A pianostreet thought..

[ajspiano]

In the name of participation, because I like that..  I have a proposal..  one that may never take off but whatever..

Normally, I don’t like piano competitions because I think that the art shouldn’t be competitive, however it can spark participation and learning which I really do like. I also really like piano street, because pretty much every waking minute I’d like to be talking about piano – and piano street provides that to a degree when I don’t have real life people to talk to - its cool to have a whole community of piano fanatics available 24/7.

SO, suppose we had a pianostreet piano competition – because that would possibly mean more direct involvement in a single thread than normal.. and therefore more opinions/perspectives on actual music (rather than whether or not you should do this/that/the-other in order to play faster, or endless debates about which chopin etude is hardest).

……..

Here’s what I think would be reallllly cool.. or at least underlying principles that may make it work..

• A small entry fee, enough to make sure entrants actually post performances on time so they don't lose out..  but small enough that no one really gives a damn if they lose, and no one will be tempted to organize a scam to run on my next point.
• winner is voted by the participants/viewers
• Performances adjudicated by a senior and useful pianostreet member (I'm thinking people like rachfan/birba/mayla/marik if they are around and willing [or any number of the other great members]) - this is so there is feedback and value to everyone who enters. Who actually does this could also be voted on by participants out of those willing.
• Grade and work duration limit  - to make it accessible to beginner/intermediate students, and force more advanced players to put real effort into music and not just show off technical skills to win votes
• maximum 10 entrants (per run? if it worked and caught on..) - so voting doesn't take forever and people are willing to watch all performances.. and so the adjudicator doesn't flip a biscuit with the length of time it takes to comment on everyone
• maybe a repertoire theme? such as a composer or period

Any further thoughts/ideas welcome..

EDIT:
Also, Nils..  if you feel it would be totally inappropriate to orchestrate such a thing via PS please feel free to weigh in with a cease and desist order.

EDIT 2:
Anyone who would be interested in participating in such a thing please just say so in a reply.. 
Also, anyone who would be willing to "judge" please do so as well, - now that I think about it I don't think this needs to be anyone that is super competent, just willing to take the time give thoughtful comment on ALL entrants.

[j_menz]

Sounds like a good idea. My only thought is why not a set piece per round? That way people could have a look at how long it would take them to learn something and target their round. To get it started, some of the more advanced pianists would be in the first rounds unless someone else had actually done the piece, but would even out in due course.

[keypeg]

I'm in major remediation.  I have some traumatic stuff behind me from another instrument which was the first one I ever had lessons on, because of an injury.  I like the idea of people posting their playing, getting feedback and help and encouragement.  There is no way that I would take part in a competition.  How would that even be fair?  Some people have had years of lessons since childhood.  Some of us are limping along, undoing stuff from when we were forced to self teach, or were mistaught.  I've just started to get the taste back of wanting to do pieces at all.  It's been a rough ride.  Why, in music, must there be winners and losers?  Why should music ever be a "competition"?  Isn't it supposed to be a way of expressing and communicating?  Sorry, this has caught me on a bad day.

If there is a competition, I will listen and enjoy the music.  I will not judge.

[m1469]

Thanks, I consider it a compliment of course to be put in the adjudicator bracket, but I want to enter it and win as a competitor  .  I like the idea, actually.  I would say it wouldn't be fair for Marik to judge me, but probably he would be the toughest out of anybody  :-.

I would like to enter with Mozart, Bach, Ginastera, Rachmaninov  

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Ajs, are we the same person?

Because I was thinking of the EXACT same thing!

I'll enter.



But we have to figure out how many rounds, and how long the duration for each round should be.

Perhaps two or three rounds, no longer than 10 or 15 minutes per round?  This isn't the Tchaikovsky competition here...

[ajspiano]

@J_menz
I agree that a set piece would work FAR better, however initially I feel like unless all of a sudden there was 100 respondants to this thread then the chose piece may turn to many people off..  although I guess its another thing that could be voted on...   If we could plan several rounds into the future that would be great..  but at this stage I'm a little worried that if it was 3 months down the track say, entrants would bail out.. so I was kind of looking at rep that people either already have or could learn relatively quickly.

@mayla
I certainly wasn't cutting those names from entering. I was just listing a few people who I know are capable of giving a teaching perspective type comment.

@keypeg
Thats why I was said there would be a limit on grades..   such as round X, grade 4 works only.  that way people who are comfortable with the level can enter.. and people who are way over the top can go in a higher level round - since for someone with say, my experience, there's not a whole lot of value in entering and beating a bunch of beginners - there would be such limited pay off and it'd just make me look like a prick...  The repertoire would be set so that entrants do not face a high technical barrier based on their personal experience, and so that a relative beginner who makes a real effort practicing could actually beat an advanced pianist who just reads their piece on sight.

