Project: Rachmaninoff’s 3rd Piano Concerto

[the89thkey]

Did u watch lisitsa practice? She had videos

Where are these videos? I'm interested.

[the89thkey]

Either way i feel its a trap.. just with more punch than a fly trap.

opening vs random bars from later..



^probably didnt pick bars that are that difficult comparatively to many others...

You're right, those bars are pretty easy compared to some other parts of the first movement...I learned them in about 10 minutes

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Where are these videos? I'm interested.

It was on live stream.

[johnmar78]

Aj, I liked the music, but have never seem the score. well, you have provided here, great. I will JOIN you....take a small section at a time. I liked the techincal challenge.
 
Cheers.

[chopin2015]

Great! Sounds like you are having quite a go at it ! I certainly wish I could say I have looked at all chopin etudes. Anyways, I do think that the tempo was too fast though, in the video hence the lag in some execution of notes, slightly. It is a good tempo goal but do mind when you practice. My teacher here who is all about Neuhaus, he is really strict when it comes to execution of difficuklt things. If you are going to do it, we all think you are brave and able, dont feel any pressure to impress, take as much time as needed on proper execution which is best done at a solid tempo, obviously. I am currently working on Sonata no 7 beethoven, Bach P and f no 2 book 1 chopin this and that and mephisto valse, ofcourse. Look forward to preparing a romantic sonata some time soon but certainly nothing modern or impressioninst, sadly. haha
Anyways, that was my update here from Russia. I hope to post some pictures soon, maybe when I get ready to go back. I have bought tons of sheet music and quite inexpensive-it was.

[ajspiano]

Just a quick post Christmas update. Haven't made a huge amount of progress as I haven't been able to play a great deal. This shows the completed first practice section but I've omitted the easy part.. and it's just piano solo. Some eveness to iron out me thinks.. and a bunch of voicing dynamics to adjust.. but it's progress.

Anyway.. on with the show..

[p2u_]

This shows the completed first practice section but I've omitted the easy part.. and it's just piano solo.
youtube.com/watch?v=l93LcMGiXKI

Ajs, when I click the link, it says that access has been restricted. What do I need to do to see it (listen to it)? Please, don't tell me I need a YouTube account.

Paul

[costicina]

  Please, pleae,make it public domain!!!

[p2u_]

Please, pleae,make it public domain!!!

Relax, costicina. The "musical rights societies" are probably just checking bar by bar whether ajs has copied any of their famous artist X's fingerings...

Paul

[austinarg]

I hope you are going to do the ossia cadenza, right? 

[ajspiano]

Arrrg I swear I put it as unlisted not private..  I've just changed it now so it can be publicly viewed (hopefully) no doubt I screwed it up before as I'm getting used to using a new phone.

Yes I'm doing the ossia cadenza.

To elaborate on the video, its just bars 28 to 52 (think those numbers are right ..?) - the same section as in my previous video but going beyond where I previously stopped for lack of practice

I'll probably leave this section alone for a while now, save a slow run through a day, and maybe a run of swing rhythm work to fix the uneveness.

[costicina]

AWESOME!!!!! There are no 'impossibile' pieces for you: you can play whatever you like withe the utomost satisfaction. Brnhard has something to do with this, but most is left to you undeniable, brilliant talent for music.
Please don't disert PS, we badly need you and your alike!!!!

[elenka]

Hi! your starting practising is very good, congraulation! Where did you get the accompaiment playback with the orchestra part? is a midi file or you found somewhere the base of the concert?

[nocturnetr]

Hi! your starting practising is very good, congraulation! Where did you get the accompaiment playback with the orchestra part? is a midi file or you found somewhere the base of the concert?

Music Minus One- The loyal servant of Concerto learners

[ajspiano]

Alright - here's a screen-shot for part of section i've been toying with. Its not that hard.. but then it is. Its freaking hard.

For starters it has 3 clear voices and the control over the dynamics is absolutely imperative. Its not like some situations where you can get away with being a bit sloppy. In this page or so of notes - especially the first few bars - you are totally exposed with the orchestra absent.

