Horowitz "there are only Jewish, gay, and bad pianists" - true?

[p2u_]

I don't even really know if there ever was "she". Who cares.

I (fighter for the rights of, mostly already dead, underdogs ) always seem to care about things nobody cares about, especially in this thread, but actually there was one "she"; his sister, Ludwika, who must have been his very first teacher. Unfortunately, she is rarely mentioned. I'm sure she did a VERY good job and that she was Chopin's main influence.

Paul

[j_menz]

I (fighter for the rights of the underdog) always seem to care about things nobody cares about, especially in this thread, but actually there was one "she"; his sister, Ludwika, who must have been his very first teacher. Unfortunately, she is rarely mentioned. I'm sure she did a VERY good job and that she was Chopin's main influence.

Paul

I believe that also it is to her, in part at least, to whom we all are indebted for preserving many of Chopin's works after his death, contrary to his own instructions.

[ahinton]

No source just my own inexhaustible source of tales and tittelations.

So when is a source not a source? And what are "tittelations"?

Best,

Alistair

[forte88]

I don't even really know if there ever was "she". Who cares. What matters is Chopin always had male teachers, which looks suspicious... Oooops... did I open another can of warms?



Best, M

I'm actually in dubio about Chopin. But not coz he got taught by a female from a very young age, that's irrelevant. My point wasn't that a man couldn't learn anything from a female without being a homosexual, it was about having female rolemodels. To me Chopin is a close call, but IMO he's as close as a heterosexual can get to being homosexual without actually being it. And what if he was? What if he not only liked men, but liked em younger than Tchaikovsky, diaper-assed? For me it wouldn't make the slightest difference, I like his music a lot, that's all that matters to me.

Enjoy your German Mozart as only true music lovers can do!

What do you know about German history? When Hitler was chosen chancellor of Germany, I'm sure the Germans that voted him in as German, the Austrians who chose Anschluss(unanimous decision) , would consider Austria German. I'm sure Mozart considered himself German.
I came to classical music of my own accord('nowhere you can be isn't where you're meant to be'), my first love was actually the Beatles(I am a sucker for melody;)) . I didn't write if you liked Mozart you were a true music lover, some people use music as a social tool, like some people have a ridiculously expensive piano in their luxerious mansion and never even play on it, just for affectation. I'm a lover a music no pretense for me

[p2u_]

I'm actually in dubio about Chopin. But not coz he got taught by a female from a very young age, that's irrelevant.

You keep calling things that are really relevant - "irrelevant", but it could actually have been his sister (a very close relative who was around him every day) who taught him to improvise, which you misquoted as something some obscure German female teacher did. How can that NOT be relevant for our understanding of who Chopin was and how good he was at improvising?

I also have trouble with your continuously drawing everything into perversity. Even if Chopin had trouble with women, there may be other reasons than the ones you quote. Suppose he saw his sister taking a bath, and gosh, she was just "rebooting her ovarian operating system"? This can be quite a shock for a small child to see, you know, and cause fear of women, without necessarily meaning that he (or his sister) "liked them diaper-assed". Don't limit yourself in your thinking with your own assumptions!

Paul

[p2u_]

@ forte88

You may be thinking by now that I am continuously stalking you in attempts to attack you, but this is not true. Here's my chance to show you that I'm also capable of defending your point of view:
You are quite right about Mozart's feeling himself more German than Austrian. There are even territorial arguments that support your view. This is in line with the sources.
Letter: On Mozart; A German, Not Austrian, Composer.

Paul

[forte88]

You keep calling things that are really relevant - "irrelevant", but it could actually have been his sister (a very close relative who was around him every day) who taught him to improvise, which you misquoted as something some obscure German female teacher did. How can that NOT be relevant for our understanding of who Chopin was and how good he was at improvising?

I'm not a classical scholar, I'm more of an ecclectic. Anyway like the ad hominem in a debate I'm more interested in what's being said than who said it, whoever it was that taught him at a young age, it wasn't someone that myself and most people that know Chopin have ever heard of. No historical figure, the only claim to fame would be that she taught Chopin, but considering most people weren't even aware that he had a female teacher that taught him Bach etc, and the value of improvisation(anyone even aware of the fingerelongation-contraption?) for me it's what Chopin learnt and how that influenced his composing that matters, ergo: irrelevant.