...

the other option would be to split fee's between anyone who both participates AND makes the effort to comment on all participants.

[ajspiano]

Perhaps two or three rounds, no longer than 10 or 15 minutes per round?  This isn't the Tchaikovsky competition here...

I was actually thinking of something substantially smaller..  If we can get enough entrants to produce a program of that nature then sure..   but that would be a big task..

I mean..  2 rounds times 15 mins, thats 30 mins of rep, times 10 entrants.. potentially 5 hours total performances..  its too much for someone to comment on.

...

Obviously it has to be something that enough people are interested in doing though..  so you know.. let the people speak..

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I was actually thinking of something substantially smaller..  If we can get enough entrants to produce a program of that nature then sure..   but that would be a big task..

I mean..  2 rounds times 15 mins, thats 30 mins of rep, times 10 entrants.. potentially 5 hours total performances..  its too much for someone to comment on.

...

Obviously it has to be something that enough people are interested in doing though..  so you know.. let the people speak..

I said 15 minutes max.  You can go waay underboard that if you wanted. 

One round maybe?

[outin]

Why not...I know many people get motivated by competition.
Personally I have never understood the point of competing in any field. Winning makes me just as uncomfortable than losing. And I hate to see someone fail, when they have worked hard to achieve something. But I do like to see/hear great performances and people often rise to a new level when there's something to gain. And I like to compare different interpretations of music and discuss them.

But lets not make it too serious, no bribing the judges or conspiring behind the scenes  

[ajspiano]

*wonders if nils would let me spam members with an entry form at some point..

So what if there's one round, entrants present - hypothetically - 1 set work, and 1 work of their own choice.

All entrants put in US$10...   $5 gets returned to you, IF you provide a thoughtful comment on all other entrants..   Whatever is left after the comment deadline is split between the top 3 performers.. money to be held in a (i don't want to say "my" but I'd be willing to do it) paypal account.. this is a problem because I hardly think its fair to expect people to trust me via a web forum.. also because paypal would be all "TRANSACTION FEEEEE!! "

All entrants, and observers will have the opportunity to vote on the top performers.

Voting means giving 3 points for the 1st, 2 for the second, and 1 for 3rd - voting for yourself is not allowed. This is to be PM'd to a non entrant. The top 3 performers will get named in no specific order and receive their share of the prize, exact votes do not get posted publicly.

...any further thoughts?

[j_menz]

Looks good to me.

Only thought is that $10US may be more than a token for some of our younger members. Or maybe I'm turning into my great Aunt (who continued to think a shilling was serious money until the day she died).

[outin]

Why money? Isn't fame enough? 

[ajspiano]

Looks good to me.

Only thought is that $10US may be more than a token for some of our younger members.

10 was an arbitrary figure, I'm open to suggestion.

Outin, money is just to ensure that participants see it through rather than bail out at the last second..

[costicina]

Great idae, AJ...A sort of Audition room but much more structured and motivating. What puzzles m most is the program, i.e. who and how will decide their content, levels etc. What if we limit the program to just one piece, chosen by the entrant, and put in the proper category/level by the judges board?
Anyway, the main idea is appalling, I'm in!!!!!!

[johnmar78]

ok, good idea AJ, how about put me in  in the category of under(1-2) hour a day. or under 6 hours  a week cat.
I am sure some of you do  more than that this would put in more ADVANCED catetgory.
agree??

[zezhyrule]

Anyway, the main idea is appalling

I agree.

(sorry, I had to)

Yes this certainly sounds interesting. I will keep watch to see what comes of this!

[keypeg]

since for someone with say, my experience, there's not a whole lot of value in entering and beating a bunch of beginners -

Performing to me means communicating the music to an audience, which is a combination of the composer's message and what the musician senses in it.  If I show a bouquet of flowers and say "Aren't they lovely?" will the response be, "You lose."?  If you see performing and music this way, then it is impossible for anyone to "beat" someone if they both perform music.  In that sense you cannot "beat" a beginner or anyone else.  Philosophically speaking.

Something would be spoiled for me.  Even if I were to "win" in my "category", it means someone else has "lost", and how will they feel?  If music is personal, will it be the same?  What I have liked about these forums is that they are a safe place for people to share their playing, get help in how to improve, experience that others may actually like what they have done.

I was just talking with someone about preparing a piece and posting it for the first time.   Then I saw this new thread.   Now I'm not so sure. 