The middle voice demands the lightest of touches, it needs this ultra soft controlled dynamic but it has to be played so fluently and confidently. It sits against the RH melody which wouldn't be such a big deal but the melody is this gorgeous singing legato line.. even that wouldnt be so bad, but the FINGERING is either batshit uncomfortable or non-legato. Seriously, the touch and use of pedal here has to be freaking exquisite to generate the right sound..  it means you kind of drop on to every melody note, but have to do so without sounding like you're plodding along like a middle aged mob of cattle. I can do that fine on its own.. it doesnt come out quite right when I play the middle voice aswell, and within the context of rubato/phrasing for the whole section.

Also, you'll see I've highlighted the 2 poly-rhythmic parts. Now its just a 3 vs 4 which is easily managaged but they have the added challenge of the 4 being split between the hands and it the first one being at a fairly pivotal point in the section right on a rit. So while I can play it I'm never happy with it.

Overall I can play the notes pretty ok, in time and the like. But at this stage, musically, my playing leaves me so unsatisfied - it doesn't come out how it sounds it my head I mean. Gah. Don't get me started on the reprise of this theme that occurs in the cadenza.. again not that bad notes wise, but its demanding a level of touch control for the LH arpeggiated chords that I don't quite have - its coming along, but its just not there yet and its frustrating me no end. Perhaps I should spend some more time with chopin 10/11.

Life would be easier if I was less pedantic about these things I guess. Will post a video of this section soon.



In the meantime, the blonde beauty that one of our forum members fawns all over plays it pretty nicely here..  starting ~3:00.

[austinarg]

I forgot to ask you something about the score you use, does it only have the piano parts? Or is it a full orchestral or 2 pianos score?

[ajspiano]

I forgot to ask you something about the score you use, does it only have the piano parts? Or is it a full orchestral or 2 pianos score?

I have a digital version with the orchestra parts, and the one I posted there with just piano.

The score I work from at the piano is a 2 pianos score.

[ajspiano]

So last night I worked on the above section some more, giving a decent chunk of time to listening to Mrs Lisitsa's solo work.. and playing in time with her performance both HS and HT.. I discovered what is making me feel like my playing is so crappy (how exciting!).

So its something that I knew about but I guess "forgot to remember" in this context or something.

..So last nights actual playing practice involved altering the timing of notes within each voice in relation to the pulse. This is particularly evident when notes are supposedly together.

Task one - play the entire melody behind the pulse.
Task two - play the entire melody in front of the pulse.

^During these two activities the other two voices are almost describable as metronomic in a way - in that they are smack on the pulse - but there is still rubato over the whole passage.

Then..

Task 3 - play the lower voice in front and or behind the pulse
Task 4 - where there is 3 voices all together experiment with landing the notes in different orders.

What happens is they are essentially together, but there is the most marginal of gaps in time between voices on the beat/pulse. It highlights the contrapuntal element because if 3 people played this, 1 voice each, they would almost never be perfectly in time.. but its great because you can control very specifically who is in front or behind and therefore alter the feel/movement of the passage.

Notes behind the pulse have a sense of accent without you having to increase the volume and they also create a sense of slowing or anticipation of the note without you really having to slow the tempo. Notes in front give a sense of accent/forward movement. They allow a listener to feel as if they dont know quite whats coming even if they do know..

I remember learning this ages ago from ringo starr in an interview. Awesome drummer.

"You know, i'm different - people say they can tell if I'm drumming but they dont know why. I know why. Its the thwack. Most guys, they hit right on the thwack.. me, I hit at the end of thwack.. it gives it a different feel".

I use this all the time with single voice lines against an accompaniment. Particularly evident in the opening of this concerto. Can't believe I didnt think to manipulate it in multiple ways between multiple voices in this passage until now.

[chopin2015]

So last night I worked on the above section some more, giving a decent chunk of time to listening to Mrs Lisitsa's solo work.. and playing in time with her performance both HS and HT.. I discovered what is making me feel like my playing is so crappy (how exciting!).

So its something that I knew about but I guess "forgot to remember" in this context or something.

..So last nights actual playing practice involved altering the timing of notes within each voice in relation to the pulse. This is particularly evident when notes are supposedly together.

Task one - play the entire melody behind the pulse.
Task two - play the entire melody in front of the pulse.

^During these two activities the other two voices are almost describable as metronomic in a way - in that they are smack on the pulse - but there is still rubato over the whole passage.

Then..

Task 3 - play the lower voice in front and or behind the pulse
Task 4 - where there is 3 voices all together experiment with landing the notes in different orders.

What happens is they are essentially together, but there is the most marginal of gaps in time between voices on the beat/pulse. It highlights the contrapuntal element because if 3 people played this, 1 voice each, they would almost never be perfectly in time.. but its great because you can control very specifically who is in front or behind and therefore alter the feel/movement of the passage.

Notes behind the pulse have a sense of accent without you having to increase the volume and they also create a sense of slowing or anticipation of the note without you really having to slow the tempo. Notes in front give a sense of accent/forward movement. They allow a listener to feel as if they dont know quite whats coming even if they do know..

I remember learning this ages ago from ringo starr in an interview. Awesome drummer.

"You know, i'm different - people say they can tell if I'm drumming but they dont know why. I know why. Its the thwack. Most guys, they hit right on the thwack.. me, I hit at the end of thwack.. it gives it a different feel".

I use this all the time with single voice lines against an accompaniment. Particularly evident in the opening of this concerto. Can't believe I didnt think to manipulate it in multiple ways between multiple voices in this passage until now.

Ya, its better to "play with the tempo" expressing freedom and full control, rather than behind tempo, lacking accents and structure. Im also going to quote you into the perv post haha! Ttyl

[j_menz]

Ya, its better to "play with the tempo" expressing freedom and full control, rather than behind tempo, lacking accents and structure. Im also going to quote you into the perv post haha! Ttyl

Read AJ's post again. I rather think you've missed the point.

[chopin2015]

Read AJ's post again. I rather think you've missed the point.

I think im using quotation marks wrong. I meant play with the tempo in a creative way, not literally.

[chopin2015]

Or perhaps expressive, rather than creative? Unless i were to use "creative" non-exclusively.

[ajspiano]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. This wasn't about playing with the tempo, whether creatively or expressively is the right term. The tempo is played with, in use of rubato - but that is a separate idea to playing in and around the pulse on any given note. Tempo is different to pulse..  whatever tempo you're at there is pulse which I'm saying you can play on, before or after, without altering or playing with the tempo at all.

Also, what did I say that was worthy of the perv thread?? edit: oh i see now lol.

[j_menz]

but its great because you can control very specifically who is in front or behind and therefore alter the feel/movement of the passage.

 

[ajspiano]

I wonder which variant causes a stronger pulse?

[chopin2015]

I'm not sure what you're getting at. This wasn't about playing with the tempo, whether creatively or expressively is the right term. The tempo is played with, in use of rubato - but that is a separate idea to playing in and around the pulse on any given note. Tempo is different to pulse..  whatever tempo you're at there is pulse which I'm saying you can play on, before or after, without altering or playing with the tempo at all.

Also, what did I say that was worthy of the perv thread?? edit: oh i see now lol.

Youre right, tempo is still steady in rubato and you play with the pulse. Im uding the terms loosely.  I was just agreeing with you. Lol just substitute every time i said tempo with pulse...

[pts1]

AJ

I have to laugh -- not at you, but with you!

This piece is such a monster, and I think you're doing well from what I've heard.

I know the Second Concerto and the Paganini Variations though I haven't learned No. 3.

I assume the third is the most difficult although paradoxically Rachmaninoff thought the 2nd was harder and preferred to play the third!

At least for me it is simply exhausting to wade through the jungle of notes that is Rachmaninoff when first trying to learn his works. The melodies are there but literally entwined with the vines and undergrowth of harmonies and dissonances weaving and blooming throughout.

