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Topic: stronger fingers  (Read 9557 times)

Offline outin

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Re: stronger fingers
Reply #50 on: November 03, 2012, 02:57:18 PM
About your web pages...I am going to be brutally honest now, don't take it the wrong way...I have never managed to really read through any of them, there's just too much explanation and gets very long and tedious to me and I stop reading after a while. Sorry, It's just me, I need things to be short and to the point. This doesn't mean you haven't done good work and don't have some well thought of exercises. When I was struggling I needed to gain some knowledge about the anatomy of the hand and what muscles are involved. Before I did it was very difficult to understand what my teacher wanted me to do and most importantly why...

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: stronger fingers
Reply #51 on: November 03, 2012, 04:27:05 PM
About your web pages...I am going to be brutally honest now, don't take it the wrong way...I have never managed to really read through any of them, there's just too much explanation and gets very long and tedious to me and I stop reading after a while. Sorry, It's just me, I need things to be short and to the point. This doesn't mean you haven't done good work and don't have some well thought of exercises. When I was struggling I needed to gain some knowledge about the anatomy of the hand and what muscles are involved. Before I did it was very difficult to understand what my teacher wanted me to do and most importantly why...

Did you look at the specific posts I linked for you? Earlier posts were much more general, relating to broad background issues. I deliberately avoided going into the absolute specifics for precisely the reasons you describe- because I didn't want to write something subjective that I might later change my mind on. I avoided the core issues until I was sure I had got them in a form I'd be happy with. The posts I linked are totally specific to the most basic essentials of movement in the hand-with scarcely any scientific background at all. I have found value in some of Thomas marks writing, but I find anatomy limited personally. It tells you what your body can and can't do- but it does not directly relate how to perform to the specific actions that are essential to piano playing. For me, understanding which actions to deploy and how to perceive them is more important than anatomy. Anatomy exposes what not to do, but it's only especially revealing when referenced with what makes control and efficiency of energy transfer possible at the instrument. It needs to be viewed in terms of what it is directly relevant to- or you only learn to relax your body better but not to expand the limits of what you can extract from the piano with it. For me this is where Thomas mark falls down- by writing a lot of rationally dubious stuff as soon as he goes from anatomy to playing tips.

I appreciate that some people are not prepared to go into depth and want simple answers, but I avoid that for all the reasons you listed. Simplistic answers will always be subjective ones that can harm as many as they help. However, if you haven't read the particular posts I linked, I'm wondering whether you've misjudged the nature of my core posts, due to having only looked at broader ones. The ones I linked are certainly not complex.

Offline nyiregyhazi

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Re: stronger fingers
Reply #52 on: November 03, 2012, 04:55:22 PM
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When I talk about strengthening the muscles I do not mean to produce more muscle power. I wonder if you are aware, that muscles which are too tense often are so because they are too weak, not because they are too strong.

Are you sure it's this way around? I'd say that the muscles are weak BECAUSE they spend so much time generically tensed. Rather than strengthening them, this kind of activity can atrophy them. In my opinion, exercise helps because it teaches you to let go of them- rather than keep locking them up in a rigid position. Sure, exercise can help to strengthen things- but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's an act of strengthening that has made the difference. It's perfectly logical to think that the exercise just trained you to let go of a tension that was impeding you and that this was the primary source of change.


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To correct the wrist I had to make the forearm muscles stronger to be able to work and relax at will instead of just be cramped or completely unfunctional.

Does strengthening muscles make that happen? I don't personally believe so. I think it's more about the quality of how the hand is connecting to the piano. It's not a case of generically gaining strength and therefore being able to relax at will. The hand of a sumo wrestler can be poorly connected and hence dependent on many tensions. The hand of a hunger-striker can be very well connected and take the whole workload of support off the wrist (when coupled with equally low effort shoulder activity). In most cases, it's a matter of learning how to achieve more efficient balance. From there, some strength does tend to evolve through the actions involved, but I don't believe that generic strength makes it come about. I'd say it's much more likely that you learned how to let go of habitual tensions- which freed you up to perceive useful activities more easily.


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To do so I needed to "find" these muscles, since I had absolutely no inside feeling whether they were cramped, relaxed or even where they were. So I needed exercises that had nothing to do with playing, but getting back this lost "feeling" of what is happening with the muscles.

This very much seems to confirm what I suggest in the previous paragraph. It's about perception- not strength. These are exactly the kind of exercises I include in my blog- those that train you to release the specific efforts that serve no pianistic function while training you to perceive those that are can be objectively proven as indispensable.

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As you know the muscles involved are not necessarily at the pivot, so I assumed you would not misinterpret what I wrote about the wrist and muscle balance.

I wrote what I did, because it's very unusual for anyone to blame weak muscles for wrist issues- while actually referring to the muscles that connect the hands to the keys. If you'd immediately said that you were talking about insufficient quality of connection to the keyboard, I'd have seen what you mean. However, the fact that you were talking of "strength" made me assume you were looking at precisely that. I think what you are referring to as development "strength" is primarily a process of having learned to release muscles that were previously hampering you- not a case of improving due to added muscular strength. It's much more about what the brain asks the muscles to do than how strong they are. Bad alignments make you feel like you need more strength- but it's more about fine tuning muscular actions, so you involve the useful ones and eliminate the counterproductive ones.

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