[ajspiano]

While I agree with you as a generalization (I think many piano competitions are abhorrent) I don't think that competition has to be that way. My intent here is not really to label winners and losers so much as recognize successes - and do so as a group, not to have a group judged as individuals.

Seeing that someone is better than you does not render your performance invalid either. It's an exercise in learning and developing as a musician - not one that exists to rank competitors like a sport. However, I understand that people can be anxious about posting performances, especially in situations where you may potentially be compared to others or judged in any way..  I've been put in competitions and been so shaky that I pretty much couldn't play, and I've made colossal errors in front of others that left me somewhat embarrassed - so I can understand your perspective, but others are not in your position and are comfortfortable being scrutinized and compared to others..

I would hate to discourage you from posting your efforts in any other thread for advice, the forum is a great place to do that - and it is "safe". It's certainly not compulsory to be involved here (if we do actually do this) in this form. I'm only suggesting that it would be beneficial for some of us to all work on the same piece, all present it, all talk about each others performances whether good or bad.

I feel like using this form may make that sense of community accessible to students at a lower level, comparatively to the "project" threads - which were awesome but also generally out of reach for a lot of people because the repertoire was generally grade 7-8 or higher.

[outin]

I am sure there are many piano students like me who just go to their lesson and practice alone, or even have no teacher, never meeting any other piano students or have no opportunity to go to even very small local competition. For me it's a choice, but for some there might not be any other possibility. Some of those people may actually like competition and feel something lacking in their piano experience, so I can see that for those this would be a great experience.

[costicina]

or even have no teacher, never meeting any other piano students or have no opportunity to go to even very small local competition.  I can see that for those this would be a great experience.

Exactly what I thought. The 'competition' situation could be an incentive, an additional motivation, in short a useful mean to improve.

What about categorizing by composer, and set of opus of a given composer? Just an idea....

[m1469]

BOOM, it's not quite 4am where I live and I'm about ready to get practicing  ...

[49410enrique]

seems legit. wait a minute....



*wonders if this is some new 'get rich quick' scheme, with the OP at the top of some new money pyramid, waits for piano competition signs to start appearing around the neighborhood. recalls that last great idea he saw.....




*waits for the fine print with all the age limits....

[ajspiano]

*wonders if this is some new 'get rich quick' scheme, with the OP at the top of some new money pyramid

..that's definately my style, the 100$ I could rip off every one once would be totally worth it.

Seriously though, I would rather do it without money involvement - but I really think there needs to be something to keep people involved.. At least some kind of tangable incentive..  Nils could sponsor it with a free 6 month gold membership? Maybe I'll PM him... Some of us have that already though.. Or are content buying actual scores and using imslp.

If there was going to be money I'd rather piano street accept funds than myself, it's just an option. I wouldn't send money to a stranger over a web forum myself. I doubt the PS overlords would want to be involved with managing something so small time though.

*waits for the fine print with all the age limits....

Everyone is allowed except those that are enriques exact age at this exact second - Enrique please advise your age to the minute, as at 11:19pm Australian eastern standard time.

[unholeee]

I have nothing to lose win. I will participate.

[keypeg]

I wonder if some of us who would like to participate with the named piece(s) but not subject our music to judgment of winners and losers could work on the piece get someone to look at it to give advice and feedback, without having this winner/loser thing.  Maybe privately.

It's a real tease, because I would love to work on a piece that a group of people are doing, and learn from it.  But the competition factor is stopping any thought of participating.

[costicina]

You could think of a competition with yourself: a kind of stimulus to do your best, as relative as it can be....

[keypeg]

You could think of a competition with yourself: a kind of stimulus to do your best, as relative as it can be....

I am extremely motivated.  I am already doing my best.  I do not want to be part of a competition with others when it comes to music, because that alters what performing is for me.  It seems that some people here do like competitions and they should be able to enjoy it.  The idea of working on a piece that others are working on, and comparing notes and learning, is very attractive.  But if this is in the form of a competition with winners and losers, I can't.  For those of us who feel this way and would like to learn, the only thing I can think of is to have somebody look at what we do privately, and give feedback.

[teenagepiano]

..that's definately my style, the 100$ I could rip off every one once would be totally worth it.

Seriously though, I would rather do it without money involvement - but I really think there needs to be something to keep people involved.. At least some kind of tangable incentive..  Nils could sponsor it with a free 6 month gold membership? Maybe I'll PM him... Some of us have that already though.. Or are content buying actual scores and using imslp.

If there was going to be money I'd rather piano street accept funds than myself, it's just an option. I wouldn't send money to a stranger over a web forum myself. I doubt the PS overlords would want to be involved with managing something so small time though.

Everyone is allowed except those that are enriques exact age at this exact second - Enrique please advise your age to the minute, as at 11:19pm Australian eastern standard time.

A free gold membership would be decent I guess, but personally I'd rather that there be no monetary prize or entry fee.

[scherzo123]

I I want to vote for the winner as one of the viewers  .

[j_menz]

I wonder if some of us who would like to participate with the named piece(s) but not subject our music to judgment of winners and losers could work on the piece get someone to look at it to give advice and feedback, without having this winner/loser thing.  Maybe privately.

One of the reasons I suggested a "set" piece was so that one could see what other people did with the piece and how other people reacted to different approaches.  We often do a piece either on our own or in collaboration with just one teacher. This is a legitimate, but limited perspective and there is some advantage in broadening that.

The winner/loser thing is really no more than an aggregated  "liked that better". While you may not like it, but it is something we do all the time with professional recordings or other performances. Seeing how that adds up should be interesting. It doesn't invalidate an interpretation if you don't win, but it would suggest that it perhaps doesn't resonate with others as you might have thought. And the feedback should be interesting.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I think this should implement losers and winners.  Because I can imagine some people haven't been in a competition before due to whatever circumstances, and I think we should kinda get an idea of what it's like to compete against people, and to be judged.

[keypeg]

I think this should implement losers and winners.  Because I can imagine some people haven't been in a competition before due to whatever circumstances, and I think we should kinda get an idea of what it's like to compete against people, and to be judged.

Why?  What does that have to do with performance of music?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Why?  What does that have to do with performance of music?

I already explained why.

Besides, if it wasn't a competition, what would the point be?  If you want feedback, then why don't you just post something in the audition room and ask for feedback?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It's a real tease, because I would love to work on a piece that a group of people are doing, and learn from it.  But the competition factor is stopping any thought of participating.

Why wouldn't you just post it in the audition room and not participate in the competition?

[keypeg]

I already explained why.

Besides, if it wasn't a competition, what would the point be?  If you want feedback, then why don't you just post something in the audition room and ask for feedback?

I don't understand the question or the answer.  The point of several people playing the same piece is that it is interesting to see how people interpret the same piece, and the point is feedback and responses.  

Again - what does competition have to do with performing music?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Again - what does competition have to do with performing music?

I don't know about me, because I haven't been in a competition, but I heard that often times competitions brings out the best performances in people.

The point of several people playing the same piece is that it is interesting to see how people interpret the same piece, and the point is feedback and responses.

ajs proposed a pianostreet competition.  That's the reason why he suggested an enrollment fee.    If you want feedback, then why wouldn't you just post something in the audition room and see what other people have to say about it?

I don't understand the question or the answer

What don't you understand?

[keypeg]

nevermind

[lloyd_cdb]

I like the idea.  I probably won't participate for the first few rounds if it ends up lasting. Once I actually have a chance to buy some recording equipment, I'll participate.  

Personally, my opinion in regards to competitions is that they are completely optional. Those who don't like them do not NEED to participate, but may be encouraged to get out of their comfort zone.  Those who participate are usually motivated to learn quickly and also improve their practice efficiency.  This coming from someone who refused to perform in college.  I play piano mainly for relaxation (second to actually hearing the music, clearly). Since I've always found stress in performance, it defeats the entire purpose.  However, now that I don't have as much time to play anymore, it might actually serve to motivate me to spend my time practicing instead of playing (the eternal struggle).

keypeg,

After the competition piece is released, maybe just post it in the recording section for comments instead of with the competition thread.  It serves the same purpose, without the chance someone accidentally puts you in the ranking.  You could always just mention in your thread that you would prefer private messages.

[lloyd_cdb]

In addition, I think there is a distinct difference between "winners and losers" and being ranked last.  It is a comparison to preferences in expressing the music, not who can cross the finish line first.  It's almost completely subjective, so it's not as if you need to change a performance you like just to please other people.

[ajspiano]

So I was thinking there could be a competition piece thread, for entrants AND the general forum membership to discuss the work and learning strategies/ideas. So people can be in the discussion even if they don't plan on presenting the piece as part of the competition element. Non entrants would obviously be welcome to post in the audition room, or ask anyone privately for advice.

Anyone who does want to enter will need to put their name forward early, and recordings submitted by a set date. There can be a "competition thread" that contains an OP of the set requirements, the entrants recordings and the results at the bottom...?

As far as recording quality - personally my most accessible option is using my phone to upload a video to YouTube, which isn't great but I think it's sufficient.. I'm not looking to prevent anyone from being involved because they don't own decent recording gear.

...

If people are particularly keen, we are going to need to start talking repertoire - bare in mind that this needs to be inclusive.. I don't want to isolate it to the upper echellon of piano street by setting advanced works.. And I think that easier works provides an opportunity to dig deeper musically for those more advanced.

At this stage I have too little idea of where everyone is at to categorize everyone by level so we are going to have to leave that option alone for a while. I also think entry fee is out for the time being, but may be an option later if it keeps going. I will be asking nils if he'll offer a few memberships though, but we will need good participation for that to be possible or continue in further runs.. For nils to care this will have to promote piano street's service and bring people here from outside.

...so repertoire suggestions welcome.. Please don't hesitate, and if you don't like someone's suggestion, say so and say why..

I propose (completely hypothetically) - an I'm picking relatively easy and very well known stuff here, we can do something tougher (or even easier) later.

Option 1 -
A clementi sonatina

Option 2 -
A Bach little prelude

Option 3 -
Chopin prelude 4,6,7 or 20

[rachmaninoff_forever]

tside.

...so repertoire suggestions welcome.. Please don't hesitate, and if you don't like someone's suggestion, say so and say why..

I propose (completely hypothetically) - an I'm picking relatively easy and very well known stuff here, we can do something tougher (or even easier) later.

Option 1 -
A clementi sonatina

Option 2 -
A Bach little prelude

Option 3 -
Chopin prelude 4,6,7 or 20

Instead of having a list of repertoire for people to choose from, why don't we do something along the lines of...

Play something that's harder than _________, but easier than ____________.  So people would have more variety to choose from.  

I know that a politically correct person would say that difficulty is subjective, but whatever dude...

[chopin2015]

Tell me more, what pieces? How will this work? I don't like competitions because I will have to see you guys again when I want to talk about piano and then you will all know I suck

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Tell me more, what pieces? How will this work? I don't like competitions because I will have to see you guys again when I want to talk about piano and then you will all know I suck

And watch how you're better than all of us...

And for pieces?  I don't know, let's say between the difficulty of Chopin prelude 4 and... 

And...

And...

One of the Chopin nocturnes or something?

[chopin2015]

And watch how you're better than all of us...

hahaha you will never know!! Just kidding, but seriously I usually take a really long time with pieces after I learn them before I am ok with preforming them for people. So If there is going to be a competition, we will need either a set repertoire list which we will have to prepare for, or a set of rules, which we might still have to prepare for to qualify, for some of us. Just let us know what you are thinking, Aj!

[ajspiano]

let's say between the difficulty of Chopin prelude 4 and... 

One of the Chopin nocturnes or something?

That could be represented by grade 4-7 on the pianostreet repertoire listing.

Perhaps that could represent the "own choice" component.

It would mean there's room for a more advanced student to choose something interesting for themselves and for intermediates to choose something technically manageable but not too far behind what others may play.

...

Then we could select a fixed piece to go along with that..

[chopin2015]

So how many pieces total? 3? 5? It might be good to start small and see what happens!

[outin]

A Scarlatti Sonata must be included of course! I might even consider participation...

[rachmaninoff_forever]

That could be represented by grade 4-7 on the pianostreet repertoire listing.

Perhaps that could represent the "own choice" component.

It would mean there's room for a more advanced student to choose something interesting for themselves and for intermediates to choose something technically manageable but not too far behind what others may play.

...

Then we could select a fixed piece to go along with that..

Sounds good.  I agree with what Chopin134535267544537997689575 said, we should keep it small.

How about one round, you have to select one of the fixed pieces to play, and two pieces of your choice that has to be in contrasting style of each other?

Or just one piece of your choice?

[chopin2015]

Agreed, 2 or 3 pieces total, sounds good.

[ajspiano]

So how many pieces total? 3? 5? It might be good to start small and see what happens!

I'm thinking just 1 or 2 at this stage. There will be too many of us that can't commit to preparing a larger program without there being several months prep time. I'm kind of hoping for not more than 4-6 weeks from entry to recording being submitted - but I don't know how everyone will feel about that.. I really want people who are just tackling say grade 3-4 now to be able to have a go.

I know whatever I/we say there will be some of us that say it's too easy and some that say it's too hard though..

It's difficult, I'm really glad that there are a number of people interested but I don't think there is enough just yet..  

Once I have a clearer idea I'll probably post a competition entry thread with exact details and leave it open for 1 or 2 weeks, with an entry deadline or something.