I also have trouble with your continuously drawing everything into perversity. Even if Chopin had trouble with women, there may be other reasons than the ones you quote. Suppose he saw his sister taking a bath, and gosh, she was just "rebooting her ovarian operating system"? This can be quite a shock for a small child to see, you know, and cause fear of women, without necessarily meaning that he (or his sister) "liked them diaper-assed". Don't limit yourself in your thinking with your own assumptions!

All I wrote was as mentioned above, I don't care what sexual preferences composers have, as I wrote previously, I'm a musiclover, I don't like composers because of their nationality, religion, sexuality, or because I want to make a good impression with a peer group. If the music sucks, I don't care how many 'experts' say they're the greatest composers of all time, I have my own opinions, music is really all that matters to me

[p2u_]

I'm more interested in what's being said than who said it

No offense meant, but in what you write, though, you often give the impression that you don't read enough beautiful prose, that you only read to gather necessary information in whatever form, that you don't appreciate the beauty and the strength of words enough, and that takes away from the real opinion you want to communicate, because this affects your writing style. But that may be my own problem; I feel that on the Internet, too much is written without giving it much thought.

I'm a musiclover, I don't like composers because of their nationality, religion, sexuality, or because I want to make a good impression with a peer group.

The same applies to me. If I like it, I will say it. If I don't, I rather have a tendency not to say anything at all than to offend other people who may very well like it. Besides, if it's said without good arguments, then it may just confuse other people. I'm sure that's not your intention.

If the music sucks, I don't care how many 'experts' say they're the greatest composers of all time, I have my own opinions, music is really all that matters to me

Same here, but just saying "it sucks" without giving reasons is something that may hurt you in your future business in real life.

Paul

[forte88]

No offense meant, but in what you write, though, you often give the impression that you don't read enough beautiful prose, that you only read to gather necessary information in whatever form, that you don't appreciate the beauty and the strength of words enough, and that takes away from the real opinion you want to communicate, because this affects your writing style

If you say so....but seriously, I've read some really beautiful prose, real tearjerkers, I've written some beauties myself, but reserve that for only the seediest of places, I doubt if pianostreet would have the stomach for it

[p2u_]

If you say so....but seriously, I've read some really beautiful prose, real tearjerkers, I've written some beauties myself, but reserve that for only the seediest of places, I doubt if pianostreet would have the stomach for it

I was not referring to story lines and their complexity; more to word usage, but OK, like I said, it's probably my problem.

Paul

[forte88]

I see my verbosity dazzles your intellect too much, I beg your pretty pardon

[forte88]

I genuinely lol-ed at that.

Or 1*3 But Not a second time

[marik1]

I'm actually in dubio about Chopin. But not coz he got taught by a female from a very young age, that's irrelevant. My point wasn't that a man couldn't learn anything from a female without being a homosexual, it was about having female rolemodels. To me Chopin is a close call, but IMO he's as close as a heterosexual can get to being homosexual without actually being it. And what if he was? What if he not only liked men, but liked em younger than Tchaikovsky, diaper-assed? For me it wouldn't make the slightest difference, I like his music a lot, that's all that matters to me.

What do you know about German history? When Hitler was chosen chancellor of Germany, I'm sure the Germans that voted him in as German, the Austrians who chose Anschluss(unanimous decision) , would consider Austria German. I'm sure Mozart considered himself German.
I came to classical music of my own accord('nowhere you can be isn't where you're meant to be'), my first love was actually the Beatles(I am a sucker for melody;)) . I didn't write if you liked Mozart you were a true music lover, some people use music as a social tool, like some people have a ridiculously expensive piano in their luxerious mansion and never even play on it, just for affectation. I'm a lover a music no pretense for me

Hi Forte88,

I've seen true music lovers--the people who love, know, and can talk about music. I am sure you are knowledgable and educated person in some fields, but unfortunately, clearly, classical music is not one of those and at present there is a big mess going on in your head. Once again, before talking something about "creativity", different schools, or "When at his best Tchaikowski sounds just like Mozart", I'd strongly urge you to educate yourself first... at least just to be able to give some more or less relevant or intelligent arguments. Besides, knowledge is good. That's the knowledge what allows us to understand what is a true love.

Best, M

[forte88]

Hi Forte88,

Once again, before talking something about "creativity", different schools, or "When at his best Tchaikowski sounds just like Mozart", I'd strongly urge you to educate yourself first... at least just to be able to give some more or less relevant or intelligent arguments. Besides, knowledge is good. That's the knowledge what allows us to understand what is a true love.

Best, M

See for me all that matter is how it sounds, I don't care about the bla bla around it. You start off with a string quartet I'll match it, symphonies, fugues etc?

You say Russia's better, I say Germany, game on!

[forte88]

The misunderstanding keeps popping up. I don't think there's anything wrong with starting children at age 3 like in Russia and China(I started playing piano when I was almost 28), I learnt guitar a lot younger, and I can tell how much more natural a guitar feels eventhough I rarely play. Perhaps it's got something to do with intelligence. The further east the more studied the people become but less creative. Because it's centred more on the collective.Western Europe is more individual, always has been, always will(this is why the Euro is such a disaster)be. Germany to me represents the perfect balance of mind and creativity. Go further south from Germany with the temperature the passions flair, more melody and less counterpoint, same when to the west. Go East it becomes more intellect, hence the quality of the music imo deteriorates and when you reach China all hope is lost.(Japan chose the side of the West after WWII or maybe had to/occupation force).
I'm speaking stricktly music of course, but I think classical music is the balance between the 3 parts(the chariot metaphor of Socrates/Plato or the reptilian/mamilian/neo-cortex). For some other types of music there's more emotion, for example like the pop/rock/folkmusic). I don't know why certain longitudes/latitudes matter for the people, but you can tell by music that it definitely does

[marik1]

See for me all that matter is how it sounds, I don't care about the bla bla around it.  

Music is a language. As with any language, in order to understand it one should study it. In order to know "how it sounds" one at least needs to know what to listen for. For you the knowledge is bla bla (which its seems in your mind is the sign of "true love"). I am afraid I cannot be of help here.

You say Russia's better, I say Germany, game on!

Sorry, I would never say such a stupid nonsense that either one is better (or worse, for that matter).

The misunderstanding keeps popping up. I don't think there's anything wrong with starting children at age 3 like in Russia and China(I started playing piano when I was almost 28), I learnt guitar a lot younger, and I can tell how much more natural a guitar feels eventhough I rarely play. Perhaps it's got something to do with intelligence. The further east the more studied the people become but less creative. Because it's centred more on the collective.Western Europe is more individual, always has been, always will(this is why the Euro is such a disaster)be. Germany to me represents the perfect balance of mind and creativity. Go further south from Germany with the temperature the passions flair, more melody and less counterpoint, same when to the west. Go East it becomes more intellect, hence the quality of the music imo deteriorates and when you reach China all hope is lost.(Japan chose the side of the West after WWII or maybe had to/occupation force).
I'm speaking stricktly music of course, but I think classical music is the balance between the 3 parts(the chariot metaphor of Socrates/Plato or the reptilian/mamilian/neo-cortex). For some other types of music there's more emotion, for example like the pop/rock/folkmusic). I don't know why certain longitudes/latitudes matter for the people, but you can tell by music that it definitely does

I have already asked you a few times, but you were never able to present one single fact, evidence, or just even a single name to support any of those allegations. As such all of that is just empty fantasies brewing in your head. Next time try something more interesting.

Best, M

[j_menz]

I see my verbosity dazzles your intellect too much, I beg your pretty pardon

I'm not sure "dazzles" is the word I'd use. 

[p2u_]

The further east the more studied the people become but less creative.

Hi, forte88!

