have proof they are false I can only suggest you find Mr Rasmussen's email and set him straight (pardon the pun).

Offline p2u_

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #138 on: June 20, 2012, 02:44:05 PM »
Do you really suppose (to give more conventional role models) every footballer, boxer, ice hockey player is straight?

Nope. I only react when people are wrongly credited for certain qualities, which tend to distort my picture of their personality. If someone is gay, and he/she is suddenly announced hetero, I will react in exacty the same way.
P.S.: Thanks for your balanced reply.

Paul
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #139 on: June 20, 2012, 03:26:43 PM »
Alan Turing.

Good example, another 'Tchaikovsky',forced by the secret police to commit suicide .

Offline marik1

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #140 on: June 20, 2012, 05:30:24 PM »
Anyway the main  difference in opinion...


Dear Forte88,

I will have to disappoint you, opinion can be called OPINION only if it is based on facts and knowledge. So far you did not give one single fact or evidence to support your allegations. Sure, you might wish to see pianists improvising candenzas, etc.--that's your right, however, to say that pianists who don't do it less creative, or accuse entire Russian school of lack of creativity is little... how should I put it?... careless.

I'd suggest you open some books, essays, papers, and start reading and studying. A good start would be R. Taruskin, Defining Russia Musically.

Then in fact, you might discover entire new world of amazing creativity of Russian composers (BTW, many of which were self taught), who invented entire new genres of music; put Russian music apart from Western, created completely new musical language; developed a musical version of orientalism; created new ways of musical development; created new modes and tools to depict incredible imaginaries of Russian life; created new stylizations in which the melody wanders between different tonal centers, creating a very special logic of harmonic progressions.

Russian music is essentially melodic, so if you are sucker for melody, as you say, I'd suggest to start studying operas by Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Borodin, Rimsky Korsakov.

If after all of that you still have any doubts about Russian composers creativity, then study music of Mussorgsky, Arensky, Taneev, Scriabin, Medtner, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Shostakowitch, among others.

While on that you might also want to make some reading about Russian educational system. Read about pedagogical principles of brothers Rubinstein, Safonov, Zverev, Taneev, Siloti, Blumenfeld, Glazunov, Igumnov, Goldenweiser, Feinberg, Neuhaus, Flier, Zak, Oborin, Naumov, Artobolevskaja and other Russian music educators, who throughout the years have defined entire system or Russian pianistic education, so you will have somewhat more enlightened idea about "forcefed" and "disciplined creativity". Some memoires would tremendously help to get the facts straight and "first hand".

After that please come back so we could finally resume and have some intelligent discussion about Russian music and its creativity, instead of you presenting some empty and unsupported allegations, with no any substance or evidence, and which in your mind supposed to be an "opinion".

Best, M

Offline marik1

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #141 on: June 20, 2012, 08:00:09 PM »


Why was Chopin such a great composer(and pianist)? He was educated by a German teacher who taught him not only past masters pieces but that improvisation was also important.

Any chance for a source of this information and the name of that mysterious German teacher? Last I checked (but have to admit, that was looong time ago, so my memory might be pretty rusty) Chopin received most of his education with Wojciech Zhyvny (who was Czech), and then later with Joseph Elsner, who was born in Poland and spent there most of his life.

And Tchaikovksy's aspiring to emulate his GERMAN idol Mozart?

Since when Mozart became GERMAN? Last I checked (again, it was very loooong ago) he was Austrian. This is besides the point that the idea of "Tchaikowsky aspiring to EMULATE" Mozart to me is completely new. Any chance for a source of this information? Or to you Tchaikowsky sounds "just like Mozart"?

Best, M

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #142 on: June 20, 2012, 08:20:43 PM »
Any chance for a source of this information and the name of that mysterious German teacher?

Perhaps he meant "almost" taught by a German teacher, but thankfully Chopin escaped the clutches of Kalkbrenner.

Thal
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Offline ahinton

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #143 on: June 20, 2012, 10:19:27 PM »
Perhaps he meant "almost" taught by a German teacher, but thankfully Chopin escaped the clutches of Kalkbrenner.
And, since you mention Chopin here, it is a fact that, even as something of an anti-Semite himself, he befriended and respected Alkan (although I am aware of scant evidence that his regard for Alkan's music quite matched his regard for him personally).

The legendary comment ascribed to Horowitz sadly appears to disregard the possibilities that
(a) certain Jewish pianists could also be gay, or bad, or even both
(b) one does not have to be gay to be a bad pianist, a bad pianist in order to be gay or indeed either in order to qualify as Jewish.

Best,

Alistair
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Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #144 on: June 21, 2012, 02:28:07 AM »
Hmm, it looks like I've unwittingly opened up a Pandora's box of some sorts. Every time I try to close it, a head of some mediocre Russian composer pops out and greets me with obscene expletives. I'm no connaisseur of music, but I'm a lover of music in the truest sense. I'm sure Russians are good at a lot of things, but please no classical music!
Great for pianists that like to show off their virtuosic piano skills,but for the actual listening to, nope I don't think so.

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #145 on: June 21, 2012, 02:38:42 AM »
Quote
Any chance for a source of this information and the name of that mysterious German teacher? Last I checked (but have to admit, that was looong time ago, so my memory might be pretty rusty) Chopin received most of his education with Wojciech Zhyvny (who was Czech), and then later with Joseph Elsner, who was born in Poland and spent there most of his life.

No source just my own inexhaustible source of tales and tittelations. If you really want to press me for a source, all I can give you is: it was in the same book that told how Chopin build a contraption to elongate his fingers when he was a child(Schumann apparantly later on inspired to do the same broke his fingers in the proces).
I don't even really know if she was German, or that she employed German methods??? who cares. what matters is she taught Chopin Bach, Mozart and impressed on the young Chopin the value of improvisation

Offline forte88

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #146 on: June 21, 2012, 02:41:39 AM »
Quote
Or to you Tchaikowsky sounds "just like Mozart

Only when he's at his very, very best

Offline j_menz

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #147 on: June 21, 2012, 03:05:59 AM »
my own inexhaustible source

One can only hope that that is hyperbole in the extreme.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline marik1

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #148 on: June 21, 2012, 03:21:26 AM »
No source just my own inexhaustible source of tales and tittelations. If you really want to press me for a source, all I can give you is: it was in the same book that told how Chopin build a contraption to elongate his fingers when he was a child(Schumann apparantly later on inspired to do the same broke his fingers in the proces).
I don't even really know if she was German, or that she employed German methods??? who cares. what matters is she taught Chopin Bach, Mozart and impressed on the young Chopin the value of improvisation

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thanks for a good laugh--this one was particularly funny!

I don't even really know if there ever was "she". Who cares. What matters is Chopin always had male teachers, which looks suspicious... Oooops... did I open another can of warms?

Enjoy your German Mozart as only true music lovers can do!

Best, M

Offline j_menz

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Re: Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?
«Reply #149 on: June 21, 2012, 03:31:00 AM »
I don't even really know if there ever was "she". Who cares. What matters is Chopin always had male teachers, which looks suspicious... Oooops... did I open another can of worms?

I always thought George was a funny name for a female.  ;D
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant