Memorizing and how the brain works

[nyiregyhazi]

Because you notice stuff you didn't before and it's surprising.  The auto-pilot knows stuff you don't.

Yeah, this can definitely happen. I think it's way easier to fix it by noticing stuff better during your practise, though, than by trying to blank out your mind while you're performing.

[hmpiano]

But if I were to speculate, the lateral and premotor cortex is the area of conscious thought about movement.  It's not separate from your consciousness since it is part of your consciousness.

Speculation aside, is there not room for error between the conscious wish and the movement (muscular contraction)?  But if we don't know what is between...?

[bustthewave]

Sure- I think this is where having the choice is so important, though. Many people think the less awareness the better- but it's because their ability is so superficial that they get better results this way. They don't tackle the things that they need to develop head on, but merely try not to think- which leaves all of their holes in place. Conversely, a really effective pianist has tackled all of these things in practise and come to understand a variety of different viewpoints. For that pianist, when they seem not to be thinking, all of those underlying skills are still bubbling under the surface. Somtimes they'll think more, sometimes they'll just do it- but there are no suprises in store either way. However, for most pianists who think they are better off not thinking about what they get confused by, no such ability exists- and they instantly fall apart if the physical habit slides (as well as playing with minimal control of their sound, due to the intent not to think about what they are actually doing but to instead follow mere physical habits). Only experienced artists should be deciding that instincts are already good enough and that anything else is "interference".

(just to clarify, I'm speaking primarily about classical)

I think that summed it up pretty well. And to clarify, I used the jazz example only to show how you can modify already learned movements flawlessly, but yea I assumed we were talking about classical primarily . I think the key is to to actually be hyper aware of how you sound all the time, especially while practicing. The movements will take care of themselves, but the artistry wont.

[bustthewave]

But if I were to speculate, the lateral and premotor cortex is the area of conscious thought about movement.  It's not separate from your consciousness since it is part of your consciousness.

Speculation aside, is there not room for error between the conscious wish and the movement (muscular contraction)?  But if we don't know what is between...?

Sigh... looks like I'm pulling out my old anatomy texts haha .

So first I should mention, they aren't entirely sure how the premotor cortex starts a movement, but we do know it has connections directly with the spinal chord, and it connects with the primary motor cortex.

But if you're wanting to know what happens what you decide to start a movement, and you make that movement happen, you have to zoom in to the nerve, and then zoom in further to the individual neuron.

When we choose to move our arm for instance, neurons begin firing in our brain (our cerebrum), it sends the signal down to the thalamus, connects it to the cerebellum as well as through the brain stem, and the spinal chord. The path the neuron takes fallows the same pathway (and thus connects up to them) as other unconscious pathways. Neurons fire through the spinal chord, and eventually out to the arm. Then the reverse happens, messages from the arm fire immediately back up to the brain and eventually the cerebrum (but also to the cerebellum), and you're brain processes the new information (such as where you're appendages are in space, how balanced you are, exc... exc...) so it can send out more messages.

But how do we direct fine motor control? We can't on our own awareness. We can give general directions, but we don't have the capacity to consciously move only certain muscles, in an exact way. It's just too much information for our conscious brain to think of. This is why when we choose to begin a movement, the pathway those neurons take are also intervened by neurons from the cerebellum, and neurons from the eyes, and neurons from the inner ear... We initiated the neuron to fire, but the "auto-pilot" took care of the rest, and fine-tuned our movement (even if it hadn't done this movement before), shutting off the movement of some muscles, lessening the movement of others, making sure muscles are used that we keep our balance, exc... exc...

Sorry ramble so much :/, to answer "how do we start a movement?" is a surprisingly complicated topic...

[harpogrames]

Many people think the less awareness the better- but it's because their ability is so superficial that they get better results this way. They don't tackle the things that they need to develop head on, but merely try not to think- which leaves all of their holes in place.

I don't know who these people are but I think it is pretty common knowledge that as you get good at any skill you go from doing it very consciously to doing it more unconsciously. Of course one can't just skip to the last part, I don't think anybody claimed that.

[hmpiano]

I don't know who these people are but I think it is pretty common knowledge that as you get good at any skill you go from doing it very consciously to doing it more unconsciously.

Not with all skills.  There's nothing consciously you can do to help you learn the balance needed for this posture.  The learning occurs totally on a subliminal level.

[hmpiano]

Sorry ramble so much :/, to answer "how do we start a movement?" is a surprisingly complicated topic...

I think maybe I thought you'd solved the mind/body question.

[harpogrames]

Not with all skills.  There's nothing consciously you can do to help you learn the balance needed for this posture.  The learning occurs totally on a subliminal level.

So if that was true, during the learning process your conscious mind would not be needed and would thus be free to do other stuff, like say, talking to another person or doing math?

(haha just realized I wrote unconsciously instead of subconscious in my last post )

[maczip]

Speculation aside, is there not room for error between the conscious wish and the movement (muscular contraction)?  But if we don't know what is between...?

Motor processing in the brain and consciousness is a very interesting, and poorly understood, and highly disputated issue (in context of the free will discussion). The best scientific work  I am aware of about this matter is done by Mark Hallett, who is a brilliant neuroscientist at NIH Neurological Institute in Bethesda. He has pointed out that there is parallel processing of motor tasks and consciousness (Clinical Neurophysiology 118 (2007) 1179–1192)

[hmpiano]

Interesting.  Here's his abstract:

Abstract

This review deals with the physiology of the initiation of a voluntary movement and the appreciation of whether it is voluntary or not. I argue that free will is not a driving force for movement, but a conscious awareness concerning the nature of the movement. Movement initiation and the perception of willing the movement can be separately manipulated. Movement is generated subconsciously, and the conscious sense of volition comes later, but the exact time of this event is difficult to assess because of the potentially illusory nature of introspection. Neurological disorders of volition are also reviewed. The evidence suggests that movement is initiated in the frontal lobe, particularly the mesial areas, and the sense of volition arises as the result of a corollary discharge likely involving multiple areas with reciprocal connections including those in the parietal lobe and insular cortex.

I don't know why consciousness should equate with free will.  Can't free will be a subliminal thing? Libet stands up fine then.

[hmpiano]

So if that was true, during the learning process your conscious mind would not be needed and would thus be free to do other stuff, like say, talking to another person or doing math?

Sure.  You can teach things to amnesiacs.

[outin]

I wonder what I was thinking...
Blame it on a very boring week at work...

Seriously, there's so much we do not know about the mind/body connections and the way they may be different in individuals that I really don't envy the poor people that call themselves piano teachers...

[hmpiano]

Seriously, there's so much we do not know about the mind/body connections and the way they may be different in individuals that I really don't envy the poor people that call themselves piano teachers...

It only gets complicated if you think you know what you're doing.

[faulty_damper]

Areas of the brain that change in relationship to motor training include the putamen and premotor cortex.  Grey matter decreases as white matter increases indicating that extensive myelination has occurred.  This indicates that learned and well-practiced movements are encoded in the premotor cortex; i.e. this is where you store your muscle memory.

Structural neuroplasticity in the sensorimotor network of professional female ballet dancers. (2010)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20024944

[hmpiano]

Areas of the brain that change in relationship to motor training include the putamen and premotor cortex.  Grey matter decreases as white matter increases indicating that extensive myelination has occurred.  This indicates that learned and well-practiced movements are encoded in the premotor cortex; i.e. this is where you store your muscle memory.

Structural neuroplasticity in the sensorimotor network of professional female ballet dancers. (2010)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20024944

The present findings complement the results of functional imaging studies in experts that revealed reduced neural activity in skilled compared with nonskilled subjects. Reductions in brain activity are accompanied by local decreases in GM and WM volumes and decreased FA.

Surely that means less myelin?

[faulty_damper]

No, it means that the brains is more efficient.  Skilled performers think less than the non-skilled.  In other words, the better you are, the less you think.

[hmpiano]

But the paper says 'Reductions in brain activity are accompanied by local decreases in GM and WM volumes' while you say 'Grey matter decreases as white matter increases'.

[nyiregyhazi]

The movements will take care of themselves, but the artistry wont.

I see what you mean, in a sense, but remember that any artistry that is conveyed IS conveyed through the movements. It's not a case of entirely prelearned movements being spun out and artistry being added separately. If you don't move the right way, there's no art coming out. Considering different pianos and acoustics, that means that every movement needs to be adapted to some extent. That's why I'm so skeptical of people who need to try not to think about what they are doing. If noticing what you are doing gets in the way, how can you be making the adaptations? Awareness is everything, if you want to make a good sound rather than spin out notes.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't know who these people are but I think it is pretty common knowledge that as you get good at any skill you go from doing it very consciously to doing it more unconsciously. Of course one can't just skip to the last part, I don't think anybody claimed that.

Of course- but I think most pianists jump far too quickly to the mindgames, at the expense of paying adequate attention to developing the skill set. How many pianists can actually play one hand by memory with the other- or even play an accompaniment figure minus the melody, say? While it's true that not everybody has the talent to reach the level of doing such things with all of their repertoire, I think it's a mistake to look to esoteric psychology (just because you've sometimes played a piece without going wrong) before looking at what you can do to get to know the music more thoroughly.

[nyiregyhazi]

Not with all skills.  There's nothing consciously you can do to help you learn the balance needed for this posture.  The learning occurs totally on a subliminal level.

That's really not true, sorry. Observing your alignment in a mirror would be a tremendous aid. Internal perceptions would easily miss all kinds of hindrances to the easiest balances- particularly areas of the body that are bunched up rather than lengthened out vertically.. The ability to look at yourself from the point of view of an external observer would provided plenty of aid to the internal processes. Along the exact same lines, I always position a mirror when practising. It reveals countless things that my sense miss, in terms of alignment. 

[hmpiano]

I can only assume you've never learnt any balancing skill.  You must have been a strange sight learning to ride a bike!

[nyiregyhazi]

I can only assume you've never learnt any balancing skill.  You must have been a strange sight learning to ride a bike!

? It's as essential as in any other skill to start with conscious awareness. The first thing you have to realise when riding a bike is that if it tips in one direction, you need to move your centre of gravity to the opposite side. Now, this might not be rationalised in terms of a centre of a gravity. However, neither is it altogether subconscious. Corrections do not come by pure instinct- until someone is well acquainted with the skills. Even if a person doesn't think in terms of moving their centre of gravity, they will have to start with a very clear internal awareness of the adjustments that must be made, before they can leave it to instinct.

Also, Alexander technique is an immediately obvious example of how instincts don't typically even lead to effective balance- unless you are very lucky. When you understand that lengthening the neck out reduces the workload you can improve your balance drastically, beyond what instincts provided. I have little doubt that the woman in that photo learned how to lengthen her spine well, before doing that posture. Ask the average Joe (who slouches his head forwards) to find such a posture by instinct and he'll be all over the shop. His only hope would be to learn to stand upright better, first.

[outin]

Have you considered that people may actually be different? Some people seem to learn physical skill more "naturally" than others and really need not think about it much. That's why they become professional dancers, athletes, pianists? The rest of us who have to think and analyze everything that we do end up mediocre or just plain losers like yours truly 

[nyiregyhazi]

Have you considered that people may actually be different?

Indeed.  That's why I disputed the assertion that such a posture can ONLY be learned by instinct. Some people are lucky. Those of us who aren't have the option to either learn or fail.

[hmpiano]

? It's as essential as in any other skill to start with conscious awareness. The first thing you have to realise when riding a bike is that if it tips in one direction, you need to move your centre of gravity to the opposite side.

You have no need to realize it at all.  You can realize it or not realize it, I doubt it makes much of a difference though my guess is not realizing and responding faster than consciousness could well give you the edge (certainly stop you falling over).

[nyiregyhazi]

You have no need to realize it at all.  You can realize it or not realize it, I doubt it makes much of a difference though my guess is not realizing and responding faster than consciousness could well give you the edge (certainly stop you falling over).

Yeah, but it's not instinct. At some point you observe that falling sideways can be prevented by leaning in the opposite direction. Nobody does that by instinct straight off. It may not be analysed fully rationally, but neither is it a magic instinct. The brain makes internal observations and has to learn to act upon them, before a person can make adjustments by mere instinct. Also, you might have missed the extra 2nd paragraph I added as an edit. Most people would never get anywhere near that balance on instinct. First they'd have to learn to stand up in a good posture- which would likely involve conscious realisation that they need to lengthen their spine better. Few people will instinctively lengthen their spine like that unless they begin with a series of conscious instructions that will enable them to feel how to stand in good posture.

[hmpiano]

Yeah, but it's not instinct. At some point you observe that falling sideways can be prevented by leaning in the opposite direction. Nobody does that by instinct straight off.

Sorry, that is so obviously wrong I won't waste my time with it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Sorry, that is so obviously wrong I won't waste my time with it.

So, nobody ever falls off the bike first before learning to balance? No kid ever falls over, before learning the need to lean away from the direction they are about to fall in? It's not a born instinct to balance. It's learned by falling over and realising that you need to lean in the opposite direction. This begins years before getting on a bike, when learning to stand.

Personally, I'm more interested in the posture you claimed can only be learned by instinct though. What instinct is going to get the average guy on the street to learn to stand as upright and well balanced as that, when attempting it? You really think that will happen by instinct? Sorry, but it won't for many people. However, plenty of people could learn to do it, if they start by learning to improve their posture in general.

[faulty_damper]

But the paper says 'Reductions in brain activity are accompanied by local decreases in GM and WM volumes' while you say 'Grey matter decreases as white matter increases'.

While the abstract is not clear, I interpret that sentence not to mean a smaller brain area is present for skilled dancers but that less of the premotor cortex is active, directly related to reductions in brain activity.  Since skilled dancers have more attuned neural circuits, less activity is directly proportionate to how many neurons are firing. The sentence including the part of the decrease in fractional anisotropy, indicates that this is the case since a lower FA indicates high myelination.

"Reductions in brain activity are accompanied by local decreases in GM and WM volumes and decreased FA."

[hmpiano]

All the paper seems to confirm is that amongst learnt performers there's less neural activity (and therefore finding "Reductions in brain activity are accompanied by local decreases in GM and WM volumes and decreased FA." is to be expected).  Do they anywhere say this decreased neural activity is due to increased myelin?  I would think the mechanism for the decreased neural activity is still a mystery.

[faulty_damper]

No, this paper does not refer to the reduction of neural activity as a result of myelination.  The reduced activity is a result of well-practiced executions, like a well-worn path.  It's simply easier to perform something that is well-practiced than one that is not because the connections of the neurons are stronger and more direct.  There are actually less synapses among well-used neurons than less used ones because it is a more direct path to executing a movement.  This principle applies to other areas of the brain.

Imagine you're in a maze.  If you first walk through it, you will likely reach dead ends and have to double back.  But the more you walk it, the less likely you'll walk down dead ends before reaching the end of the maze.  With enough trials, you'll likely have figured out the most direct route to reach the end and do it faster.  This principle is the same as having less neural activity for well-practiced tasks.

[hmpiano]

Imagine you're in a maze.  If you first walk through it, you will likely reach dead ends and have to double back.  But the more you walk it, the less likely you'll walk down dead ends before reaching the end of the maze.  With enough trials, you'll likely have figured out the most direct route to reach the end and do it faster.  This principle is the same as having less neural activity for well-practiced tasks.

You did earlier say though

Areas of the brain that change in relationship to motor training include the putamen and premotor cortex.  Grey matter decreases as white matter increases indicating that extensive myelination has occurred.

but no matter.

Why the more you walk it the less you go down dead ends?  Are you saying something is watching/guiding the neurons so each attempt is compared with each other?  Are they that intellgent?  It may help if you skipped the analogies - I think I can handle the hard science.

[faulty_damper]

Myelination has a role in inhibiting innervation by preventing adjacent axons from making contact.  Without myelin, an axon can innervate adjacent axons since the action potential from one axon can cause an action potential in another.  Imagine two wires that are exposed and touching and one end is turned on; the electricity will flow down one wire to the area which contact has been made and now the electricity will flow down both wires.  But when wires are insulated by rubber hosing, this does not occur.

[hmpiano]

I know what myelin is.  It's role in learnt tasks, outside of early years, is not clear.

[nyiregyhazi]

I know what myelin is.  It's role in learnt tasks, outside of early years, is not clear.

So you've gone as far as to construct a whole fake name for yourself, this time, keyboardclass? Nevertheless, your fingerprints are all over your posts, as usual- short rude posts, claiming you already knew the answer that your question suggested you didn't , extensive use of italics.

If you don't want to get caught, you need to develop a new posting style.

[hmpiano]

Who's rattled your cage?

[nyiregyhazi]

Who's rattled your cage?

Whether yet another short post featuring italics is your idea of a perverse joke or simply the result of an absence of self awareness, it is clear who you are. Did you actually buy yourself a website, in the hope that it would mask your latest appearance? Or have you now resorted to stealing someone's identity? 

[liszt85]

I have noticed something... My hands memorize things very fast, it is only my conscious mind that is slow. This is actually a bit of a problem. When I learn new pieces my hands learn the movements almost right away. So this is what happens: My hands already know what to do, but because my mind doesn't, it starts overthinking and "making sure" the hands know what to do and end up confusing the hands and that causes a break or even a black out. Sometimes my hands do things before my brain has time to do anything and I can almost literally hear my mind yelling at them "What the hell were you thinking!" and that also confuses the hands which already have gone to the next part 

It can take a long time before my mind "catches up" with the hands but if I just keep on working on the piece it finally does. I have experimented different things to make it faster, but had little success. I know someone will tell me to take the sheet and work on it before going to piano. But I just cannot do that. I cannot consciously memorize anything that involves symbols, whether they are notes, numbers or letters. I literally get a headache if I try. I've been like this ever since a young child.

Yesterday instead of just playing a piece (that I already have memorized on some level, but sometimes get these blackouts), I tried to play the notes of the right and then the left hand with just random fingers and found several spots that I can play in the piece, but had absolutely no idea what notes to play next. I even had to take out the score to look.

Isn't it just interesting how piano playing makes it visible how your brain works? The things you have read as theory suddenly just become real...

And no, I don't think the hands have a memory of their own, it is just situtated in the other half of the brain, not the control freak half that is always trying to mess up with my playing any way it can

To make sure that our memory for a piece is secure, we have to use all memory resources available to us. Motor memory is just one of them. So when you say your hands "know" what to play, you are referring to purely muscle memory. That kind of memory by itself is highly prone to errors. The reason is during performance, the muscle tension varies drastically with various different situations, or just at different times! So you find that sometimes you are able to play through the entire piece with no problems, but at other times, you make many mistakes and have to stop and look at the score (or try it again until you get the muscles to continue moving based on their memory).

We have other forms of memory cues available to us: harmonic, melodic, rhythmical, imagery, tactile memory, etc. Knowledge of theory will help with harmony, melody and rhythm. Some people associate stories to pieces and have a precise image associated with every part of the music. That helps with memory. The kind of memory that many people neglect is tactile memory! Practice feeling the keys. Close your eyes, imagine your hand position on the piano and try to visualize in your mind you exact hand position. Just by feeling the keys, you ought to know where your fingers are. If you watch close up videos of professional pianists' hands, you will observe a LOT of "feeling around the keys". If you haven't noticed it already, please spend some time on youtube and observe it.

I started training how to feel the keys and I play less wrong notes these days. It really does work. I now need to work on more theory and make sure I know my harmony in and out. For the Chopin Etude Op. 25/2 (posted on the recording forum), I practiced my left hand separate and can play just the left hand (the entire piece). That helped IMMENSELY!! That is because, I practiced the left hand by also saying out loud the harmonic progressions.

Hope this helps.

[outin]

The kind of memory that many people neglect is tactile memory! Practice feeling the keys. Close your eyes, imagine your hand position on the piano and try to visualize in your mind you exact hand position. Just by feeling the keys, you ought to know where your fingers are. If you watch close up videos of professional pianists' hands, you will observe a LOT of "feeling around the keys". If you haven't noticed it already, please spend some time on youtube and observe it.

I agree. When I just cannot get a passage fixed in my mind I often close my eyes and go blind for a while and that really helps. I am often amazed how accurately I can find the notes with my eyes closed, even with long jumps.

[harpogrames]

nyiregyhazi, I just realized today that some of the stuff I learned half a year ago (when pmy practice was less organized) I can't actually start in the middle of the bar, and have to start over if I make a mistake. This must be the scenario you are describing, and has been a real eye-opener for me