I've been to lots of places in the world, but up to now, I've NEVER seen a people more creative than the Russians in just about ANYTHING they do. Creative in the sense of finding working solutions that at first sight seem impossible, illogical, etc. It's not a coincidence that many great chess players come from here. Intelligence alone is not enough to play good chess, neither is an incredible memory like, for example, Kasparov's, and neither is hard work. It's inspiration and creativity. Ask any grandmaster.

Paul

[forte88]

Hi, forte88!

I've been to lots of places in the world, but up to now, I've NEVER seen a people more creative than the Russians in just about ANYTHING they do. Creative in the sense of finding working solutions that at first sight seem impossible, illogical, etc. It's not a coincidence that many great chess players come from here. Intelligence alone is not enough to play good chess, neither is an incredible memory like, for example, Kasparov's, and neither is hard work. It's inspiration and creativity. Ask any grandmaster.

Paul

I see, so that's why Deep Blue( a computer FYI) beat Kasparov, so creative...., perhaps Chinese would be better chess players but in Russia it's a national sport, again it only proves my point, thanks!

[p2u_]

I see, so that's why Deep Blue( a computer FYI) beat Kasparov, so creative...., perhaps Chinese would be better chess players but in Russia it's a national sport, again it only proves my point, thanks!

Why the Chinese? That's even further east, so far less creative (not my words). You surely know of some German who won from Deep Blue?
P.S.: Brute force (a machine evaluating 200 million positions per second) is not doable for ANY person, so your argument falls; it compares apples with oranges.

Paul

[marik1]

I see, so that's why Deep Blue( a computer FYI) beat Kasparov, so creative...., perhaps Chinese would be better chess players but in Russia it's a national sport, again it only proves my point, thanks!

Wow, so far you were not able to put even one single fact straight, wishfully thinking your fantasies prove your points.

FYI, there were two matches Between Kasparov and Deep Blue. In the first match (let's forget about two draws) Kasparov won 3 games and lost 1.
In the second (again let's forget about 3 draws) Kasparov won 1 and lost 2. That being said, in the game 2 Kasparov accused IBM in cheating and resigned, demanding rematch, but IBM refused (!!!). The later analysis of the game showed that game would've been a draw.

So just make some basic math to see how many games won Kasparov and how many Deep Blue and next time please check your sources before posting.

Best, M
 

[p2u_]

Wow, so far you were not able to put even one single fact straight, wishfully thinking your fantasies prove your points.

How could he? The argument will always fall. I'm from there (Europe I mean). Europeans (especially Germans) initially have more self-discipline because "the law is the law, and instructions are instructions". I will speak for my own people not to offend anyone. Tell a Dutch engineer to turn a bolt three and a half times, and he will follow the instructions literally. Tell that to a Russian, and he will try to see what happens if he turns it 4 times (against the instructions that is). What the Russians (and probably also the Chinese) initially lack in inner discipline is compensated by a group discipline, otherwise it becomes unmanageable. The "eastern" system was never created to suppress creativity at all. That's my view, but it's open to correction.

Paul

[j_menz]

I'm from there (Europe I mean). Europeans (especially Germans) initially have more self-discipline

Except when it comes to matters fiscal. 

[marik1]

Tell that to a Russian, and he will try to see what happens if he turns it 4 times (against the instructions that is).

Ahaha, most likely the factory will be out of correct bolts, so the parts will be held by some kind of adhesive (for example chewing gum), or they'd find a way of using there bolt of different thread and pitch... Definitely, nobody would ever bother about such nonsenses as 3.5 turns

Best, M

[p2u_]

@ marik1

Actually, I'm surprised forte88 does not even think of elements like "hardships" the people live in to explain the difference. Probably his "sources" find that "irrelevant". Many people as I see here are still on step 1 or 2 on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, so they HAVE TO BE GOOD AND CREATIVE to get out of the sorrow they are in. Same goes for China. In the West (in Holland at least), you always have something to fall back on, so what the heck?

Paul

[forte88]

Wow, so far you were not able to put even one single fact straight, wishfully thinking your fantasies prove your points.

FYI, there were two matches Between Kasparov and Deep Blue. In the first match (let's forget about two draws) Kasparov won 3 games and lost 1.
In the second (again let's forget about 3 draws) Kasparov won 1 and lost 2. That being said, in the game 2 Kasparov accused IBM in cheating and resigned, demanding rematch, but IBM refused (!!!). The later analysis of the game showed that game would've been a draw.

So just make some basic math to see how many games won Kasparov and how many Deep Blue and next time please check your sources before posting.

Best, M
 

Don't you mean when the computer was still in its infancy in 1995?, when you could hardly even multitask, and a few pornpics would have filled up the whole harddisk. Ok, then you're right, now Kasparov abviously wouldn't dare with the processing power computers have today, yeah, yeah, blabla, the usual Russian excuse, propaganda, lies, cheating. Always accusing others of it when they're worldchampions at it in practise. Of course he refuses the challenge today he would lose, just like you don't want a match on the worth of Russian compositions vs German coz you know you would lose. That's ok, you're not fooling anyone, just perhaps yourself
 I think there's more creativity in amateur chessplayers anyway coz then every move is thought about, chessmasters sometimes don't even have to think coz it's on their 'harddisk'.Automatic reactions.

[forte88]

@ marik1

Actually, I'm surprised forte88 does not even think of elements like "hardships" the people live in to explain the difference. Probably his "sources" find that "irrelevant". Many people as I see here are still on step 1 or 2 on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, so they HAVE TO BE GOOD AND CREATIVE to get out of the sorrow they are in. Same goes for China. In the West (in Holland at least), you always have something to fall back on, so what the heck?

Paul

Yeah very creative, the 'creative' Russians have all made their money and fled the country, the rest just lamely drink vodka and blame their misery on the West.Also creativity is individual, the way you guys group together is indicative of lack of originality due to groupthink. Í was talking about music anyway, it's a different quality of creativity than say swindeling a person

[p2u_]

Yeah very creative, the 'creative' Russians have all made their money and fled the country, the rest just lamely drink vodka and blame their misery on the West.

You are talking to one of your own people, forte88, don't forget that. I have no hidden agenda. You are just trying to win an argument you can't win. You cannot judge about a country and its people unless you have lived there for some time, not as a rich tourist, but among the people. You have been misinformed by propaganda-talk. No bears here walking and drinking wodka, and this is certainly not a country of thieves and robbers.

Also creativity is individual, the way you guys group together is indicative of lack of originality due to groupthink. Í was talking about music anyway, it's a different quality of creativity than say swindeling a person

See above. It's your choice to believe what you are told by people with an agenda.

Paul

[forte88]

. I have no hidden agenda. You are just trying to win an argument you can't win. See above. It's your choice to believe what you are told by people with an agenda.

Paul

You are talking to one of your own people, forte88, don't forget that

My own people?You must be mistaken and as I don't have a people I don't have an agenda, only what I've observed with my own eyes. I'm not German so why should I care about promoting its music, I don't live in Germany so why should I state that I think German women can sound horny as hell. Anyway as far as I'm concerned there's something to be learnt from what I've written, Germany is certainly the auditory epicentre of the world.

[p2u_]

My own people?You must be mistaken and as I don't have a people I don't have an agenda, only what I've observed with my own eyes. I'm not German so why should I care about promoting it, I don't live in Germany so why should I state that I think German women can sound horny as hell.

By "one of your people" I meant a person from The West. By the way, what have you observed with your own eyes about Russia if I may ask? The nine o'clock news, maybe? CNN? You cannot possibly have lived here because otherwise you wouldn't be talking the way you are.

And anyway as far as I'm concerned I'm demolishing all your 'arguments'.

A person is happy as long as he/she has dreams. I won't even try take them away from you. So: dream on.

Paul

[forte88]

By the way, what have you observed with your own eyes about Russia if I may ask? The nine o'clock news, maybe? CNN? You cannot possibly have lived here because otherwise you wouldn't be talking the way you are.

It's from internet I've observed it. I've observed here, youtube(Russia Today), it's the mentality, but Americans are just as bad, maybe not as bad, theyre free+group, which generally leads to 'mee-too' toady type, Russia is serf+group, and you hardly get much lower than than when it comes to freespeech etc.
Just for the record, I'm not critical of everything Russian, IMO it's just not very good for music or novel ideas. i do think Russians would be good for computerprogramming(it takes one to know one )

[p2u_]

It's from internet I've observed it. I've observed here, youtube(Russia Today), it's the mentality, but Americans are just as bad, maybe not as bad, theyre free+group, generally leads to mediocre conclusions, Russia is serf+group, and you hardly get much lower than than when it comes to freespeech etc.

Don't take paid trolls seriously, forte88. They ruin what was meant to be a good source of information for all of us.
P.S.: In light of this thread: If you ever go to Amsterdam, be warned that not all of the women you see in the windows in the Red Light District are really women.

Paul

[forte88]

Don't take paid trolls seriously, forte88. They ruin what was meant to be a good source of information for all of us.

Also the European cup, the racism, whisteling at the black players, throwing bananas at them, beating up foreigners. Nationalism is one thing, but as I mentioned previously, when a country's being robbed by oligarches and the rest is being fed antiwestern propaganda, it's just xenofobia
The internet should be a tool to free individuals, instead Russians use it to groupthink, which kind of defeats the purpose

P.S.: In light of this thread: If you ever go to Amsterdam, be warned that not all of the women you see in the windows in the Red Light District are really women.
Paul

Whatever rocks your boat

[p2u_]

Also the European cup, the racism, whisteling at the black players, throwing bananas at them, beating up foreigners. Nationalism is one thing, but as I mentioned previously, when a country's being robbed by oligarches and the rest is being fed antiwestern propaganda, it's just xenofobia
The internet should be a tool to free individuals, instead Russians use it to groupthink, which kind of defeats the purpose

Of course that exists, I can't deny it, but I thought we were talking about another group in society, right? Musicians, artists. In another thread I already told the audience: I cannot walk by when I see a girl crying on the stairs of her musical institute and that is going to be flunked by her teacher. She has no other options whatsoever, especially since her parents may be in deep financial trouble somewhere in Siberia, so I help those out for free. One day, she may lift people up by the way she plays the piano, and man: do they know how to move you!

Paul

[ahinton]

I wonder what Horowitz himself would have thought about a chance off-the-cuff remark of his spawning a thread such as this one has now become...

Best,

Alistair

[p2u_]

I wonder what Horowitz himself would have thought about a chance off-the-cuff remark of his spawning a thread such as this one has now become...

That was not bad, you know, for an old man.

Paul

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Indeed, this thread has veered spectacularly off-topic.. And now for more.

Hi, forte88!

I've been to lots of places in the world, but up to now, I've NEVER seen a people more creative than the Russians in just about ANYTHING they do. Creative in the sense of finding working solutions that at first sight seem impossible, illogical, etc. It's not a coincidence that many great chess players come from here. Intelligence alone is not enough to play good chess, neither is an incredible memory like, for example, Kasparov's, and neither is hard work. It's inspiration and creativity. Ask any grandmaster.

It's also not a coincidence than many great chess players were produced within the Soviet state system, when chess was used as a tool to show the "superiority" of the Soviet system. The amusing thing is how few of them actually fitted the Soviet archetype - Botvinnik and Karpov are the best examples. Tal was a Latvian Jew; Petrosian Armenian; Korchnoi a member of the intelligentsia, and Kasparov a half-Armenian, half-Jew (his real name is Garik Weinstein, and when it became clear he was very talented, he took his mother's name, Kasparova). Kasparov combined all the attributes you quoted above.

In the second (again let's forget about 3 draws) Kasparov won 1 and lost 2. That being said, in the game 2 Kasparov accused IBM in cheating and resigned, demanding rematch, but IBM refused (!!!). The later analysis of the game showed that game would've been a draw.

Re game 2: more precisely, he claimed human intervention and resigned, not as a protest, but because he didn't see the drawing line and thought he was lost. Game 6 troubles me more, tbh, it's probably the worst game he ever played. There was considerable controversy over game 2 because he demanded IBM release the game logs to prove no human intervention and IBM declined (they did eventually become available online). It's interesting to note that the line Deep Blue found in game 2, which Kasparov considered "human" and not "computer-like" was the line chosen by the much stronger program Rybka when it analysed the game in the late 2000s.

Don't you mean when the computer was still in its infancy in 1995?, when you could hardly even multitask, and a few pornpics would have filled up the whole harddisk. Ok, then you're right, now Kasparov abviously wouldn't dare with the processing power computers have today, yeah, yeah, blabla, the usual Russian excuse, propaganda, lies, cheating. Always accusing others of it when they're worldchampions at it in practise. Of course he refuses the challenge today he would lose, just like you don't want a match on the worth of Russian compositions vs German coz you know you would lose. That's ok, you're not fooling anyone, just perhaps yourself
 I think there's more creativity in amateur chessplayers anyway coz then every move is thought about, chessmasters sometimes don't even have to think coz it's on their 'harddisk'.Automatic reactions.

a) Rybka, Houdini et al have inferior processing power, but superior selective analysis algorithms (pruning).
b) Yes, he probably would lose.
c) He's retired for a somewhat risky career in politics.
d) What passes for creativity in amateur chessplayers is often just bad play and lack of understanding. (Speaking as a former amateur chessplayer, albeit one who played in international competitions in his youth.) Grandmasters just have a larger "harddisk" of automatic reactions than amateurs.

[p2u_]

Grandmasters just have a larger "harddisk" of automatic reactions than amateurs.

I don't think Jan Timman, "The Best of the West", and one of my personal friends, would agree with you that it is only this that makes a grandmaster.

Paul

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Well, he couldn't agree with me, as it's not my stance either I don't mean by "just" that it is the only attribute, but it is a relevant one re opening theory and certain technical endings.

[marik1]

Don't you mean when the computer was still in its infancy in 1995?, when you could hardly even multitask, and a few pornpics would have filled up the whole harddisk. Ok, then you're right, now Kasparov abviously wouldn't dare with the processing power computers have today, yeah, yeah, blabla, the usual Russian excuse, propaganda, lies, cheating. Always accusing others of it when they're worldchampions at it in practise. Of course he refuses the challenge today he would lose, just like you don't want a match on the worth of Russian compositions vs German coz you know you would lose. That's ok, you're not fooling anyone, just perhaps yourself
 

First, it was not in 1995, but in 1996--1997.
Second, that was you who brought it up, not me. But of course, now your are changing the story again.

You know, Forte88, talking to you is exactly like talking to a wall. You do not give any facts, you do not listen, you cannot answer any questions, you are constantly changing the story, you are not in rush to realize how little you know about music and creativity and open the books and finally start educating yourself. All you do is every time just keep picking out your nose and smashing on the screen yet another unrelated and irrelevant fantasy or speculation.

It just occurred to me that you are simply a troll--classic, textbook troll!!!

As they say--DNFTTR--do not feed the troll.

Best, M  
 

[chopantasy]

I wonder what Horowitz himself would have thought about a chance off-the-cuff remark of his spawning a thread such as this one has now become...

what would he care about PS?

[forte88]

First, it was not in 1995, but in 1996--1997.
Second, that was you who brought it up, not me. But of course, now your are changing the story again.

You know, Forte88, talking to you is exactly like talking to a wall. You do not give any facts, you do not listen, you cannot answer any questions, you are constantly changing the story, you are not in rush to realize how little you know about music and creativity and open the books and finally start educating yourself. All you do is every time just keep picking out your nose and smashing on the screen yet another unrelated and irrelevant fantasy or speculation.

It just occurred to me that you are simply a troll--classic, textbook troll!!!

As they say--DNFTTR--do not feed the troll.

Best, M  
 

There's no debating you conformist groupthinking toadies, I actually brought up some interesting points. I refuted all your puerile arguments so you focus on irrelevant details. You think by claiming something others will automatically believe, especially when you burried the interesting stuff under your prattle... Again the groupthink attitude, I'm sure your comrades will agree with you(they've got as much of an 'own' mind as you do). Anyway , there's no debating like this, I already hammered you anyway, so now I'm a troll,and still you won't show why Russian music is superior to German music

[forte88]

.
d) What passes for creativity in amateur chessplayers is often just bad play and lack of understanding. (Speaking as a former amateur chessplayer, albeit one who played in international competitions in his youth.) Grandmasters just have a larger "harddisk" of automatic reactions than amateurs.

Amateurs have to be creative, for whatever reason, whereas grandmasters can rely on automatic reactions.To me the bottleneck in chess is counting, grandmasters can think further ahead than amateurs, computers can think further ahead than grandmasters. So if Russians are creative at just about everything as pu2 commented and an example of that creativity is Russia's excelling at chess, then computers must be really creative

[marik1]

I already hammered you anyway,

Good for you--congratulations! Hope it makes you feel smart.

still you won't show why Russian music is superior to German music

I never made such a silly claim, to start with...

Quite frankly, this exchange becomes tiresome and time consuming, so please allow me to bow and leave.

All the best, M

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Amateurs have to be creative, for whatever reason, whereas grandmasters can rely on automatic reactions.To me the bottleneck in chess is counting, grandmasters can think further ahead than amateurs, computers can think further ahead than grandmasters. So if Russians are creative at just about everything as pu2 commented and an example of that creativity is Russia's excelling at chess, then computers must be really creative

IMO, in chess, amateurs are very rarely creative and typically recycle cliched concepts, often misapplying them or using them in the wrong contexts because their understanding is insufficient. What they think of as a "creative idea" is often made to look ridiculous when subjected to a proper test by a stronger player. As to who thinks furthest ahead, that's dependent on the type of position and the analysis. Computers typically apply completely different ways of "thinking" to top players regarding certain positional aspects: in certain types of position, a computer may calculate 10 moves ahead and evaluate the resulting position based on what it considers optimal play, whereas a GM may go by "feel" and evaluate the initial position based on certain concepts based on abstract understanding. In other positions a GM may be able to look further than a computer. See "horizon effect". I'm not going to comment on whether the Russian psyche lends itself to creativity, as I'm not Russian and don't know enough about it. Semantically speaking, are the computers creative? All the computer does is execute code. Perhaps it is the programmers who are the creative ones. If so, it's a different type of creativity to generate effective code as opposed to sitting at a board applying chess understanding, and comparing the two isn't comparing like to like. As a footnote, I wouldn't have used chess as an example of Russian creativity, though I understand why p2u did.

[p2u_]

Semantically speaking, are the computers creative? All the computer does is execute code. Perhaps it is the programmers who are the creative ones.

You are right. Computers cannot be creative without human input.
Collision detection: Garry Kasparov, cyborg
Kasparov's algorhythm: Weak human + machine + better process is superior to a strong computer alone and … superior to a strong human + machine + inferior process.

Paul

[pytheamateur]

To the post "I am proud he is Australian" your exact words were "Don't be proud--he is a Jew". Only complete ignorant could see anything other than racism in your words. I was not alone who commented your post was antisemitic. The fact itself your post was removed speaks for itself. Instead of getting offended  and playing fool with your "I was really surprised that my reply was admitted as antisemitic", just have decency to apologize.

Thanks, M

I have yet to meet a racist who admits to being one.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

You are right. Computers cannot be creative without human input.
Collision detection: Garry Kasparov, cyborg
Kasparov's algorhythm: Weak human + machine + better process is superior to a strong computer alone and … superior to a strong human + machine + inferior process.

I looked at your link. Not disputing any of it except, for purposes of accuracy, I feel the need to point out that the column/blog erroneously conflates two completely separate events as one. The Advanced Chess event of 1998 was held in Leon, Spain, between Kasparov and the Bulgarian GM Veselin Topalov. The "Cyborg Chess" event which Kasparov writes about was a competition held on the playchess server in 2005: see https://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2461

Apologies to everyone for the continued off-topic nature of my posts!

[p2u_]

Apologies to everyone for the continued off-topic nature of my posts!

Would it help to tell the moderators that Israel Albert Horowitz was a chess columnist for the New York Times?

Paul

[ronde_des_sylphes]

 

He was certainly Jewish, but I have no information regarding his sexuality or piano-playing ability..