And this is one of the most dense if not the densest of his compositions.

But denseness should not imply "heavy", IMHO.

I think lightness and quickness of touch in paramount since much of the piece is full of harmonic "filler" which runs like vines with and around the melodies and counter melodies changing hands, changing moods, and disappearing and reappearing in different areas of the keyboard.

Rachmaninoff was quite at home using the entire keyboard!

I really don't think the concertos CAN be played heavily up to tempo and I think people sometimes think of Rachmaninoff as "heavy".

How many times have you walked by a practice room somewhere and heard students "slugging" it out with Rach like he was Rocky!

Keep up the good work!

[ajspiano]

AJ

I have to laugh -- not at you, but with you!

This piece is such a monster, and I think you're doing well from what I've heard.

I would perhaps say that its difficulty doesn't phase me, but I have a very healthy respect for it. I expect to play it well, but I expect that to take me a very long time to achieve..  Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of practicing 8 hours a day like "the89thkey". I have a non-pianist friend who's been bugging me to learn it since we were about 14-15. I don't think she has even the slightest clue what it means to do so.

I know the Second Concerto and the Paganini Variations though I haven't learned No. 3.

I assume the third is the most difficult although paradoxically Rachmaninoff thought the 2nd was harder and preferred to play the third!

In my scores the 2nd has half as many pages, but the notes within don't look any less demanding. I'll reserve judgement until such time that I have learnt both.. if I choose to do so.

At least for me it is simply exhausting to wade through the jungle of notes that is Rachmaninoff when first trying to learn his works. The melodies are there but literally entwined with the vines and undergrowth of harmonies and dissonances weaving and blooming throughout.

I think this really key, so far I'm feeling that the key difficulty is just the sheer magnitude of the work.. and that it really never lets up on presenting new material even if the themes are similar. Every section has its technical challenges, and while some are no doubt more significant than others that seems kind of trivial comparatively to the idea of the physical and mental stamina required to learn/perform them all as a collective.

But denseness should not imply "heavy", IMHO.

I think lightness and quickness of touch in paramount since much of the piece is full of harmonic "filler" which runs like vines with and around the melodies and counter melodies changing hands, changing moods, and disappearing and reappearing in different areas of the keyboard.

Rachmaninoff was quite at home using the entire keyboard!

I really don't think the concertos CAN be played heavily up to tempo and I think people sometimes think of Rachmaninoff as "heavy".

Maybe it'd be different in a concert hall with a marvelous grand, but on my humble upright (in a small room) anything other than light and you'd overwhelm yourself both physically and aurally. The way its written is perhaps loud harmonically without the notes them selves having to be that way too.

As you said, there is a great deal of harmonic "filler" (don't know if I like the word filler) that has to be played very delicately so as to not drown the melodies.. and once all parts are together (and played quite delicately) the whole instrument is resonating and sending out enough sound to annoy the neighbours 10 houses down (maybe an exaggeration).

Its quite a struggle to balance that against the passion found in the music - ESPECIALLY in the cadenza. It is so firey and it makes you want to play loud and hard, so often where you simply must tone it down or else create a rather giant mess of sound.

How many times have you walked by a practice room somewhere and heard students "slugging" it out with Rach like he was Rocky!

Hahaha, having not spent much (if any) time near a conservatory and having been the only higher grade classical pianist at my highschool I wouldn't know - but I can imagine.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks! and I will do my best.

[ajspiano]

I'm not thrilled about this video, but I said I'd post something so here it is. It lacks some fluency in a few places I think because I am still reading it/internalising the notes (especially the few bars I open with that precede this section that are basically just sight read) - but in saying that, I'm not sure if viewers would be able to tell that for the most part because while its lacks that fluency, my frustration may be more to do with it not matching my intention than being unmusical all together ..I definately feel that I need more fluent motions and to soften up the touch in a few spots.. and work on what I was discussing above.

ho hum.

Its not a lot, I'm not going to post big videos in here because that's not my point - small targeted sections. So this is a ~10 bar excerpt (a bit less than the score segment posted above) - goes for about 1 min - and it comes with a free "G" that isn't in the score.

As anyone who watched the video I posted in the earlier ramble post will see - Valentina Lisitsa is better than me...   

[chopin2015]

Sweet! It sounds legit!

[j_menz]

and it comes with a free "G" that isn't in the score.

Woo hoo 

[ajspiano]

Woo hoo 

It helps to throw in a freebie from time to time to maintain public interest.

[j_menz]

It helps to thrown in a freebie from time to time to maintain public interest.

Just like an encore, except you don't have to miss your bus.

[ajspiano]

Just like an encore, except you don't have to miss your bus.

If I ever play this in concert with a real orchestra "g" will probably be all I have left for an encore.. and in any case I may just end up passed out on the stage, and pick up an ambulance ride afterwards.

[chopin2015]

How do you do this turn? My hands are so small! Whyyyyy

[chopin2015]

Or is it inbetween the chords?

[ajspiano]

How do you do this turn? My hands are so small! Whyyyyy

I would think its between the chords, - similar to the way the turn in chopin prelude no 4 is notated here..



Though the one in your pic is still pretty tricky regardless i would think..

If in doubt consult a few different recordings..

[chopin2015]

Well say if it wasnt inbetween, how what would i have to do then if i cant reach?

[ajspiano]

Well say if it wasnt inbetween, how what would i have to do then if i cant reach?

Assuming its just the top note you're going to ornament, - Let go of the bottom notes and use some fairly virtuoso pedaling skills..  and a fingering that will allow you to get up to the next chord without a big sudden jump I guess.

[chopin2015]

Assuming its just the top note you're going to ornament, - Let go of the bottom notes and use some fairly virtuoso pedaling skills..  and a fingering that will allow you to get up to the next chord without a big sudden jump I guess.

I see! Thank you!

[ajspiano]

Not that this will be happening anytime soon - but I started scouting out some of my string playing contacts today..  to see if I can find an orchestra willing to play with me if I can get it all together...  and I got a positive response from an amateur orchestra back home in Western Australia. Which is freaking exciting.

It would be an absolutely enormous project to put it together with them, and at this stage it may even be totally impossible due to the required rehearsal time and them being 3500kms away. But either way, I'm excited.. I don't have the luxury of MSO on demand.

[chopin2015]

Thats awesome! I want to perform beethoven's emperor concerto, i wouldnt know where to start, but would like to do a reduction orchesta version. A mini orchestra, stage the size of one at a big fancy church, no bigger. Your concerto is crazy though. You need a big orchestra!

[j_menz]

I don't have the luxury of MSO on demand.

Ask them. Elton John, Kiss, John Farnham, Meatloaf. Looks like they'll play with anyone if you ask nicely enough. 

[ajspiano]

Ask them. Elton John, Kiss, John Farnham, Meatloaf. Looks like they'll play with anyone if you ask nicely enough. 

$$$

How much per musician do you reckon? per rehearsal/performance.. 

Edit:
base pay rate is $61,805 per annum
https://www.alliance.org.au/award-summaries/view-document/melbourne-symphony-orchestra-musicians-agreement

and I can't see me selling tickets like Lang Lang...

Thats awesome! I want to perform beethoven's emperor concerto, i wouldnt know where to start, but would like to do a reduction orchesta version. A mini orchestra, stage the size of one at a big fancy church, no bigger. Your concerto is crazy though. You need a big orchestra!

It will probably depend on the recital hall as to how extensive it has to be.. there's 20 parts. Though I'm clearly getting ahead of myself worrying about that kind of thing.

[j_menz]

$$$

How much per musician do you reckon? per rehearsal/performance..   can't see me selling tickets like Lang Lang.

Are they still all actually publice servants?

Anyway, change your stage name to Fred Lang Lang and hope people don't notice. 6pt font is legally legible, so:

Live in Concert

Fred
Lang Lang
with
The
Melbourne Symphony
Orchestra

[ajspiano]

I should probably choose a noted pianist that isn't asian so concert goers can at least think I am that person for a moment before realising its a blatant scam.

