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Why do girls hate math? (Read 18319 times)

Offline faulty_damper

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Why do girls hate math?
« on: October 06, 2012, 07:09:21 AM »
If a female teacher is math-phobic, she will transfer this phobia to the girls in her classroom through various means.  And if the teacher has negative stereotypes of girls, they also transfer this to the girls.

Believing Stereotype Undermines Girls' Math Performance: Elementary School Women Teachers Transfer Their Fear of Doing Math to Girls, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100125172940.htm


There is also a bias toward boys.  The stereotype that boys are supposed to be better at math affects teacher's behavior as well.

Math Teachers Demonstrate a Bias Toward White Male Students, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416150359.htm

The sad thing about this bias is that it starts very early.  Teachers are unaware of their stereotypical biases about gender and this directly transfers to how they treat their students. 

Gender Stereotypes About Math Develop as Early as Second Grade
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314091642.htm


And in just a couple of years, say, when girls are in 5th grade, they rate themselves as being worse at math than their grades and test scores indicate.  Contrary, boys overrate themselves as being better than they actually are.

Study Debunks Myths About Gender and Math Performance
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111212153123.htm


I mention this because I'm sick of hearing girls and women say "I'm not good at math" or some derivative thereof.  The thoughts that go through my head when I hear it from a female makes me want to tell them that the reason they don't like it or suck at it is because they've had shitty teachers who held gender stereotypes and were probably sexist.  They are simply the result of those shitty teachers.

I also want to tell them that the reason they suck is because they either don't practice or do the bare minimum of problems assigned.  Doing the bare minimum is guaranteed to make you suck.  That's why C grades were invented.  It lets you know that you suck without saying you suck.  And because teachers don't say you suck, you think it's not that bad.  But the problem with grades is that people think a B is a good grade.  Getting a B doesn't mean above average; it means you suck but suck less than a C.  It means you either don't know some things or don't know how to do some things.  Similarly, an A- also means you suck, but suck less than a B+.  An A- also means you don't know something or don't know how to do something.

Imagine if you learned a piano concerto to a B+ level.  This means you know the 1st and 2nd movement and only 80% of the 3rd.  Suddenly, at the coda, you stop playing because you never learned it because you were happy with that B+.  You can't even finish the concerto.

But would any real piano teacher allow this student to only learn a piece to a B+ level?  Of course not, and yet school teachers are absolutely fine with giving a student a A-.  Or a B, C, D, or F.


I know I changed my point in the middle of this post.  But I hope you can see that both points are related.  Gender stereotypes and accepting that students are allowed to be both ignorant and unskilled.  This is unfortunately the culture of crapticity that we live in.  I don't accept this.

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 07:30:29 AM »
I wish it was only teachers and school... Kids have many of their attitudes already formed when they start school.

It's "genetic" also. My mother was a math nerd and studied engineering when female engineers where still a rare breed. So even if I was not that good in all areas of math (I did not inherit her geometrical perception skills), I never really considered it an especially difficult subject when I went to school. I had never learned an attitude like that from home.

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »
great post. i think it's one of the main reasons danica mckellar put these books out. i think what she did here is really great. i just wish these were more widespread and accessible to the multitudes of young girls being fed that $1tty dribble.....



http://www.mathdoesntsuck.com/
http://www.danicamckellar.com/store/

Offline starstruck5

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 02:29:22 PM »
I tried hard to resist the temptation to say -great figures! 

Seriously though, I think we are evolving a little beyond these stereotypes -the more we see films where the leading ladies are computer whizzes, etc,  it will chip away at them -in the UK we have scientific programs aimed at quite young children -and the show is presented by a female -Nina and the Neurons it is called -I always turn the TV on in the morning to check out the football pages on Teletext -and that is always on -

There are always going to be girls who don't like math though, whatever the quality and attitude of the teacher -same as there will always be boys who hate maths -just like every other school subject actually -
When a search is in progress, something will be found.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 09:00:53 PM »
When it comes to math, do not mess around. Everybody knows girls are better at math! :) We can use both sides of the brain at the same time! :D ( I was told that by a boy though...)
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 09:21:53 PM »
We can use both sides of the brain at the same time!

dude..

wh...

wh..

wha?

What the heck is...

What?!

Dude, what...

What the freaking heck?! 


There is not enough notes in the whole Rachmaninoff third piano concerto to express how many ways that statement is wrong!
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Offline chopin2015

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 09:57:26 PM »
why is it wrong??
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 10:12:08 PM »
I have heard girls are better academically before puberty and then boys catch up and pass them.

And that female brains have more connections between the two halves.


*Bob eats a potato, randomly.*
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 12:12:33 AM »
Perhaps it is not girls who hate math.  Perhaps it is there cooties.  It's well known that girls have cooties.  (Well known among guys, though some girls may vehemently deny this but it's still true.)  If the cooties don't like math, then it makes sense girls wouldn't like math.

It's hard to argue with logic like that.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Mayla

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #9 on: October 07, 2012, 01:05:15 AM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 01:30:49 AM »
why is it wrong??

Because EVERYONE uses both sides of their brains at the same time!  

We use it for vision, hearing, facial expressions, speaking, etc.  It's not just only girls.


But here's something that's actually true:

If you take three steps from a wall, rest your head on it, and pick up a chair, guys can't stand up but girls can. 



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Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #11 on: October 07, 2012, 01:45:10 AM »

And that female brains have more connections between the two halves.


The corpus callosum connects the two hemispheres the same way in every brain irrespective of gender.

And you can function almost perfectly if you manage to snap it.
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 02:18:29 AM »
Ok, but I think it is easy for anyone to like or hate math. Math can be interesting(Acoustics, and Physics are my fav.) Or it can be brain-numbing...boring and unappealing.