[chopin2015]

Or any celebrity name...such as jude law. Yum.

[lostinidlewonder]

I love selling concerts and know all the ins and out of it here in Aus, if you ever need a hand AJ give me a message.

I think selling the Rach concerto for 2 pianos instead of orchestra will yield you a lot more money tho.

[ajspiano]

I love selling concerts and know all the ins and out of it here in Aus, if you ever need a hand AJ give me a message.

Thanks! I may do that eventually..  I don't really consider myself to be a concertising pianist at all.. My performance (and performance promotion) experience lies much more in the contempory field.

I think selling the Rach concerto for 2 pianos instead of orchestra will yield you a lot more money tho.

Thats interesting - why do you think so? ...either way I want to do it with an orchestra if only because I feel like it would be horrible to make all the effort to learn it and never get to play the whole thing.

My home town is Albany, and the orchestra I spoke to is based there - my friend thought they would be up to the challenge buy would have to specially invite some additional players from perth or elsewhere for the horns. I know or kind of know most of the string players in it and they are all very competent so I'd have faith in it working out.

I think if it does eventually go ahead I wouldn't have any trouble filling a hall there.. they don't get a lot of this kind of thing and I'd have the "home grown" thing going for me..  plus david helfgott did a concert there once (anyone whos been to the concert hall would know this, the posters been hanging up for years) .. there's a lot of angles.

That said, I'd definitely be open to doing a 2 pianos thing as well.. if you fancy learning the 2nd part? ...I do come to perth from time to time..   though I wont be happy performing this for ages yet, as I have said above.

[lostinidlewonder]

Thats interesting - why do you think so? ...

If you have an orchestra then the money you make from the event needs to be distributed to the orchestra. Unless you are paying them a fee to play, in that case you will be down more money before you sell tickets and there is a whole lot of issues, some members might be sick or away on the day or whatever and you have to solve those problems. It is just a huge amount of organisation. With 2 pianos all you have to deal with is one other person, it is a lot less chaotic and difficult to manage.

My home town is Albany, and the orchestra I spoke to is based there - my friend thought they would be up to the challenge buy would have to specially invite some additional players from perth or elsewhere for the horns. I know or kind of know most of the string players in it and they are all very competent so I'd have faith in it working out.

Oh what a beautiful place you live in Yes you see organizing all these instrumentalists would make my head spin. I find there is a huge amount to organize just being one pianist hosting a concert, I couldn't imagine how much more difficult it becomes when you then have to manage a whole orchestra. I don't know if I could trust one person managing the orchestra for me, I guess I am a control freak in that respect.

I think if it does eventually go ahead I wouldn't have any trouble filling a hall there..

If this is the case what are you waiting for! I hope you are not doing a free concert because you should be paid plentifully for doing this type of concerto. The hardest part is selling the seats, if you can do that then get crackin! I know playing in the more "outback" towns can draw the entire population to you, Albany must not get that many performers and it is quite a rich town (in terms of average rent paid there) so yes I am sure people would jump at the opportunity to hear some live piano music (and rach 3 for that matter!). But wouldn't rach 3 be a little upperclass for most listeners? Would you want to play a collection of piano solos also?

they don't get a lot of this kind of thing and I'd have the "home grown" thing going for me..  plus david helfgott did a concert there once (anyone whos been to the concert hall would know this, the posters been hanging up for years) .. there's a lot of angles.

Yes I find we aussies have this wonderful "mateship" going on. Whenever someone home grown as you put it performs people will always want to give you a go and support you.

That said, I'd definitely be open to doing a 2 pianos thing as well.. if you fancy learning the 2nd part? ...I do come to perth from time to time..   though I wont be happy performing this for ages yet, as I have said above.

I'm always up for concerting . I'd certainly be happy to play 2nd piano, we could do some other duets together also Let me know how serious your project is and we can get the ball rollin