(I <3 logarithms)
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #13 on: October 07, 2012, 02:23:31 AM »
Physics are my fav.)

In speaking of physics, the other day my physics teacher tried to teach me the physics of skateboarding.

He told me that every time I try a trick I should die. 

What the freaking heck?!  He's soooooo ugly for saying that! 
Live large, die large.  Leave a giant coffin.

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #14 on: October 07, 2012, 02:38:01 AM »
Research has actually shown gender differences in brain function (not assessing the validity or reliability of the research here), but these are always statistical differences. It means that if you take 100 males and 100 females, the males are more likely to have certain traits than the females, but there are always many individuals who do not fit into this statistical norm. So if we consider biology the stereotypic gender differences often are either wrong completely or simply inapplicable to individual cases.

But the cultural reinforcement of gender differences is still very strong and I would say we have went backwards in the last decade or so in this respect...

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #15 on: October 07, 2012, 03:01:58 AM »
Gyrlz hat-ez maths bewause girls is so stooopwyd.

*Bob considers patting the Mayla on the head, saying, "Yes, yes, shhhhh," but does not want to retrieve a bloody stump.  Bloody stumps make for difficult piano playing.  So, once again, Bob only thought about saying that but didn't not actually say it.  So it doesn't count.  No bloody stump.*

Is that?  Yes, it is.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005211/
Winnie from the Wonder Years.  I remember hearing about that. 
Is it me... or does the presentation look a little more geared toward guys and lesbians?  And maybe neither will focus on math too much?
"Presenting math lessons in the style of a teen magazine..."   *facepalm* ::)
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Mayla

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #16 on: October 07, 2012, 03:09:21 AM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #17 on: October 07, 2012, 03:09:41 AM »
The corpus callosum connects the two hemispheres the same way in every brain irrespective of gender.

And you can function almost perfectly if you manage to snap it.

http://www.pbs.org/parents/raisinggirls/brains/nature.html
"•Female brains have more synapses (connections) than male brains."
That looked more credible but there are other sites saying the same thing.  I'm sure there's a more authoritative one than PBS but I don't feel like searching.

And we have bigger, heavier brains, us mens. :)

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #18 on: October 07, 2012, 03:11:55 AM »
*bites Bob's hand off anyway*  ;D

2 minos 1 = 3 ... 0 ... 1

That's just not possible due to the...  the, um... the... physics processing your brain has to go through to calculate.... spacial things.  And such.  Therefore.   So it's obvious my male brain would allow me to step out the way in time.  Yeah.

I was going to say something else... But I can't think of it now.   It was funny too.  I think.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #19 on: October 07, 2012, 03:18:07 AM »
2 handezes minos 1 handez = 3 ... 0 ... 1 handez

That's why we use a pencil.  *points to the eraser.*


Haha.  I've heard that line for music too.  Use a pencil.  So you can erase.



Men are geared up toward tracking and hunting.  Women are geared up to child raising and "nesting."  That's my understanding.  Not just the brain.  Everything.

Seems strange that there's another kind of human with a different brain, but there they are -- women.  I don't understand it, but it's true.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Mayla

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 03:38:01 AM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 03:42:57 AM »
Penecillin?  I just don't understand any of that.  Of course I'm guy with a giant brian, so... all the more perplexing.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline chopin2015

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 03:44:26 AM »
Penecillin?  I just don't understand any of that.  Of course I'm guy with a giant brian, so... all the more perplexing.
:D

LOL
"Beethoven wrote in three flats a lot. That's because he moved twice."

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #23 on: October 07, 2012, 03:45:13 AM »
  Of course I'm guy with a giant brian, so...

I haven't heard it called Brian before  ;D

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #24 on: October 07, 2012, 03:52:28 AM »
I have.  Haha.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline quantum

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #25 on: October 07, 2012, 03:53:35 AM »
Interesting, had a few female friends that were ridiculously good at math in high school.  One of them nearly got a 100% finale grade in calculus.  


I took math class because someone said they served pi for lunch.  
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline clavile

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #26 on: October 07, 2012, 03:55:31 AM »
Why do I hate math? Because it's hard for me! At fifteen I still struggle with the details, and I try my hardest to solve the problems. I do NOT do bare minimum, I try to LEARN, and do BETTER.

Are my parents (my teachers) sexists or biased? NO.

Are my grandparents (who also have helped me with math) sexist or biased? No.

Is my brother (who has helped me with math) sexist or biased? No.

I just DON'T. like. math. period.

I have a friend who doesn't like math.

Are her parents (her teachers) biased or sexist? No.

Are her brother and sister (who help her) biased or sexist? No.

I have ANOTHER friend who doesn't like math.

Her parents also teach her. Are they biased or sexist? No.

She recently has a teacher at a co-op. She still  doesn't like math. Is her new teacher therefore biased or sexist? No.

Are any of these mentioned above stereotyping? No!

Don't you think a girl has the brain capacity to know whether she's good at something or not? Are we really that STUPID to believe that our teacher's "math phobia" somehow magically transferred to our brains? Or that someone's stereotypical brainwaves tiptoed into our brains disabling the math-functioning part of them?

Written in books of history are stories of how women were looked down upon, and thought lesser than men. Did that sexism stop them or make them think they could never do things just as well as men and underestimate themselves? No! They pushed harder to do what they wanted!

Yes, it's a given that men will always do some things better than women, but that is nature.

-No, in case your wondering, I'm not a feminist

African-Americans were put down, and thought stupid. Did this stereotyping stop them? Did it somehow bewitch them causing their brains to shrivel up and not be able to perform anything as well as those who put them down? No! They fought on and proved themselves just as smart and as brilliant as ANYBODY else!

I really hate it when people post stuff like this. It's all air-brained assumptions with nothing to base it on but scientific idiocy.

If stereotypes, phobias and biases were causing the problem, nobody on EARTH would be able to perform ANY action.

I mean no disrespect by this post; only only giving my opinion on the matter as you did.

Joy,
Student/Teacher

Student of 4 years

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Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #27 on: October 07, 2012, 04:05:01 AM »
Whales have the biggest brains.  Except they're out in the ocean where they can't learn.  See any textbooks in the ocean?  If we just brought whales onto the land... You can imagine the geniuses we'd have then.



Kidding aside... I've heard all this before.  I think girls perform the same when it's an all girls school.  Then after that, in college and early career, they decide to have a family and get knocked out of the job market and things that way.  That part I'm blanking on a little.  Something along those lines.  And then there's the controversy of same sex schools. 

 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline quantum

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #28 on: October 07, 2012, 04:11:10 AM »
I haven't heard it called Brian before  ;D

It's a derivative  ;)

f(x) = Brain
f'(x) = Brian

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline rachmaninoff_forever

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #29 on: October 07, 2012, 04:24:03 AM »
It's a derivative  ;)

f(x) = Brain
f'(x) = Brian



Well Brain is a constant.

So f'(x)Brain = 0
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Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #30 on: October 07, 2012, 05:15:42 AM »
http://www.pbs.org/parents/raisinggirls/brains/nature.html
"•Female brains have more synapses (connections) than male brains."
That looked more credible but there are other sites saying the same thing.  I'm sure there's a more authoritative one than PBS but I don't feel like searching.

And we have bigger, heavier brains, us mens. :)

Males have more neurons and other glial cells simply because of the size of the brain is larger than females.  Females have fewer neurons but have more connections.  It makes up the difference.
[edit] This makes it seem like females have more connections than males.  It should be interpreted as females have the same number of synapses as males even with fewer neurons.  This means that intelligence is the same.

Intelligence is ability, skill, and speed.  This translates to having enough neurons, synapses, and myelin.  Intelligence is highly malleable.  You can easily increase your intelligence, though it's much easier to decrease it.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #31 on: October 07, 2012, 05:44:52 AM »
Why do I hate math? Because it's hard for me! At fifteen I still struggle with the details, and I try my hardest to solve the problems. I do NOT do bare minimum, I try to LEARN, and do BETTER.

From what I've read, there is a gender difference where girls look at math in more practical ways instead of abstractly.  This is fundamentally wrong, as far as math processing goes.  It's like a computer processor trying to find out how to access the internet.  That's the user's job, not the processor.  The processor's job is to make the computations to get you there. 


Quote
Are my parents (my teachers) sexists or biased? NO.
If any of your teachers have ever lined you up by gender, boys and girls line, or ever said "boys and girls", they hold sexist attitudes.  (I just found out that this is illegal, BTW.)  Also the research doesn't bear out your statement.  Hidden biases are present, but because few people know what it looks like in practice, no one labels these behaviors as sexist.


Quote
I just DON'T. like. math. period.
In order not to like something like math, you have to have had a negative experience with it sometime in the past.  It's not like broccoli which contains chemicals that many children are adverse to.  In this case, there is a biological reason not to like broccoli as a child.  But as for math, there is no biological reason to hate math unless you've had negative experiences in the past.

Quote
I have a friend who doesn't like math.
Are her parents (her teachers) biased or sexist? No.
Are her brother and sister (who help her) biased or sexist? No.
I have ANOTHER friend who doesn't like math.
Her parents also teach her. Are they biased or sexist? No.

We all have biases.  For example, I don't like most black people.  I also don't like racists.  But not liking most black people doesn't mean I'm a racist.  All parents have biases, even sexist ones.  It's subtle, e.g. dressing up the girl as a princess on Halloween, or saying how "pretty" she is, etc. 


Quote
Are any of these mentioned above stereotyping? No!
A bias based on presumed traits is stereotyping.  It is virtually impossible for a person not to hold stereotypes and act according to them.  The brain is limited in this respect to make thought processes faster.  Stereotypes is a way that relieves the brain from having to think.

Quote
Don't you think a girl has the brain capacity to know whether she's good at something or not? Are we really that STUPID to believe that our teacher's "math phobia" somehow magically transferred to our brains? Or that someone's stereotypical brainwaves tiptoed into our brains disabling the math-functioning part of them?

Dunning-Kreuger Effect: those who are stupid are too stupid to know they are stupid.

Quote
Written in books of history are stories of how women were looked down upon, and thought lesser than men. Did that sexism stop them or make them think they could never do things just as well as men and underestimate themselves? No! They pushed harder to do what they wanted!
The vast majority of women conceded to their gender roles.  They didn't push harder to get what they wanted.  If the idea of gender equality never came into Western consciousness, they'd still be baking bread at home while taking care of their children.

Quote
Yes, it's a given that men will always do some things better than women, but that is nature.
There are few things that men do better than women because of their sex, like muscle strength.

Quote
-No, in case your wondering, I'm not a feminist
Neither am I.

Quote
African-Americans were put down, and thought stupid. Did this stereotyping stop them? Did it somehow bewitch them causing their brains to shrivel up and not be able to perform anything as well as those who put them down? No! They fought on and proved themselves just as smart and as brilliant as ANYBODY else!
They prefer to be called black, not African-Americans.  If what you say is true, then why do black people do so poorly in school?  Why are black dropout rates higher than any other racial group?  Why are most prisoners black?  Why do blacks think getting good grades are bad?  Because they think that they are stupid and are aware of the negative stereotypes of blacks.  Look up "stereotype threat".

Quote
I really hate it when people post stuff like this. It's all air-brained assumptions with nothing to base it on but scientific idiocy.
I did include links to some scientific literature.  It's not air-brained assumptions.  It's based on decades of study and research. 

Quote
If stereotypes, phobias and biases were causing the problem, nobody on EARTH would be able to perform ANY action.
Actually, stereotypes are what makes the world easier to function.  If you know you've had good experiences with something in the past, the same is expected in the future.  This is a stereotype/heuristic processing.  If you've had bad experiences with something, then you'd expect that in the future.  This is why Muslims are the new black.  The same happened with the Japanese and the Chinese and the Jews and the Irish... The same is sort of happening with Hispanics, but Hispanic population is so large that it's difficult target them as a group.


Quote
I mean no disrespect by this post; only only giving my opinion on the matter as you did.
There's no need to apologize for stating your opinion.  This isn't a communist forum. ;)


Offline emill

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #32 on: October 07, 2012, 06:36:11 AM »
When it comes to math, do not mess around. Everybody knows girls are better at math! :) We can use both sides of the brain at the same time! :D ( I was told that by a boy though...)

It is said, though I have not bothered to check if backed by studies that females are better at tasks that require multitasking, perhaps the use of both sides of the brain through a better developed corpus callosum can explain that. Males though are said to be better when it comes to single tasks or a focused task .... chess .... piano...hehheee ;D and math  ;) ;D
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Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #33 on: October 07, 2012, 11:01:26 AM »
you all are all wrong!  except the one that talked about something about synapses and liking....that one was on to something...
(i'm kidding with that statement about you all being wrong btw! ;D 8) )


me=waffle



chicks=spaghetti


http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/files/lwcF_crd_plp_WafflesSpaghetti_Differences.pdf
MEN ARE LIKE WAFFLES
..."Men process life in boxes. If you look down at a waffl e, you see a collection of boxes
separated by walls. The boxes are separate from each other and make convenient
holding places. That is typically how men process life. Their thinking is divided up
into boxes that have room for one issue and one issue only. The fi rst issue of life
goes in the fi rst box, the second goes in the second box, and so on.
The typical man lives in one box at a time and one box only. When a man
is at work, he is at work. When he is in the garage tinkering, he is in the garage
tinkering. When he is watching TV, he is simply watching TV. That is why he looks
as though he is in a trance and can ignore everything else going on around him.
Social scientists call this compartmentalizing—that is, putting life and responsibilities
into different compartments.
A man will strategically organize his life in boxes and then spend most of his
time in the boxes in which he can succeed. Success is such a strong motivation for
him that he will seek out boxes that work and ignore boxes that confuse him or
make him feel like a failure.
The drive to succeed is why men fi nd it so easy to develop hobbies that
consume their time. If a man fi nds something he is good at, it makes him feel
good about himself and about his life. Because men tend to be good with mechanical
and spatial activities, they get emotionally attached to building, fi xing, and
chasing things. Yard projects become expressions of their personalities. Their car
becomes their signature.
The bottom line is this: men feel best about themselves when they are solving
problems. Therefore, they spend most of their time doing what they are best at
while they attempt to ignore the things that cause them to feel defi cient.
WOMEN ARE LIKE SPAGHETTI
Women process life more like a plate of pasta. If you look at a plate of spaghetti,
you notice there are lots of individual noodles that all touch one another. If you
attempt to follow one noodle around the plate, you will intersect a lot of other
noodles, and you might even switch to another noodle seamlessly. Women facelife in this way. Every thought and issue is connected to every other thought and
issue in some way. Life is much more of a process for women than it is for men.
This is why a woman is typically better at multitasking than a man. She can
talk on the phone, prepare a meal, make a shopping list, work on the agenda for
tomorrow’s business meeting, give instructions to her children as they are going
out to play, and close the door with her foot without skipping a beat. As a result,
most women are in pursuit of connecting life together. They solve problems from
a much different perspective than men.
Women consistently sense the need to talk things through. In conversation
they can link together the logical, emotional, relational, and spiritual aspects of
the issue. The links come naturally, so the conversation is effortless. If they are
able to connect all the issues, the answer to the question at hand bubbles to the
surface and is readily accepted...."


if you actually think about it a little bit, it makes sense in this discussion, especially with math, you need to be able to place information in 'boxes' and create 'empty boxes' for information/conclusions you need to solve for, and also many times intermediate 'empty boxes' or 'partial empty' boxes for informaton you need and may have part of the information but need to fill it in order to get to the emtpy box you really want.

that's not to say chicks can't pratice making boxes out of noodles, it just takes a little practice, or a lot, but it's not impossible.   dudes could benefit from punching some holes in the sides of their waffle boxes and letting ideas 'leak out into other parts of the waffle'...i'll stop there as im dangerously close to opening a HUGE can of worms with the implications of my last statement and the issue of misdiagnosed ADD/ADHD...

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #34 on: October 07, 2012, 12:31:46 PM »


me=waffle



chicks=spaghetti



Damn you!
Your post made me very hungry...now I have to cook  >:(

Well, I think I can manage to bake that pizza from the freezer...

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #35 on: October 07, 2012, 12:45:25 PM »
Damn you!
Your post made me very hungry...now I have to cook  >:(

Well, I think I can manage to bake that pizza from the freezer...
outin i worry about you. brains make you hungry? you might be a zombie.

that's okay, i'm sure you are a very pretty zombie. that likes brain pizza. but a pretty one still.

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #36 on: October 07, 2012, 01:01:18 PM »
outin i worry about you. brains make you hungry? you might be a zombie.

that's okay, i'm sure you are a very pretty zombie. that likes brain pizza. but a pretty one still.

I always wondered what the grayish thing was on the pizza...

Wouldn't mind being a zombie I guess, as long as my fingers would not crumble on the keys...But I would never wear something like that!  >:(

Offline 49410enrique

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #37 on: October 07, 2012, 01:12:15 PM »
I always wondered what the grayish thing was on the pizza...

Wouldn't mind being a zombie I guess, as long as my fingers would not crumble on the keys...But I would never wear something like that!  >:(
1:39 seems much more likely to happen

Offline clavile

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #38 on: October 08, 2012, 12:43:02 AM »
From what I've read, there is a gender difference where girls look at math in more practical ways instead of abstractly.  This is fundamentally wrong, as far as math processing goes.  It's like a computer processor trying to find out how to access the internet.  That's the user's job, not the processor.  The processor's job is to make the computations to get you there.  

If any of your teachers have ever lined you up by gender, boys and girls line, or ever said "boys and girls", they hold sexist attitudes.  (I just found out that this is illegal, BTW.)  Also the research doesn't bear out your statement.  Hidden biases are present, but because few people know what it looks like in practice, no one labels these behaviors as sexist.

In order not to like something like math, you have to have had a negative experience with it sometime in the past.  It's not like broccoli which contains chemicals that many children are adverse to.  In this case, there is a biological reason not to like broccoli as a child.  But as for math, there is no biological reason to hate math unless you've had negative experiences in the past.

We all have biases.  For example, I don't like most black people.  I also don't like racists.  But not liking most black people doesn't mean I'm a racist.  All parents have biases, even sexist ones.  It's subtle, e.g. dressing up the girl as a princess on Halloween, or saying how "pretty" she is, etc.  

A bias based on presumed traits is stereotyping.  It is virtually impossible for a person not to hold stereotypes and act according to them.  The brain is limited in this respect to make thought processes faster.  Stereotypes is a way that relieves the brain from having to think.

Dunning-Kreuger Effect: those who are stupid are too stupid to know they are stupid.
The vast majority of women conceded to their gender roles.  They didn't push harder to get what they wanted.  If the idea of gender equality never came into Western consciousness, they'd still be baking bread at home while taking care of their children.
There are few things that men do better than women because of their sex, like muscle strength.
Neither am I.
They prefer to be called black, not African-Americans.  If what you say is true, then why do black people do so poorly in school?  Why are black dropout rates higher than any other racial group?  Why are most prisoners black?  Why do blacks think getting good grades are bad?  Because they think that they are stupid and are aware of the negative stereotypes of blacks.  Look up "stereotype threat".
I did include links to some scientific literature.  It's not air-brained assumptions.  It's based on decades of study and research.  
Actually, stereotypes are what makes the world easier to function.  If you know you've had good experiences with something in the past, the same is expected in the future.  This is a stereotype/heuristic processing.  If you've had bad experiences with something, then you'd expect that in the future.  This is why Muslims are the new black.  The same happened with the Japanese and the Chinese and the Jews and the Irish... The same is sort of happening with Hispanics, but Hispanic population is so large that it's difficult target them as a group.

There's no need to apologize for stating your opinion.  This isn't a communist forum. ;)



Sheesh. There is SO much wrong with that whole post, I almost have nothing to say.

My parents are NOT biased. To say so is rude, especially since you don't even know them. They have no "hidden" biases that they are "unaware" of.

From what you're saying, we can't say a boy is handsome or a girl is pretty for being biased. If this was true then every compliment anybody has ever payed a person has been sexist.

If saying "boys and girls" is sexist, we might as well blot the words boy, girl, men, and women from the English dictionary, and refer to every body as "that person".

Infact, let's remove all gender!

Then we'd all be one big happy non-sexist, non-biased, family!

I also said "scientific idiocy" that means I believe the scientific information provided is stupid. In fact, how can we trust the scientific information? IT MIGHT BE BIASED. The person who wrote it could be SEXIST. Heavens above! We just can't trust anybody can we?

It's sad to see our culture becoming so brainwashed these days.

Teachers need to teach students how to USE their brains not just believe any fatuous information that comes their way.

As for the rest of it, I don't even know how to respond. I don't know how anybody could even THINK to believe that information.


Joy,
Student/Teacher

Student of 4 years

Currently Practicing:
Pirates Of the Carribean- Jarrod Radnich
Mozart Concerto, 2 Piano
Bach Invention
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #39 on: October 08, 2012, 01:01:01 AM »
In speaking of physics, the other day my physics teacher tried to teach me the physics of skateboarding.

He told me that every time I try a trick I should die. 

What the freaking heck?!  He's soooooo ugly for saying that! 

Given the litany of injuries you have recorded as being derived therefrom, he's not far off the mark.  :P
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline outin

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #40 on: October 08, 2012, 03:47:22 AM »
1:39 seems much more likely to happen


LOL

I have seen the movie but I did not even remember there was a piano scene :)

That was actually pretty cool...
"Hey, where did my pinky go? Oh it was just helping me play that 2 octave chord I never was able to do before..."

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #41 on: October 08, 2012, 09:46:20 AM »
Sheesh. There is SO much wrong with that whole post, I almost have nothing to say.

My parents are NOT biased. To say so is rude, especially since you don't even know them. They have no "hidden" biases that they are "unaware" of.

It sounds worse than it is because bias is portrayed as a negative thing.  It not.  It's actually neutral.  We qualify it as negative or positive depending on context but mostly, when "bias" is used, it is used in the negative context.  Here's an example of bias: you're parents care more about you than they do about other children.  If you say they don't have any biases, then they should care the same about other children than they do you.  But they don't.  They are biased toward you.

Quote
From what you're saying, we can't say a boy is handsome or a girl is pretty for being biased. If this was true then every compliment anybody has ever payed a person has been sexist.

If saying "boys and girls" is sexist, we might as well blot the words boy, girl, men, and women from the English dictionary, and refer to every body as "that person".

Infact, let's remove all gender!

The language refers to gender which is neutral.  How we interpret that language is biased.  It reminds us of our gender which leads us to act according to the stereotype.  Acting in accordance to a stereotype is called "stereotype threat".  This is why when blacks are reminded of their race before taking a test, they do badly on the test because blacks are supposed to be stupid.  You see similar behaviors for girls when it comes to certain subjects, like math or science, for example.

In Sweden, they are attempting to rid gender discrimination by using the gender neutral pronoun "hen".
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/04/hen_sweden_s_new_gender_neutral_pronoun_causes_controversy_.html

Quote
I also said "scientific idiocy" that means I believe the scientific information provided is stupid. In fact, how can we trust the scientific information? IT MIGHT BE BIASED. The person who wrote it could be SEXIST. Heavens above! We just can't trust anybody can we?

If you think science is idiotic, then why are you using the internet?  Why do you wear cloths that were designed on a computer?  Manufactured using machines?  On synthetic materials?  Transported on ships?

Why do you even go to the doctor?  Without science, going to the doctor was a terrifying experience since bloodletting and giving you arsenic to cure your ills was standard treatment.  It's no longer done because bloodletting and arsenic kills you.  It was the scientific process that showed that this was the case and alternatives were developed, tested, and used.  The care you get at the doctor is very different from the care just 50 years ago, thanks to the scientific process.

Quote
It's sad to see our culture becoming so brainwashed these days.
Not brainwashed, but kept ignorant.  Ignorance is not bliss.  It's what compelled you to respond to this thread, and I appreciate that you did respond.

Quote
Teachers need to teach students how to USE their brains not just believe any fatuous information that comes their way.
Most teachers don't know how to teach.  They teach the way they were taught which may or may not be effective for learning.  Most teachers, like most people, don't think.  How can a person who doesn't think teach others to think?

Thinking, btw, is metabolically expensive.  It's not in an organisms best interest to think since it uses so much energy.   (The brain is 2% body mass but uses 20% of all the energy.)  Forgetting is actually a survival advantage since a memory of something that is unused uses energy.

And here's the thing about knowledge: you have to have knowledge to understand.  If you don't know anything can you understand anything?


Quote
As for the rest of it, I don't even know how to respond. I don't know how anybody could even THINK to believe that information.
I don't just think it. I believe it.  I'm a psychologist and teacher.  It's in my best interest to study these things because it improves upon how I interact with people/students and teach.

Very often, I come across people who don't want to learn, who think it's a waste of time.  These people are ones who've had bad experiences in the past, making them indifferent to accepting anything that doesn't fit with their own beliefs.  I used to be one of these people.  I was very insecure and as a result, couldn't accept new ideas, especially ones that contradicted by beliefs.   It was not a period of learning; it was a period of wasted time fighting to be right when I was actually wrong.  Time is not something you'll ever get back.  So I learn for the sake that I enjoy it.  As a result, I'm much smarter than I was.  As a result, I'm much more intelligent than I was.

Offline clavile

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #42 on: October 08, 2012, 02:31:02 PM »
It sounds worse than it is because bias is portrayed as a negative thing.  It not.  It's actually neutral.  We qualify it as negative or positive depending on context but mostly, when "bias" is used, it is used in the negative context.  Here's an example of bias: you're parents care more about you than they do about other children.  If you say they don't have any biases, then they should care the same about other children than they do you.  But they don't.  They are biased toward you.

The language refers to gender which is neutral.  How we interpret that language is biased.  It reminds us of our gender which leads us to act according to the stereotype.  Acting in accordance to a stereotype is called "stereotype threat".  This is why when blacks are reminded of their race before taking a test, they do badly on the test because blacks are supposed to be stupid.  You see similar behaviors for girls when it comes to certain subjects, like math or science, for example.

In Sweden, they are attempting to rid gender discrimination by using the gender neutral pronoun "hen".
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/04/hen_sweden_s_new_gender_neutral_pronoun_causes_controversy_.html

If you think science is idiotic, then why are you using the internet?  Why do you wear cloths that were designed on a computer?  Manufactured using machines?  On synthetic materials?  Transported on ships?

Why do you even go to the doctor?  Without science, going to the doctor was a terrifying experience since bloodletting and giving you arsenic to cure your ills was standard treatment.  It's no longer done because bloodletting and arsenic kills you.  It was the scientific process that showed that this was the case and alternatives were developed, tested, and used.  The care you get at the doctor is very different from the care just 50 years ago, thanks to the scientific process.
Not brainwashed, but kept ignorant.  Ignorance is not bliss.  It's what compelled you to respond to this thread, and I appreciate that you did respond.
Most teachers don't know how to teach.  They teach the way they were taught which may or may not be effective for learning.  Most teachers, like most people, don't think.  How can a person who doesn't think teach others to think?

Thinking, btw, is metabolically expensive.  It's not in an organisms best interest to think since it uses so much energy.   (The brain is 2% body mass but uses 20% of all the energy.)  Forgetting is actually a survival advantage since a memory of something that is unused uses energy.

And here's the thing about knowledge: you have to have knowledge to understand.  If you don't know anything can you understand anything?

I don't just think it. I believe it.  I'm a psychologist and teacher.  It's in my best interest to study these things because it improves upon how I interact with people/students and teach.

Very often, I come across people who don't want to learn, who think it's a waste of time.  These people are ones who've had bad experiences in the past, making them indifferent to accepting anything that doesn't fit with their own beliefs.  I used to be one of these people.  I was very insecure and as a result, couldn't accept new ideas, especially ones that contradicted by beliefs.   It was not a period of learning; it was a period of wasted time fighting to be right when I was actually wrong.  Time is not something you'll ever get back.  So I learn for the sake that I enjoy it.  As a result, I'm much smarter than I was.  As a result, I'm much more intelligent than I was.

I think I'm about done here. You're not going to convince me, nor I you.

Biases are part of nature. They're both bad AND good. So my parents love me more than other children. Is that bad? No! It's part of nature. It's the way God made us.

I'm perfectly open to accepting new things and ideas; if they make sense.

I will always think, because thinking is what helps you learn, and forgetting is what makes you stupid. Thinking is a survival advantage, and forgetting is not a survival advantage.

Seriously? Twisting the words of a fifteen year old? I said the information YOU provided(I believe) is stupid. I didn't say all science is stupid. Science is an amazing thing, and I love to study it. Without science, my mother would not be alive today, nor would my grandmother. Without science, we wouldn't have all the AMAZING technology we see today, and know all the awesome things of our beautiful world.

I can safely say you've convinced me never to see a psychologist.



Joy,
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Student of 4 years

Currently Practicing:
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Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #43 on: October 08, 2012, 05:49:27 PM »
I'm not a therapist, I'm a psychologist.  These are two different things but therapists use the word "psychologist" because it sounds better.  A psychologist studies and researches behavior -  a scientist.  A therapist tells you that you have "penis envy" and that your problems are caused by an inability to to form close bonds when the opposite sex.  These are not testable statements.  This is not science.

I was only pointing out what a bias is; everyone has biases, even you since you are biased against hearing certain things.

Learning and forgetting are BOTH survival advantages.  Learning allows one to adapt.  Forgetting allows an organism to save energy.  Similarly, choosing NOT to learn saves energy.

Quote
Seriously? Twisting the words of a fifteen year old?
Since you mentioned your age, you probably think of yourself as different from an adult.  The reason this would be so is because of your upbringing from home, school, and maybe your community.  The mere mention of your age suggests age discrimination is present in your community.  This is true for most communities.  The result of age discrimination is that young people, like yourself, don't trust adults because of the discrimination you've faced.  I've been in the same situation.

There used to be a mantra, before I was even born, not to trust anyone over 30.  This distrust is caused by the discrimination by adults toward youth.  It's the reason why youth are uncomfortable talking to adults.  This behavior is a generalization from the few adults young people have interacted with.  How many adults to young people interact with?  Parents, teachers, and that's usually it.  And how many actually talk to you like you were just a person, not a child?  This is where young people get the idea that all adults are alike.  This is how racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination continue.

Also, I didn't mean to twist your words.  But I did want to point out that the science behind the mentioned articles are valid.  They take hundreds and thousands of people and measure certain qualities.  Then they compile them all to see what qualities are similar or different.  There are clear patterns.  Even though I placed a link to only some of them, there are hundreds of similar studies and experiment that are published in academic journals that show similar findings.  From this perspective, the results are considered in line with previous findings and is therefore said to have "validity".


I sense your distaste for the subject and it is revealed by the anger you have toward it.  This probably occurs because of the way your teachers treat you, both directly and indirectly.  They have biases which probably praise boys over girls for their ability in math.  You aren't born not liking math.  You learn not to like it because of the way you are treated by certain people (i.e. teachers).  If you read one of the articles, it mentions the biases toward boys in math.  Maybe you'll be able to identify this bias the next time your in class and a teacher responds to a boy calling out answers but tells a girl to raise her hand.


From this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416150359.htm

"After analyzing this data, the researchers found disparities between teachers' favorable perceptions of the abilities of their white male students and these students' scores. Conversely, white female students were perceived by teachers to be doing more poorly in their math classes than they actually were."


Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #44 on: October 08, 2012, 05:58:52 PM »
Believing Stereotype Undermines Girls' Math Performance: Elementary School Women Teachers Transfer Their Fear of Doing Math to Girls, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100125172940.htm

This article finds that female teachers who are anxious about their math ability transfers their fear to their female students.  As a result, girls learn not to like math.  I've actually observed the exact thing occur in classrooms in science.  As a result female students score significantly lower in science - 71% of boys scoring proficient or above compared to only 52% of girls proficient or above.  That's a huge difference.

Offline clavile

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #45 on: October 08, 2012, 09:10:11 PM »
I'm not a therapist, I'm a psychologist.  These are two different things but therapists use the word "psychologist" because it sounds better.  A psychologist studies and researches behavior -  a scientist.  A therapist tells you that you have "penis envy" and that your problems are caused by an inability to to form close bonds when the opposite sex.  These are not testable statements.  This is not science.

I was only pointing out what a bias is; everyone has biases, even you since you are biased against hearing certain things.

Learning and forgetting are BOTH survival advantages.  Learning allows one to adapt.  Forgetting allows an organism to save energy.  Similarly, choosing NOT to learn saves energy.
Since you mentioned your age, you probably think of yourself as different from an adult.  The reason this would be so is because of your upbringing from home, school, and maybe your community.  The mere mention of your age suggests age discrimination is present in your community.  This is true for most communities.  The result of age discrimination is that young people, like yourself, don't trust adults because of the discrimination you've faced.  I've been in the same situation.

There used to be a mantra, before I was even born, not to trust anyone over 30.  This distrust is caused by the discrimination by adults toward youth.  It's the reason why youth are uncomfortable talking to adults.  This behavior is a generalization from the few adults young people have interacted with.  How many adults to young people interact with?  Parents, teachers, and that's usually it.  And how many actually talk to you like you were just a person, not a child?  This is where young people get the idea that all adults are alike.  This is how racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination continue.

Also, I didn't mean to twist your words.  But I did want to point out that the science behind the mentioned articles are valid.  They take hundreds and thousands of people and measure certain qualities.  Then they compile them all to see what qualities are similar or different.  There are clear patterns.  Even though I placed a link to only some of them, there are hundreds of similar studies and experiment that are published in academic journals that show similar findings.  From this perspective, the results are considered in line with previous findings and is therefore said to have "validity".


I sense your distaste for the subject and it is revealed by the anger you have toward it.  This probably occurs because of the way your teachers treat you, both directly and indirectly.  They have biases which probably praise boys over girls for their ability in math.  You aren't born not liking math.  You learn not to like it because of the way you are treated by certain people (i.e. teachers).  If you read one of the articles, it mentions the biases toward boys in math.  Maybe you'll be able to identify this bias the next time your in class and a teacher responds to a boy calling out answers but tells a girl to raise her hand.


From this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416150359.htm

"After analyzing this data, the researchers found disparities between teachers' favorable perceptions of the abilities of their white male students and these students' scores. Conversely, white female students were perceived by teachers to be doing more poorly in their math classes than they actually were."



So is it right for you to insult and demean a person's age and social status to make a point?

Let me see... I have about... 50 adult friends I interact with on a regular basis. All of them  voluntarily talk to me, and are interested in what I have to say. I have an immense respect for and trust in the adults I am acquainted with.  You seem to be assuming a lot of things about me that aren't true.

Everybody I know interacts with young and old. The adults interact with the children/teens, and the children/teens interact with the adults, and the children/teens interact with each other.

It's also not only the results of the research I'm against. It's what it's based on, which is stupidity.


I actually am not angry. I'm laughing at most of it. Why get mad over something that you aren't worried about affecting you?  If I had a distaste for it, I wouldn't be responding. You might say I'm trying to hide the fact that I'm "angry" about it, but that wouldn't be true either.

I'm not in a class, either. I'm home schooled. This probably opens a whole bunch of new avenues of things for you to hold over me, but I'm not worried.

None of my teachers praises my brother or me more. We are both congratulated when we do good work, and scolded for bad, and we both see each other scolded or praised. No, the scolding doesn't cause me to do my work worse. It causes a drive for me to do it better.

Joy,
Student/Teacher

Student of 4 years

Currently Practicing:
Pirates Of the Carribean- Jarrod Radnich
Mozart Concerto, 2 Piano
Bach Invention
Mozart Rondo

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #46 on: October 08, 2012, 10:42:41 PM »
You keep on insisting that it's stupid.  What part of it specifically do you not agree with?

I never intended for you to interpret my statement about age as an insult.  It was simply an observation based on specific indicators.  The science of psychology allows one to predict or associate certain behaviors based on other behaviors.  For example, a racist is much more likely to be sexist and homophobic partly because the person categorizes things in simple and superficial terms.  This is easy because it doesn't require thinking or understanding.

Offline clavile

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #47 on: October 08, 2012, 10:53:02 PM »
Your perspective of the research is different from mine, therefore continuation of the topic is futile.

It's been interesting talking with you! I enjoyed the discussion!

Joy,
Student/Teacher

Student of 4 years

Currently Practicing:
Pirates Of the Carribean- Jarrod Radnich
Mozart Concerto, 2 Piano
Bach Invention
Mozart Rondo

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #48 on: October 08, 2012, 11:03:51 PM »
That sounds like a cop out.  Are you sure it isn't because you don't want to look for an actual reason?  How can you disagree without a real reason?

Online Bob

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Re: Why do girls hate math?
«Reply #49 on: October 08, 2012, 11:26:51 PM »
Just to throw it in, I have heard about the unconscious bias.  Teachers tend to call on boys more -- Maybe because they volunteer to answer questions, maybe they're loud and the teacher is getting the to shut up, maybe the teacher thinks they're the one to answer the question, etc. 

That's why teachers do things like randomly drawing student names for answering questions.  Bias... lessened.   Random drawing also takes care of the one kid who keeps raising their hand to answer every question. 

Or covering names when grading assignments.  Same idea.   I forget all the things that can be done.

I was recently thinking that a teacher's perception of students can really sway grades.  I ran into a foreign teacher working here.  Different take on the whole thing.  I was thinking that that teacher could probably sway grades maybe even one or two letters based on what they thought the student should get.  And then you take the extremes -- One student getting a C but acting like an A -- Grade gets raised on everything.  Or a student getting an A but acting more like a C student during off times.  The teacher has a hard time giving them an A and doesn't give an inch gradewise.

And then there's the power of an adult/authority figure over kids.  I've wondered several times.  If I actually said something about a student being overweight... Is that going to cause an eating disorder?

Looks or appearance I wouldn't dare comment on.  Being a guy.  No leeway.  That was really emphasized in college.  Doesn't matter what the gender of the student is.  You never comment on appearance at all.  "I like your t-shirt."  Nope.  You never know how the student will interpret that.  Haha... Actually you can get in trouble for praising them too if it's within earshot of another student -- You just gave out some grade/performance information.  Or the student didn't want anyone to know they did well and you just blew it for them.

Bizarre stuff.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."